Heroes


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Andrew Crossett wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
And... you think people who die in this show won't be back?

Not without it becoming more and more stupid and contrived each time they do it.

Is this a problem for a comedy show? Now if it were serious a drama, yes it might well be awkward, but when Inspector Clouseau and the Pink Panther films get more and more silly it's comic genius.

;)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Andrew Crossett wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
And... you think people who die in this show won't be back?

Not without it becoming more and more stupid and contrived each time they do it.

So... I'll put you down for "no," then? :-)

Former VP of Finance

Wow...just reading two or three posts in here...this thread is spoiler-a-rific.

I think I'll have to avoid it until I've caught up.

Scarab Sages

Chris Self wrote:

Wow...just reading two or three posts in here...this thread is spoiler-a-rific.

I think I'll have to avoid it until I've caught up.

Or, and bear with me here, you can spare yourself the damage to your logic centers and read this thread instead of catching up...

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Well bad news for Hiro,

TV guide magazine said they're steering away from time travel going forward.


I actually feel bad for Bryan Fuller. He's going to waste the next 1-2 years of his life trying to save a show that is well beyond saving. Unless, of course, they're willing to dump season 3 entirely and retcon it completely out of continuity.

Honestly... I wouldn't be nearly so angry about what this show has become if I didn't love it so much back when it was good.


I'm in Australia so I am a few episodes behind the rest of you. I think Heroes and Prison Break are the first TV shows that I have watched that have gone from "Really good, can't wait for the next episode." to "What the hell have they done to this show?"

I still watch both of them but it wouldnt' surprise me if both of them got canned. My wife used to watch Heroes with me but doesn't anymore as she said it got too confusing, dark (in regards to the plot as well as just plain dark to watch on the TV!) and weird.

I agree with her in many ways. I don't like what they've done to all the "good" characters. Mohinder was one of the really "good" guys and now they've turned him into some sort of monster. Peter and Hiro's abilities were obviously too powerful so they came up with screwy plot devices to make sure that they don't ruin things for the bad guys.

And I don't understand why they need to constantly keep turning characters over. What was wrong with Micah, his cousin (the one who could learn things quickly) and Nikki/Jessica? What about Elle? Why was there a need to get rid of them and replace them with even more characters? It's like the writers have totally lost the plot (both literally and figuratively).

I'll probably keep watching it until it gets canned but I am disappointed that they managed to ruin a really good show so quickly.

Olaf the Stout


Andrew Crossett wrote:

I actually feel bad for Bryan Fuller. He's going to waste the next 1-2 years of his life trying to save a show that is well beyond saving. Unless, of course, they're willing to dump season 3 entirely and retcon it completely out of continuity.

Honestly... I wouldn't be nearly so angry about what this show has become if I didn't love it so much back when it was good.

Hiro goes back and warns members of the company such as Maury Parkman, Angela (maybe not in her case!)his mother and father so they can prevent the Company gaining access to the superpower formula so they're forced to follow in Sylar's wake gathering the part of the human body he uses to analyse their powers so they can try to figure out what he found.

Arthur Petrelli in this altered future did actually commit suicide at Maury's behest and he dug up Kensei since he saw what Hiro did to him when he was warned thereby Hiro's mission is because he discovers his nemesis Kensai has escaped and the whole point of the amended third season is Hiro discovering how his use of his power has latered everything so he begins to treat his powers much more carefully leading to him becoming the hero seen in season 1 except not bloodthirsty as a result of the Nathan who is actually Sylar becoming president.

Peter's power however only allows him to remember a limited selection of powers dependent on how he relates to them in this case Nathan (his brother who has the power of flight because he was actually the son of someone else adopted by the Petrelli's who has a nephew who also has the same power), Claire (his niece who looks up to him the first person to do so and not consider him insane except for Hiro), Claude(Someone Peter looks up to), Hiro(Mostly because Hiro looks up to Peter and Peter sees Hiro as a true hero even though he is in Hiro's eyes courtesy of season 1) and Sylar (who is Peter's brother the pair were separated after their true father was imprisoned by the company as the first powered serial killer except they didn't know he had two sons). Any other power he only gains temporarily ala nuclear power since he has no personal link to them ergo he isn't mega powerful just has a few permanent talents and a host of extra abilities if he can figure out what the new powered individual he's with possesses (as in when Sylar used his powers on him so far he only has telekinesis because that was used both times before he was able to use it in defence).

Sylar is going insane because with every power he assimulates he is also gaining further aberrations as in with great power comes great responsibility and he's the picture example of what happenes if you don't listen...

