Wow! Talk about thread-jacking!
This thread jack brought to you by the letter "W" and the vegetable "Cabbage."
What are the chances that we can get back on topic?
Dude, it's what we've been talking about.
I'm curious what info or quasi info we all have heard about 4E. I actually read somewhere that it might be the first step in Hasbro selling off Wizards ...
Hey, you've been getting the dirt. Some of it from people who actually have to list Hasbro on their tax returns. How is that not anymore valuable than idle rumor?
GGG
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wow! Talk about thread-jacking!
What are the chances that we can get back on topic?
I'm curious what info or quasi info we all have heard about 4E. I actually read somewhere that it might be the first step in Hasbro selling off Wizards ...
There is nothing to post on this topic, so I'm not sure what you expect people to say. Nobody knows anything about 4e. ENWorld is still the best gossip site for the industry, and it doesn't have anything worth posting. Anybody that knows anything about 4e is subject to a non-disclosure agreement, and WotC has shown that it will sue to enforce those. If you are waiting for James or Erik or some other insider to see this thread and suddenly decide to chime in with "Oh yeah, 4e is going to come out at GenCon 2007 at exactly 3 p.m. on the third day" you're going to be waiting for a long time.
There is nothing to say on this topic that is any way based in reality or actual first hand knowledge. Period. If you want the peanut gallery to line up and start puking out their various conspiracy theories, just do a search for the last unproductive 4e thread.
Like I said, the threadjack was the best possible result for this topic.
(...) and WotC has shown that it will sue to enforce those.
Has it? I am really curious about this little piece of gossip. What are you referring to?
Bocklin (genuinely asking)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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(...) and WotC has shown that it will sue to enforce those.Has it? I am really curious about this little piece of gossip. What are you referring to?
Bocklin (genuinely asking)
Mtgsalvation.com is a big spoiler site for magic. They routinely would post a complete list of every magic card in an upcoming set weeks before the actual release. WotC likes to keep a very tight lid on spoilers for Magic, and when somebody on that site posted a series of playtest cards in violation of a non-disclosure agreement, Wizard's brought suit against the main rumor gatherer of the site. You can read all about it (from WotC's point of view) here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr233
Since the time of the lawsuit, inforation has dried up to a thin trickle. Now the only way the site gets information is if somebody somehow manages to get some cards before the official release and opens them. A foreign retailer posted a substantial number of cards during the last rumor season and as a result, WotC prohibited them from running tournaments for the foreseeable future.
WotC cracked down hard on the Magic leaks. Considering that, as everyone and there brother has said, sales of 3.5 will dry up once 4e is announced, there is no way they are not going to be as vigilant, if not more vigilant, about keeping details secret until they are good and ready to release them.
Did anyone else's copy come with the mini-generator...damn that's the coolest! Just spits out minis and a inch scale map of everything you describe as you play so you don't have to use your imagination in the least. It's a super duper DM-o-rama-tool!You think you're joking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing
8-)
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Well I hope I didnt enter this convo too late. Do you really think that Wizards would make a version 4.0 right after investing so much time fleshing out 3.5? They spent alot of resources on Dm Guide II and the PHB II. If they did switch over to a 4.0 format that would be evil on the scale of Bill Gates, we all know he is Demogorgon's messenger on here on our part of the Prime, but I digress. Anywhoo I will stick to my 3.5, I already went through the emotional roller coaster of switching from 1st edition to Second, once in my life time. Let us hope that if they do change over the price will come down on all the 3.5 books, I would be one happy out of fashion geek god.
Cheers all.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hey Sebastian!
Zealot sounds like he wants to eat some pie with me. Do you have enough for him too? ;)
I'm the purple pieman of porcupine f*~#ing peak. I've got enough pie for everyone.
And you don't know how many times (3) I began posting a response to him and then cancelling it. All I will say is, Zealot, read the second post on this thread.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If I admit I will buy the 4E books, and then proceed to do so, may I have some pie anyway?
