I've got a friend who despises the thought of using point buy for characters. I mentioned to him that, whenever we get a group again, I think I'd like to try it. He immediately got dispondant. I told him I'd be using 32 point-buy, and that most classes can get by just fine with that and have points left for customization and roleplaying flair (fighters with decent Charisma, for example), but he didn't care. I pointed out that, while it's possible to get higher stats with rolling, how many times had he whipped up a character and the rolls were just "blegh." (This has happened more to me than him, so perhaps I view it as a stronger argument) I point out that there's no ambuguity, no player imbalance regarding ability scores (we had some high rollers in our last group, and they weren't hesitant to remind you of it- it got annoying, particularly for him, so I thought he'd be moved by that; nope); it's also faster.
I think he's afraid of blandness, of cookie-cutter characters. Maybe he just likes the thrill of rolling; I kind of doubt it, since he gets even more despondant when the dice let him down. I really don't like players that are fundamentally unhappy with the way their characters are made. What in the world can I say to convince this guy that point buy is okay? Logic is good, but it hasn't worked thus far. Emotional, flashy examples and reasons are probably better in the end.
Thanks in advance!
I'd just ask him why he's so resistant to point buy, especially 32. Maybe he doesn't like the idea of the show-offs being able to taylor their stats exactly as they please, making it that much easier to create uber-characters?
Point buy is faster for those of us who are gifted with good mathematical sense, but there are a lot of folks who find it difficult. Maybe that's what he doesn't like.
Or maybe he just likes to piss and moan. We all have those players at least once in a while.
TS
I know players like that as well; I tell them to find another game. I wish I could put a positive spin on it, but I can't.
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I happen to like point buy, both as a DM and as a player, but I know there are some players that can't stand one method or the other. Is there any reason why you cannot leave it to the player to decide, where the decision is final regardless of their approach? I use this method in my games, just as I allow the "take average HPs or roll HPs for each level" choice for my players. Some chose to roll, others choose to take the mathematical approach. I am happy either way, and if the player is as well, why not let them do it their way?
Stats are important but they are not what ultimately makes a good character. If the player understands this, and the other players understand this, then there likely will not be any complaints.
Having just switched to using point-buy, I have to say that I like it much more than rolling. It fleshes out the character more, imo. You have to adjust your abilities to suit the character concept, not vise versa.
The feeling I got from your player, Saern, is that he's a powergamer. He's throwing such a fit over using point-buy, and he complains when he rolls low... Nothing else to it.
I'd bet that he's only going to be happy once he sees six 18s on he character sheet...
-Kurocyn
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I suggest you let him roll his stats, and then tell him you will be back-checking his results to see if they come out as above or below 32 points. If they are below (or equal) don't say anything. If they are below, tell him he needs to reduce his stats in a manner he sees fit. It should not be terribly likely to go above 32 points (that is a high number of stat points) so hopefully it won't lead to a confrontation. If it does, well, tell him to get over it. You are the DM - it is up to you, not him. Stats can make a big difference, and the others should not be disadvantaged just because he can't put up with a reasonable request. If he still refuses, well, there is a basic problem with him agreeing to do what the DM wants. That may mean he doesn't get to play in that campaign, which is likely to be more his loss than yours.
That said, there is a fundamental excitement about rolling stats compared with allocating points. I have a player who is resistant, though he accords with my wishes when I have used it. I suggest you sell it to him as an experiment, rather than the "New Way Ahead" - creating just one character using point-buy doesn't really matter if it could be a one-off.
But the advantage of point-buy is, as pointed out above, that you can design the character you want, not what the dice give you. I have used it in the current campaign I am running as I created the starting characters and wanted them to be reasonably equal in power (if you get given a character and think it is crap, that's worse than rolling a crap character up yourself and decided to run with it).
That said, I'm not so sure about the 32 point buy. I used it for these characters, and they are really tough - hardly any deaths (though I have pulled my punches on a few occasions for campaign reasons). 32 points is power game territory (fine for my game, but maybe not so for others) and if your player worries about that, using 32 points might confirm rather than confound his fears.
And, of course, you get loads of characters with "8" stats where they don't need to allocate points, especially to charisma. The higher the point allocation, the higher the key stats tend to get - I would suggest it is unlikely anyone will be going for well-rounded characters, as these choices tend to be sub-optimal. Instead, the characters become super-specialised for their tasks, and there aren't usually any spare points knocking around once everything has been allocated to the key stats. So if power-gaming is a fear, go for a lower allocation.
My $.02- The game I am currently running is the first time I have ever run point by. For some reason (I'm crazy?), I allowed a 36 point buy, and let them go to it. The party is REALLY strong, but balanced against each other. There's not one character that really outshines any others, and knowing they are are cut from the same cloth has encouraged good team work form the get go. No deaths, but a good number of incapacitations, and I can still scare the crap out of them with the proper monster or scenario. I do have to increase the CR by a notch or 2 to keep up, but they also have less gear than usual, so it more or less makes up for it. Just my observations so far :)
That said, there is a fundamental excitement about rolling stats compared with allocating points.