Hiro's power allows him to manipulate time and space allowing him to teleport himself and anyone or thing he touches with him, he can freeze time except for those who have a similar power or he's in physical contact with.

So how would YOU resolve the perils of season 3's awfulness?


Sylar continues to grow in power until it is utterly impossible for anyone to oppose him directly. He turns the world into a nightmarish hell, in which he and a few of his superpowered minions basically enslave the planet in order to serve Sylar's ever-growing Hunger.

The Good Guys band together into a single team dedicated to stopping him. (No more 7 or 8 different POV's during the same episode). They make the discovery that by sacrificing their own powers (at least temporarily), they can hugely magnify the powers of any one of their number.

Hiro is the chosen one. The others sacrifice their powers and turn Hiro temporarily into a tremendously powerful manipulator of space and time. He travels back to the end of season 2, when Sylar was just about to regain his powers via Claire's blood. Burning off his power in one massive stroke, Hiro creates a space/time rift that creates two identical Earths.

On one Earth, time is reset back to the end of season 2. Everything is as it was then, except that the heroes who fought Sylar all remember the events of season 3. The gradually regain their powers -- perhaps with modifications. Now wiser and stronger from their experiences, they vow to work together to find their place in the world. Hiro becomes the badass time-travelling Future Hiro we glimpsed in season 1.

On Earth 2, Sylar finds himself in a world that is exactly like ours in every detail...except that he is absolutely the only human being in it. He still has all his powers, but no reason to use them. And he still has his Hunger, but no way to satisfy it. We last see him as the reality of his situation dawns on him: immortal, utterly alone, and tortured by an ever-increasing Hunger that he can never, ever sate. And that's the last we see of him.

And reboot the show from there.


Angela Wakes up and we are at the end of season one. She looks into the camera and says "Looks like I got my work cut out for me".

BAM!


Andrew Crossett wrote:
I actually feel bad for Bryan Fuller. He's going to waste the next 1-2 years of his life trying to save a show that is well beyond saving. Unless, of course, they're willing to dump season 3 entirely and retcon it completely out of continuity.

There are some game systems that could benefit from this phenomenon. ;-)

I like to think of the producers of Heroes as DMs that have lost all control over the PCs in their games. They're not quite sure how it happened, how they could allow these characters to gain a ridiculous amount of power in such a short period of time when everything was clicking along fine at 1st level. They know they can't deux ex machina the storyline back, so their only outlet is to nuke the entire site from orbit just so they can be sure.

In a strange way, Heroes mirrors gaming. All the little perks and powerups without any leashes, and then a failed surprise roll when things get out of control.

Scarab Sages

Well, I actually thought last night's fall finale was pretty decent.

Spoiler:
The parts in The Company headquarters were great. I thought Sylar was finally acting like a psycho uber-villain again. I just wish he'd have used more of his abilities.

The other parts were OK. I'm glad to see they gave Peter his powers back, but would have been fine if they hadn't. I like the power they gave to Ando, and it'll be interesting to see how he can learn to use that offensively (as in the future sequence when they showed him seemingly killing Hiro).

I'm also glad they finally cured Mohinder. Watching him turn into a poor-man's version of Brundle-Fly was somewhat painful. I wonder if they'll let him keep his powers.

The conflict between Nathan and Peter is interesting. I think Adrian Pasdar is great as a bad guy, and the sneak peek at the second half of the season was cool.

And I loved the cameo by Michael Dorn. I hope they do more of those.

Dark Archive

Spoiler:
One the one hand, there was quite a bit of advancement in this episode. The last few have felt like they were spinning their wheels. "Sylar's Bad! Sylar's Good! Sylar's Bad! Sylar's Good! Sylar's Bad Again! Sylar makes waffles! Sylar reads the telephone book! Sylar's first date! The one where Mr. Roper overhears something Sylar says and there's a whacky misunderstanding!" Yawn.

There was a bit more death than I would have liked. Homeless-Colossus, Puppeteer-dude, some random black guy whose powers we'll never know, Knox, First Recruit Dude, etc. It's like, 'Welcome to Heroes! You'll die a nameless off-screen death in the second episode in which you appear.'

And then Sylar. Again. It's like a running gag, since they've already announced his upcoming storyarc with his real father. Almost as anticlimactic as the big season five 'death of Buffy' that came out a week after they splashed all over the news that the actress was signed for season six...

I kinda hope that both Meredith and Flint survived the respective destructions of Primatech and Pinehearst. I don't care much for either character, but there's been enough completely pointless third-tier character death, IMO.