Technically the pie is crow pie, and it's for those who swear they'll never buy another edition and then do. However, I don't see why some other tasty fruit pies aren't in order for those willing to embrace (or at least consider the possibility of embracing) change.
Pies for you Celestial Healer!
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If I admit I will buy the 4E books, and then proceed to do so, may I have some pie anyway?Technically the pie is crow pie, and it's for those who swear they'll never buy another edition and then do. However, I don't see why some other tasty fruit pies aren't in order for those willing to embrace (or at least consider the possibility of embracing) change.
Pies for you Celestial Healer!
Hooray!
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However, I don't see why some other tasty fruit pies aren't in order for those willing to embrace (or at least consider the possibility of embracing) change.
Pies for you Celestial Healer!
Dude. "Embracing change" would be like going sky diving, not playing a new edition of D&D. It's not that revolutionary.
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Dude. "Embracing change" would be like going sky diving, not playing a new edition of D&D. It's not that revolutionary.However, I don't see why some other tasty fruit pies aren't in order for those willing to embrace (or at least consider the possibility of embracing) change.
Pies for you Celestial Healer!
If it's no big deal, then why are people so stubborn about not buying them?
I embraced change once. Feds came in and charged me with conspiracy to currupt US currency. I dropped that handful of quarters when they slapped on the cuffs but when I get outta the slammer, me that $8.75 have a date at the altar.
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I embraced change once. Feds came in and charged me with conspiracy to currupt US currency. I dropped that handful of quarters when they slapped on the cuffs but when I get outta the slammer, me that $8.75 have a date at the altar.
Dude! You couldn't even get a roll* before the feds grabbed you? That's harsh!
* Of quarters -- what did you think I was talking about?
Dude! You couldn't even get a roll* before the feds grabbed you? That's harsh!* Of quarters -- what did you think I was talking about?
Coins only ever give you one of two things, head or tail... there's no losing on a flip, really.
::The Jade pirouettes in slo-mo, staring lovingly at his handful of change as Journey's Faithfully plays on...::
lol...is that a roll of quarters in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me...
Both. Check out my other pocket.
In all seriousness, I'm actually looking forward to fourth edition and the myriad of pleasant fixes it will bring. It won't be any time soon, but I predict that it naturally will occur, since financially WotC know that the core rulebooks are the best-sellers (part of the reason we had 3.5 so soon and the leatherbound core rulebooks). So from a purely business point of view, Wizards' question is not "do we really need a fourth edition", but "how soon can we reasonably bring it out, and how can we make the game more profitable without disappointing our current players?"
Of course, that's all speculation, and I'm no business expert so you should take anything I say on the matter with a pinch of salt. Getting anything verifiable on this is going to be impossible until Wizards makes an official announcement - nobody who's signed an NDA is going to break it, and if they do, nobody they tell will be able to cite him as their source because officially he's not supposed to have told anyone. Thus all we have are, at best, rumours from unnamed sources at WotC, and cheap speculation by people who've been following the industry.
Careful, Nicolas Logue! Wizards of the Coast might stop hiring you to write adventures if you keep revealing their secrets! Why, I bet he's writing a d12-based adventure right now...
Ok, I think we all have been hearing various rumors regarding a 4th edition of D&D, many of them contradictory to say the least.
What has everyone heard, what if anything do we know to be a fact and what do we all think about the situation?
Thanks!
I'm just a customer, consumer, player and reviewer of D&D gaming material, and to bring this thread back around to its original subject, this is what I've noticed and observed. I could be way off on some of this, of course . . .
In August 2006, Kevin Wilson, D&D Brand Manager, stated that Wizards is not working on a 4th Edition that will force players to use miniatures, and that there will be no 4th Edition products released in 2007. What's interesting here is what could be read into what's being denied - no miniatures-specific new edition of D&D (thankfully), but that a 4th Edition could show up as early as 2008. (This information taken from ENWorld.org.)
