Just curious if any players out there have tried to play an Olman PC. What class and alignment did they choose?
One of the PCs was vaguely toying with the idea of taking Leadership and attracting an Olman cohort, but that's as far as we've gone in that direction. I'd also be interested to hear how it's worked out for those who've done it.
Well, my wife is considering swapping out her aventi druid for an olman ranger. Its funny how actual roleplaying is sometimes the worst thing for our group. The party sorc isn't very superstitious, and the party fighter looks to the sorc like a father figure. So both of them kind of turned up their noses at my wife's druid's skill at fortune telling via astrology (big part of character concept). Which effectively felt like they were turning their noses up at her. She hasn't felt like part of the party for a while, so she's considering a new character. That, and the druid is kind of superfluous behind a large sized fighter, a melee cleric, and a (mostly) melee sorceror. Its hard for her to contribute to combat, because the others crowd the battlefield and are just better at melee. If she wildshapes, she can contribute, but the time that takes makes it even worse, because the rest of the party usually finishes the enemy off in 2 to 3 rounds. Spending a round to wildshape is half of combat.
So the idea is an Olman Ranger, with emphasis on poison use. The ranger uses a doublebow, and is the last remaining survivor of the Elk clan (in my game, the clan totems have changed over the years, with some of the inner island tribes clinging to the old totems).
When the savage tide hit the Isle of Dread earlier, and the demons came into Thanaclan, the ancestors of the elk tribe managed to buy the other tribes time by holding off some of the demonic host. They did this through heavy losses and by sealing the worst of the group they fought into a gem: an elite, advanced Arrow Demon (MM3) named Kriveda. Kriveda had dealt them a terrible blow by assuming incorporeal form, posessing, and transforming the best warrior of the Elk Clan, Mahalikqua.
They finally managed to imprison him in a gem, but his hold in this reality was already strong, tethered by his grip on a mortal body. So the gem was warded, and has since been passed down, as an amulet, through the family line of Mahalikqua. The Elk Clan stayed in the island mainland, and gave up worship of the gods, who's betrayal they had seen firsthand in the form of the demonic assault.
Now, in the present, my wife's character was next in line to receive the amulet, but not for a few more years, when she was better trained to resist the demon's insidious will. But the fogs have come, and this time, terrible energies came with them, reducing the remaining members of the Elk Clan into savage brutes. The current holder of the amulet could not resist control, and was already in the throes of transformation when his daughter returned from hunting. Knowing what she had to do, she took the amulet from her father's twisting body, and put it on her own neck. She left to rest and deal with her loss in the saftey of a freindly tribe of phanatons, but she knows she can not stay there.
Now she seeks to find a new home, and perhaps a way to destroy the demon once and for all. And if the old gods could not do it, perhaps new gods could. This hope is the only thing she has to cling to, so now she searches for new gods.
Enter the rest of the PCs: a dwarven cleric, a human frostmage, and an ice troll warhulk. The gods have arrived. (Yes, she was watching El Dorado when she got the idea.)
I'd also like to try to use Meso-American weapons like clubs with the blades of stone set in them (like the Azetec).
What do you think that would be like for damage. Exotic weapon?
That's called a macahuitl (or macana)--it's really just a club with obsidian shards running down the sides. I wouldn't make it an exotic weapon, probably just mimic the morningstar but dealing slashing/bludgeoning damage.
Having the Olman's be plain-Jane humans doesn't seem very exotic to me. Anybody have suggesstions on an alternate race that could be used as the Olmans?
Simply don't make 'em plain-Jane. Use the Jungle Races for some ideas on changing humans into a more jungle-oriented race. Give them a +2 Dex/-2 Int to reflect the need for Dexterity-related skills in their culture but lack of advancement (or actually, the loss of previous advancement) in Intelligence-related areas. Use a Flaw to impose cultural item use restrictions (so they'll only use weapons/armor/etc. appropriate to the Olman, i.e. made from natural materials like leather, wood, and obsidian) and in it's place allow the character a free culturally-appropriate feat (Alertness, Animal Affinity, Endurance, Run, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy). If you make the Olman weapons Exotic, definitely give them Racial Weapon Familiarity with these.