Very true; I'm a victim of that mind-set myself. But you touched upon what, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with point buy: the fact that all fighters end up with 8 Charisma, all clerics have 8 Dex, all wizards have 8 Str, etc. Everyone is forced to select a "dump" stat (or more likely 3), because you know without much doubt they're gonna spend 16 points right off the bat on that all-important key stat 18. That's most of what they've got to allot, using a 22-point buy, and still half of a 32-point buy allotment, so there's really not much left over afterwards. Granted, dump stats get declared for rolled arrays, too, but at least some of them are 5's or 9's or whatever; they're not all 8's. The row of 8's and one 18 starts to get really monotonous after a while, for some reason.
Granted, not every player immediately springs for an 18. But the guy with straight 13's (and two 14s!) quickly gets overshadowed in combat by the wizard with 18 Int, 16 Con, 14 Dex, and the rest 8's. And, let's face it, 3.5e is still very heavily combat-oriented.
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Not sure if this is really for or against, but....
Our group has always rolled for their stats and have enjoyed ourselves. I have recently taken off the DM hat and will be playing for a bit, but have told the other guys that the next campaign I run will be point buy - or something similar.
The stats we have generated through rolling are usually high. I think at least half of the table would have had higher than 32 points if the rolls were broken down like that. Very few characters have had a negative modifier on any ability. We use the "roll four, drop the lowest, re-roll ones" method, and that may have something to do with it. (Have fun statistics-boys.) Luck, I'm certain, plays a part, but never cheating because we all watch each other.
I like what point-buy has to offer in that everyone has the same chance for a good build for the character they want. For the next game I was thinking of letting everyone roll stats, then writing all of them down on one sheet of paper and letting the group vote on which stats they want to use. Then break those stats down to points and let them build away. Sure it could be flawed, but it can't be any worse than one of the players in my last game with nothing below 14.
He's not a powergamer. He does appreciate the math and building strong characters, but he is not a powergamer. He's vocally opposed to powergaming. So that's not the issue.
Also, he's a good friend of mine- I've known him a lot longer than I've been playing D&D. So just booting him isn't really an option; quite frankly, I do value friendship over the game. Not to mention, there's no group to boot him from. We are between groups right now. We both graduated high school last spring, and have had no luck finding another group. The college we attend has a gaming society, but the head of it is an ass who won't help us find a group. I take that back- he threw out a list of people to me that were either really strange or couldn't ever find a suitable schedule to meet up for gaming, so that fell through.
By the same token, the two uber-rollers that were in our high school group are no longer here, just for clarity's sake.
So, this isn't even something I'm enforcing immediately. This is just a notice that, in the future when we have another group, this is what I plan on doing.
I did tell him it would be an experiment (he was still quite unenthused), and that I may choose to go back to rolling, but I actually want to play a decent-length campaign with point buy to try it out. I asked him if he'd at least try it with an open mind, but his response was "I have," said in a depressed voice. He hasn't.
A little over a year ago, the idea came up between Sexi Golem and I to try it out, but he got caught up on the cookie-cutter syndrome (which I have some problems with myself), and the two uber-rollers noticed that it was slightly less powerful, and I'm not completely sure what this guy's issue with it was. So, it never even got off the ground.
Now, he and I are the types that would rather see a slightly lower core stat in exchange for a more balanced array overall. I would never buy an 18 with point buy- I'd take a 17 and wait until 4th level to bump it. I'm pretty sure he's the same way. That's the reason I chose 32 point, so that there would be enough points left over to spread around and diversify a character somewhat.
Now, this is coming from rolling 4d6, dropping the lowest, and rerolling all 1s. So, yes, it might be a small step-down in power. However, we also have a long-running tradition of sympathetic DM review. The DM looks at the rolls, and if they're too low, the usually end up getting rerolled. This guy often plays clerics and such, so he wants a positive modifier in everything. He can't stand a 9 or less in Dex, because no matter what, it hurts your AC (by a whopping 1 point; but, he really likes high AC characters); he'd like to have at least a 12, no matter what, so he can maximize his use with full-plate.
He wants at least a +2 Strength so he can fight effectively with a cleric. He wants a 17 or 18 Wisdom so his spells will be powerful. He wants at least a +2 Charisma for turning. He doesn't want a penalty to Intelligence because it's just hard to envision a dumb cleric and he doesn't want to play one. He wants a +2 to Con for survivability. That takes care of all the stats, I think.
It sounds like power-gaming, but really, I think it's just a desire for a heroic character. He had a warlock (rolled) with 18 Charisma, 14 Wisdom, and 7 Intelligence, and just couldn't get into it because of that low stat.
