Do touch spells stack?


Dungeon Magazine General Discussion


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I'm fairly new DM'ing and can't seem to find anything to solve this for me in print, so I beg a little assistance...

If an arcane caster casts a spell such as Chill Touch at CL4, according to the way I read the spell description he casts and the effect lasts until he touches 4 individuals or creatures. It's a duration instantaneous, meaning he or she does not need to continue to concentrate. Therefore in the next round, he or she could cast Corrosive Grasp for example, and then be hitting with BOTH effects.....

Is this a correct interpretation or have I missed something? It seems a bit unbalanced, but as I said, I can't find anything to contradict.

Any and all input is appreciated!


I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure you can only "hold" one touch spell at a time. If you want to cast another one you've got to dismiss the one you have held. I think it would be a bit unbalancing to be able to hit someone with several spells in one touch.


Player's Handbook, page 176 (Duration) wrote:
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: ...If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

That's the pertinent information.

If you really want to be able to do this, though, you need to get a staff familiar (Dr 338) - it allows you to channel your touch spells through your staff, and later your staff becomes a spell storing staff. :-)

The Wandstrike feat from Complete Arcane would be another way to do it, though with less versatility (unless you're knee deep in wands).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Player's Handbook, page 176 (Duration) wrote:
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: ...If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

That's the pertinent information.

If you really want to be able to do this, though, you need to get a staff familiar (Dr 338) - it allows you to channel your touch spells through your staff, and later your staff becomes a spell storing staff. :-)

The Wandstrike feat from Complete Arcane would be another way to do it, though with less versatility (unless you're knee deep in wands).

Excellent. That was the information I couldn't find. Thanks so much!!


Peruhain is correct I think.

SRD MagicOverview wrote:


Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Edit: D'oh. Beaten to it.

Contributor

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
If you really want to be able to do this, though, you need to get a staff familiar (Dr 338) - it allows you to channel your touch spells through your staff, and later your staff becomes a spell storing staff. :-)

A regular familiar will allow you to do it in the opening round, if you set things up correctly. Basically, before combat begins, you cast your first touch spell, and allow your familiar to hold the charge. When combat begins, your familiar delivers that spell. Then you cast and delivery your second touch spell.

It's sort of like a poor man's Quicken spell - though of course it puts your familiar in a dangerous position.


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:


The Wandstrike feat from Complete Arcane would be another way to do it, though with less versatility (unless you're knee deep in wands).

Not sure where one would get all the feats but you could make a pretty interesting character by also picking up two weapon fighting and double wand wielder.

Actually, thinking about it some more, one could probably go down this route with some interesting results by multi-classing as a wizard/fighter. Hmm, not sure how good it would actually be - but I'm the DM, my villains don't need to be well designed, just interesting.

Dag nab it now I've become obsessed. If I take human I can make the multi-class uneven and maybe make a fairly potent double wand wielder that is mostly a fighter. I wander what kinds of spells would be good in the wands. Probably something that is likely to take advantage of each stereotypical weakness. So I want Will Save Wands for fighter types and Fortitude Save Wands for Rogue and Wizard Types.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Not sure where one would get all the feats but you could make a pretty interesting character by also picking up two weapon fighting and double wand weilder.

That would be pretty cool.

Craft Wand
Two-Weapon Fighting
Wandstrike
Double Wand Wielder

Toss on Reckless Wand Wielder, Touch Spell Specialization... hmmm

Level Progression:
Human Wizard (Base 15 Dex, 14 Int)
1st - Scribe Scroll, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (touch spell)
3rd - Wandstrike
5th - Craft Wand
6th - Enhance Item (wand) - Epic Level Handbook, page 114
9th - Double Wand Wielder
10th - Legendary Artisan - Eberron Campaign Setting
12th - Weapon Finesse
15th - Reckless Wand Wielder, Wand Mastery
18th - Touch Spell Specialization
20th - Extraordinary Artisan - Eberron Campaign Setting


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
So I want Will Save Wands for fighter types and Fortitude Save Wands for Rogue and Wizard Types.

Remember, you can use Wandstrike to activate wands with area effects. So Reflex Save Wands such as burning hands are viable for use against Cleric Types.


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:


Craft Wand
Two-Weapon Fighting
Wandstrike
Double Wand Wielder

Toss on Reckless Wand Wielder, Touch Spell Specialization... hmmm

Edit so that I can figure out what you just made.