These are some of the things I did for my Olman-like characters (I'm running the game in Mystara, so the characters are Atruaghin (Native American) and Azcan (Aztec)). Seemed to work fairly well.
I've thought about this as well. My solution is to give them some racial traits to set them apart. They are still humans, but would have the following:
+2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
*Weapon proficiency with a small number of exotic weapons that suit the cultural flavor of the Olmans
+2 racial bonus to Hide, Knowledge (nature), and Survival checks
*There are a number of weapons on pg. 154 of Complete Warrior that would suit them - the tortoise blade, warmace, greatspear, blowgun & greater blowgun, barbed bolas (regular bolas are in the PHB and also suit them well), boomerang, and possibly even the greatbow.
Edit: Erian_7 must have been typing away at the same time I was :) I like the ideas he had, too. +2 Con/-2 Int OR +2 Dex/-2 Int would both work well.
I also like the suggestion of giving them a +2 racial bonus on Fort saves against poison.
Tiefling olmans could have the blood of the Xibalbans coursing through their veins. Also, a shifter could trace his ancestry back to older times, when jaguar knights wore the spotted pelt in battle.
Nice idea. The problem would be that they would never fit into a regular Olman community. They have enough superstitious fears arleady to live peacefully with a semi-demonic person.
However... this is exactly what might make a great hook for introducing such a character. You know, ostricized from his people, living alone out in the wilds, staying one step ahead of the monsters roaming around the place. That kind of a PC could make a great tracker, guide, local expert... but you wouldn't want to bring him around the Olmans.
They finally managed to imprison him in a gem, but his hold in this reality was already strong, tethered by his grip on a mortal body. So the gem was warded, and has since been passed down, as an amulet, through the family line of Mahalikqua.
This reminds me of the old Greyhawk novel Artifact of Evil. Very cool.
hihi, I have a player who wants to be a slave oriented character in this campaign.
I suggested him to play an Olman character. And he told me about the Neanderthals from Frostburn book.
They are humans with some barbarian blood, they are suposed to be in winter-weather places. But I think that they could fit for a wild olman character.
What do u think?
Nanmaniac
I'd also like to try to use Meso-American weapons like clubs with the blades of stone set in them (like the Azetec). What do you think that would be like for damage. Exotic weapon?
As the writer of the upcoming Aztec pantheon articles, I reccomend treating the macahuitl as a longsword. Its wielded pretty much the same way. The wounds aren't as deep, but they aren't as clean either. According to one account, a Aztec warrior decapitated a horse with a macahuitl.
Upkeep - having to replace lost stone blades - isn't much more onerous than upkeep on a longsword - sanding, filing, and oiling.
I wonder how those stone blades stay in the weapon... some kind of resin?
Spear throwers could also be nice for Olman PCs.
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Tiefling olmans could have the blood of the Xibalbans coursing through their veins. Also, a shifter could trace his ancestry back to older times, when jaguar knights wore the spotted pelt in battle.Nice idea. The problem would be that they would never fit into a regular Olman community. They have enough superstitious fears arleady to live peacefully with a semi-demonic person.
However... this is exactly what might make a great hook for introducing such a character. You know, ostricized from his people, living alone out in the wilds, staying one step ahead of the monsters roaming around the place. That kind of a PC could make a great tracker, guide, local expert... but you wouldn't want to bring him around the Olmans.
Such is the legacy of a civilization whose leaders, blinded by their hubris, did traffic in arts arcane beyond their knowing. Down through the ages their scions are tainted by the mistakes of their forefathers. Their limbs stretch and contort into forms unimagined by gods of saner physics.
They wear the stigmata. They bear the burden of unjust designs hammered out centuries before their conception.
Such is the legacy of a civilization whose leaders, blinded by their hubris, did traffic in arts arcane beyond their knowing. Down through the ages their scions are tainted by the mistakes of their forefathers. Their limbs stretch and contort into forms unimagined by gods of saner physics.
They wear the stigmata. They bear the burden of unjust designs hammered out centuries before their conception.
Whoa... That's impressive.
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Yes I just rolled up an Olman monk from Renkrue, the last village the Sea Wyvern stops at on the way to the Isle of Dread.He was a Brotherhood slave that escaped and the Party just found him in Fortgreen rock. He is Lawful Neutral.
