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Avner's Assassination? Anyone? (NO SPOILERS!!!!!)


Savage Tide Adventure Path

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Okay so my party hates Avner. HATES. So I as the rogue in thegroup have decided to assassinate him. Any thoughts? NO SPOILERS!!!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Toolbag the Conqueror wrote:
Okay so my party hates Avner. HATES. So I as the rogue in thegroup have decided to assassinate him. Any thoughts? NO SPOILERS!!!

What's your character's alignment? Assassination would in most cases be an evil act and may have serious alignment implications.

Is there a better solution for working out your hate?

Also, i think he has family in farshore - they could seek revenge


Mothman wrote:

What's your character's alignment? Assassination would in most cases be an evil act and may have serious alignment implications.

Is there a better solution for working out your hate?

Also, i think he has family in farshore - they could seek revenge

No spoilers!

Anyway, I say cut down the bastard! Well, only if you can make it appear like an "accident".

I never liked him either! heheheh

I'd like to know how you silenced him afterwards!

Happy killings!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
luchexx wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Also, i think he has family in farshore - they could seek revenge

No spoilers!

Is that a spoiler? I thought that's why he came on the trip in the first place?

Anyway, I know Toolbag's reached Farshore, so if there is any family there he probably knows about them.


Mothman wrote:
Anyway, I know Toolbag's reached Farshore, so if there is any family there he probably knows about them.

Oops! Ok, i just thought they just met him and already hated his guts just like my party did. They doubt every one of his moves and think he is responsible of many of their voyage's misfortunes.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That's cool man.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that it was hate at first sight.


Toolbag way don't you just ask the other players In Character for advice, if you need advice. This board isn't a free Augury at will class ability.


wow, that was quick.

so i'm Toolbag's DM. when he first brought this up to me, i didn't know what to do. i mean, after this adventure they are on is over, the merivanchis don't really factor into the whole thing too much. my party, like most probably, has hated the whole merivanchi family from the beginning. so i figured i would go ahead and stat him out and see how the kid does against him and avner.

i did tell him it would be an evil act, but since he's Chaotic Neutral he may or may not decide it's in the best interest of the colony to take out lavinia's competition for mayor. without her knowing of course.


Yes, as my DM just posted, I wish to take both Avner and his uncle out to leave the line clear for Lavinia to take control of Farshore. And as slighted as it my sound I didn't bring this up to my fellow party members because I wanted it to be a private act between the DM and I. He actually suggested I post on here for advice about it seeing as how I am a first time gamer. I was thinking a sneak attack during the night on their mansion on Farshore. My move silent and hide checks have a 22 and 23 modifiers so getting to a window shouldn't be too difficult, the mage in our party has a cloak of spider walk I might be able to borrow, and once inside because I am an elf low light conditions shouldn't be a problem, and a +2 Keen(15-20 crit) rapier should finish him off nicely. Also I have an amulet that lets me casts spells so I might cast sleep on him to make sure he stays asleep.


Toolbag the Conqueror wrote:
Yes, as my DM just posted, I wish to take both Avner and his uncle out to leave the line clear for Lavinia to take control of Farshore.

Check out my "Duel with Manthalay?!" thread if yout get a chance. That bit was more fun than parts of the adventure.


I'd rule it as an evil act regardless of how it was rationalized (as I figure it's the ability to rationalize it that makes you evil).

Anyhoo, I'm more interested in hearing from your DM how he plays out the ramifications. As far as I see it, Avner is a prig and it's only the fact that he's partially financing the trip that should keep him from being left behind at Tamoachan.

Because I'm confident my players will have a hard time putting up with his antics, I'm open to ideas on what would happen to them if they didn't.


Why do player driven threads seeking info on items, NPC's, or their own actions keep popping up with the ridiculous addition of NO SPOILERS? What else is being solicited, other than spoilers? You need to look to your game (i.e. the other PC's and DM) for guidance and stop trying to glean extra info/advice/feedback (whatever you want to call it) on these boards.


Fletch wrote:

I'd rule it as an evil act regardless of how it was rationalized (as I figure it's the ability to rationalize it that makes you evil).