Invisible Claude and Molly Walker and Micah and TaskMistress, wherever you are, stay hidden!

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

The third character in Level 5 is from the online graphic novels. Echo. A lot of little details get covered in those stories.


The fundamental problem is that this show has become SYLAR PRESENTS: SYLAR, THE SERIES featuring SYLAR.

And all other story opportunities must be sacrificed in the name of MOAR SYLAR.

Honestly... he's not that compelling a character. Especially since he seems to be written by tacking ideas to the wall on index cards and throwing darts at them.

Dark Archive

Russ Taylor wrote:
The third character in Level 5 is from the online graphic novels. Echo. A lot of little details get covered in those stories.

Cool! With a name like Echo, was he a sonic character, or able to reflect attacks back at people or something?

Being terribly efficiency-minded, it just bugs the hell out of me that Sylar killed all of these people without ripping open their brains and taking their powers... That and the rampant killing of the human security guards seemed kinda beneath him. It's not like he *had* to kill any of them, with the powers at his disposal (and his way-too-slow realization that he can learn powers without killing people).


What bugs the hell out of me is that Sylar just decided, out of nowhere, to go from being Gentle Mr. Sensitive to balls-to-the-wall evil because... an eclipse ended.

Welcome to Plot Convenience Theater, ladies and gentlemen. Please note all exits.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aberzombie wrote:

And I loved the cameo by Michael Dorn. I hope they do more of those.

I missed that... who did he play?

Spoiler:
Edit: NM He was the President

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Andrew Crossett wrote:

What bugs the hell out of me is that Sylar just decided, out of nowhere, to go from being Gentle Mr. Sensitive to balls-to-the-wall evil because... an eclipse ended.

Welcome to Plot Convenience Theater, ladies and gentlemen. Please note all exits.

I didn't get that from the plot arc at all. While I did think the four episodes around and including the eclipse were pretty weak, the change in heart didn't have that much to do with the eclipse. It had a lot to do with being left for dead, and even more to do with being lied to.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I guess I missed something, and hopefully someone can point out what I missed.

Spoiler:
In the 2nd to last episode, Claire and Hiro go back in time 16 years, and then Mr. Petrelli shows up, take's Hiro's powers, and throws him off the building to wind up on the flag pole. Claire got hit and knocked out.

Then, in the last episode, Claire's in the present again with dad fighting Sylar. Somehow, I missed how she got back to the present, but left Hiro behind. Can anyone point out how that happened?

Also, the one thing I really didn't like about this episode was that people seemed to appear out of nowhere. In particular, I didn't like how the freezing lady appears to kill the fear guy that is about to kill Nathan. I never saw her coming, and wondered where she learned to become invisible. I would have prefered showing her sneaking up on him, or some plausible explanation on how she got the jump on him.

Scarab Sages

JoelF847 wrote:
I guess I missed something, and hopefully someone can point out what I missed.

Yeah, you did miss it:

Spoiler:
In the 16 years ago past, Arthur tells Claire to take a message to Angela saying he has won. He then touches her on the shoulder and sends her back to the future. She was in the process of delivering her message when Sylar attacked.

Scarab Sages

Aberzombie wrote:

Yeah, you did miss it:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
A bigger question is how exactly Daphne used her moving-so-fast-she-goes-back-in-time power to go forwards again after picking up Hiro. Ho hum. That whole idea was one step away from Superman reversing the Earth's rotation to turn back time anyway. My inner physicist, she weeps.
Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Illessa wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

Yeah, you did miss it:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
She ran in the other direction? I mean, is it really any more nonsensical than the rest of the plot so far?
Scarab Sages

Paul Watson wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Heh, very true. In fact, I joked about almost that exact explanation when we were watching it ("She's running backwards!").
It's just that this isn't just utterly none-nonsensical character development (which bugs me, but hey, I guess they're all just freaking nuts), it's such an obvious and gaping logical hole in their explanation that I semi-hoped that they gave some justification that I missed... I should remember this is the series responsible for the comic where a woman knocked a satellite out of orbit by jumping on it... never mind...
Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Illessa wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted ** It's just that this isn't just utterly none-nonsensical character development (which bugs me, but hey, I guess they're all just freaking nuts), it's such an obvious and gaping logical hole in their explanation that I semi-hoped that they gave some justification that I missed...

Why would they start now? It's hardly the first obvious and gaping logical hole, is it? And that's using comic book logic which smooths out a lot of holes.

Scarab Sages

Paul Watson wrote:
Why would they start now? It's hardly the first obvious and gaping logical hole, is it? And that's using comic book logic which smooths out a lot of holes.