Just curious if any players out there have tried to play an Olman PC. What class and alignment did they choose?
I hear there is a pretty kewl article in Dragon #352 (the Savage Tidings for that issue) that offers some interesting Olman type stuff. Just saying.
I reccomend treating the macahuitl as a longsword. Its wielded pretty much the same way. The wounds aren't as deep, but they aren't as clean either. According to one account, a Aztec warrior decapitated a horse with a macahuitl.
Easily possible; obsidian is volcanic glass (no crystal structure), so when it fractures, it can be sharp to a molecular level (although brittle). But looking at pictures, those things were BIG; that much wood has to weight a fair amount. Bastard swords, maybe?
But looking at pictures, those things were BIG; that much wood has to weight a fair amount. Bastard swords, maybe?
According to the wikipedia entry, they have been three to four feet long, but with widely varying sizes also in use (from the 25 inch example to a two-handed type "as tall as a man"). The "standard" size would probably be as wieldy as a baseball bat, I think. I would rather see it as a club with sharp edges (or mace, or morning star) than as a sword. Imagine a baseball bat fitted with razor blades along it - it would probably be slashing and crushing at the same time. (And will leave nasty wounds...)
Stefan
There were likely at least two "standard" versions of this weapon, one-handed and two-handed. The larger variety may have been 5-6' long, while the smaller would have been in the 3' range. I'd treat the larger version as a greatclub (and so is Martial versus the smaller one being Simple) that deals slashing and bludgeoning damage.
Treating the macahuitl as equal to a longsword seems a bit off to me because, well, the Aztec and other American tribes were simply not as advanced in weaponry as the Europeans. That's one reason that got beaten so badly. Of course, the difference between my earlier suggestion (morningstar) and a longsword is just the 19-20 threat range.
Other Aztec weapons/armor, and my interpretation of them:
Weapons
Tematlatl: Sling
Atlatl and tlacochtli: javelin thrower and javelin--Exotic weapon, increases range and damage of javelin)
Tlahuitolli and Mitl/Yaomitl: likely a longbow (not composite) and arrow/war arrow (fire-hardened, barbed, lower range but greater damage)
Tepoztopilli: Longpear (6-7' wooden haft with up to 5' obsidian blade)
Quauhololli: Club (wooden, rounded head with curved handle)
Huitzauhqui: Morningstar (as Quauhololli with embedded obsidian blades)
Macuahuitzoctli: Mace (as Quauhololli with protruding knobs and pointed tip)
Armor/Shields
Yaochimalli: Light shield (animal hide or woven palm leaf shield)
Otlachimalli: Light shield (woven cane shield with cotton padding)
Cuauhchimalli: Heavy shield (wooden shield)
Ichcahuipilli: Padded armor (unspun cotton mounted to leather, about 1" thick)
Clothing for Battle (animal skins/feathers used to communicate warrior’s status)
Tlahuitzli: Tabard
Ehuatl: Tunic
Matemecatl: armbands worn by elite warriors
Cotzehuatl: greaves worn by elite warriors
Matzopetztli: wristlets worn by elite warriors
Pamitl: War banner worn by elite warriors
EDIT: Stebehil got in while I was typing...
I wonder how those stone blades stay in the weapon... some kind of resin?
Guanno (although the exact type escapes me at the moment).
Treating the macahuitl as equal to a longsword seems a bit off to me because, well, the Aztec and other American tribes were simply not as advanced in weaponry as the Europeans.
Differently advanced; they didn't have iron as readily available as the Europeans. The macahuitl (when used to kill, as opposed to capture) was designed to cut. One could argue it crushed as well as slashed, but the same could be said of many longer swords (greatswords were rarely sharp, 'cause they didn't need to be).
In shape, the macahuitl was more like a sword than a club as well. More like a cricket bat swung sideways than a baseball bat with nails in it.
Differently advanced; they didn't have iron as readily available as the Europeans. The macahuitl (when used to kill, as opposed to capture) was designed to cut. One could argue it crushed as well as slashed, but the same could be said of many longer swords (greatswords were rarely sharp, 'cause they didn't need to be).