That statement is so true.

As for Avner, have you really talked to him? Killing someone is a slippery slope to step on, especially for the wrong reasons. So you hate him. Don't associate with him. See if you can get him to travel on the other boat. Do you plan to kill everyone you don't get along with? Be careful the path you walk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

You would be better served to carry out said assassination during the battle for farshore. The assassination would be attributed to enemy action.

Doing it the way you suggested is going to bring down the heat for somebody and will undermine the preparations for the defence of Farshore while everyone points fingers at each other. Remember, Avner and his uncle do have their supporters and the last thing Farshore needs is having the two factions at each others throats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Remember, Avner's uncle is a serious influence in Farshore and has a large number of supporters (else he wouldn't be a serious contender for mayor). An assassination isn't going to sit well with the backers and the two factions may come to blows, seriously undermining the preparations for the defence of Farshore.

An "accident" or "death due to enemy action" would be a better choice if you are determined to stay the course for your plan.


You don't really need any advice.

If you decide to move against Avner, he's roadkill. He's got maybe a quarter of your class levels, and all of them are NPC levels. The only resources he has that are within a thousand miles are also completely helpless against even one of the PCs in your group.

Since an assassination attempt is such a forgone conclusion that it isn't even worth rolling, why not try screwing with him and then leaving him alive so he has to spend the rest of his life looking up at your from far below? Or heaven forbid, you could even fix his defective personality and send him home as a reformed good guy.


I realize that rationalizing the assassination could potentially change my alignment and since elections are coming up I thought it might be an interesting twist to take out the Uncle and possibly let Avner win only to watch him fail miserably in the eyes of his people and then have him face banishment and humiliation from the colony. The only problem is timing, if I kill them off during the battle of Farshore it could be seen as a military coupe where Lavinia could be involved with the attack and I am afraid it would be worse than having Uncle take an unfortunate tumble of his balcony while smoking his favorite pipe.

p.s. I can't get advice from my party on this one because the druid and the mage would be livid. I have told the fighter and he wants to help but he wears full plate armor and is about as sneaky as a 40 ft. troll.


Gold Katana wrote:
Why do player driven threads seeking info on items, NPC's, or their own actions keep popping up with the ridiculous addition of NO SPOILERS? What else is being solicited, other than spoilers? You need to look to your game (i.e. the other PC's and DM) for guidance and stop trying to glean extra info/advice/feedback (whatever you want to call it) on these boards.

I agree 100%.

Also, killing someone just because you hate them is still an evil act. Killing someone because they wouldn't make a good mayor and you prefer another candidate is evil. This seems fairly clear cut to me.


"Toolbag way don't you just ask the other players In Character for advice, if you need advice. This board isn't a free Augury at will class ability."

"Why do player driven threads seeking info on items, NPC's, or their own actions keep popping up with the ridiculous addition of NO SPOILERS? What else is being solicited, other than spoilers? You need to look to your game (i.e. the other PC's and DM) for guidance and stop trying to glean extra info/advice/feedback (whatever you want to call it) on these boards."

Seriously Toolbag, everyone sees you continue to do this.

For his DM: I understand you can't ban him from the boards as a person, but if I caught my players doing this repeatedly after I asked them not to because there are too many spoilers, I'd drop them from the game. To me it's the same as quickly browsing the adventure in a bookstore as a player. Either way, we feel for ya.

Pre-meditated murder for revenge or self-gain is certainly one of the most clearly evil things there is. If it's not for revenge or self gain but mostly "because I don't like him" it's even worse. Not to mention that since 1/3 of the citizens are strongly Meravanchi and 1/3 are undecided, if they die off due to assassinations in a tiny village and there are no other real players on the scene, most people will simply think it was Lavinia and her employees and someone else will rise to oppose their evil.

My players hate Avner as well. The rogue just stole his gold pouch. The rogue got away with it, but was caught later by lying badly. Avner made it clear that everyone would know of this and that he wanted his gold back. The PCs aren't strongly good, but they understand that as an adventuring group that if they know of the misdeeds of one of their members and don't dismiss him from their party altogether, they are condoning his actions. They also understand that by doing this, ALL of their reputations are brought down by the actions of each member behaving this way. So they made the rogue give hated Avner his gold back, as they don't want to be thought of as thieves.