The way he goes into a funk over these things is just really hard to cope with. Since all my players have always been close friends, I typically have a hard time saying "no" when it comes to their desire to have powerful characters- after all, I realize that everyone wants to play a hero, not just farmer-joe with a sword.
I, on the other hand, don't mind a low stat. It adds to character definition; it's something to get buy, to cope with and overcome. I also like point buy because every modifier is important, not just a fun little extra on the side. Race choices REALLY matter; that +2 was always seen as a way to boost a 17 or 18 to 19 or 20 before. If you didn't have at least one stat that high, or a cadre of 16s and 17s to make up for it, you got odd looks from the two uber-rollers, like "WTF is wrong with you?" But with point buy, if you decide you can reduce that 17 to a 16 in order to put a 12 in another stat- for some reason, that's appealing to me. When I do that, I've made that character, I've chosen what he will be like; he's the character I want, and each of those positive modifiers is something to be proud of, and the minuses are part of who this character is.
I think he likes rolling for the excitement, the possibility that you'll have enough high rolls to make a strong, tougher, and charismatic fighter, or a wizard with an amazing Dexterity score.
For me, rolling is a long, boring, and disappointing process. I've rolled six sets in a row before, and the DM said "scrap it" to each one, they were so low. Finally, I would roll one that was juuuust good enough for acceptability into our party, and would stick with it, but always to be outshone by the uber-rollers. To tell the truth, most of those sets were what typical parties would consider "normal," but they just didn't fit in our campaigns. So, for me, point buy is a way to ensure everyone is on the same footing, will really appreciate the stats they've got, and won't totally blow through every challenge in the campaign or require a massive DM/player arms-race to try and restore balance. It also guarantees that you have something to work with for your character- you will have enough material to make a viable, enjoyable character, instead of relying on fickle dice.
But, I'm also the kind of person that gets nostalgic for the low levels and will start a new character on Morrowind or Oblivion just so I can be roughing it out at level two once more. I realize most people aren't like that.
All right, time to wrap up this ramble. I want to do this for myself because I prefer point buy, and because I want to reel in the power level of the game and make all players equal to each other. At the same time, I want to remain open minded and see what I think after running a campaign of it, and I want him to get exposed to that as well and see if his mind changes.
I'll be running a solo game with this player over the summer. He's rolled up an amazing array of stats for a gestalt elven fighter/rogue. At the same time, I plan on providing an ocassional DMNPC paladin for support, generated using 32 point buy. We'll see how it goes and what happens.
And by all means, continue discussing!
I too have thought over the idea of going to point buy. Now, when I was first introduced to it I rebelled. I was going to build a rogue/cleric of Ollidamra with the invisible blade PrC. I was looking for high Dex, since I will wear no armor, high Chr, for bluffing in combat, and Int for skills and AC from the Prc and of course Wis for the cleric side. Now, with point buy you can't have multiple high stats. Never got to find out if it would work the group broke up a little after 4th level I think.
I have been a dice roller for stats for 11 years. Recently here I have added a new person to the group and he is what some would call a power gamer. He is a warmage aasimar that had a 20 Chr at 1st level and had a high Int also. He is now 11th level, has a cloak of charisma +4 now has a score of 26. It has reached the point in the game that he just blasts everything in two rounds and its done. Sure some of it is the inexperienced DM not using appropriate encounters. The other is that with dice rolling allowed him to come off as near god like.
I don't think the CR where made considering a party of four character with base 18's in the primary attribute and probably 16's in one or two other key stats. I think the CRs where set in mind to the elite array for the party or something.
Guess I didn't really make a point at all was more of a rant. Next time I DM I think I will do Point buy so there is no funny rolls at my table which seems to be a trend. Think its time to find a new group. Rant rant rant rant....
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To be honest, he does sound like a bit of a power-gamer. I should know. A deep interest in the stats as opposed to, or in addition to, the back-story is pretty indicative. His main concern is that his character may not be powerful enough. Point-but actually mkes a powerful character pretty guaranteed, but he wants just that little bit more....
As he is a good mate, frankly I wouldn't worry about it. Point-buy is simply an abstraction of rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest anyway, so I am led to believe by the DMG (but haven't bothered to try and validate) so it probably doesn't really matter. The game is most important, not the stat rolling convention.
I want to try point buy, since I've had the experience of having two characters in the group with decent/good stats and one character with crummy stats and it was really no fun for the guy with crummy stats; at least, in combat. He did end up having a lot of fun in roleplaying encounters, though. I tried to broach the subject to my players, but they vehemently wanted to roll up stats. I can understand not wanting to be a cookie cutter character, but I would like to see one game where everyone is just about equal in terms of combat viability.
