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Farewell old friend


Dragon Magazine General Discussion


Goodbye Dragon, gone you may be, but you will live on in my book shelves. It was this hallowed publication that kindled an enduring passion for Gaming in me. I may have drifted away from D&D when the editions changed, but you have always been with me. In the Characters your pages spawned, in the heroes you inspired, in the epics you helped me weave, you will be remembered.

Eled.


Eled the Worm Tamer wrote:

Goodbye Dragon, gone you may be, but you will live on in my book shelves. It was this hallowed publication that kindled an enduring passion for Gaming in me. I may have drifted away from D&D when the editions changed, but you have always been with me. In the Characters your pages spawned, in the heroes you inspired, in the epics you helped me weave, you will be remembered.

Eled.

I am truly saddened by this. I hope WotC come to their senses. An online magazine could never replace what we got from these magazines.

Paizo has done an excellent job with the mags since they took over and I felt quality was on the rise as well.

I am particularly disappointed not to see the conclusion of STAP. Also, the Campaign Classics issues will be particularly missed... :(

Havard

Osirion

yes fiar well old friend indeed u have saved and made many games and good times for me and many i know u will live on on my shelves and in any game i DM or play in for here after. to all gather friends here let us lift a tost to friends new and old and share in memorys of times shared quests completed and all that we love about this game and none showed that as much as DUNGEON and DRAGON.its been with us a long time fare well old friends.


If the online mag has equal or greater page count of content, is cheaper by at least half and has the same or higher level of quality, I think WotC will do well.

Chances are, however, that at least one if not ALL of those things will not be true of WotC's offerings.

Sad day indeed. This was like a punch in the stomach.


Page count greater? nope. Quality better? lol are you kidding this is coming from WotC! Cheaper? bahahahahaha seriously this is from a money greedy corporation!
This will more than likely fail, but I wish them luck, and hope that they do well. I know I will have nothing to do with it though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber
Håvard wrote:

I am particularly disappointed not to see the conclusion of STAP. Also, the Campaign Classics issues will be particularly missed... :(

Havard

I believe STAP will conclude in the final issue of Dungeon.

And I'm seriously going to miss the Campaign Classics as well.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Ken Marable wrote:


I believe STAP will conclude in the final issue of Dungeon.

You are correct. The Savage Tide Adventure Path has not been affected in any way—that issue has always been slated to contain the final adventure.


NO!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

That is shocking, to say the least, and unexpected.

Long live Dragon mag, and Paizo too! Thanks for the good job, it was a fun trip with you guys.

Joël


Well, I started with Dragon magazine way back with issue 70 or so (and Dungeon since the beginning), and I can't believe it's ending. Now, all associations and ties to old school AD&D, even the faintest by proxy glimmers, has now faded to black.

Pathfinder might do just as well or better than Dragon, but Dragon can never replaced by a hatchling. The Great Wyrm has passed. Time to move on.


Varl wrote:

Well, I started with Dragon magazine way back with issue 70 or so (and Dungeon since the beginning), and I can't believe it's ending. Now, all associations and ties to old school AD&D, even the faintest by proxy glimmers, has now faded to black.

Pathfinder might do just as well or better than Dragon, but Dragon can never replaced by a hatchling. The Great Wyrm has passed. Time to move on.

My first issues were Dragon #81 and Dungeon #1. My first (and only) published adventure was in Dungeon #32. For me, the passing of these two magazines is the end of an era, like the elves leaving Middle-Earth for good. With the excellent stewardship of these magazines under Paizo, I look forward to Pathfinder, but when I walk into my FLGS and see nothing but miniature battles and card games, I can't help but worry for the future of tabletop RPGs. This is a sad day for the hobby that's been with me three-quarters of my life.


Bwaaaah, suckage! How will I subtly broadcast my geekiness and game-ability without a Dragon or Dungeon magazine? What will hang from my bag or lay innocuously on a table for other gamers to notice and feel safe 'coming out'?