Since they work for Lavinia and not Rowyn, the majority of your PCs are probably not evil or motivated mostly by self-gain, thus having their reputations destroyed forever is a pretty strong motivator to throw out the crazy rogue murderer who surfaced in their group. If they really are mostly an evil or self-interested party and don't care about being known as 'a band of murderers' there's still the opposition movement in Farshore that would quickly exist due to assassination in a small village leaving almost no other suspects.


Toolbag the Conqueror wrote:
p.s. I can't get advice from my party on this one because the druid and the mage would be livid.

Oh snap! Are you really secretly planning on doing something you know will make the other players in your group angry?

The Exchange

I'm starting to think ole "Toolbag the Conqueror" just added 5 extra syllables to his name to throw everybody off.

:)


Fletch wrote:
Oh snap! Are you really secretly planning on doing something you know will make the other players in your group angry?

Not exactly. I am doing it because my party is too good to try and kill him. What they don't know won't hurt them and if it just come back on them I will take the fall for it because I did it. I am not crazy. Just motivated.

And my DM TOLD me to start this thread.


You just have to find the right moment to "dispose" of Avner. Here is an excerpt for JollyDoc's excellent STAP story hour on ENWorld where the PCs find a creative way to get Avner out of the picture:

"Another six days at sea, and the expedition reached the Maztican village of Renkrue. This was to be the last continental stop before they put out to open sea. Lavinia planned to take on provisions and do some trading with the villagers, and suggested that the crew of the two ships take some shore leave.

Anwar and Thrisp, realizing that they would be dealing with more Mazticans when they reached Farshore, took the opportunity to mingle with the villagers and learn what they could of the local customs and language. It was while they were speaking with one of the village elders, that a young boy came running up, out of breath and chattering rapidly in his native tongue. The elder’s face darkened and became visibly angry. He turned to Anwar and Thrisp, scowling deeply.
“Is there a problem?” Anwar asked.
“One of your people,” the elder snapped, “he try to buy young girl. Offer parents coins and beads for her! You bad people! We no trade with you! Go now!”
Anwar looked at Thrisp and the gnome nodded, “Avner.”
“Please,” Anwar said placatingly, “we apologize deeply for this insult. What is the penalty for such an offense among your people?”
The elder continued to frown. “Man must make payment to family, or else be flogged in square.”
“I see,” Anwar said, suppressing a smile. “Good sir, I promise you, this man will be brought to justice. I will bring him before you tonight. You have my word on it.”

“What’s your plan?” Thrisp asked as they walked back to the Sea Wyvern.
“The less you know, the less you incriminate yourself,” the bard smiled. “Don’t worry. I’ll handle everything.”

Anwar found Avner sulking in his cabin.
“What do you want?” the young noble sneered.
“I heard you got yourself in a bit of trouble this morning.” Anwar answered, grabbing a chair and making himself comfortable.
“What of it?” Avner snapped. “They’re just savages. They’d sell their own mothers for the right price.”
“Don’t get me wrong,” Anwar said, holding up his hands, “I understand perfectly. We’ve been at sea for weeks, and the scenery tends to get…routine, if you know what I mean. Lirith strikes me as a little spitfire, but even the spiciest soup gets cold after awhile.”
Avner stared at him skeptically. “What are you getting at?”
“Well,” Anwar continued, warming to the part, “it’s just that we’re going to be laying over here tonight, and it just so happens that I’ve come upon the location of a…hospitable establishment that caters to the tastes of a gentleman such as yourself.”
“Where is it?” Avner asked doubtfully. “I asked around myself, but everyone looked like I’d just killed their pet.”
“Subtlety, my friend,” Anwar replied. “You have to know whom to ask, and how to pose the question. Let’s just say that, if you’re still interested, I can promise you a night like you’ve never had.”
“What’s in this for you?” Avner asked, suspicion in his eyes.
“Nothing,” Anwar shrugged, “at least not now. When we reach Farshore, however, and you establish yourself in your uncle’s household, you might just remember a friend who did you a service.”
Avner smiled, and Anwar extended his hand, which the noble shook enthusiastically.