*shrugs* I think it's just the first "How's that supposed to work?" moment I've had outside of the comics that hasn't either hinged on knowledge of science (which I mostly shrug off with a bit of wry amusement, it's a super hero show after all. This time though, you don't need knowledge of the relevant science to know that the explanation just doesn't cover it) or an attack of fridge logic later on.

If anything I guess it just indicates that the show isn't immersing me any more, so I notice these things straight away and they bug me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Damn British... THem and thier silly Logic...

And this is coming from the same people who made a TV show of a Man who never dies but only changes form and time travels in a old Police Box that is larger on the inside then the outside!!!! And has a Screwdriver that opens anything!!

and you are complaining about logic!!!

Pfft!!!

;-)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:

Damn British... THem and thier silly Logic...

And this is coming from the same people who made a TV show of a Man who never dies but only changes form and time travels in a old Police Box that is larger on the inside then the outside!!!! And has a Screwdriver that opens anything!!

and you are complaining about logic!!!

Pfft!!!

;-)

Are you dissing the Doctor?

There's only one thing I have to say to that!

Spoiler:
[Dalek]EX-TER-MIN-ATE!!!!![/Dalek]

Scarab Sages

Dragnmoon wrote:

Damn British... THem and thier silly Logic...

And this is coming from the same people who made a TV show of a Man who never dies but only changes form and time travels in a old Police Box that is larger on the inside then the outside!!!! And has a Screwdriver that opens anything!!

and you are complaining about logic!!!

Pfft!!!

;-)

Hee! We love you too Dragnmoon :P.

I don't mind the impossible (hell, if I apply real-world physics to it whilst accepting their comic book logic, there is actually a semi-satisfying explanation, it's just not an obvious one). I'm just a big fan of internal consistency, all they needed was some bullshit explanation as to why it worked both ways and I'd have been happy :).

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Spoiler:

Since they established she's doing tachyon-style (faster-than-light) time travel, all she has to do to go forward is run near the speed of light, relying on relativity to get her home without much aging. I leave it as an exercise to the reader how she gets the energy to do this, survives the friction, avoids igniting the earth's atmosphere, etc.

Tongue in cheek :)

Scarab Sages

Russ Taylor wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Yup, that's what I was referring to with the semi-satisfying explanation :D. It's quite possible that it's what they had in mind, it just irks me that they didn't outright state it, when I figure it's quite a counter-intuitive thing to the lay-person. But hell, ignoring the infinite energy and other such fun physics problems (cause that just leads to arguments about Causality or worse, I'll end up complaining about the Genetics, or trying to explain how everyone's powers work, that way madness lies), I just want to know how the hell you can fine tune it to a specific place at a specific time on your first deliberate try. Girl's got some mad skillz :P.

Anyway, I'm just bimbling about something relatively inane for fun. Mostly I have no intention of watching the next series, the poor story structure and appalling charactarisation in this one has just put me right off sadly...

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

It actually took her 5,000+ tries to get to the right time and place - off camera of course :)

Scarab Sages

I hope the second half of Season 3 is a little better, although I'm not sure how effective Nathan is going to be as the Big Bad. Still Adrian Pasdar is a good actor and pulls of creepy pretty well.

Scarab Sages

Well, last night's episode was pretty interesting.

Spoiler:
Nathan really is acting like major villain now. All this from a guy who can fly.

Still, you'd think if those agents were so bad ass, they'd have come up with a better plan to get Sylar. Those poor bastards.

I noticed that how Peter's ability works has been changed slightly. Now he has to touch someone in order to gain their ability. I'm guessing that, unlike his father, he doesn't steal them though.

The whole "Ando's lair" thing was kind of annoying. Seems like, once again, they refuse to let the character of Hiro develop into a mature adult. Disappointing, but at least Ando has a better head on his shoulders.

And what the hell is up with Parkman all of a sudden gaining the Precog Artist ability? That may be a little too much.

Either way, so far, so OK. I'm hoping that they really don't get too idiotic with this second half story.


SO far I'm happy enough with what they've done. I'm willing to go along and see how things turn out.

I've got to say, I enjoyed the first episode. And I was happy to see them have Syler not get taken down easily...and have him use various powers to take out his attackers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Man... I wish they kill off Sylar already

Scarab Sages

I'm not so sure about killing Sylar off. He's a great villain (when they aren't trying to make him more sympathetic). I say keep him as a villain, but make his appearances a little more sporadic. He doesn't need to be in every episode.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aberzombie wrote:

Well, last night's episode was pretty interesting.