I'd argue against differently advanced in the area of warfare. They were indeed ahead of Europeans in some areas (such as astronomy), but their weaponry and armor were most definitely not advanced in any way. They're Stone Age, with no advanced design for protective items and thus no need for the "arms race" to penetrate better armor.
I agree with the greatsword rarely being sharp--modern fantasy has romanticized what was really a big, metal bar with a sword hilt. I don't want the macahuitl to suffer from this same fate, but at the same time I don't want to get into weapon breakage and such. I'm going with B/S damage and a lower damage output rather than integrating more realistic impacts of using this weapon in a fantasy game--unless enchanted, those obsidian edges will quickly shatter when used against metal armor (and possibly creatures with a high natural armor), rendering the weapon near useless for cutting.
In shape, the macahuitl was more like a sword than a club as well. More like a cricket bat swung sideways than a baseball bat with nails in it.
A baseball bat with nails, actually, would be more similar to a huitzauhqui.
I hear there is a pretty kewl article in Dragon #352 (the Savage Tidings for that issue) that offers some interesting Olman type stuff. Just saying.
Wow, let's see if they'll show us some new traits for a human race, new feats or a new race class!!
By the way, is this messageboard about an olman race or an olman weapon? (hehe)I'd love reading some words about having a wild olman as a Neanderthal race class...
Thanks in advance
Nanmaniac
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I agree with the greatsword rarely being sharp
I'm sorry, but I do believe that both of you are grievously misrepresenting the greatsword.
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I came close to playing one. Decided on a Cloistered Cleric though instead, may still play one if things go badly in HTBM. I was going to play him as a Druid/Vermin Keeper (PrC from Underdark), had an idea of making him believe that the giant vermin on the island were another group of gods that should be worshipped and respected. He was outcast from his tribe for his radical beliefs and strange behavior. I was also tossing around the idea of an Olman Spirit Shaman, but never fleshed anything out.
I'm sorry, but I do believe that both of you are grievously misrepresenting the greatsword.
That would actually be more appropriately a claymore (bastard sword in D&D mechanics).
A greatsword, when we're talking about the 6+ feet, two-handed weapons of devastation, is more akin to these:
16th Century Two-Handed sword and Flamberge
They were indeed sharp in their ultimate Renaissance incarnations, but a footman (they were not typically wielded from a mount) would more likely use it for thrusting than slashing (a thrust being more likely to penetrate heavy armor). Thus the sharpness of the cutting edge was nowhere near as important as the tip. There are accounts of the weapon being used to cut through pike hafts, but these are dubious, considering the pike would more likely bounce out of the way than cut in half. This effect, of course, was just as good as the two-hander could be brought back to bear faster for a killing thrust.
Speaking of dubious and back to the Aztec weapons, the account of a macahuitl severing a horse's head is in that category as well--cutting through the flesh, muscle, and bone of such a large creature in one swipe would be an almost super-human feat. The account is along these lines (from Bernal Diaz del Castillo, one of Hernando Cortés’s conquistadors):
"Pedro de Moron, was a very good horseman, and as he charged with three other horsemen into the ranks of the enemy the Indians seized hold of his lance and he was not able to drag it away, and others gave him cuts with their broadswords, and wounded him badly, and then they slashed at the mare, and cut her head off at the neck so that it hung by the skin, and she fell dead."
That sounds to me like they mobbed the guy, held him in place with his lance, then hacked him and his horse up. I see no strong statement there that the horse was beheaded in one blow...
And I found some very nice pics of this weapon from a fellow that recreates them:
Weird double post thingy...
If you are modeling the Olmans after Meso-Americans, don't give the Olmans -2 intelligence or associate them with Neanderthals. The real world Meso-Americans had a civilization that was in some ways very advanced, such as astroly, mathematics, architecture and certain forms of engineering, even though it was ultimately not as effective at resisting conquest by the Conquistadors' disease and advanced warfare. At least don't give them -2 Intelligence if you have players of Meso-American descent in your group. I know I might take issue with that if a DM in a game I was playing in did it.
If you are modeling the Olmans after Meso-Americans, don't give the Olmans -2 intelligence or associate them with Neanderthals.