Later that night, Anwar and Avner slipped into the village under cover of darkness. The nobleman was dressed in his best finery, and clutched a bottle of wine under his cloak. Anwar led him to the only stone structure in town, built several years back by a Tyrite missionary. It was currently used as the chief’s dwelling and a communal hall, but Avner didn’t know this.
“Here?” he asked. “Isn’t this a bit…conspicuous?”
“It’s not a fixed operation,” Anwar answered. “Due to the somewhat stringent sensibilities of the villagers, these arrangements are made by appointment only when dealing with trade vessels. Don’t worry. You’re in good hands.”
They approached the building, and Anwar opened the door, motioning Avner inside. No sooner had the noble entered, than he was seized by a pair of burly warriors.
“What is the meaning of this?” he cried. “Unhand me! Do you know who I am?”
“Indeed they do,” Anwar chuckled behind him. “It seems that one option for repaying an insult as grave as yours is for the offender to serve as an indentured servant to the family for a period of one year. Consider your sentence a light one. Another option was for them to simply castrate you.”
“You can’t do this!” Avner screamed. “Don’t you think I’ll be missed? My uncle will have your head!”
“Oh, I don’t think so,” Anwar said quietly, pulling his cloak over his head, then leaning forward where only Avner could see his face in the shadows. When the nobleman peered within the hood, he saw his own reflection looking back at him. “I believe your uncle will welcome me as a beloved nephew.”
“Nooooo!!” Anwar heard Avner shriek as he turned and disappeared back into the night."


Gold Katana wrote:
Why do player driven threads seeking info on items, NPC's, or their own actions keep popping up with the ridiculous addition of NO SPOILERS? What else is being solicited, other than spoilers? You need to look to your game (i.e. the other PC's and DM) for guidance and stop trying to glean extra info/advice/feedback (whatever you want to call it) on these boards.

Couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I've been meaning to say something similar for weeks. Toolbag, the point of the game is not to win, but to overcome (or fail to overcome) challenges using YOUR OWN ingenuity.


yeah, i'm thinking i'm going to end this thread here and now. the purpose of it has made its mark. thank everyone who has admonished my player. i appreciate it. :)

when he first brought thisup to me i told him to ask people here what they thought of the idea. i'm happy with most of the responses. so this is what's going to happen.

1- if he tries to pull this off, he will find that the merivanchis aren't just stupid nobles. they actually have class levels. even if by yourself you manage to kill both of them like you are thinking, i will instantly turn your alignment to chaotic evil. no ifs ands or buts. sorry, i like being heavy handed that way. when you become evil in my campaign, i take your character and use it as an NPC. there is no negotiating with me on this. i have done this in the past with other players and i'm not about to stop now.

2. suspicion for the murders will fall upon lavinia, since she is the only one who benefits from their deaths. evidence will be sought after, and you can be sure that she will send the jade ravens to find out info. there WILL be a cleric who can cast speak with dead, and they will find out the murderer within days.

3. if you are still there, your character will be taken out into the central square and hung. without trial. within minutes after you are caught. period.

4. roll up a new character. or leave the group. those are your options should you take this path.

merivanchi is a bastard, no doubt. his uncle means well but has a bit of flawed thinking about the natives, the way farshore should be defended, and his son is unsavory. this is how it's meant to be. they also have power in sasserine, and there are family who would like to know how he died and what happened. i can assure you the rest of his family will be tough, and will send a group of tough people down to farshore to take matters into thier own hands.

i hate to be so heavy handed about this, but it must be done for the game to continue at an enjoyable pace fore EVERYONE in the group, not just one person that wants to WIN at the game instead of join in the team narrative as a whole.