** spoiler omitted **

I enjoyed the last Epsiode... But cliff hangers like that drive me crazy!!!


I'm just not sure why Peter appears to be in such jeopardy...

Hello, you can fly!

Once again, characters conveniently forgetting their abilities for the sake of the story. Lame.


Shadowborn wrote:

I'm just not sure why Peter appears to be in such jeopardy...

Hello, you can fly!
Once again, characters conveniently forgetting their abilities for the sake of the story. Lame.

I'm wondering who fell out of the plane rather than Peter remembering he can fly...

Last time I checked Hiro has no powers so I guess they can't tell...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Shadowborn wrote:

I'm just not sure why Peter appears to be in such jeopardy...

Hello, you can fly!

Once again, characters conveniently forgetting their abilities for the sake of the story. Lame.

I think Peter knew he could fly, but didn't want to escape, he watned to stay in there to try to help the other prisoners. We've never seen the Petrelli flying powers allow hovering, only really fast flying, so if Peter had wanted, he could have flown to safety, but that wouldn't have allowed him to stay to try to help.

Dark Archive

As a couple of other people mentioned, I think they modified Peter's power following his injection so that now he can only hold one ability at a time. They hinted at this with his use of Mohinder's strength to fight the guards on the plane, which disappeared once he had touched Nikki. After that point, he was only able to use her freezing touch. I really like this change and remember being shocked when I learned that he originally had the power to completely absorb the abilities of anyone he encountered, forever. That's just not a sustainable power over a long-term series.

I that there was another hint that his power had changed when Nathan asked him what he could do, and his reply was along the lines of "What did you last see me do?"

Dark Archive

PulpCruciFiction wrote:
They hinted at this with his use of Mohinder's strength to fight the guards on the plane, which disappeared once he had touched Nikki.

Whoops, I meant Tracy.

Scarab Sages

Well, tonight's episode...

Spoiler:
...confirmed that Peter can now only hold one power at a time. I don't particularly like this development. True, his previous unlimited ability was a little too powerful and unbalancing. Now, however, I think they've gone in the complete opposite direction. Better to have him be able to absorb and hold maybe 3 or 4 powers at a time - that way, they can have at least one person with a hope of going up against Sylar one-on-one.

And I wasn't too crazy about the new character they introduced - Luke. Was it just me, or did they hint that Sylar and Luke might be brothers? YAWN - didn't they already go down this road with Peter and Sylar. Oh well, maybe I'll get to watch Sylar cut open Luke's head after they find daddy.

Finally, I guess Daphne is dead. Seems that way. Can't say that I'm sorry, as I found her character to be obnoxious.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aberzombie wrote:

Well, tonight's episode...

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
I Liked Daphne!!.. I am very upset that it seems she is dead..:-( And the route they are going with the show has it's good parts... Though I really liked liking Nathan... I really hate Hating Nathan :-(..

After a downturn, I've found the last two episodes to be excellent. I was happy to see a few familiar faces that haven't been seen in a long time.

I hope this return to quality lasts because volumes 3 and 4 have been inconsistent to say the least.

Scarab Sages

I've also been enjoying the last several episodes. As for this past Monday:

Spoiler:
I managed to deduce Rebel's identity about 30 seconds before they actually showed Micah. I have to say, I love the way he's been using his powers, and the fact that they've grown so much. I don't find him nearly as annoying as I used to.

And I loved the final scene with Tracy Strauss - thought it was very well done, and a terrific use of her powers. I can't wait to see who they bring Ali Larter back as next.

I'm also kind of glad they killed off Daphne - she started off as an obnoxious character, and I was never able to fully like her. I did like the way Matt used his abilities to try and give her a peaceful death.

The Exchange

Aberzombie wrote:

I've also been enjoying the last several episodes. As for this past Monday:

** spoiler omitted **

Well I always liked "Rebel" and knew who they were from the git go really wasn't hard to figure out. And the other person you mentioned is probably the only one of that gender on the show who didn't annoy me. So yeah not happy with that development.

Hopefully that wasn't spoilerish of me, though honestly how can you have a thread discussing a show and constantly have to worry about spoiler warnings and or hiding them? Never really bought into the whole idea. If you don't want to be spoiled don't read such threads.

Scarab Sages

Someone kill Sylar allready. The show should be renamed the Sylar show considering that all the plot lines revolve around him now.


Ubermench wrote:
Someone kill Sylar allready. The show should be renamed the Sylar show considering that all the plot lines revolve around him now.

But given that he's the only character so far who has proved capable of using his intelligence score, can you blame them? ;)

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