Level Progression:
Human Wizard (Base 15 Dex, 14 Int)
1st -
Scribe Scroll: PHB p.99, Allows one to scribe a scroll for any spell the wizard knows.

Two-Weapon Fighting: PHB p.102, allows our wizard to use two light weapons (like a wand) at only -2 per hand.

Weapon Focus (touch spell): PHB p.102 +1 to hit with a touch spell. Would this work with a wand? Also the Wizard probably has pretty average strength but likely has an excellent Dexterity. Maybe Weapon Finesse might provide more bang for the feat. Also there is a problem here. This feat and Weapon Finesse both require +1 BAB. I don't believe a Wizard has a +1 BAB at first level.

3rd -
Wandstrike: CAr p.84 One can make touch attacks with wands that do 1d6 damage plus whatever it is the wand does. Using the wand uses a charge. No benefits to damage such as from strength, smite or sneak attack may be added to the wands damage.

5th -
Craft Wand: PHB p.92 You can craft wands using the rules for making magic items..

6th -
Enhance Item (wand) - Epic Level Handbook, page 114
I can't find this feat in the SRD and that would be my only source for Epic material.

9th -
Double Wand Wielder: CAr p.77 You can use a wand in each hand as a full round action. The off hand wand uses two charges.

10th -
Legendary Artisan - Eberron Campaign Setting
As I don't play in Ebberon I don't have a source for this feat though I believe it has to do with making cheaper magic items.

12th -
Weapon Finesse: PHB p.102 One can use their dexterity bonus in place of their strength bonus when attacking in melee combat. Now here is where I might pick up Weapon Focus (Wand) instead of acquiring this feat at 1st.

15th -
Reckless Wand Wielder: CAr p.82 Increase the caster level of the wand by +2 but this costs an extra charge.

Wand Mastery: Unsure of the source for this feat, though I know it increases a Wands DC.

18th -
Touch Spell Specialization: CAr p.83 +2 damage for a touch spell that does damage. This feat seems woefully underpowered for this level. If we had some how picked this up around 4th or 5th it would have been a sweet addition to the class but by this level and extra 2 points of damage is simply irrelevant.

20th -
Extraordinary Artisan - Eberron Campaign Setting: Another Ebberon feat I don't have access to – I would think it makes crafting magical items even cheaper.

Contributor

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:


Level Progression:
Human Wizard (Base 15 Dex, 14 Int)
1st - Scribe Scroll, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (touch spell)

Weapon Focus has a BAB pre-req of +1, so your wizard doesn't qualify. :)


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Player's Handbook, page 176 (Duration) wrote:
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: ...If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

That's the pertinent information.

If you really want to be able to do this, though, you need to

Check out "Spellflower" in the Spell Compendium.

Rez


Rezdave wrote:
Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Player's Handbook, page 176 (Duration) wrote:
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: ...If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

That's the pertinent information.

If you really want to be able to do this, though, you need to

Check out "Spellflower" in the Spell Compendium.

Rez

Spellflower coupled with Girallon's Blessing (also Spell Compendium) is a very effective combo. I just ran an encounter with a Monk 5/Abjurer 7 who specialized in touch spells (inspired by another thread on these boards, and it was de-lovely. By round five or six I had a large monk with 4 hands and two feet with two charged touch spells, stoneskin (previously cast) and a dispelling screen between him and the party. They still managed to defeat him without any casualties (dropped one PC to -7 and effectively rendered another hors de combat) but it was a very challenging fight.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Weapon Focus (touch spell): PHB p.102 +1 to hit with a touch spell. Would this work with a wand? Also the Wizard probably has pretty average strength but likely has an excellent Dexterity. Maybe Weapon Finesse might provide more bang for the feat. Also there is a problem here. This feat and Weapon Finesse both require +1 BAB. I don't believe a Wizard has a +1 BAB at first level.

Yeah, I always forget this. I remembered Weapon Finesse wouldn't work, but then had a brain fart. Not sure what else to put here, but I suppose in retrospect I would remove both Weapon Focus (touch spell) and Touch Spell Specialization.

EDIT: Legendary Artisan would be great to move here. It's prereq. is an item creation feat (yay wizards).

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

6th -

Enhance Item (wand) - Epic Level Handbook, page 114
I can't find this feat in the SRD and that would be my only source for Epic material.