I have a LE drow wizard in my party, who was just holding back the urge on the sea, but will surely kill Avner once they are in the depths of the isle's jungle. He totally has his partner in crime, a N rogue female fey'ri in the party and he bought the services of a third PC, a LN githyanki fighter/psionic warrior. Avner is so doomed >:)

This drow will surely be the ruler of Sasserine once. A vicious dog from Shadowshore who is "in love" with the Arabani mistress who controls the merchant district and is fond of drow culture. He will take over Farshore and through that, Sasserine. Who knows where he stops :)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Jebadiah Utecht wrote:
Toolbag, the point of the game is not to win, but to overcome (or fail to overcome) challenges using YOUR OWN ingenuity.
terrainmonkey wrote:
... for the game to continue at an enjoyable pace fore EVERYONE in the group, not just one person that wants to WIN at the game instead of join in the team narrative as a whole.

Amen!

A game where you sail through everything and do everything "right" will never be as fun as messing up, getting into unexpected 'even deeper doo-doo' and wriggling your way out, probably with attendant losses of life, liberty, property, standing or whatever. You'll lean back at the end of the session and everyone will look at each other and say "Wow." You'll live on the edge, use your ingenuity, think of the most hare-brained schemes, work together to pull it off, test your (and the DM's) creativity to the limits and LOVE it.

It's so, so, so not about 'winning.' Trust me, the DM wants to play the rest of the adventure path. You will get to see all the cool stuff because the DM will want you to, too. You may well lose a few characters and make a mess of a pile of situations, but that's cool too. The DM will never say, "You did it wrong, game over, everyone can just go home now." He'll say, "I can't wait to see how you get out of this!" and mean it.

Think your actions through and do whatever you are prepared to face the consequences of. If the DM says CE characters become NPC's in my game, then you'd better decide if you want to stop playing your character and have him become the DM's plaything for ever. Don't look for 'right' answers, and certainly not here. Your DM reads the answers, for Pete's sake. Do you really think nothing will be changed? If you can't let go and play normally, start your own game and then ask for DMs tips!

Contributor

The roguey, morally questionably guy in my party just crept into Avner's room at night and shaved his moustache off.

Of course, he almost got caught by the first mate sneaking into Avner's room for some late-night hanky panky, necessitating him to hide behind some crates and crouch uncomfortably for an hour, listening to sweaty sex.

I love being the DM.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My group has just made it out of the dark mountain pass. Now that they're on the cliffs I think the leader of the party (my wife) is going to wind up throwing Avner off the cliff. I've been badgering them all with his complaints, but I've been especially brutal to her, "It's your fault we're in the situation", “You’re an incompetent captain”, “Maybe if you spent less time drinking and more time working on your sailing skills you wouldn’t have crashed the ship.” Consequently, Captain Black Widow Poe (Fighter, Rogue, Scarlet Corsair) has broken Avner’s nose 3 times so far.


Fletch wrote:

I'd rule it as an evil act regardless of how it was rationalized (as I figure it's the ability to rationalize it that makes you evil).

ah, yet you most likely rationalize killing goblins or orcs to be "good" acts. or killing a dragon simply because he is a dragon, what about his dreams and goals? it is only "evil"to kill your own race so long as they have done nothing you can identify as wrong? what about the goblins and orcs... what proof do you have that they have participated in the clan's raids or what if they were forced to. either way their society trains them to act that way, maybe they see you as the evil scum who have overran their ancestral lands.

In my mind it is only truely evil if the character has no "good" motive for it, otherwise killing a dictator or a murderer to stop them from killing is evil, and then where are we...

its a bloody circle


Hasn't anyone tried Charm Monster (or Charm Person) on his moneky butt? Cause that's what my Wizard did! Had the poor fool passing out all of his rations and expensive wine at first camp, and every time he got frightened, I would just remind him how powerful my magic was in protecting him. (Yes, I'm a player... poo-poo on me for posting on a thread that says no spoilers..boohoo!) He's really not a bad guy once he obeys your every command...Mwahahahaha!


Glad to see I'm not the only player on here. Be wary fellow STAP gamer, you might get accosted for posting on here.