(Sorry for the gay analogy, because it's obviously no where near the same thing. But that's sort of what it's like when you are in your 30s and have a real responsible adult job. Like it or not, people look at you differently and treat you with some scorn when they find out you play 'those games.')

Although this is the end of the two big Ds, I have no doubt an independent d20 company will pick up the slack in one form or another.

Questions I hope someone will answer--

1) Will I still be able to buy back issues of Dragon and Dungeon .pdfs on Paizo (or another source)?

2) How do I choose how I'll redeem my 'excess' issues?

So long, Dragon and Dungeon. At least I still have White Dwarf.


Wow. I can't believe this. I only jumped in at #328, but I still can't believe it's getting pulled. And to think, I had material on the waiting list. No wonder none of my later queries were accepted. I'm not optimistic about WotC's e-zine, either. Online PDFs are a pain to use, and I doubt they'll consistently update it. I hope I'm wrong. At least the refunding's decent.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

I am somewhat disappointed that the magazine will be no more. I am a person who hates online reading material, perhaps reminding me too much of work every time I sit at a computer. I like to sit in my lounge chair with my Dungeon and have good old fashioned read. I really dislike printing books and magazines from my home printer.

Do I use a computer for gaming? Yes, when in game mode I do input most of the information and rules into a document to print. This information is usually from the 3.5 SRD and printed maps from the web enhancements.

I am not to comfortable with the online direction that WoC is taking with the Pen and Paper RPG’s, and as I am not a fan of online subscription services it is with a heavy heart that I will be bidding Dungeon and Dragon farewell.

I have a good collection of Dungeon magazines to keep me well stocked into the future. So it is with a big thanks to Paizo for producing the Adventure paths that have occupied my gaming colleagues for months. It was these (AP’s) alone that kept me coming back to Dungeon each month. The production values were of the highest standard. That said, I am certainly keeping an eye on future Paizo products as these may fill the gap when Dungeon and Dragon is no more.


Sad news indeed. I think the last couple years have been both magazines best, in a loooong time. The adventure paths have been great, something no one has come close to. And Dungeon's publishing of the Maure Castle material? They must have read my mind, because that's has been exactly the sort of suff I've always wanted from them. Paizo -- thanks for the great stuff -- and I'll be one of the first to sign up for your new periodical, and commit my $$$ to your success. As for Wizards and the new online content, I wish them the best, but I'm not one of those gamers who gets their material on the net. Niether are the other 12 or so people in our extended gaming group. One wonders where they get this information?

Contributor

My first issue of Dragon was around #64. At the time, as a ten-year-old kid from California I never thought I'd get the opportunity to work on D&D or have my namein the pages of Dragon Magazine. 25 years later, I'm in both (and Dungeon, too!). This is a sad day and I think it's a bad decision on Wizards' part, but I'm looking forward to what the creative people at Paizo are doing with Pathfinder. And I look forward to being a part of it.

(By the way, it would be nice if someday my name on these boards had the word "contributor" after it. ^_^)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Ya gotta find a way to finish Core Beliefs, Sean. Even if we have to establish some sort of Greyhawk underground... like a sub-sub-Canonfire...

Bootlegging Greyhawk articles and mind flayers in connected basements - with a secret entrance in the bowling alley...


I haven't been this disheartened about the gaming industry in a long while. Is there anything we can do to stop this? Anything? What happened? Were the magazines losing money? I am really sad right now.

Galen


It is with great shock and sadness I hear the news.

My first issue was #42, and I've been hooked ever since (only missing issues during the introduction of 3e and I've now bought most of those back issues).

