I know we have some current and former members of the military on these boards, as well as a few Israelis, who might find this article I pulled off ynetnews.com interesting:
Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a low security clearance
By Hanan Greenberg
Published: 02.28.05, 14:17
Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
“They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says.
Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status.
So if you like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist.
Dungeons and Dragons (also known as D&D) has been a popular roleplaying game for decades and is based on a fantasy world.
One player assumes the role of “Dungeon Master,” which entails directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others select from a large selection of characters that includes warriors, magicians, dwarfs and thieves.
The game focuses on the results of decisions made by the players as determined by the roll of the dice.
In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and go out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game, along with the requisite equipment of swords (not real) to play outside, usually in the forest or woods. Most D&D players do not don costumes, and participants in such costume games are called "LARPers" (for live-action role playing).
Thousands of youth and teens in Israel play D&D, fighting dragons and demons using their rich imaginations. The game has also increased in popularity due to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.
However the IDF does not approve of this unusual hobby and prevents D&D players from being considered for sensitive army positions by labeling them with low security clearance.
"We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from reality," a security source told Ynet.
Game enthusiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former Soviet Union, where the game is very popular.
In Israel there are thousands of players, between the ages 16 to 35, and include lawyers, high-tech workers and businessmen. Matan, 22, and Igor, a 21-year-old IDF soldier, organize activities for groups of players. Soon hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy.
"It's not a game of winners and losers," Matan says,
"but rather entry into another world with stories and plot changes."
He is aware of the game's problematic reputation, especially in the IDF. The army is not indifferent to the unique hobby and is trying to locate soldiers who in their free time dress up as witches and play in forests.
A security official tells Ynet there are specific criteria for deciding the level of a soldier's security clearance.
"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."
More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says.
Igor says exposing soldiers who play the game could result in the soldiers being sent to a military psychologist or even being kicked out of the army.
"Exposing them could also harm their chances at being accepted to other military courses," he says.
Matan says he has personally met soldiers whose military career was harmed due to their connection to the game. Most soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in the army, he says.
"These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality - elements which lower a person's security clearance, allowing them to serve in the army, but not in sensitive positions."
Unsurprisingly, Igor, Matan and thier friends do not approve of this IDF policy. They say the game is only a colorful, non-violent hobby.
"Many people who play served in the most classified units," David says. "They are intelligent and any attempt to label them as 'weird' is incorrect and unfair."
But in the struggle between the gameplayers and the Defense Minister, the latter wins - or at least this is the case in the real world of the IDF.
This was pretty thouroughly discussed and disected in this thread:
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/archives/funnyAtti tudesToGaming
I'm glad at least that the article is not anti-D&D. I'm sure we've all seen stories far more ill-informed than that one.
Do they give low security clearance to soldiers who read novels too? Just wondering...
I'm glad at least that the article is not anti-D&D. I'm sure we've all seen stories far more ill-informed than that one.
Do they give low security clearance to soldiers who read novels too? Just wondering...
...or go to plays, or watch movies... or watch the nightly news, which is probably more detached from "reality" than most schizophrenics. Your point is well taken, On both counts.
Armies are not about freewill.
GGG
I'm not sure that I trust the article, or at least its sources. Players are considered to be susceptible to influence? Last time I checked, that's what the military is all about. You know, LEFT RIGHT, LEFT RIGHT LEFT. That whole brain washing situation.
New recruits being specifically asked whether they play d&d? I find that hard to believe, unless they ask another ten pages of similarly esoteric questions. Do you still watch sunday cartoons? Have you at any point in your life dressed as a woman? Do you listen to 'punk' music? I mean heck, unless I'm mistaken they don't even ask whether new recruits are gay.
My 2cp,
Though someone may have already brought up these points during the first discussion.
I'm not sure that I trust the article, or at least its sources. Players are considered to be susceptible to influence?
Not quite. Statistically, the group that played had more people that were susceptible that the group that did not play. Lot's of us get offended, but the IDF was just counting.
New recruits being specifically asked whether they play d&d? I find that hard to believe, unless they ask another ten pages of similarly esoteric questions...
