So Wednesday night saw my party fly to Diamond Lake upon the back of the party Druid/Master of Many Forms in huge griffon form. They received a sending spell from Allustan who warned them of a black dragon destroying the town and told them that he was holed up in the Whispering Cairn. They bypassed the town and went straight for the Cairn. They landed long enough to ready their gear when Ilthane flew from a small grove of trees nearby, around the back of the Cairn toward the PCs. They spotted her, the druid/momf charged in wingy troll form (which had pounce as an extraordinary ability. He hit all the attacks and also dazed Ilthane for a round. This was followed by the warforged who also charged and hit, as well as a flamestrike from the party cleric/exorcist, and another hit from the troll and wf. Ilthane never acted and went down like a chump. She muttered "Ilthane take you all" as she died. The 5 PCs were at 11th level and I ran Ilthane as written. Hopefully the rest of the adventure will be more challenging. Anyone else have similar experiences with Ilthane?
Yeah, that's pretty much how single-opponent encounters end up. What I end up doing, in almost every case, is I ad-hoc beef up the baddie's hit points for as long as I think they should stay around, so they at least do SOMETHING. I mean, the PCs don't know how many HP Ilthane has- and if she lasts TWO rounds, who's gonna object?
Isn't it supposed to be "Dragotha take you all"?
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Yes, our party chunkified Ilthane in 2 rounds, but the weird and nasty critters inside the cairn made up for it.
I'd recommend that Ilthane attack the party while they are in town. That way the burning buildings, terrified civilians and (possibly) rampaging lizardmen armies make for a better distraction. Outside the cairn by herself she's toast.
Well isn't the problem that you gave them gift of forewarning? I mean you identified a) black dragon and b) specific location. Even then, despite a dragon lying in wait with keen senses and such, you let them ambush the dragon. Now I admit that Ilthane could be improved with some Draconomicon stuff, but the encounter would be a lot more difficult if the PCs didn't expect to encounter a flying black dragon.
Ah, Ilthane...we hardly knew ye. She died in one hit. Yes, hard to believe. How? Well, even though I advanced her to a mature adult black dragon, with a phat 275hp, and I studied up on flight mechanics for a mad combat full of strafing runs...one hit. The party diviner/divine oracle/fatespinner (crucial, here) beat her to the initiative, launched a prismatic orb, and used the fatespinner's class feature "spin fate" to increase the DC. The randomly determined effect was petrification. What did our mature adult dragon with a +19 Fort save roll? A three, and not enough to match a DC only slivers away. Down she went, a flying statue of a huge dragon, dashed against the side of the Cairn Hills. A loud smack of the palm of my hand hitting my forehead followed. D'oh!
It's not going to change much and is not really the heart of the problem, but...
I thought a druid can't wildshape in a creature with template (so: no "winged troll").
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Bocklin
So Wednesday night saw my party fly to Diamond Lake upon the back of the party Druid/Master of Many Forms in huge griffon form. They received a sending spell from Allustan who warned them of a black dragon destroying the town and told them that he was holed up in the Whispering Cairn. They bypassed the town and went straight for the Cairn. They landed long enough to ready their gear when Ilthane flew from a small grove of trees nearby, around the back of the Cairn toward the PCs. They spotted her, the druid/momf charged in wingy troll form (which had pounce as an extraordinary ability. He hit all the attacks and also dazed Ilthane for a round. This was followed by the warforged who also charged and hit, as well as a flamestrike from the party cleric/exorcist, and another hit from the troll and wf. Ilthane never acted and went down like a chump. She muttered "Ilthane take you all" as she died. The 5 PCs were at 11th level and I ran Ilthane as written. Hopefully the rest of the adventure will be more challenging. Anyone else have similar experiences with Ilthane?
I had this to say a while back about the changes I'm envisioning concerning Illthane:
After liberating the Twisted Branch from the claws of Shukak (a draconic lizardfolk) and the vanquishing of the orc stronghold Xul Jarak (Sons of Gruumsh), Illthane (a huge mature adult black in my campaign) strikes Diamond Lake, shattering the garrison, Allustan's abode, and the PCs' homes, carrying off Allustan to both mock and draw in the PCs to dragon's swamp lair deep within the Lizard Marsh (in Faerun).When the PCs return to Diamond Lake after their campaign against the lizardfolk/orc union (sparked by Illthane), they meet Valkus Dun and a retinue of soldiers out to hunt Illthane. They learn of Diamond Lake's destruction, and the PCs will either ride home to see to the devastation, or join Valkus and his men in their dragon hunt (a futile hunt indeed for armored soldiers on horseback).