I wish the Paizo staff all the best and look forward to Pathfinder, but it is truly the end of an era. Gaming will not quite be the same for me without the two magazines I grew to love.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I can only agree, and with zeal! These core beliefs articles were among the best I have seen in a long time, and, Sean, with all due respect, you _have_ to continue them. Core Beliefs and Demonomicon were some of the main feature I was looking forward to in Dragon. Pelor and Heironeous were especially helpful to me, as my current campaign is set in the Shield Lands, ond one of my PCs ia priest of Pelor. (Well, of course I´m selfish here, but what the hell? The articles were really very good.)

Stefan

Owners: Jason Weymouth & Julian Rodriguez - Emerald Knights Comics and Games

I have purchased and subscribed to both Dragon (issue 45 to current) and Dungeon (issue 1 to current); they adorn my gaming wall in sturdy magazine boxes labeled by year. Recently, I made more shelf room to accommodate the 2007 & 2008 editions of the publications. What a great time I had collecting, reading, carting around, using, laughing at the comics, and just admiring these valued tomes. On many occasions many of them found their way into my briefcase, my business colleges astonished that a man of my age (45) continues to dabble in what they consider a childish game, fools they be.

I will sincerely miss seeing these shrink-wrapped friends arrive, truly an end of an era. However, I remain truly optimistic and foresee the day when these beloved magazines resurface back into the capable and creative hands of the wonderful Paizo staff.

For the time being, Pathfinder and all of Paizo's valued products shall line my shelves. As for WOTC, let us hope that they discover that we gamers truly love these publications - I only hope their decision will generate a product that can capture much of the excellence we have seen in the last five years.

Continued good gaming, I too share in your grief.


Wow!

Shock, anger, acceptance... excitement!

Still a little shocked, but the anger faded as quickly as it appeared. I'm very excited about this!

I think that this is a great opportunity for Paizo to create their own property and not have to worry about a license. Hell, there's already been mention of a new setting. What would it take to see Paizo do rulebooks and the like too?

As a consumer, I would love to see more than just adventures. Pathfinder sounds quite lovely, but I fear it is more Dungeon than Dragon. With regard to RPGs, I would love to see Paizo develop more than just adventures and "utilities" (i.e. the crit-hit deck); though I find these wonderful, they may not satisfy my Dragon-lust for long. Let's see Paizo publish their own line of rulebooks such as Lords of Madness, Player's Handbook 2, and the Book of Nine Swords! :)

As an aspiring writer, I hope there remains an outlet for submissions. That's the part of me that's the most disappointed. :(

In short, yay Paizo! Congratulations! I can't wait to see Pathfinder. You'll have my subscription right after dinner. ;D


I still have the original deck of many things, and although in sad state, I still have the first The Dragon magazine. I couldn't believe my eyes when I got an email letting me know that my subscription would be ending all too soon. At first, I thought it was a bad, albeit late, April Fool's, joke. Now I've sent e-mails to Wizard's (BOOOOO!!!) and Paizo. Paizo may not have always been my cup of tea, but I still think they did a very good job. Kudos for the great magazine pulled way too soon. Send e-mails to Wizard's expressing your dissapproval, it couldn't hurt. But like it was said before, they are money grubbing, and you know any e-zine they make is going to be a cheap knock off of the original. They will give us less bang for as much of our bucks as they can. Good luck with Pathfinder, wish all the faithful the best.


I feel like my best friend just died.

I can't tell you how much this hurts.


did not see this coming, i mean it was a single issue of dragon picked up in ignorance that led me to buying so many dnd products and put me down the path of gaming. I'm sure you guys did everything you could, nontheless i am still quite dissappointed... I bid you a fond farwell...


My first issue was Dragon #60 (with the Jester) and I've collected and loved both Dragon and Dungeon every since. It's hard to believe that this is happening given the great quality of these magazines over the last few of years.
I no longer have any respect for WOTC and feel more than a bit betrayed by them. Each month I looked forward to both magazines and now that little joy has been snatched from us.
WOTC for all you do this middle finger is for you.


Amen to that sentiment.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Guess what? This isn't me going through the anger stage... this is an eternal seething desire to rend. When the current owners of such a proud tradition dump on it like this...