Yeah, this is the 'hidden' feat, not listed in the SRD or the table in the ELH. It allows you to select a item creation feat you possess and craft that type of item using your caster level and ability scores instead of the minimum. ^^

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

10th -

Legendary Artisan - Eberron Campaign Setting
As I don't play in Ebberon I don't have a source for this feat though I believe it has to do with making cheaper magic items.

Yes. This one reduces experience costs for crafting magic items by 25%. Though since I'm moving this all the way down to 1st level, I would replace this with Extraordinary Artisan, to make crafting cheaper. (-25% gp cost)

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

12th -

Weapon Finesse: PHB p.102 One can use their dexterity bonus in place of their strength bonus when attacking in melee combat. Now here is where I might pick up Weapon Focus (Wand) instead of acquiring this feat at 1st.

I see Weapon Finesse as giving a much bigger boost than Weapon Focus (esp. since I'm dropping Touch Spell Specialization). At this level, our wizard would likely have a Dex of 17-19 - that's a nice boost, and finally covers for the TWF penalty.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Wand Mastery: Unsure of the source for this feat, though I know it increases a Wands DC.

By +2... and it also increases the effective caster level by 2! Combined with Enhance Item (wand) and Reckless Wand Wielder, this can make the zapper pretty deadly. Another feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting book.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

18th -

Touch Spell Specialization: CAr p.83 +2 damage for a touch spell that does damage. This feat seems woefully underpowered for this level. If we had some how picked this up around 4th or 5th it would have been a sweet addition to the class but by this level and extra 2 points of damage is simply irrelevant.

Yeah, not sure what I was thinking here... Perhaps replace this with Improved Two Weapon Fighting? Would that work? I mean, it would be an extra 3 charges from the off hand wand (1 from Wandstrike, 2 from Double Wand Wielder... perhaps an extra charge from Reckless Wand Wielder)... But then Double Wand Wielder is listed as a full round action, not a full attack. Thoughts? This is at 18th level, so I'd be inclined to allow it, myself.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

20th -

Extraordinary Artisan - Eberron Campaign Setting: Another Ebberon feat I don't have access to – I would think it makes crafting magical items even cheaper.

Well, I moved this down to 12th level, so... what to replace it with? This is the character's Wizard bonus feat, so it'd have to be item creation or metamagic... What about Smiting Spell (Player's Handbook II)? It effectively allows you to store a spell in a weapon for up to a minute, if you prepare it at a spell slot one level higher. Or perhaps Quicken Spell? Quicken Spell might be the way to go - that way we're not in ambiguous territory.


Just to be clear here:

Using each wand expends one charge from that wand.
Using Wandstrike expends one charge from the wand used.
Using Double Wand Wielder expends one charge from the secondary wand.
Using Reckless Wand Wielder expends one charge from each wand used.

So our zapper would expend 3 charges for each use of the primary wand and 4 for each use of the secondary wand (after receiving Reckless Wand Wielder) - and with TWF (if that would be allowed) he could potentially use the secondary wand twice per round - expending 8 charges if both attacks hit. Whew... this guy's wands are going to be SMOKING when he's done with them. If the party defeats him, they will find that his clothes are made of wands...

He would need to have some sort of Caddy Homonculus to carry around the extra wands...

"Farnswell, my 9-curse, would you? That's a good chap."


The best part is, one like that exists- I'm pretty sure it's in Magic of Eberron- don't recall the name of it, but basically it's a walking treasure chest homonculus that can produce items you store in it on request.

Off-topic: maybe I watch too much Full Metal Alchemist, but whenever someone talks about a homonculus I want to yell "WHO DID YOU TRY TO BRING BACK?! ALCHEMY DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT!"


Crap, found a flaw in the plan: Wizards can't take Wandstrike at 3rd level, due to the 4 rank Use Magic Device prerequisite. The only thing I can think of to fix this is to switch Wandstrike with Weapon Finesse - so that delays the lightning bolt smacking until 12th level. Ah well, I'm still statting it up.


Okay, here he is at level 5: linky


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Okay, here he is at level 5: linky

Interesting but the problem is this guy is going to die nearly instantly against the raging Barbarian or any of the rest of the PCs. With a mere 20 hps and an armour class of 12 his life expectancy is extremely limited.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Okay, here he is at level 5: linky
Interesting but the problem is this guy is going to die nearly instantly against the raging Barbarian or any of the rest of the PCs. With a mere 20 hps and an armour class of 12 his life expectancy is extremely limited.