Maybe there's a way to randomly add/drop points from certain stats? Maybe allow a player to choose one "untouchable" stat and then roll a d6 twice to switch two stats to make something a bit unusual? The stat they really want high winds up staying where it is, but maybe they end up with something unexpected. If they really have to have two stats where they want them, you could use a d4 instead.
It's kind of funny that your player that knows EXACTLY what kind of stats he wants, in what order, optimized for what class he wants is so resistant to point buy, which is the easiest method to get just that. Cookie cutter? It's the pot calling the kettle black! (And I say that in the friendliest way possible.)
Honestly, this guy sounds like he just likes the sound of his own whiny voice. You say he likes to have a bonus in every stat, but would prefer to roll rather than use a 32 point buy. That's just rediculous.
An option for those who enjoy rolling, but also appreciate equality: Have each player roll normally. Now, have each player choose which set of stats they want to use. It's okay for everyone to use the same set.
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Hmmm he kinda sounds like a power-gamer. The only reason I dont like standard point-buy is the cookie-cutter factor, but the stats arent the only thing that can produce cookie-cutter PC's(feats, placing skill points in the same stats, ect also do this). I like the flavor of rolling cuz people in the world are not alike, but it can produce problems when you roll, such as uber-stat PC's. I have taken the approach of a 75 point buy (starting from zero-which is basically the elite array + three points). I used to allow the guys to roll, but I did 4d6 no rerolls and if they didnt like what they got they can do a 32 point buy instead.
He and I both do share an interest in mechanics and builds, of course, but trust me, he's not a power-gamer. Not that it matters that much what anyone wants to classify him as. He just wants a nice, heroic base for his character. It's as much about his mental image of the PC as it is about the mechanics.
One thing I've realized just a few hours ago is that part of the problem is overemphasis on certain stats. Constitution, for example. In our old group, there was nearly a universal obsession with making sure Constitution was as good as it could be. If you had a 12 in the score, that was "low." 14 was average. Putting an 11 or less in it was unthinkable! What in the world would your character do without that bonus to hp rolls?!
Meh. Some characters have more hp than others; this happens by the very nature of Hit Dice. Sometimes characters can't take as many hits as another- considering "death's door" (-1 to -9 hp), I doubt it will actually result in that many more deaths if the characters have a 9 or a 16 in Constitution. It really just amounts to a difference in play styles and the player's views of the characters.
The same over importance got put on Dexterity- you have to have at least a 10 in there! What would you ever do if you had a constant, irreversable penalty to AC? And really, of course, it should be a 12, so you always have that +1 and can use full-plate to maximum effect, if your class has the proficiency.
One thing will be to get him to realize that it's okay if your PC has just a 10 in Con, or even a penalty! Same with Dex, and other "non-key" stats.
There's still a lot of subconscious influence floating around from those two vocal power-gamers that we had in our first group, I think.
Point buy is terrible for three reasons:
1) All characters are cookie cutter images of one another. There are no intelligent or charismatic fighters and no strong wizards. Ever. If you want to role-play a fighter who also happens to know stuff it's too bad. Point-buy means that you have to choose between character and effectiveness. It seems inherently stupid to me to suggest that just because someone is strong and trains with weapons that they can't also be smart, wise, and charming.
2) Some classes can work well off one high stat, but others need more than one to work well. A Rogue can work with a great Dex and average to high-average everything else, but a Monk needs Dex, Str, and Wis to work really well. A Cleric needs Str, Wis, and Cha to be maximally useful.
3) When we tried point buy it turned into a seething pit of angry and frustrated players when we realized that all of our characters were in no way heroic. In fact, they were much like the average person off the street or a stereotype. Ooooh, dumb jock, weak nerd. What roleplaying fun! Heroic characters should FEEL heroic; someone with all 13s and 14s should be taking levels in COMMONER.
When I DM, I use 12+1d6, 12+1d6, 6+2d6, 6+2d6, 3d6, and 3d6. It seems high, but you end up being able to guarantee that you have two high stats to work off, two solid supplementary stats, and two stats that will likely run average. It's very difficult to have any classes made impossible, but you still get some sixes and sevens thrown in. 3d6 is a harsh mistress.
I like to give all players the same scores. 18,16,14,12,10,8. No need to roll or add points. I know the scores are high, but I like to have heroic characters. I miss the days of rolling characters with pale blue dice, but this way seems fair to me. NPCs get the same deal.
Oh. I give max hp to P.Cs too.
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I find it funny that a lot of the posters argue that point buy creates cookie cutter characters. Maybe I've been playing point buy for too long to remember if my characters are always the same. What I would suggest to get him to like point buy is to have him create a character with 32 point buy and level him to 20th, compare this to a rolled character at 20th level and you'll begin to notice very little difference in the important areas for a character. I'll admit, fewer players are willing to play a character with M.A.D. with point buy than with rolling, but other than that I've found its just as fun and a lot faster and balanced (for the DM and fellow players) for everyone to use point buy. (My group of course uses 32 pt. buy but I have played with 28 in the past.)