Amazon.com lists a release date of June 2007 for 'Complete Champion' and July 2007 for 'Monster Manual V,' and it can be assumed that this will be for the current edition of the game. There is no cover art shown for MM5, but 'Complete Champion' has a similar dressing as the other (3.5 ed.) 'Complete...' books, so this seems to confirm the "no-4th-Edition-until-2008" train of thought.
The .pdf industry, which relies a great deal on the OGL as perpetuated by the current edition of the game, is going through some significant changes. Monte Cook (who, admittedly, also enjoyed success in the print market as well) is no longer "in the game," having moved away from putting out new RPG product, and the three main .pdf distributors - RPGNow, DriveThruRPG and the ENWorld Shop, are merging into one storefront (which will become finalized in the beginning of 2007). This is all speculation, of course, but Mr. Cook has definite ties to a number of folk at WotC, as would a number of .pdf publishers (but not to the degree that Mr. Cook enjoys, obviously). It could be hypothesized/assumed that Mr. Cook had/has some sort of inside information re: the future of the game and the Open Game License. (Also consider that Malhavoc's once contraversial decision to only sell .pdf product exclusively through DriveThruRPG because DriveThruRPG offered piracy protecting unavailable at other online retailers, but not publicly mentioning that DriveThruRPG was also owned by White Wolf, who happened to be the print publisher of Malhavoc product.) The same MIGHT also be said of the .pdf market consolidating.
Dragon magazine itself has publicly stated that the magazine is steering away from printing/producing new class material, and there seems to be a definite push to flesh out material already available in the game rather than releasing new material. Why bother creating new material/rules when it might be deemed null and void with a new edition? And there has been no word on a follow-up to the successful 'Dragon Compedium' from on-high outside of making it plainly known that Wizards would have to sign off on such a venture. Could their reluctance, made evident by their silence, somehow indicate that there are plans for a 4th Edition whose new rules and system would need to be used for future releases of "new" D&D material, even if it's just updated material?
Wizards decided not to renew Code Monkey's license to the WotC material made available for their e-Tools/PCGen/etc. software. This could mean that Wizards has plans to produce their own software (which may very well be what happened when Wizards did not renew Sword & Sorcery's license to the Ravenloft material) or that the data in question will become outdated . . . when a 4th Edition hits the shelves.
Back to Amazon - At one point, a 'Fiendish Codex III' was listed, much as the 'Monster Manual V' is now listed, but it is no longer present in the listings. Because the book is no longer scheduled? It's too soon to pull the title based on lack of interested since FC II hasn't been released yet, so perhaps it's because 4th Edition rules may not be supported by an FC III.
Just some observations . . .
I think a lot of Dragon's steering away from new classes and such has to do more with the rampant proliferation of such things that marked most of 3.x's lifespan to this point. If I've got my stories straight, part of the reason for 3.x was to fix the problem of too many kits and options floating around. Seems to me we're already back to that point, and I think the designers have realized that there was just too much, and as such, have started steering towards less "crunchy" material.
Regarding the Fiendish Codex III, what in the world would it cover? Yugoloths? While I know a lot of die-hard cannon buffs would love this (and I would, as well), I'm not sure that there would be enough of a market for that book to warrant it preempting some other project that could be undertaken in its place (such as, say, a racial spotlight book for elementals or fey, a la Draconomicon and Libris Mortis).
Will there be a 4th edition? As surely as the sun rises. That's all we know. Everything else is just gossip. The "evidence" provided doesn't really state anything at all.
Sebastian, I want some of that pie.
I'm just a customer, consumer, player and reviewer of D&D gaming material, and to bring this thread back around to its original subject, this is what I've noticed and observed. I could be way off on some of this, of course . . .In August 2006, Kevin Wilson, D&D Brand Manager, stated that Wizards is not working on a 4th Edition that will force players to use miniatures, and that there will be no 4th Edition products released in 2007. What's interesting here is what could be read into what's being denied - no miniatures-specific new edition of D&D (thankfully), but that a 4th Edition could show up as early as 2008. (This information taken from ENWorld.org.)