Note that he does have mage armor prepared. AND, his weapon of choice? A wand of vampiric touch. If he can't seem to touch anybody with the wand before he gets seriously hurt, he's got that potion of cure light wounds. Yeah, he can go down pretty fast against even 3rd level characters (for whom he would be considered a 'boss') - At this level it would be best to have him in a group of enemies, so that he will have no more than 2 PCs on him at a time. If you want to give him a little more protection, swap out one of his burning hands for shield (and then remove identify from his spellbook).

But I'll admit - at this level he isn't very effective. He's taken Two-Weapon Fighting, but can't get any real use out of it until he picks up Wandstrike and Dual Wand Wielder. Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand and Legendary Artisan aren't combat applicable feats (though the latter two did allow him to have a 3rd-level wand as a 5th-level NPC, ever so barely).

Weapon Finesse is a saving grace for him, especially since he makes touch attacks - but it's still not an impressive attack bonus at 5th level.

Perhaps you might change his touch of idiocy out for invisibility (dropping perhaps locate object from his spellbook), cast that before combat, then have his familiar deliver a ghoul touch to the party tank to start off the battle? How about that?


I updated the NPC's spell selection as above, and added a tactics section.


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:
Crap, found a flaw in the plan: Wizards can't take Wandstrike at 3rd level, due to the 4 rank Use Magic Device prerequisite. The only thing I can think of to fix this is to switch Wandstrike with Weapon Finesse - so that delays the lightning bolt smacking until 12th level. Ah well, I'm still statting it up.

One could pick up Rogue at 1st. Not the best solution in the world but it beats the heck out of having to wait until 12th level for the full array of wand abilities.

OK I went through the list myself and I certainly learned why this is not a popular build for players

Here is what I came up with

Human
Rogue 1st – Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative
Rogue 1st /Wizard 1st - Scribe Scroll
Rogue 1st /Wizard 2nd - Wand Strike (Must have 4 ranks of use magic device)
Rogue 1st /Wizard 4th -
Rogue 1st /Wizard 5th - Craft Wand, Double Wand Wielder*
Fighter 1st / Rogue 1st /Wizard 5th - Weapon Finesse
Rogue 1st /Fighter 2nd / Wizard 5th - Quick draw
Rogue 1st /Fighter 3rd/Wizard 5th -**
Rogue 1st /Fighter 4th /Wizard 5th – Weapon Focus (Touch Spell), Reckless Wand Wielder
Rogue 1st /Fighter 4th /Wizard 5th /Eldritch Knight 1st - Combat Expertise ***
Rogue 1st/ Fighter 4th/ Wizard 5th /Eldritch Knight 2nd - Arcane Strike ****

* I'm not 100% sure this is legal – can I pick up Craft wand and then immediately pick up Double Wand Wielder (with its Craft Wand as a prerequisite)

** Another problem with the class – at this level the character suffers an XP penalty because the favoured classes are not within one level of each other. That does only take place for a single level however as after this the fighter and the wizard will be within one level of each other.

*** Combat Expertise is a good choice for our Wand Wielder as it is making touch attacks, usually dead easy. Our Wand wielder can use this feat to significantly increase its AC and still probably manage to hit.

**** This feat allows one to use their spell slots to add more damage to their 'Melee Weapon, Natural Attacks or Unarmed Strikes'. If a wand qualifies as being in one of these categories then this is an excellent feat for our wand wielder. With this feat the wand wielder can wear heavy armour. Sure the wand wielder can't actually use its spells but it more then makes up for that by simply using a spell slot to add increased chance to hit and damage to the strikes. This would not stack with Wand Strike which would now only be useful if and when you had run out of spell slots.

I have only created the character up to 12th level. If I continued with it I would keep picking up Eldritch Knight levels however this class has probably reached the apex of its power at this point. Wands can only be up to 4th level in terms of spell power and as the characters or monsters get much more powerful the wands are going to increasingly not be able to cut it. This is in fact the greatest weak point of this entire build. Prior to the character making 12th level it was weak compared to its peers because its feats where often being taken as a prerequisite for later feats. Furthermore until Arcane Strike was picked up the character could not reasonably wear armour as it had all these spells that would be nice to use. One might want to swap Reckless Wand Wielder for Arcane Strike as Arcane Strike means using armour as soon as possible and Reckless Wand Wielder is just going to increase the power of the wands a little. Its more of a feat to help one keep up with the Jones then a critical feat to the build.