I find it funny that a lot of the posters argue that point buy creates cookie cutter characters. ..... but other than that I've found its just as fun and a lot faster and balanced (for the DM and fellow players) for everyone to use point buy.
I couldn't agree more.
The operative word here is "balanced". Exactly how high does your strength and intelligence need to be to be heroic?
What in the world would your character do without that bonus to hp rolls?!
Die.... we ran pretty combat intensive games pal. That and we both had an obssesion with forcing fort saves now that I think about it. Poisons, diseases, gouls, morhges, death attacks ahhh, good times.
Die.... we ran pretty combat intensive games pal. That and we both had an obssesion with forcing fort saves now that I think about it. Poisons, diseases, gouls, morhges, death attacks ahhh, good times.What in the world would your character do without that bonus to hp rolls?!
Ya... I was kinda heavy on the undead-nastiness-bringing. =/
But, I've been thinking about that cookie cutter issue, myself. To be honest, I don't think it makes that big of a difference whether one uses point buy or rolls, as was mentioned above.
Think about it. Take an argument like "With point buy, there's no chance of a paladin or cleric with a high Dex!" Well, there isn't with rolling, either, unless your lowest score is a 12 (or you're playing an archer cleric, but it's really irrelevant since the ability in question just changes names).
As a paladin, Strength and Charisma get your best stats, followed by Constitution. Wisdom gets the next one, and most people I've known don't like the thought of a retarded paladin, so Intelligence would come afterwards, leaving Dexterity at the bottom of the stack. For a cleric, Wisdom comes first, followed by Charisma/Strength, depending on whether you prefer melee combat or turning. Afterwards, Constitution, followed by Intelligence for largely the same reason as the paladin (dumbass clerics just don't seem right to most people), leaving Dexterity at the bottom of the list again.
Now, with rolling, that low stat could be a 12, and all your abilities are really awesome. More likely, however, that ability will be around an 8, and it could well be in the 5 to 7 range. Also, you've no guarantee that your high score is going to be more than a 15 for a spellcaster.
Now, with point buy, some classes may need to spread their points so much that they do end up with a 15 as the high score, but such characters are typically quite versatile and can stand to be a sort of "jack of all trades" to some extent. The fact that they "need" a variety of high stats is proof that they have a wide array of abilities to call on. Even in cases such as monks and rogues, you can choose to spread your points, or you can concentrate them and focus on some class options over others.
Also, the lowest you're going to go with point buy is an 8. Unless, of course, you choose a race which gets a penalty to a stat, and you put no points into it. Then it could be a 6. However, that's really not as much of a factor as one would initially think. The fact that you put no points into it means that you're choosing to use it as a dump stat (something that exists with both rolling and point buy), so it really won't affect you any more than if it was an 8, or probably even a 10 or 11.
I mean, if you're a dwarf fighter with 10 Charisma, how many Diplomacy checks are you going to be making? Would it really be any less if that score was an 8? Or a 6? All that ammounts to is the intensity with which you roleplay a certain deficit. Again, I personally find this to add depth to a character and think it's fun.
Now, you can blow all your points to get that precious 18, and if that's your desire, so be it. However, I and my friend are certainly the types that would pull back, go for a 17 and bump it at 4th level, and make a more balanced character. Actually, I'd be of the dispotition to pull back that high score to a 16 and wait until 8th level to get that modifier increase, and that should leave me with enough bonus points to add a little flair to my character.
So, I really don't see how 32 point buy is so terrible and cookie cutter. Certainly 28 and deffinitely 25 tend to produce such things, but 32 is pretty generous.
However, I do think that I will make it player's choice. You can take 4d6, drop the lowest, roll 6 times, as per the PHB, or you can take 32 point buy.
My question would be this: What if a player (not necessarily the one in quetion; this is a hypothetical question to determine policy) chooses to roll and comes off unsatisfied? Should I let him have one more chance? I don't like that so much. Should I let the player then go to point buy? Seems like all I do there is encourage you to try and roll higher than point buy, but if you don't, you can always fall back to good ole' 32 points.
Should I just say tough luck? Or, should I let them use 28 point buy? The 32 won't be their safety net, but if they choose to roll and loose out, then they at least have some guarantee on their characters abilities.
What are your thoughts, on anything in the overlong post above?
With point-buy all the players are on an even level with each other and it makes the game more balanced. I personally don't have a preferance because I feel that rolling is generally balanced enough and in real life not all people seem to have abilities on the same level (looking at myself and my friends, some of them seem to have been built with 32 points while I appear to be made of 25 or so). Plus, rolling the dice is fun. I like the idea of rolling the dice and then modifying the results, I might use that in the future.