Also I could really care less if some of you think I am trying to "win" the game. I am a very analytical thinker and will ponder a situation many times over in my head before I make a decision. I have trained my mind so usually I can look at every angle and outcome of a situation in under ten seconds. I over analyze everything to the point where if I didn't learn to control and the use this ability to my advantage I would go insane. Its a very serious problem when I am given a week to solve a problem, like in D&D. We leave off the adventure with just enough to keep us thinking about the next session and my mind runs with it. I am unable to talk to my fellow party about these things, partly because I don't have the time and partly because work schedules conflict. And so I am left with the last people who know what I am talking about and who can put in their two cents; you guys. And so to those of you who get all riled up because there are players on these boards: suck up and deal. Not every player is evil and are on here to metagame, some, like myself, seek advice from seasoned players and as DM's, that qualifies you guys. If you can't stand it when players post threads saying "NO SPOILERS", here's a revolutionary new idea (if I haven't already proposed one by saying suck up and deal), DON'T READ THEM! I know all this is probably going to get me into a very large cauldron of Alchemist's Fire but I could really care less at this point.

And if my character name of Toolbag the Conqueror says anything about my real life personality it is that I have a great sense of humor and an uncanny knack for trouble, so do with it what you will. I just hope someone got a chuckle out of it.


Tool,
You might find other PLAYERS on the dragon boards, have you tried there?

If I was a player I certainly would like to speculate and swap stories, but this board has way too many spoilers for any player who is not (at least remotely...subconsciously??), fishing for spoilers. Some thread titles alone are spoilers. I do not believe that you have lurked around these boards and not come across at least one bit of meta-knowledge. But whatever.

I care not.

PS- glad you have found a way to not go insane.


joshua johnson wrote:

Tool,

You might find other PLAYERS on the dragon boards, have you tried there?

.

I'm sorry, but fans of the path aren't going to find hardly anything on the Dragon boards. This is a common misconception of posters on the Dungeon threads, that there is a plethora of information waiting at this "other place", and thank you very much, stay out of our club. When I ran Age of Worms, it was the exact same way, and the occasional poster who would identify himself as a player would get chewed out in a similiar fashion in then subtly redirected to that "other place", where nothing exists. You find more information in the Savage Tidings per monthly install than all of the posts regarding the path combined. Shame on you people for trying to decide who should and should not be able to read these posts. I am a player and personally get a great kick out of reading the obituaries section, if nothing else than to laught at other's mistakes, and nothing is really going to stop me from doing that. Do I occassionally see a post's title that possibly gives away a future event or compromises information? Yes, but so what?! That's my right and its hadly worse than seeing a preview for a movie that you're going to see anyways. How anyone dares to question this right (besides your DM) is beyond me.

Dark Archive

Toolbag the Conqueror wrote:
Okay so my party hates Avner. HATES. So I as the rogue in thegroup have decided to assassinate him. Any thoughts? NO SPOILERS!!!

Well you could take a cue from the Rogue in our group. My group HATES Avner as well. The Rogue has taken to playing TERRIBLE practical jokes on Avner. He's going to probably be driven crazy by the time they reach the Isle. She's disabled the lock on his door, Using a wand of sleep on him, stripping him naked and leaving him on the deck of the ship. I think she did the same but this time dragged him up the mast and tied him up hanging upside down and naked. Put a corpse in his bed etc. etc. etc. At this point they don't see Avner much. He pretty much keeps himself secluded with his horse down in the hold or locked up in his room.

It's really pretty funny. The last stop they made she bought a TON of jokes to play on him on the trip.


I am not trying to decide who should and shouldn't read these boards. That would be plain silly. I'm just making the point that players on these boards will see spoilers. Do what you will with that information. There are plenty of people who read the last page of a book first too. It doesn't matter to anyone but the person who's reading it. And heck, maybe some players like reading spoilers. Thats fine too. Let's just not kid ourselves about whats goin on here!

I would be miffed if I was a player, cause personally I wouldn't want to be here, and if the dragon boards are thin on STAP players that would be disappointing as well. If i had a suggestion i would put it here.

Have fun!