Amazon.com lists a release date of June 2007 for 'Complete Champion' and July 2007 for 'Monster Manual V,' and it can be assumed that this will be for the current edition of the game. There is no cover art shown for MM5, but 'Complete Champion' has a similar dressing as the other (3.5 ed.) 'Complete...' books, so this seems to confirm the "no-4th-Edition-until-2008" train of thought.
The .pdf industry, which relies a great deal on the OGL as perpetuated by the current edition of the game, is going through some significant changes. Monte Cook (who, admittedly, also enjoyed success in the print market as well) is no longer "in the game," having moved away from putting out new RPG product, and the three main .pdf distributors - RPGNow, DriveThruRPG and the ENWorld Shop, are merging into one storefront (which will become finalized in the beginning of 2007). This is all speculation, of course, but Mr. Cook has definite ties to a number of folk at WotC, as would a number of .pdf publishers (but not to the degree that Mr. Cook enjoys, obviously). It could be hypothesized/assumed that Mr. Cook had/has some sort of inside information re: the future of the game and the Open Game License. (Also consider that Malhavoc's once contraversial decision to only sell .pdf product exclusively through DriveThruRPG because DriveThruRPG offered piracy protecting unavailable at other online retailers, but not publicly mentioning that DriveThruRPG was also owned by White Wolf, who happened to be the print publisher of Malhavoc product.) The same MIGHT also be said of the .pdf market consolidating.
Dragon magazine itself has publicly stated that the magazine is steering away from printing/producing new class material, and there seems to be a definite push to flesh out material already available in the game rather than releasing new material. Why bother creating new material/rules when it might be deemed null and void with a new edition? And there has been no word on a follow-up to the successful 'Dragon Compedium' from on-high outside of making it plainly known that Wizards would have to sign off on such a venture. Could their reluctance, made evident by their silence, somehow indicate that there are plans for a 4th Edition whose new rules and system would need to be used for future releases of "new" D&D material, even if it's just updated material?
Wizards decided not to renew Code Monkey's license to the WotC material made available for their e-Tools/PCGen/etc. software. This could mean that Wizards has plans to produce their own software (which may very well be what happened when Wizards did not renew Sword & Sorcery's license to the Ravenloft material) or that the data in question will become outdated . . . when a 4th Edition hits the shelves.
Back to Amazon - At one point, a 'Fiendish Codex III' was listed, much as the 'Monster Manual V' is now listed, but it is no longer present in the listings. Because the book is no longer scheduled? It's too soon to pull the title based on lack of interested since FC II hasn't been released yet, so perhaps it's because 4th Edition rules may not be supported by an FC III.
Just some observations . . .
I'm just a customer, player, game master occasional contributor, and egomaniac, but I'll take a stab.
Fact: Noted former Dragon Editor Roger Moore shares his name with a former James Bond actor.
Fact: Gravitation is a property by which all objects attract each other. Modern physics describes gravitation using the general theory of relativity, but the much simpler Newton's law of universal gravitation provides an excellent approximation in many cases.
Gravitation is the reason for the very existence of the Earth, the Sun, and other celestial bodies; without it, matter would not have coalesced into these bodies and life as we know it would not exist. Gravitation is also responsible for keeping the Earth and the other planets in their orbits around the Sun, the Moon in its orbit around the Earth, for the formation of tides, and for various other natural phenomena that we observe.
Neither Newton nor Einstein played 3rd edition, yet gravitation is key to rolling dice....
Fact: The National Enquirer reported yesterday that long-anticipated Tom-Kat wedding celebrations have finally begun!
The couple moved into a 7th floor penthouse at Rome's posh Hassler Hotel this morning, The ENQUIRER has learned exclusively. The preparations for next weekend's nuptials at Odescalchi Castle, 25 miles away, are underway.
Earlier the bridegroom-to-be stepped from a private plane at Rome's Ciampino airport, carrying their baby Suri in his arms.