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:

Note that he does have mage armor prepared. AND, his weapon of choice? A wand of vampiric touch. If he can't seem to touch anybody with the wand before he gets seriously hurt, he's got that potion of cure light wounds. Yeah, he can go down pretty fast against even 3rd level characters (for whom he would be considered a 'boss') - At this level it would be best to have him in a group of enemies, so that he will have no more than 2 PCs on him at a time. If you want to give him a little more protection, swap out one of his burning hands for shield (and then remove identify from his spellbook).

But I'll admit - at this level he isn't very effective. He's taken Two-Weapon Fighting, but can't get any real use out of it until he picks up Wandstrike and Dual Wand Wielder. Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand and Legendary Artisan aren't combat applicable feats (though the latter two did allow him to have a 3rd-level wand as a 5th-level NPC, ever so barely).

Weapon Finesse is a saving grace for him, especially since he makes touch attacks - but it's still not an impressive attack bonus at 5th level.

Perhaps you might change his touch of idiocy out for invisibility (dropping perhaps locate object from his spellbook), cast that before combat, then have his familiar deliver a ghoul touch to the party tank to start off the battle? How about that?

My confusion revolves around why you stated him at 5th? At this level he is an interesting enough fellow but he is essentially a mage using a wand with some sub-optimal feat choices.

This is a build that is really going to impress your players when he's blazing away with two wands while quipping Clint Eastwood one liners (sussed from the internet) as Speghetti Western music plays in the backround.

Contributor

Jeremy - why are you taking him up to fourth level in fighter? My guess would be so you can take Weapon Specialization, but really I don't think that +2 to damage is worth all that much - especially in this build. It's going to hurt your caster level way too much to make it worthwhile.

Perhaps go with no more than two fighter levels (and then only if you need the extra feat). Getting into Eldritch Knight as soon as possible is going to be the best thing for this guy.

Also, a level of Spellsword is probably a good thing for him, too. That would allow him to take advantage of armor; combine the spellsword's ability to reduce ASF with mithril armor and the Twilight ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds and you should be able to get his AC up to something respectable.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
My confusion revolves around why you stated him at 5th?

Ah. Well, I do intend to make higher level builds - That way he can be used as a reoccuring villain, growing ever more dangerous each time they meet. I figure statting him out at each 5th level increase will give me enough to fudge around if the party isn't quite in that neighborhood.


Zherog wrote:

Jeremy - why are you taking him up to fourth level in fighter? My guess would be so you can take Weapon Specialization, but really I don't think that +2 to damage is worth all that much - especially in this build. It's going to hurt your caster level way too much to make it worthwhile.

Perhaps go with no more than two fighter levels (and then only if you need the extra feat). Getting into Eldritch Knight as soon as possible is going to be the best thing for this guy.

Also, a level of Spellsword is probably a good thing for him, too. That would allow him to take advantage of armor; combine the spellsword's ability to reduce ASF with mithril armor and the Twilight ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds and you should be able to get his AC up to something respectable.

Main reason to keep boosting the fighter levels up is for the hps. Keep in mind the idea is that he is decked out in armour - he can't actually caste any spells. He can use the Arcane Strike feat to use up his spell slots with the wands but getting a 4th level spell slot is not that huge a bonus considering that the second he pulls both those wands we can take for granted that the players are going to go ape. The Barbarian rages, the Rogue tries for flanking the Cleric and the Mage both start on their most powerful spells and quite possibly the players say 'screw this' and go for their powerful squrrielled away magic. Getting more hps and another feat might help the wand wielder stay alive for another round something another spell slot won't likely do.

In fact my temptation is to forgo wand strike feat completely lose the rogue level and one of the Eldritch Knight levels and pick up two more levels of Fighter. That would boost his hps even more and give him two more feats to play with. Maybe dodge and heavy armour optimization both of which might allow him to survive longer. As it stands this guys life expectancy is between 6 and 18 seconds. if he can last three rounds and he can manage to hit with wands that start debilitating the party or make the party attack itself then he has some chance of prevailing in the combat but he has only a few rounds to make this happen - a few extra spell slots won't really help him as he'll never come close to using all those he already has.