PCs will eventually have to plunge back into the Lizard Marsh, and with the help of the Twisted Branch tribe, will seek out Illthane's lair, slay her draconic kobold and lizardfolk minions, and challenge her in her very treasure room. I'll be using the old-school Dragonlance module Dragons of Despair, replacing Khisanth/Onyx with Illthane, even replacing Raistlin with Allustan.
With Diamond Lake in ruins, Allustan suggests the PCs head north to Waterdeep, where Eiglos, a slayer squad of dopplegangers, and the Champion's Belt awaits.
I might have to dial back a bit with Illthane, maybe bumping her up one or two age categories at the most. I'm making many, many changes to AoW, taking into account other Dungeon modules (including Vampires of Waterdeep) and other WotC products.
This is a real shame. Dragons should be one of the toughest opponents PCs ever have to face. A dragon encounter should never, ever, be "easy" (IMO, of course). There are enough size and age catagories to pick a combo challenging for any group. If your group was too overpowered for Ilthane as written, I think you should have increased her power accordingly (even if that means adjusting stats on the fly during the encounter - that's why DMs have DM screens, the PCs need not know).
I thought a druid can't wildshape in a creature with template (so: no "winged troll").
I can't recall for certain, but I believe he was making use of one of the abilities of the Master of Many Forms class. (That class, if I'm not mistaken, is basically centered around combining creature forms.)
Actually, the MoMF is just focused on having the ability to become as many types of creatures as possible. There's no set rules for becoming templated creatures, so it's up to the DM to decide if such a thing is allowed.
Isn't it supposed to be "Dragotha take you all"?
Yes...yes it is...my mistake. Consider it edited.
Well isn't the problem that you gave them gift of forewarning? I mean you identified a) black dragon and b) specific location. Even then, despite a dragon lying in wait with keen senses and such, you let them ambush the dragon. Now I admit that Ilthane could be improved with some Draconomicon stuff, but the encounter would be a lot more difficult if the PCs didn't expect to encounter a flying black dragon.
I ran it as the end of the Champions Belt said to run it. They get word that a dragon has come to Diamond Lake. And they got a spot check just like the module suggested. I don't tend to change things much from what's printed aside from beefing things up when they're higher level than the module calls for. No, they didn't ambush her at all either. Where did you get that?
It's not going to change much and is not really the heart of the problem, but...
I thought a druid can't wildshape in a creature with template (so: no "winged troll").
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Bocklin
The shape change came from his Master of Many Forms prestige class into a cave troll. He used a special MoMF ability to grow wings to fly. Hence "winged troll"
This is a real shame. Dragons should be one of the toughest opponents PCs ever have to face. A dragon encounter should never, ever, be "easy" (IMO, of course). There are enough size and age catagories to pick a combo challenging for any group. If your group was too overpowered for Ilthane as written, I think you should have increased her power accordingly (even if that means adjusting stats on the fly during the encounter - that's why DMs have DM screens, the PCs need not know).
They weren't overpowered, aside from having five 11th level PCs rather than 4. I try to stick to the modules as they are of the challenge level the developers intend for the PCs to face at that point in the campaign. Again, I do beef encounters up if the characters have leveled during the course of a module to make the rest more challenging.
I ran it as the end of the Champions Belt said to run it. They get word that a dragon has come to Diamond Lake. And they got a spot check just like the module suggested. I don't tend to change things much from what's printed aside from beefing things up when they're higher level than the module calls for. No, they didn't ambush her at all either. Where did you get that?
I don't have the module in front of me, so I'm not exactly sure what information they get before hand. I thought it was just that a dragon had attacked Diamond Lake, but no more specific than that. I think getting time to buff up ahead of time is an advantage, though I'm not sure how much of this your players got. If they cast 1 round/level effects...probably too much. If they just cast 10 min/level effects, not a problem.
Also, I have no idea how your combat went down. But I am surprised there was no surprise round giving everyone full round attacks (which would have prevented charging, etc). Its been my experience that at least someone in the party fails a Spot check (keep in mind the -1/10 ft penalty) and should be surprised. Again, I don't have the module in front of me so I don't know when you had them make spot checks. If it wasn't immediately before combat (i.e. the round Ilthane attacks), well then its the module that makes it too easy.
Also, I'd be curious about movement rates for engaging what should be a flying dragon (not sure about the growing wings, what maneuverability that gets you, and what the rate was, especially since its double movement up). Keep in mind Ilthane should have an 80 ft. reach on breath weapon, so no need to get very close.
I take it also that everyone made their save on Frightful Presence?
My players didn't find out about the dragon until they got back to Diamond Lake. After inspecting the carnage in town and talking to the townsfolk and the leaders of the garrison, they headed for the Whispering Cairn looking for Allustan.
They knew that the dragon may still be about, and so they were prepared. Unfortunately none of them made their spot checks, and so the dragon caught them by suprise. It turned into a ten round, knock down, drag out fight that my party of six almost didn't survive. Everyone had a good time that night.