Things were going so well. For me Paizo's reign became something of a renaissance for the game.

Without Dungeon and Dragon as a magazine I can hold I'm afraid I'm done being a consumer sucker for a company that doesn't care. I've always been loyal, and used my spare cash to pick up a wealth of harcover rules options I don't even need. Now I say, loyal to whom and why? I would have preferred an unwanted 4th edition over this. I spend many hundreds each year on this... stuff! Let's see how they like losing the thousands I would have spent. It's smooth moves like this Wizards that demonstrate to your fanbase that you're trying to starve them off by giving them less for more, seeing how long you can keep a bad strategy going while remaining in the black. And to think this was the year I was going to go to my first Gen Con.

What's their next announcement, "D&D will now be called E&E and you'll play it with fingerpuppets and improvised scripts... the rules are... there ARE no rules! Either that or it's just gonna be a card game, folks. Forty bucks please."

Contributor

Troy Taylor wrote:

I feel like my best friend just died.

I can't tell you how much this hurts.

Yep, this sums it up well. I'm an odd mixture of shock and fury right now.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Derek Winston wrote:

1) Will I still be able to buy back issues of Dragon and Dungeon .pdfs on Paizo (or another source)?

2) How do I choose how I'll redeem my 'excess' issues?

1) Yes.

2) Head on over to http://paizo.com/transition.


I can't believe it. What a sad day this is.


Okay, I understand the emotion on this site and just about every other D&D related site (this is the most together I've seen D&D geekdom in a long time), but I have to do the obligatory disclaimer here. Corporations exist to make money. That WOTC wants to make money is neither strange nor evil. Paizo isn't a charity organization itself, and I'd be willing to bet that they would like to turn a nice big profit from their endevors. And its not just so someone can get rich, buy a big house, and drive a nice car, but so that all the entry level guys can afford to buy groceries as well.

That having been said, I think that at the very least the manner in which this was announced, especially in directly conjoining the online subscription service to the demise of Paizo's tenure as stewards of Dungeon and Dragon Magazine, was a very bad start for this endevor, and may have generated enough ill will that they may have scuttled their own project before it even gets off the ground.

And just to prove that I can take shots at "the Man" as well, I'd look a little higher than WOTC. They are a game company that likes to put out games. Hasbro is a corporation that likes to collect money from subsidiaries and is likely to ask why all of its other divisions are making a profit margin of X when WOTC is only making a profit margin of .5(X) . . .

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Anyone find it funny that Paizo aligns with Necromancer and then Dragon and Dungeon die?

Seriously My first remembered dragon was in the 50's and I craddle my CDs like an infant child. Heck the magazine's almost as old as I am...

*checks pulse to make sure* Ah, good.


Though I buy individual copies of Dragon and am not a subscriber, I'm sad to see it go.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:
Okay, I understand the emotion on this site and just about every other D&D related site (this is the most together I've seen D&D geekdom in a long time), but I have to do the obligatory disclaimer here. Corporations exist to make money. That WOTC wants to make money is neither strange nor evil.

Corporations do exist to make money, but this isn't widgets... it's a scene that does it for the love, even the contributors. They are going to lose money by underestimating the impact of this move. My prediction, a lot of money.


Oh, I know that, and I wasn't saying that anything they do is okay as long as they make money. Part of what I wanted to express is that every company needs to make money to keep functioning, and part of what I wanted to do is to point out that the buck doesn't stop with WOTC . . . they have a parent company that may be making demands or putting pressure on that we don't see here. I just don't want to see the wrong people getting beat up over this.


I would always go by the bookstore and buy the newest Dungeon and Dragon.
I will not deal with downloads. I like a product that is real, and tangible, and done. Not something I have to print out and collate myself.
I have been with Dragon for far longer than I ever would have guessed... My first issue was #32. I'm going to miss it.


Wow. Just... wow.

