Experience Issues in The Sea Wyvern's Wake


Savage Tide Adventure Path


I don't know if everyone has had the problem but this adventure is supposed to raise your PCs(assuming 4-5) to 7th level by the end. I don't see that happening, even with a total cleanup of all of the encounters and no NPC aid.

Since some foes will escape and certain NPCs are bound to be involved in certain combats, I see something like 17,000-18,000 experience(plus bonuses) as the likely result.

The answer would appear to be the wandering monsters which have a 28% chance per day while hugging the coast, reduced to 8% per day on the open seas. However, ignoring the risks of random dice either denying you your wanderers or, alternately, drowning your players in random foes, I just don't like the feel of too many such events.

After all, if there are that many regular problems, why would the trade route be viable?

Instead I feel that the number should be limited to 150% of the experience you feel is likely to be needed to reach 7th level and should make a certain degree of sense.

Further, as the PCs are facing monsters on the open sea, treasure is going to be something of an issue.

I'll be back tomorrow with a few ideas I had on this but eagerly await any comments or advice on the matter.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The wandering monsters shouldn't be a factor in the adventure; since there's a chance of NO monsters appearing (and indeed, many DMs don't even use wandering monsters), they shouldn't be assumed to be a factor in the XP handed out.

Keeping that in mind, when we print an Adventure Path installment, we try to make sure there's enough encounters in the adventure so that your party'll make it through and end up at the proper level for the next in the series. Sometimes we don't have a chance to fine tune the encounters as much as we would like (which can lead to situations like we had back in the Age of Worms where we had to hand out a lot of Ad-Hoc Experience awards for things many of our readers felt were too trivial). With that in mind, let's look "Sea Wyvern's Wake" over.

Needless to say, spoilers to follow.

For "Sea Wyvern's Wake" we assume that the PCs are entering at about 10,000 XP apiece (in fact, it's probably higher, since the previous 2 adventures had a LOT of XP to hand out). But for the sake of argument, let's assume 10,000 XP and a party of four PCs. Since each of those four PCs needs to be at 21,000 XP to be 7th level for the next adventure, "Sea Wyvern's Wake" needs to dish out 44,000 XP in all.

Assuming that you give out XP after a session, and assuming that you'll get 4 sessions out of the adventure and that you end the second session just as the PCs are leaving the ruins of Tamoachan, by my calculations the PCs should be hitting level 6 at about the point they finish with Tamoachan. The encounter with Purity's Prow and her crew of feeble pirates becomes their first encounter as a 6th level party, in other words. They've defeated a water mephit, hopefully prevented a blue slaad from hatching, killed a bunch of monsters (flotsam ooze, basilisk, gibbering mouther, will-o-wisp, and varangoin), dealt with some traps (the wall of fire and the mummy rot), and caught Rowyn, gaining a CR 3 award, a CR 4, three CR 5s, four CR 6s, and two CR 8s. Total XP for the party at this point: 15,700 XP each. 6th level.

The second half of the adventure has a variable number of vine horrors, but we'll assume two waves of 4 at the Sea Wyvern and then the 6 in the Thunderer. This gives us 9 CR 1/2 awards for the pirates, a CR 4 award for Lars "No Neck," a CR 6 for the hydra, three CR 3s for the assassin vines in the Rage, 14 CR 4s for the vine horrors, a CR 8 for the Mother of All, and a CR 6 for the masher at the end of the adventure. Total XP for the party at this point: 21,662. 7th-level.

Of course, the encounters are pretty tight, and in order to hit that mark, you not only pretty much have to hit EVERY encounter and trap and peril in the adventure, but also deal with at least about a dozen vine horrors. On the other hand, if you've played through the previous two adventures, your characters are probably above the minimum of 10,000 XP to be 5th level anyway, so that should give you some room.

In any case, there's certainly enough XP to level to 7th from "Sea Wyvern's Wake," but it's easy to miss chunks. What to do in this case? I suggest adding in some story awards. If a PC manages to befriend/fall in love with an NPC, give the party a CR award equal to that NPC's CR. Likewise, if the PCs manage to uncover a NPC's secrets or manage to do something like utterly humiliate Avner, give them a CR award equal to that NPC's CR. If the PCs had a big roleplay session on Renkrue, give them a CR 5 award. If the PCs played a key role in navigating either storm, give them a CR 6 award. Or expand the adventure; the trip to either of the forts can stand to have a redcap encounter or a blackscale lizardfolk encounter, or perhaps as the ships pass Ruja, a roc swoops down to attack.