They then went on to fight the Ghoul in the gateway to the tomb, and that is where we left off. Can't wait till next session.
Thanks. :-)
Seems this comforts James Jacobs' theory: the adventures as written are challenging for characters build around the core books, but need to be beefed up if the players are dipping in in those many extra options available out there.
Bocklin
The shape change came from his Master of Many Forms prestige class into a cave troll. He used a special MoMF ability to grow wings to fly. Hence "winged troll"It's not going to change much and is not really the heart of the problem, but...
I thought a druid can't wildshape in a creature with template (so: no "winged troll").
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Bocklin
I've just run the Ilthane fight, and it was a fun one. The players scout her first, so they were prepared (resist and protection from energy and so on). They tried greater invisibility too, but blindsight took care of that.
The thing is: Both the party arcane trickster and the wizard used ray of enfeeblement a lot, dropping her to a STR 1 (the minimum allowed with RoE). Then, with all buffed AC (Prayer, Haste, Mass Shield of Faith) they just waited for the fighter damage fiesta.
Ilthane improved her chances a bit with a darkness spell, dispelled later. At the end, she tried to fly away, but the attacks of opportunity killed her. A nice fight for me, but my players are around level 10.
They'll probably use this Ray of Enfeeblement tactics again. Any counter measures I can use?
Thanks,
Daniel.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I've just run the Ilthane fight, and it was a fun one. The players scout her first, so they were prepared (resist and protection from energy and so on). They tried greater invisibility too, but blindsight took care of that.
The thing is: Both the party arcane trickster and the wizard used ray of enfeeblement a lot, dropping her to a STR 1 (the minimum allowed with RoE). Then, with all buffed AC (Prayer, Haste, Mass Shield of Faith) they just waited for the fighter damage fiesta.
Ilthane improved her chances a bit with a darkness spell, dispelled later. At the end, she tried to fly away, but the attacks of opportunity killed her. A nice fight for me, but my players are around level 10.
They'll probably use this Ray of Enfeeblement tactics again. Any counter measures I can use?
Well, a big one is that multiple castings of RoE don't stack - it is a penalty, so only the highest penalty applies. That might help. In my case, I bumped Ilthane an age category (I have a party of 6), and gave her the scintillating scales spell from the Spell Compendium (turns natural armor into a deflection bonus, so it works vs. rays). Made her impressively hard to down.
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Ilthane could have been a challenge - but the PCs really were prepared for her and had all the right spells memorized. And that's the difference.
Even still - I upped her hits and stats considerably. She was a CR 16 dragon (bordering on 18). The party of 6 was half 10th and half 11th level. It didn't matter. Ilthane was a s good as dead.
The Mass Acid Resist 30, the counter for the entangle spell - and above all - the Spell Compendium's Downdraft was the end of the dragon. Downdraft is a spell worth banning, I think. This single third level spell is a total equalizer against any dragon on the wing that is trying to move into strafing range.
Even if the dragon saves - it's being smashed into the earth 50 feet *straight down*. *VOOM* Kerrash!
Most times as a dragon moves in to strafing range - that's enough to bring it down and crashing into the ground.
And it was enough with Ilthane too.
Now. the Oculus Demon on the other hand...he was *MEAN*!! That was no cakewalk. I almost had them all with him...
Well, a big one is that multiple castings of RoE don't stack - it is a penalty, so only the highest penalty applies. That might help.
Thanks a lot Russ. That will help me in future battles. Mystra smiled for the characters for this battle, but they will meet Dragotha eventually... :) The battle with Ilthane was fun, nevertheless, and that's what important.
Cheers,
Daniel.
I changed Ilthane to a female hex dragon. The villagers described it as "black, yeah it was black - kinda silvery. Didn't get a close look, I was too busy running".
Led to a long running battle featuring the party warmage being changed into a monkey and the dragon chasing the cleric into cairn, where he healed and turned on her. Before she could get out (past the others, who had gathered at the entrance) it was too late. But it was memorable.
It's my opinion that no dragon should be caught dead without access to a number of one-use magic items, preferably already in effect. It's a dragon.
When Ilthane faces my PCs, I'll look up a couple "1 Hour/level" spells and have her have drunk potions in preparation for the fight with Allustan. Should keep things interesting.
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Add a few extra abilities the dragons from 4e have unique and combat altering abilties which make them a large threat in 1 on 1 an adult black dragon can cause poison smoke to erupt out to 10-20ft from itself. anyone in there now has concealment issues and fort saves to worry about. you has he DM can change monsters on the fly to be a challenge and dragons should be deadly not easy. I will be using a lot of entries from 4e to fill in this adventure. because the entries have actual tactics for the creatures in them and they have a lot of lore that other MMs and bestiaries are missing.