Point buying huh? No dice rolling for stats huh? I don't like it, sounds odd. How can it be roleplaying if you don't roll the dice?
I think roleplaying is getting away from it's roots. You need to roll the dice. Dice rolling is what roleplaying is about. Point buying, dice less roleplaying it's so non traditional. I don't like it and I am making a stand. Rolling for stats is the ONLY way to build a character. It is good enough for 1st edition and it is still good enough for 3.5 edition. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
No argument here for point buying, its just plain wrong.
You take the dice out of the game, it is no longer a game. I'm a gamer I want to game. Might as well be a collabrative writer and write high adventure fantasy novels. I mean really who wants to be a fantasy writer?
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Should I just say tough luck? Or, should I let them use 28 point buy? The 32 won't be their safety net, but if they choose to roll and loose out, then they at least have some guarantee on their characters abilities.
While I'd be tempted to say tough luck*, I'd probably let him take point buy at some lower number as a safety net. (I would definitely disallow a reroll.) FWIW, I think I prefer odd numbers for the point totals, to reduce the "all even stats" thing. 29 points seems a reasonable number to me, but 28 or 25 or even 30 could also work just fine.
* I'd also be tempted to let him roll 3d6 per stat, in order. After all, it's the randomness, not the stats -- if you listen to most people who swear by rolling. 8-)
Point buying huh? No dice rolling for stats huh? I don't like it, sounds odd. How can it be roleplaying if you don't roll the dice?
Until I read this post, there was only one way I could justify rolling PCs abilities: People are NOT created equally in real life, so why should fantasy be any different.
With your post, now there are two compelling arguments to rolling stats. But I still would not allow it. Why? Because in my experience, players will abuse it.
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I prefer point buy because I've been in games where rolling dice has led to VASTLY disparate power levels in the game. Sure you get all smug and happy when your lowest score is 14 and you've got 2 18s but what about the poor sap across the table whose HIGHEST score is 14 and he's got 2 8s? Sure, your DM might ask one of you or the other (or even both) to reroll in order to balance the playing field... but if you're going to do that anyway, why not just start out with a balanced system: Point Buy!
I'll admit that having a set number of points can lead to a very stale-feeling character, so why don't you try what we do occassionally? It's a variant of the point buy system. Take whatever power level you've decided on (we almost always use 32 points), subtract four, and add 1d6. Therefore, you end up with 28 + 1d6 points. This allows some variation without completely hamstringing people. At best, you'll end up with a 34 point spread and at the worst it'll be 29 points. If you want, you can even allow ones to be rerolled (making the possible range 30-34 or simply do 1d4+1 (making it 30-33). There's very little variation but there is still SOME variation. This way, the characters are all more or less 'even' and nobody really has any room to complain. There's a little bit of flex room and people get the thrill of rolling. Seems to me like it would make everybody happy.
I like Fatespinners option, it is a good go-between for all my players
There was another proposed method for "randomized point buy" that gives every character the same power base but distributes it differently. I think it was Fake Healer who originally suggested it, but I may be wrong.
In brief, you roll as many d6s as you have points, and group the results together. Thus, if you have 32 point buy and roll five of 1 through 4 and six 5s and 6s, your ability array will consist of four 13s and two 14s. If you manage to roll sixteen 1s, you'll have an 18 somewhere. I believe that excess rolls that fall short of the minimum for the next point are rerolled -- for example, if you roll fifteen 1s you'll have to reroll two of them because the jump from a 17 to an 18 requires three points.
If you're up for something more complex, there's always the card reading method that was laid out in one issue of Dragon -- it's intended for use with the Three Dragon Ante cards, but included suggested equivalents for standard playing cards. That one takes longer but gives you a similar element of randomness and also gives you something to build your character off of it you want to explain why he has such and thus for his abilities.
Point buy is terrible for three reasons...
1) All characters are cookie cutter images of one another...
Yeah, maybe if all you do is make stereotypical fighters, wizards, etc...
Not all fighters NEED a high strength... not all casters NEED a high int/char/wis... The only cookie cutting done here is by those who can't think up something "new" for their character.
2) Some classes can work well off one high stat, but others need more than one to work well...
See above...
3) When we tried point buy it turned into a seething pit of angry and frustrated players when we realized that all of our characters were in no way heroic. In fact, they were much like the average person off the street or a stereotype. Ooooh, dumb jock, weak nerd. What roleplaying fun! Heroic characters should FEEL heroic; someone with all 13s and 14s should be taking levels in COMMONER.
Commoner? For all 13s and 14s? A commoner would be all 10s... or lower... 10 is average. 12 is ABOVE average... 14 is AMAZING... any higher they'd likely come across as superhuman... Why do people think that they NEED such high stats?