OR: do it the simple way. Give them each 5,000 XP when they finish with Tamoachan (which should level them up to 6th), and then another 6,000 when they finish the adventue.


"OR: do it the simple way. Give them each 5,000 XP when they finish with Tamoachan (which should level them up to 6th), and then another 6,000 when they finish the adventure."

love that!


As a matter of fact I estimated between 11,500 and 12,000 experience each(not counting stat bonuses) at the end of the Bullywug Gambit.

I noted the risks of counting on wanderers, from none arriving to a crowd so vast that no one can understand why colonization would be plausible at this time.

I also noted not only that some monsters will inevitably escape but that one or more NPCs will be along for many encounters, taking their share of the experience. Lirith for any attacks on the ship, Urol in Tamoachan, and so forth.

Thus I presume that between 10 and 20 percent of the available experience won't go to the party.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Monsters that escape shouldn't rob the PCs of XP; the PCs still defeated the monster and "won" the encounter, so they should still get full XP. If the escaped monster comes back and attacks them again and they defeat it again, they probably shouldn't be able to double dip its XP, but the first time counts if they kill it, capture it, or drive it off.

I'd also recomend not including NPCs in the picture when dividing up XP. They help, sure, but they're not nearly as much help as a cohort, and cohorts don't "steal" XP from the PCs. Likewise, the PCs shouldn't be penalized for XP simply because the adventure's story gives them some NPC help. Of course, if the NPCs were actually on par with the PCs in power, it'd be a different story, but the NPCs in Sea Wyvern are about half the power of the PCs.

And in any event, keep in mind that the next adventrue DOES requrie 7th level PCs. If they don't earn enough to reach 7th by the time "Here there be Monsters" begins, either send them on a side trek or just give them the XP.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Since I have 5 PCs I'm hoping they are a little light on XP when they get to Tamoachan. Because if so, I plan to drop them right into C1:The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan back from the early 80s. There's a 3.5 coversion at:
http://www.enworld.org/downloads/index.php?cid=8

You'll have to join the site (it's free) to get it, though.


Drawdy wrote:

Since I have 5 PCs I'm hoping they are a little light on XP when they get to Tamoachan. Because if so, I plan to drop them right into C1:The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan back from the early 80s. There's a 3.5 coversion at:

http://www.enworld.org/downloads/index.php?cid=8

You'll have to join the site (it's free) to get it, though.

I'm a member, I think (I'm logged in), and I see a bunch of conversions, but not that one.


I don't want to hijack this thread but my players just fought the flotsam ooze and are heading for Tamoachan. The next session will be run with only three of them present and so only three PCs accompanied by Lirith Veldirose will explore the ruins: Barbarian 4, Rogue 6 and Cleric 3/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 1 (qualified for prestige class by taking a certain feat). Do you think they have a good chance to survive and be successfull?

Contributor

Aureus wrote:
I don't want to hijack this thread but my players just fought the flotsam ooze and are heading for Tamoachan. The next session will be run with only three of them present and so only three PCs accompanied by Lirith Veldirose will explore the ruins: Barbarian 4, Rogue 6 and Cleric 3/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 1 (qualified for prestige class by taking a certain feat). Do you think they have a good chance to survive and be successfull?

>)


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Sben wrote:
Drawdy wrote:

Since I have 5 PCs I'm hoping they are a little light on XP when they get to Tamoachan. Because if so, I plan to drop them right into C1:The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan back from the early 80s. There's a 3.5 coversion at:

http://www.enworld.org/downloads/index.php?cid=8

You'll have to join the site (it's free) to get it, though.

I'm a member, I think (I'm logged in), and I see a bunch of conversions, but not that one.