I´m on your side there. It is discriminating to real-world people, as Neanderthals are generally viewed as a primitive, stupid and nearly under-human race (which is not true, but prejudices stick). And -2 Int puts them in the area of half orcs and such.
From a gaming POV, there was a ruling that human races did not get any modifications to their stats (or maybe +1 or -1 at most), which makes sense to me, as all humans are the "same race", cosmetic differences aside. You could give them a lowered save against "foreign diseases" to reflect that susceptibility, and make metal-based skills and crafts (and riding) non-available initially to reflect the mesoamerican culture. Oh, and consider their free skill points at first level to be mandatory for cultural-dependendant skills, which may differ according to social status.
In general, to reflect cultural and minor genetical differences, try using flaws and the free feat and skill points humans get, but do not fiddle with stat modifications.
just my 2c.
Stefan
Treating the macahuitl as equal to a longsword seems a bit off to me because, well, the Aztec and other American tribes were simply not as advanced in weaponry as the Europeans.Differently advanced; they didn't have iron as readily available as the Europeans.
Less advanced, in one crucial matter. A macahuitl (or sword) requires training and guts to use. A gun requires neither.
My initial response giving the Olman racial ability mods was in repsonse to a request for a new race:
Having the Olman's be plain-Jane humans doesn't seem very exotic to me. Anybody have suggesstions on an alternate race that could be used as the Olmans?
It's definitely not meant to be derogatory to those of Native heritage (as I am of such heritage). But if a DM is looking to make the Olman distinct from humans, ability modifiers is one very easy way to do that.
My perspective for the Olman's is not the highly advanced society they once possessed (that would be comparable to the Mayan and Aztec, for instance) but rather the devastated, fragmented remnants of that society living centuries after this civilization collapsed. These people no longer possess the advanced knowledge their Olman ancestors once mastered.
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I´m on your side there. It is discriminating to real-world people, as Neanderthals are generally viewed as a primitive, stupid and nearly under-human race (which is not true, but prejudices stick). And -2 Int puts them in the area of half orcs and such.just my 2c.
Stefan
you think people would understand that by now with the everrunning gieco commercials with "so easy, a caveman could do it"
Back to the OT, I'm playing an Olman barbarian in a ST game over at ENW. I'm playing a spear-throwing, squat, tattooed barbarian who will (if he survives the current round of ravenous zombies) most likely end up as a Reaping Mauler (thanks to all the lovely grappling challenges).
Really, it's just a matter of roleplay. You don't need New and Nifty stats to create a superstitious jungle tribesman. :)
I see no strong statement there that the horse was beheaded in one blow...
I, too, doubt that he decapitated the horse in one blow. But it still illustrates the cutting power of the macahuitl.
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Back to the OT, I'm playing an Olman barbarian in a ST game over at ENW. I'm playing a spear-throwing, squat, tattooed barbarian who will (if he survives the current round of ravenous zombies) most likely end up as a Reaping Mauler (thanks to all the lovely grappling challenges).
Really, it's just a matter of roleplay. You don't need New and Nifty stats to create a superstitious jungle tribesman. :)
Avoiding going off-topic again, I agree with Gwydion. Appropriate selections of skills and feats along with good role playing and backstory are really all you need.
And, if you have access to the Greyhawk regional feats from a couple older issues of Dragon, there are some aimed specifically at Olman characters (Atlan's Mark, Badge of Bondage, Jungle Fighter, and Raider's Spirit). Nice stuff. I wonder if there's any chance that the Paizo guys could offer those up as a PDF for download (whether free or not).
How does one pronouce "macahuitl"?
Didn't some Meso-American people have military orders (Jaguar Knights?) or am I just thinking Maztica?
I think the Olmans would be a more intelligent people and not just a bunch of 'Cave Man OGG cut outs'. Unless of course you wanted to create 2 cultures of Olman. Those who dwell on the Isle of Dread and those who dwell else where. Perhaps those on the Isle of Dread have become more kin to the Skull Islanders of King Kong???
How does one pronouce "macahuitl"?
I believe it is "mah ka WE tl" (not sure on the accent placement)
Didn't some Meso-American people have military orders (Jaguar Knights?) or am I just thinking Maztica?