Which I'm sure is the case -- that's how these tests are done. There's probably a long list of behaviors and interests that raise flags (and lead to a psych evaluation). Based on what the article said, people aren't penalized unless a subsequent evaluation (with a psychologist) indicates a problem.
Regards,
Jack
I'm glad at least that the article is not anti-D&D. I'm sure we've all seen stories far more ill-informed than that one...
True, but I find it a bit misleading. The article said "Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons," which rather lets the reader think that D&D is unique -- that it's the only interest the IDF finds questionable.
Jack
Hoorray for tolerance and understanding! Gees... And then they wonder why some countries have been at war for hundreds of years...
This kind of attitude sickens me.
Ultradan
Since I recently discharged from the IDF where I had a very high security clearance and I am a dedicated D&D lover, I believe the task of clarifying this issue, as always, falls upon my weary shoulders:
The article was written by someone who knew very little of D&D. The army has nothing against D&D players (most of my friends are players and have responsible commissions in various units, some of them are even officers).
What the army is opposed to are LARPs (called here RD&D, R is for Real) because many of the people who play LARP in Israel are junkies or drunkards and these games are often VERY violent.
The article made a lot of noise at the time and the army sustained a lot of harsh criticism from the D&D community and various liberal groups which, in my opinion, was undeserved.
Staff Sergeant (Ret.)/ DM Uri K
I remember the orginal discussion and tried using the link posted to refresh my memory on it, but just got routed back to the board home page.
Anyway, if I remember correctly, someone posted who had been in Israeli military who affirmed that it DOES frown on soldiers playing D&D. However, his (her?.. don't remember who poster was) take on it was that it was viewed as an indicator that the person was succeptible to Western influence and that was what caused the concern. That was why it was a security concern, not simply that they think people who play D&D are having a psychotic break.
...his take on it was that it was viewed as an indicator that the person was succeptible to Western influence and that was what caused the concern.
This is total and absolute rubbish that borders on anti-Israeli propaganda! How can a western people be “susceptible to Western influence”...
It makes about as much sense as to say that the U.S or French army frowns upon western influence.What exactly do you take Israel for? North Korea? Iran? Israel IS the western influence in the east. That is why Ahmadinejad is so eager to vaporize it.
I assure you that if you ever came to Tel-Aviv you’d be hard-pressed to tell the difference between it and any other European or American city. The people here dress, work and live just like their western counterparts only we have a slightly different set of holidays and write in funny-looking letters.
I also assure you that Israel is a western-style democracy and everyone can pursue whatever hobbies, religion, music or lifestyle he likes, without the risk of being “frowned upon”. I even know some soldiers who are Wiccans or New Age and no one gives them any troubles.
This is total and absolute rubbish that borders on anti-Israeli propaganda! How can a western people be “susceptible to Western influence”...
Sure. And as mentioned in the first reply to the OP, this was already discussed here in length.
Uri, your post is quite true about Israel being quite western (and therfore the assertion above not making much sense), but... Just for the sake of respecting minorities:
I don't know how "western" most of the Sephardi feel. And what about the citizens of Ethiopian descent? Or all the Arab Jews that lived (mostly) peacefully in other countries of the Middle East before Israel was created and they had to/moved to Israel?
So, sure, the streets of Tel Aviv on a Friday night feel quite "western", but not all of Israel's citizens would identify with that qualifier. Would they?
Bocklin, feeling for significant minorities, being member of one
Sure. And as mentioned in the first reply to the OP, this was already discussed here in length.
Uri, your post is quite true about Israel being quite western (and therfore the assertion above not making much sense), but... Just for the sake of respecting minorities:
I don't know how "western" most of the Sephardi feel. And what about the citizens of Ethiopian descent? Or all the Arab Jews that lived (mostly) peacefully in other countries of the Middle East before Israel was created and they had to/moved to Israel?
So, sure, the streets of Tel Aviv on a Friday night feel quite "western", but not all of Israel's citizens would identify with that qualifier. Would they?
Bocklin, feeling for significant minorities, being member of one
First of all, there is no such thing as Arab Jews - you are either an Arab or a Jew, never both; if you happen to be a Jew born in an Arab state than you are a Spharadi.