Crud, you're right. At first I wondered if they have removed it but then I looked on my hard drive and it's not there either. I had thought about it a couple of months ago (someone else on here posted the original suggestion) and I must have imagined I had the conversion. Well, it looks like I'll need to start working on a conversion then! When (and if) I get it done I'll post it on that web site and let everybody know. Sorry folks.


I'm as anal retentive as the next guy, but come on. You're really taking the time to go through the adventure, add up all the XP, and see if it works out? They need to be 7th level for the nexxt adventure. If there is not enough XP, give them more however you like. If they have too much, then give them less.


James Jacobs wrote:
OR: do it the simple way. Give them each 5,000 XP when they finish with Tamoachan (which should level them up to 6th), and then another 6,000 when they finish the adventue.

Would it be at all possible to add this for every adventure in the magazine from now on? It would take up a total word count of, like, maybe ten, and would make life MUCH easier for people like me who really don't see a difference between 50,000 xp and 52,513 xp.


Erik Goldman wrote:
Would it be at all possible to add this for every adventure in the magazine from now on? It would take up a total word count of, like, maybe ten, and would make life MUCH easier for people like me who really don't see a difference between 50,000 xp and 52,513 xp.

My feeling is if your going to join one of those radical fringe D&D cults that delve into unchartered, borderline heretical, practices like giving out XP without consulting a chart in the DMG then you should get your XP fix on a thread on the web or maybe in the online download.


Erik Goldman wrote:
Would it be at all possible to add this for every adventure in the magazine from now on? It would take up a total word count of, like, maybe ten, and would make life MUCH easier for people like me who really don't see a difference between 50,000 xp and 52,513 xp.

Dungeon already does include that in almost every adventure of the adventure path. In the most recent issue, for instance, p29 says, "The PCs should be 11th level when they begin 'The Lightless Depths.' They should gain enough experience to advance to 12th by the time they reach Golismorga, and to 13th by the end of the adventure." This really isn't much different from saying, "Give the PCs 12,000xp once they reach point A and 13,000xp when they complete the adventure.


Kobold Lord wrote:
Dungeon already does include that in almost every adventure of the adventure path.

Doesn't help with non-AP, though. I mean, really, once we know where the xp table is and how to use it, isn't it an act of masochism for 1,000 of us to keep tallying on a calculator when one editor could do the same (and probably already has)?


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
My feeling is if your going to join one of those radical fringe D&D cults that delve into unchartered, borderline heretical, practices like giving out XP without consulting a chart in the DMG then you should get your XP fix on a thread on the web or maybe in the online download.

Yeah, I quit flagellating myself this week, too.


I'm cranky because I already posted this yesterday but somehow it did not take to the board. <grumbles>

As I see it there is one area needing some improvement and one which would be a useful thing to do.

On the issue of experience, random dice obviously runs the risk of no wanderers, ie, none of the added experience needed. Not to mention the risk of so many encounters doing serious harm to the credibility of a trade route being opened.

I would suggest a set number of encounters, including one or two deliberately non-hostile encounters where experience is awarded for good role-playing and even one where magic can be traded for or earned for some good deeds

In addition, to avoid the feeling of randomness, note the location where a community was destroyed by lizardmen but the lizzies are all long gone. I'm sure most of us were able to play with the PCs and give a good feeling of imminent attack but...

Instead I would suggest a running battle for the ship, with at least two patrols of lizardmen(or allies), a third encounter of predominantly officer-types whose presence can justify some magic and portable treasure, and a final patrol to be avoided if the PCs appear to have handled matters well(minimal ship damage and crew losses).

Further, note that the Jade Ravens have more magic in Farshore than in Bullywug Gambit and Lavinia has substantially more. If Lavinia is actually carrying some extra magic for trade or for rewarding her loyal mercenaries you can certainly use the defeat of many of the marauding lizardmen to justify a reward for the party. Alternately she could simply trade for some potions and scrolls.

Anyone want to offer ideas as to the encounters, magic acquired, rewards and so forth?


I don't ignore random monster tables, but I don't make them random either. I take the table, pick a reasonable encounter or two, and incorporate it into the adventure at an appropriate point.

This makes planning a lot easier ahead of time, as well as keeps the players on their toes. Encounters shouldn't be restricted to the numbers, anything can happen at any time.

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