-Kurocyn
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He and I both do share an interest in mechanics and builds, of course, but trust me, he's not a power-gamer. Not that it matters that much what anyone wants to classify him as. He just wants a nice, heroic base for his character. It's as much about his mental image of the PC as it is about the mechanics.
I think the problem is that the image of the character in his mind appears to have 18 in every stat - which really does bring him back to being a power-gamer (after all, speaking as someone with power-gamer tendencies, I don't look at a character sheet and see a row of numbers, I see the powerful character I want to create - I dunno, Horx the Mute, the half-orc fighter with Two weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and all the stat requirements that would make that a good combination). But the labels aren't the issue, but balancing his character with those in the rest of the party.
Re your question, I would be inclined to let him roll, and if he is unhappy, he can instead have 32 point-buy instead. But only if you think he will walk if you don't let him roll and really want him in your game. I personally think he is being selfish, and accommodating him like this is doing a disservice to the other players using point-buy. You are experimenting - why can't he just get with the programme? If you never experiment, you never learn.
As an aside, I think the cookie-cutter argument is slightly bogus for another reason - that it displays a certain lack of imagination. For example, using point buy, I created a pretty decent elven archer druid (no multiclassing - druid all the way) which is completely different from the "standard" druid set out in the DMG NPC stat section. We tend to use point-buy and none of my characters are the same, because I don't want to create the same character over and again, I want to have fun with different concepts. I don't think point-buy v rolling has anything to do with this.
Point buying huh? No dice rolling for stats huh? I don't like it, sounds odd. How can it be roleplaying if you don't roll the dice?
I think roleplaying is getting away from it's roots. You need to roll the dice. Dice rolling is what roleplaying is about. Point buying, dice less roleplaying it's so non traditional. I don't like it and I am making a stand. Rolling for stats is the ONLY way to build a character. It is good enough for 1st edition and it is still good enough for 3.5 edition. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
No argument here for point buying, its just plain wrong.
You take the dice out of the game, it is no longer a game. I'm a gamer I want to game. Might as well be a collabrative writer and write high adventure fantasy novels. I mean really who wants to be a fantasy writer?
I'm sorry, but where is it writen that a game MUST have dice? Do you roll die for football or hide-n-seek?
Are you talking about roll-playing or role-playing? Because, when you roleplay, you actually don't really NEED that many die rolls. Maybe one or two for the occasional bluff/diplomacy/or sense motive check, but unless you roll to determine each word that your character says, I'm not getting it...
Not that I have anything against rolling for stats, I'm just willing to build a character (via rolling or point-buy), not just 6 numbers on a sheet of paper that kicks in a door and swings a sword.
-Kurocyn
Post Scriptum - And not that's it's really the topic here, but I would want to be a fantasy writer.
Commoner? For all 13s and 14s? A commoner would be all 10s... or lower... 10 is average. 12 is ABOVE average... 14 is AMAZING... any higher they'd likely come across as superhuman... Why do people think that they NEED such high stats?
Survivability. 14s are not amazing. 14 means that you can be an above average guy in your moderately-sized city. No one with all 14s would become an adventurer because they will probably die.
Point buy sucks because it means that your acrobat can only be a genius if he's also not strong, healthy, wise, or charismatic. Acrobats tend to be VERY strong and healthy, so to have realistic physical abilities the character now can't be smart. Yay creativity!
I mean really who wants to be a fantasy writer?
Me. Seriously.
Commoner? For all 13s and 14s? A commoner would be all 10s... or lower... 10 is average. 12 is ABOVE average... 14 is AMAZING... any higher they'd likely come across as superhuman... Why do people think that they NEED such high stats?
Survivability. 14s are not amazing. 14 means that you can be an above average guy in your moderately-sized city. No one with all 14s would become an adventurer because they will probably die.
Point buy sucks because it means that your acrobat can only be a genius if he's also not strong, healthy, wise, or charismatic. Acrobats tend to be VERY strong and healthy, so to have realistic physical abilities the character now can't be smart. Yay creativity!
And what exactly are your odds of getting all these high stats you need with rolling? If you end up rolling low, do you just not play that acrobat character that you desire so much? Seems like you'd be waiting a long time to play what you really wanted to, and that doesn't seem like much fun to me. Or, if you rolled low, would you compromise and play the character to the best of your ability? Seems more fun, to me, to choose that option, in which case point buy stands as a valid system.
Or, do you just keep rerolling until you get the stats you need? In this case, why not do as Fatespinner suggested- since you're going to effectively "take 20" on character creation, why not save time and start with an array of points that lets you build the character you want? Granted, this might not let you have a PC with an 18, three 16s, a 14, and a 12, but I don't know many DMs who would just hand out an array like that because the players asked for it (and I wouldn't really want to, since I would doubt his commitment to providing a fair, balanced, and challenging game).