Secondly, in the same way I could say that the U.S is not a western nation because there are many people of African or Asian descent in the U.S.Thirdly, most Siphards I know have the same values and aims as the Ashkenazim only a slightly darker skin color.
By the way, are you Israeli?
And last but not least, best leave politics out of it or the PostMonster will eat us alive...
Hi Uri,
You're right, best leave that out of Paizo's Board. ;-)
If you feel like knowing my answer, drop me a line:
stef_bocklin (at) hotmail.com
Bocklin
PS: No, I am not Israeli, but I think I'd qualify if I applied for citizenship.
Hi Uri,
You're right, best leave that out of Paizo's Board. ;-)
If you feel like knowing my answer, drop me a line:
stef_bocklin (at) hotmail.com
Bocklin
PS: No, I am not Israeli, but I think I'd qualify if I applied for citizenship.
Really? Then come to Israel. We play D&D all day and dodge missiles all night. It's a whole lot of fun! :)
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Really? Then come to Israel. We play D&D all day and dodge missiles all night. It's a whole lot of fun! :)
Uri, without getting too deep into the politics of it all, I am appalled by the lack of Western sensitivity towards Israel. If Mexico was firing rockets into Texas, Mexico would be a smoking pile of rubble in about ten seconds. Westerners, and in particular Americans, just don't grasp the enormous restraint shown by your government and your military in the interests of regional stability.
From one soldier to another, keep your head down.
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Really? Then come to Israel. We play D&D all day and dodge missiles all night. It's a whole lot of fun! :)Uri, without getting too deep into the politics of it all, I am appalled by the lack of Western sensitivity towards Israel. If Mexico was firing rockets into Texas, Mexico would be a smoking pile of rubble in about ten seconds. Westerners, and in particular Americans, just don't grasp the enormous restraint shown by your government and your military in the interests of regional stability.
From one soldier to another, keep your head down.
I agree, more than you can know, and more than I care to get into here. I'm mystified by it. My face is blue; why am I arguing with these people? They're shooting missiles. At civilian targets. I'm sorry, but if you have a scary uncle living in your house, and he's shooting at my children every day, in my back yard, with a .22, and you won't stop him, I will. I'm coming in your house.
Thanks for the support, Heathenson and DocG, it's very pleasent to know that there are still some people who don't consider Israel to be the 4th Reich...
Really? Wow.
Cross my heart!
Right on. You gotta be able to stop people shooting missiles at you for no good reason.
Tell this to my government, they seem to be rather fond of these missiles... maybe they mistake them with fireworks? That would be the only explenation for paying the very people who fire them 25 million dollars.
Merry Christmas all, by the way. May this year see the triumph of good over evil.
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Right on. You gotta be able to stop people shooting missiles at you for no good reason.Tell this to my government, they seem to be rather fond of these missiles... maybe they mistake them with fireworks? That would be the only explenation for paying the very people who fire them 25 million dollars.
Merry Christmas all, by the way. May this year see the triumph of good over evil.
Just 25 million? Sheesh!
Just 25 million? Sheesh!Right on. You gotta be able to stop people shooting missiles at you for no good reason.Tell this to my government, they seem to be rather fond of these missiles... maybe they mistake them with fireworks? That would be the only explenation for paying the very people who fire them 25 million dollars.
Merry Christmas all, by the way. May this year see the triumph of good over evil.
Hey! Imagine how many ultra-cool minis you could buy with this money.
Thanks for the support, Heathenson and DocG, it's very pleasent to know that there are still some people who don't consider Israel to be the 4th Reich...
Really? Wow.Cross my heart!
Count me in on the supporters of Israel, Uri (but you already knew that). Happy New Year and Happy Holidays.
Bah! Reality sucks as it is.
I'd sooner become detached from it than worry my ass off about it.
;)
Bah! Reality sucks as it is.
I'd sooner become detached from it than worry my ass off about it.
;)
You are a wise man indeed...
Count me in on the supporters of Israel, Uri (but you already knew that). Happy New Year and Happy Holidays.
Your support is, as always, most appriciated.
Your support is, as always, most appriciated
Trust me, there's a whole bunch of us around in Europe that support Israel. Wish my goverment would take a bit of a more pro-active stance but alas, we're traders and diplomats first, warmongers second.