Here we are in complete agreement. As you said, people should be aware that players do occasionally read posts, specifically the ones marked no spoilers. This works both ways; players read these spots but occasionally are subjected to over-eager posts that in their excitment reveal a bit of information. No one can fault a person for being overly enthusiastic about enjoying the Path, and careless mistakes are sometimes made in supposably spoiler-free areas due to sheer exuberance of the poster. Players cannot get upset when a spoiler does creep into a supposably spoiler free thread as no one is going to edit it unless it has profanity or something else that would get it removed anyways. At the same time, DMs shouldn't be upset that players read these sights, even if its supposably spoiler-free information. No offense intended to yourself meant at all, Joshua. I think what set me off was the tone brought by veiled name calling in earlier posts on this thread, which is little more than unintelligent, me-too, dogpiling tactics for someone who can't contribute 2 cents worth of constuctive conversation, either because their too lazy or ego-driven. I don't want other players WHO MIGHT HAVE A GOOD QUESTION ABOUT THE PATH, feel afraid to post because people are going to jump down their throats. Avner is a problematic NPC (in a good way), and its interesting to read of the various ways people have dealt with him.


And yes, there really is next to nothing compared to what's over here regarding all three paths. So given the choice between reading and talking about awesome adventure paths on a sight where the vast majority of others will respond or posting on a forum that usually leads with requests for articles, I think I'll take the sight relating to my interests.


Finally, knowing the Spoilers for the entire path, as I do (I had read the spoiler issue before the path's starting issue at which point my DM and I had yet to decide between us who was gonna run it.), doesen't make a lick of difference in surviving the encounters. I knew all about the Demon monkey from hell in "HTBM", but nothin prepared me and my party for him when we actually faced him. Even if you know one or two monsters that appear in the path, you don't know the context in which they appear. Heck, I know I'll be lucky to survive what's coming in "The Lightless Depths", yet I have no idea what's actually in the module other than the names of a couple monsters. Does that mean that I go and buy a crap-ton of Abberration slaying arrows for my character because I think there's a Neh-Thelgu (how they're pulling this off I can't wait to see)in the module? No, because there's no way my character would have the slightest notion about it. From playing and DMing for a really long time, all I can say is Meta-gaming is something that good players don't do because they realize the difference between character perception and player perception. Spoilers are really only spoilers when they significantly involve a pivotal plot piece, not the battles or minor relationships between 2nd-cast NPCs. Anyways, you could know all there is to know about the big bad near the end of "Sea Wyvern's Wake" and still die horribly due to dice.


To be clear for ya: Nobody got upset/cares if players read these boards. People only care about their own group. What was being -pointed out- was that Tool has made a habit lately of posting on this particular forum looking for meta-game information.

*shrugs*

Human beings are free to do as they please, but let's not kid ourselves with the thinly veiled explanations. Nobody cares if some other DM's players go to the bookstore and read the adventure just like nobody cares that terrainmonkey has a player that goes online to garner out-of-game information on a spoiler-filled forum about what his in-game character should do (read: cheats). There are big ways and little ways to cheat in D&D, this is a little way. Like often not erasing wand charges when you use a wand, or not paying much attention to erasing gold you spend. By all means, do as you please, but expect people to call you on some things.


and besides, good will always take you back for the right price.. so go ahead and become the worst evil imaginable, rule with terror and when the island empire is strong.. repent, and everything is fine again ;)


okay folks, let's not all gang up on Tool, here. he came here asking for advice on a certain act he was going to carry out and i think he got it. he's actually a good player to a certain extent. he comes up with some bizarre stuff at the table and some of it actually works out to his benefit. this is one of those harebrained schemes that i thought he needed other input for, so i sent him here to ask other folks. other folks that had more play experience than he did.

now, about metagaming. yes, i hate it, and have told him about using out of game knowledge and so far he's been good about it. besides, i told him if he does use anything he gets from here, i will change everything. and if another PC dies because of something he did, he would probably get beat by that player. i have a couple of rough and rowdy guys at the table. in fact, one of the players, who sits directly across from Tool, carries a switchblade, a couple of other knives, and puts them on the table to get into character. he ahs no compunction to whip one out if he feels the slightest bit offended, and tool knows this.

but please, if there is anyone to blame for looking for spoilers in this case, it was me for sending him here. i've got this situation under control, and we have yet to discuss the whole situation and come to some agreements. but whatever the decision i'm going to let the dice fall where they may and go from there.