I haven't been collecting Dragon as long as many, but it's been a while now. And I've subscribed for several years now, even though I haven't actually played in years. Dragon was enough to keep me interested, if not playing (but that's due to a lack of players here).

And like others, I won't be even looking into WotC's online stuff. If I'm online, I'm gonna be gaming. I want my Dragon for times when I'm away from the computer, doing something else entirely.

At this point, I'm not even really angry, just really disappointed with WotC. Though I have no doubt I'll be angry later on. Bah, humbug.

Andoran

Well that was sudden. A shame. I started playing D&D when the 3.0 core books came out, and started picking up dragon issues shortly thereafter to get more material during the days when it was scarce. Since then, I've scarcely missed an issue, and for the last few years, I've subscribed. I appreciate that Paizo is so willing to offer credit in so many ways, but what I really want is for dragon to keep showing up in my mailbox. I suppose I'll give pathfinder a try, but this is still very disappointing.


"Open Game License"

Give Paizo some time and some credit, something by another name will fill the void. Paizo have the skill, knowledge and experience to provide the same quality of service under another name...check out the new Pathfinder (that's what I plan to do) and have a little trust. It is sad that WotC have parted ways with Paizo, but if it didn't say official D&D magazine on the front would a Paizo magazine or 96 page monthly book be any less worth your hard earned money?


On Thursday night, approximately 7 hours after the announcement concerning the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, Phil Lacefield Jr., the Sales Manager at Paizo, granted Pulp Gamer an exclusive interview.

Phil talked about the end of an era, the reaction of Paizo customers, and the introduction of Paizo's Pathfinder.

You can listen to the interview at the following link:

http://www.pulpgamer.com/2007/04/20/inside-track-018-phil-lacefield-jr
-of-paizo-publishing/


Sparrow wrote:

I would always go by the bookstore and buy the newest Dungeon and Dragon.

I will not deal with downloads. I like a product that is real, and tangible, and done. Not something I have to print out and collate myself.
I have been with Dragon for far longer than I ever would have guessed... My first issue was #32. I'm going to miss it.

Sparrow, I started with #40. (sigh)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

A very, very sad day for all in this gaming community but in all truth not that surprizing. I beleive that this was the plan of WotC from the beginning, for if Paizo was able to get their mags to gain readership then they could grab some of the current employee's of these mags an re-develop it under there name, but if Dragon and/or Dungeon were to fail, well let the cards fall as they may.

With that said, I will subscribe to Pathfinder for a year, giving them the right they have so earned to keep a part of the pie in which they have worked so diligently to gain. IF this new mag does as well as I believe it will, then at the very least Paizo should start its own campaign world in which we can someday dream in.

So in closing I will shed a tear for History
Then make a sad yet optimistic cheer to the future

P.S. To game is to live


Dragon and Dungeon magazine have both been around for as long as I've been playing D&D and to see them go will mean there will be a empty hole in the D&D landscape :(

It was only last week I picked up 300, 304 & 305 and a bunch of pdf issues. Alas, old issues because the latest incarnation of Dragon has been disappointing (Demonomicon, First Watch and the miserable 344 issue!? (great cover though))

I'm going to miss the great articles but I'll miss the covers the most I think & the outstanding artwork over the years.

End of an era...

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

WTF, I go away for two friggin days, and those wankers at WotC decide to destroy two of the backbones of the gaming industry. I understand that they are a business, and are trying to make money, but now I am definitely considering never purchasing a Wizards product again. To use 2nd edition parlance, I feel like I've just been backstabbed.

What really sucks is this is where we Greyhawk fans got most of our support from. Now who is gonna show the Greyhawk love? I sure doubt it will be the bean counters at hASSbro.


Yeah, it's going to suck for Greyhawk fans, as they will undoubtedly focus on FR and Eberron, if they even ever actually go online with it instead of just talking about it (a la e-Tools, Magic v3 and Star Wars Insider).

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