I haven't kept a log of all my character's ability score arrays, but it seems that I've played one in the past with a 15 as the high score. Of course I wished I had better when I generated the character (mainly because everyone else had at least one 17), but I got over it and had fun with the character. I've also played several characters with abilities in the 5 or less range. One was a half-orc barbarian with 5 Int that was a blast to play (until his brutal but heroic death- to bad he kept wandering off and the rest of the party didn't know how truly heroic it was!).
And to Aubrey- he'll go along with point buy, but he'll just mope all the way. He wouldn't walk.
If you end up rolling low, do you just not play that acrobat character that you desire so much?
Granted, this might not let you have a PC with an 18, three 16s, a 14, and a 12, but I don't know many DMs who would just hand out an array like that because the players asked for it (and I wouldn't really want to, since I would doubt his commitment to providing a fair, balanced, and challenging game).
1) Pretty much. You make do with what you have. Not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up. In my experience, a few bad stats can make for a pretty entertaining kobold. I typically roll the dice and then craft a concept around what I have; I don't come to the table with an idea and force my stats around it.
2) Everything in the game scales. If you want to have a whole party with no stat below 16 you can. It's really easy for a DM to simply make encounters a CR or two higher than might be approriate for the level. Higher stats really just means that maybe you skip the kobold stage and head straight for the gnolls.
Not all character classes are equally good, not all feats are equally useful-- why does it follow that the characters themselves should be even?
Point buy is fine to use. I never will, just because as I have said, it makes no sense to me that you cannot, *under any circumstances, no matter how lucky you are*, be smart and fast and strong. Like I said, we tried it and all got annoyed at having characters that felt inferior to their real-life controllers.
I have problems playing in games that require you to adhere to point buys. It produces rather bland characters, especially with the people playing spellcasters who have to concentrate on that one stat for spells. I know it can be argued that you can start with around a 15 and buy the stat up at level ups, but you may run into problems with those spellcasters that need two stats(you know one for save DC and one for actually casting the spell). Unfortunatelly, I have been rolling my stats for as long as I have been playing the game and I usually wind up with a decent array. Besides, in a game where the characters have the possibility to start with three 18's is much more believable if your story is to paint them as "heroes", because what is the definition of a hero other than as someone who is extraordinary in some way.
It produces rather bland characters...
See arguments above. I really feel the "point buy equals bland characters" statement is a myth.
Are the casters really that likely to be different rolling? Not in my experience, and I've played a lot of casters. Casters requiring one ability to cast spells and another to base DCs on are a pretty rare and special case, anyway. Only the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic comes to mind, actually. And it makes one wonder- why do they need two stats? Perhaps the game designers intended such PCs to be somewhat hampered by that.
It produces rather bland characters...See arguments above. I really feel the "point buy equals bland characters" statement is a myth.
Are the casters really that likely to be different rolling? Not in my experience, and I've played a lot of casters. Casters requiring one ability to cast spells and another to base DCs on are a pretty rare and special case, anyway. Only the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic comes to mind, actually. And it makes one wonder- why do they need two stats? Perhaps the game designers intended such PCs to be somewhat hampered by that.
I just say what comes to mind. I can understand all the arguments FOR point buy, I just don't agree with them.
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And it makes one wonder- why do they need two stats? Perhaps the game designers intended such PCs to be somewhat hampered by that.
I have seen some people complain about the power level of the Favored Soul with regard to this. When digging further, it usually turns out that they have nearly God-like stats. I think that the classes that have a number of important stats (monk for instance), it is very important to keep it somewhat balanced. A monk with a high Dex, Wis, and Str is doing a whole lot of damage with many attacks and is nearly untouchable.
And if every one of my players had to do a 32 point buy for a monk character, I would have 5 different starting stats.
You take the dice out of the game, it is no longer a game.Yeah, that's why nobody ever plays chess, rugby, or poker. No dice, so they're just not games -- well, not traditional games, anyway. 8-)
He he he you when bite.
Great games love them all.
Good point.
I mean really who wants to be a fantasy writer?Me. Seriously.
So many DMs are closet fantasy writers. Writing is hard discpline. I wouldn't want to do it.
Good luck Saern.
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The problem some of us have with rolled characteristics is that they unbalance the playing field for the duration of the campaign. If each team at the start of the football season had to roll 3d6 to find out how many players they were allowed on the field at any one time for the whole season, too much would ride on that one roll*.
This is fundamentally different from random injuries, fumbles, bad calls from referees, and other chance events (which I analogize to various in-game dice rolls). It is also fundamentally different from bad play calling or lousy recruiting (which I analogize to limited tactical skill or sub-optimal choices of spells, character class, or feats).
* "We're supposed to be the heroes; we totally can't play with fewer than 14 guys on the field and we should really have 17 or 18." 8-)