Dark Archive

Sterling wrote:
By all means, do as you please, but expect people to call you on some things.

Well what I expect is to be able to log into a forum and share and discuss ideas about my favorite games. What ruins it for me isn't spoilers, isn't the threat that one of my players gain information. Heck I've got a player that I'm positive is reading the adventures in the magazine. I don't really care. I just change up the encounters so that what he expects to happen doesn't. In the end he's had 2 pc's killed while the others are still runnin on their original characters.

What I do not expect is to log into a forum and end up finding posts full of, i'm assuming men, acting like children trying to see who's got the bigger wiener. Name calling and general back biting kills a forum for me. Do we not have a moderator that can put these fires out?

Now see I've let myself get wound up in the storm as well. CRAP!


Well from the looks of this thread I might be better off just embarassing the hell of out Avner and his uncle. I am quite fond of my character and have no intentions of turning him evil so I guess that is my only choice. JP when are we playing next?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I'm certainly looking forward to hearing what you choose to do. Ever thought of the Campaign Journal section, or the ENWorld story hour? Sounds like you guys have some crazy times!


Toolbag the Conqueror wrote:
Well from the looks of this thread I might be better off just embarassing the hell of out Avner and his uncle. I am quite fond of my character and have no intentions of turning him evil so I guess that is my only choice. JP when are we playing next?

Dude, trust me, embarrassing an annoying NPC publicly is going to be so much more fun for yourself and the entire group than just killing the guy. Looking back at this campaign, odds are that "Remember that time I knifed that one guy?" isn't going to be as fun to talk about as "Remember that time we slipped Avner all those laxatives, forcing him to use the outhouse with the toilet seat we had covered in Universal Solvent so that he would have to walk around with a toilet seat stuck on his backside until someone dissolved the magic glue for him??" And that's a big part of what makes that game fun. Can you get your fellow players laughing so hard that Mountain Dew streams out of their noses? You probably can.


in the interests of fairness I must now blast Terranmonkey:

While I can understand an aversion to chaotic evil characters within your group it should not matter as long as they are not disruptive towards the game. Also why would a single murder if planned with good goals in mind be necessarily evil or chaotic... if it is planned it is not random, if it is done to support the culture then what is evil? is then killing a goblin evil? you may ot know whether or not the goblin is evil yet odds are you'll kill it without checking.

I would advise that if he wanted to do this, dont make it easy but certainly don't discorage it through heavy-handed arbitrary punishment, if you think it would make him chaotic evil, then ake him chaotic evil but don't take his character away! Wait untill he has proven that he cannot game maturely.

Liberty's Edge

While I can understand an aversion to chaotic evil characters within your group it should not matter as long as they are not disruptive towards the game.

As long as Toolbag the Conqueror doesn’t try to destroy your game through ways both crazy and malign or just role playing himself let him think his crazy plots

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I know DMs who have a "No Evil characters" or "Evil characters become NPCs" policy. It may be arbitrary, but there are many good reasons why people would not want evil PCs in their game. As long as this is clearly stated to the players I don't see an issue with it.

And remember that the original stated aim of killing Avner in this case was "because I hate him" - not exactly a good act is it? I appreciate that other people do it differently, and what works in your game is cool, but in my game this sort of assassination would instantly turn the character's alignment to evil (although personally I DO still let players run evil PCs although I far from encourage it).


carborundum wrote:
I'm certainly looking forward to hearing what you choose to do. Ever thought of the Campaign Journal section, or the ENWorld story hour? Sounds like you guys have some crazy times!

What is this ENWorld story hour/Campaign Journal you speak of? And oh rest assured that when our party is together, the bar is open, and an opponent is unfortunate enough to cross the flame tipped axe of our fighter, it usually ends in the fighter's signature "taint cleave", wherein the body falls limply after being split down the middle. Yeah we're sick bastards at times.:-D (but of course all in fun).

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