Contributor

Depends how he uses those few extra spell slots, really. There's lots of spells that are significantly better than hit points. Just off the top of my head (and sticking to 4th level or lower):

Reduce person he'll get a +1 to attack rolls and AC from the smaller size
Cat's grace better Dex should be obvious :)
False life Yeah, I just said spells are better than hit points, then listed a spell that gives more hit points. I never claimed to be consistent
Mirror image If the PCs can't hit the right target, he'll last longer. Combine with a rod of lesser maximization for a guaranteed oodle of images.
Protection from arrows Really only good if you'll face somebody without magical ranged attacks
Blink Though the 20% miss chance you give yourself generally sucks, the PCs should be mising more often
Fly Why stand on the ground and get stabbed by the barbarian and rogue when you can safely fly above them?
Protection from energy Only good if your party wizard likes one type of spell, and your baddie has a way of knowing that
Leomond's tiny hut Gain full concealment without hampering your own attacks
Fire shield There's nothing quite as much fun as dishing out damage to anybody who attacks you
lesser glove of invulnerability Make all those low-level spells of your wizard and cleric useless against you

So, yes - more spell slots can in fact be better than 2d10+Con hit points and one feat.


Zherog wrote:

Depends how he uses those few extra spell slots, really. There's lots of spells that are significantly better than hit points. Just off the top of my head (and sticking to 4th level or lower):

Reduce person he'll get a +1 to attack rolls and AC from the smaller size
Cat's grace better Dex should be obvious :)
False life Yeah, I just said spells are better than hit points, then listed a spell that gives more hit points. I never claimed to be consistent
Mirror image If the PCs can't hit the right target, he'll last longer. Combine with a rod of lesser maximization for a guaranteed oodle of images.
Protection from arrows Really only good if you'll face somebody without magical ranged attacks
Blink Though the 20% miss chance you give yourself generally sucks, the PCs should be mising more often
Fly Why stand on the ground and get stabbed by the barbarian and rogue when you can safely fly above them?
Protection from energy Only good if your party wizard likes one type of spell, and your baddie has a way of knowing that
Leomond's tiny hut Gain full concealment without hampering your own attacks
Fire shield There's nothing quite as much fun as dishing out damage to anybody who attacks you
lesser glove of invulnerability Make all those low-level spells of your wizard and cleric useless against you

So, yes - more spell slots can in fact be better than 2d10+Con hit points and one feat.

I feel as if we are talking past each other. I'm not arguing that there are not lots of good spells. I'm saying that with a life expectancy of 18 seconds there is not a chance in hell of him using the spells he already has never mind any extra he might have. Especially since he is a double wand wielder. For the three rounds that he is likely to live he wll be using wands - not casting spells.

Furthermore he can use two wands a round. He's probably best off buffing with wands since the PCs are unlikely to give him many rounds in which to do so. That also allows him to wander around in as heavy armour as possible. A wand with a few charges of Stone Skin and maybe Fire Shield would be a great addition to this guy but why caste spells one yourself (and not be able to wear armour) when you can cast them off your wands at twice the speed?

Contributor

I don't necessarily think we're talking past one another; but I do think we have different expectations for an encounter.

You expect what seems to be a major bad guy to live for three rounds, tops. I expect him to live much longer - because with rare exceptions, my NPCs aren't suicidal. They have a desire to live, not die.


Zherog wrote:

I don't necessarily think we're talking past one another; but I do think we have different expectations for an encounter.

You expect what seems to be a major bad guy to live for three rounds, tops. I expect him to live much longer - because with rare exceptions, my NPCs aren't suicidal. They have a desire to live, not die.

Now that is somewhat interesting and I think worthy of a descussion on the boards. I'm starting a new thread to see if others are interested in throwing their two cents in.

I will say that my expectations for an NPC is to die within 18 seconds however there is a corollary. If they don't die then its because they have convinced the PCs that that they are going to win this fight and that has taken place substantially within 18 seconds. The whole design is kind of a page from that sort of theory - a double wand wielder packs a massive wallop into a short space of time. This guy has a better chance then most of the villains I use of turning the tables on my party.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

7 Years later - I'm curious... did anyone actually get to use this build as either a PC or NPC and what were the results?? How did your players react to the build?

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