They sure did. They were warrior groups named typically after local animals, jaguar and eagle being the most commonly known.
I think the Olmans would be a more intelligent people and not just a bunch of 'Cave Man OGG cut outs'. Unless of course you wanted to create 2 cultures of Olman. Those who dwell on the Isle of Dread and those who dwell else where. Perhaps those on the Isle of Dread have become more kin to the Skull Islanders of King Kong???
They're not cave men by any means, but they do need something to indicate a lack of advancement compared to others (if we're still looking for an alternate build to represent them).
I don't think I like current totems/ tribes that the Olmans have (elk, tiger, etc.).
And, if you have access to the Greyhawk regional feats from a couple older issues of Dragon, there are some aimed specifically at Olman characters (Atlan's Mark, Badge of Bondage, Jungle Fighter, and Raider's Spirit). Nice stuff. I wonder if there's any chance that the Paizo guys could offer those up as a PDF for download (whether free or not).
Azzy,
Do you remember which issue that is? I know I don't own it, but I wouldn't mind adding it to my collection. :)
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Azzy,
Do you remember which issue that is? I know I don't own it, but I wouldn't mind adding it to my collection. :)
Yep. :) The Greyhawk regional feats are split between two issues--315 and 319. All four Olman "regional" feats are in issue 315 (which is still available as a printed issue--319, sadly, is only available as a PDF).
I don't think I like current totems/ tribes that the Olmans have (elk, tiger, etc.).
Yeah, those hearken back to the original X1 module names (Elk, Hawk, Tiger, and Sea Turtle in the 1981 version; don't remember if they changed them in subsequent printings). The elk especially doesn't mesh with the geography. Could be switched out for a closer Aztec/Mayan feel (Hawk to Eagle, Tiger to Jaguar) or to dinosaur equivalents (perhaps triceratops for elk, but the Olma would call them Three Horns or something).
My initial response giving the Olman racial ability mods was in repsonse to a request for a new race:
Having the Olman's be plain-Jane humans doesn't seem very exotic to me. Anybody have suggesstions on an alternate race that could be used as the Olmans?It's definitely not meant to be derogatory to those of Native heritage (as I am of such heritage). But if a DM is looking to make the Olman distinct from humans, ability modifiers is one very easy way to do that.
Erian_7, I did not mean to be a know-it-all. I just thought that zoroaster had a point there, and tried to show another way of modifying the olmans to reflect the (percieved) real-world parallel more closely. Sorry if I sounded overbearing.
Stefan
And, if you have access to the Greyhawk regional feats from a couple older issues of Dragon, there are some aimed specifically at Olman characters (Atlan's Mark, Badge of Bondage, Jungle Fighter, and Raider's Spirit). Nice stuff. I wonder if there's any chance that the Paizo guys could offer those up as a PDF for download (whether free or not).
The pdfs will ony be available when the printed copies have sold out, as James has pointed out several times on these boards. This can take days or decades, no one knows...
Stefan
Yeah, those hearken back to the original X1 module names (Elk, Hawk, Tiger, and Sea Turtle in the 1981 version; don't remember if they changed them in subsequent printings). The elk especially doesn't mesh with the geography. Could be switched out for a closer Aztec/Mayan feel (Hawk to Eagle, Tiger to Jaguar) or to dinosaur equivalents (perhaps triceratops for elk, but the Olma would call them Three Horns or something).
I don´t think they changed. I have the orange cover version from the expert set, and I remember these names as well. The ideas for changing these names are good. I think they were included in the adventure for nostalgia reasons in its original version.
Stefan
According to Issue #114, they haven't changed. AFAIK, the STAP villages use the same names.
Erian_7, I did not mean to be a know-it-all. I just thought that zoroaster had a point there, and tried to show another way of modifying the olmans to reflect the (percieved) real-world parallel more closely. Sorry if I sounded overbearing.
Stefan
Oh, I didn't take it as a know-it-all/overbearing response. I agree that the human bonus skills/feats is enough to customize them to most any culture. I was more concerned with folks thinking the suggestion might be derogatory on my part. A lot of times I'm breezing through these threads during a break or something, so my responses might seem more clipped/irritated than I intend. It generally takes quite a lot to irritate me! ;^)