And if I ever hop around that general area of the world I'll be sure to contact you for a game of D&D. ;)
I don't really want to start a political row on these boards (they are not the place for it), but let me just say that there are 2 sides to every conflict. And ESPECIALLY north americans only get one side. Isreal is no saint believe me. As a Lebanese Canadian I am certainly not a Hezbollah supporter, but to say Israel showed "restraint" is just evil man (for lack of a better word).
IF Canada occupied vermont for 20 years illegally and kidnapped hundereds of citizens (detaining some for 27 years WITHOUT even charging them), and IF some US citizens crossed the border to kidnapp SOLDIERS to exchange for their brethren then you are saying it's alright if Canada showed "restraint" by bombing red cross trucks in Dallas?? Come on guys...you are entitles to whatever beliefs (or sides in the conflict) you wish to have/take...but I'm asking we keep these dicussion off the roleplaying boards please.
Thank you, and may this new year bring peace to ALL the troubled reagions of the world.
Be safe all.
Just chiming in to support Ragnarock Raider's plea to keep these Boards clean.
There are indeed two sides of the conflict and without calling Israel "4th Reich" (i.e. without adopting an anti-Israel stance), there are many ways to qualify what has been said here.
So let's all go back to roleplaying and enjoying D&D (and eating turkey for some of us).
I wish the postmaster would just trash this thread before it degenerates.
Bocklin
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The funny thing is that every one of us could sit at a table with any others on these boards and put together a functional team of diehard companions to oust evil in the fantasy realms. We are all the same. We have the same interests in common and yet we stand on different sides of the fence and throw stones back and forth.
Governments of any type seem to be the ones pitting peoples of different nations against one another.
I wish we could all just wipe the slate clean and get our universal game on. All further arguements could be over who struck the more decisive blow against Demogorgon and not who's government did the more evil act.
Uri and Ragnorak, if I could sit at a table with you guys and toss dice in the spirit of comraderie, then I would count myself a lucky man. We are all humans and we all have the same basic desires in life. I just wish we could see beyond what our respective governments want to feed us and look to our fellow humans as brothers and sisters in a struggle to have a good life.
Peace on Earth and Good Will towards our Fellows.
FH
In that light, a friendly game of D&D prior to every diplomatic meeting?
Dungeons and Dragons; Promoting World Peace, one dead dragon at a time.
In that light, a friendly game of D&D prior to every diplomatic meeting?
Hell yeah! :D
And if I ever hop around that general area of the world I'll be sure to contact you for a game of D&D. ;)
You are most welcome, but be warned: all my players play Orcs, nasty, run-of-the-MM kind of Orcs...
While I read the first post and second two, I could really care less for the discussion. However, I must say that yes, while some D&D players can be more susceptible to outside influences, they are no more susceptible than an equal percentage on non-D&Ders. In fact, if anything I believe that D&D players are more qualified for higher positions because of the strategy, problem solving, and displacement abilities (displacement refering to the ability to put themselves in someone elses position).
I will also say the goverments views on D&D are becoming more BS. Did you know that in some prisons (I don't know which ones if not all) it actually states in the rulebook that D&D is forbidden from being played there? I know this fact because my father just got out...
Oh man!! Tell you what, it's just a BIG conspiracy that the govevernment is trying to pull to keep your attention from the real threat- DM. Yes, Dungeon Masters. You think that if we're living out of reality and stuff, it's not because the game is flawed or amazingly addicted, but because the Dm is the guy who makes you believe!! Don't you see?!? The IDF made an evil blood pact with the already evil many DM that roam the world, and their alliance can only mean one thing: DOOM!!!!!!
In fact, if anything I believe that D&D players are more qualified for higher positions because of the strategy, problem solving, and displacement abilities (displacement refering to the ability to put themselves in someone elses position).
I so often thought of that. And the same could probably be said of strategy-games players (long-live Civ!!).
Wasn't there a "play-by-mail" advert going in that direction in Dungeon lately? I thought it was quite funny: pitting a strategy-gamer against an ego-shooter guy. The first end up as a great scientist curing cancer and the other one pushing buttons as a cashier.
Bocklin