Cruise, Katie and their other children took a black limousine to the hotel. It swept into the garage area protected by a strong security detail from a company recommended by pal George Clooney, who has an Italian home.
After Cruise and Katie settled into the suite they ordered a light meal of prosciutto and melon with buffalo mozzarella, washed down with mineral water.
As word of their arrival spread, crowds quickly gathered outside the hotel, close to Rome's fabled Spanish Steps.
Fact: in my copy of fourth edition you can play a hyperdimensional jabberwocky, Newton, Einstein, Katie Holmes, Tom Cruise or either of the two Roger Moores.
Fact: I like pie, but am allergic to nuts. So just whipped cream and sprinkles please.
Coincidence? A leading set of observations? Gossip? Heresay?
I think not.
Though I do think I'll wait for something concrete to show up somewhere credible (i.e. like someone posting something on EnWorld or perhaps an article in the National Enquirer or Star) before I get all excited about 6th Ed.
GGG
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(Sebastian check)
Sixth edition? Not in this lifetime buddy!
Yeah, sixth you might as well skip, since seventh is coming out in 2010 anyway.
My dad told me that, and he's the grand vizier of Wizards of the Coast, so he would know. He's even shown me some prerelease copies of the books.
They just three-hole punch them so you can put them in a binder since no one will want to buy a hardcover when eighth edition is coming out in November of the same year.
Delayed, Meta-Uber-Quad-Wielding-Do-More-Damage-Attack of Opportunities on all that pie passing.
Now pass me that 4E Logue-o-nomicon so I can get to work on My Zombie Hamster Favored Sole of Leetness.
And then get in the kitchen and make me some pie.
"It ain't over til its over...and maybe not then, either..." -WS
I know a lot of people have come up with some compelling arguements for the impending release of 4th edition, and I know this generates a lot of emotion among the fan base. We can glean from releases and comments from various designers that 2007 will be 4th edition free. So where does that leave us? With a lot of conjecture that none of us can really confirm.
First off, if 4th edition is going to come out anytime "soon," its not likely that they will slip it into the schedule and hope no one notices. In fact, its pretty likely that they will start trying to build some enthusiasm about it and convince everyone that they really SHOULD buy all of the 4th edition products when they come out. So I would say that we will likely hear about 4th edition at least a year before it actually shows up. It only make sense, since you need to advertise it to the people that will buy it, and you need to "convert" the naysayers. It doesn't do them any good to release something that no one knows about, or to try and "sneak" it into your buying schedule. Something like this needs momentum and advertising.
As far as the Adventure Path hard covers and the Dragon Compendium go, I wouldn't assume that that the lack of follow up products are directly tied to 4th edition looming. When the first adventure path came out, the AP itself was half 3.0 and half 3.5, it was a new concept, and it brought a lot of new readers to Dungeon. Further, WOTC was out of the adventure business at the time. It could be that they don't see the need for an "Age or Worms" hardcover since the whole thing was better planned and fully 3.5, and they may indeed see a hardcover as competing against their own new adventures. The Dragon Compendium was great, but it focused on new standard classes, new prestige classes, new feats, monsters, and spells. While all of this was derived from old Dragon Material updated, much of this seems to compete against WOTC items, and its possible that the Compendium did a little TOO well. Look at it this way. If it didn't sell, WOTC wouldn't be too impressed with the product. If it sold really well, it would be impressed, but if it sold REALLY well and WOTC sales during that time went down a comparable amount, it might be a signal to them that they aren't generating MORE sales, just shifting sales to products that they may less money off of since they are licensed out.
WOTC has done a lot to "standarize" things in their products lately. They introduced a new format for adventures, they introduced a new format for monster entries, they introduced a new stat block, and they even tweaked spell descriptions and PrC and standard class descriptions. It doesn't seem like you would do that much standarizaton on an edition that almost over, unless 4th edtion is no more different from 3.5 than 3.0 was from 3.5, which would indicate that its not desperately "needed."
If you look at the next round of Complete books, you will see that WOTC themselves have backed off of 20 level standard classes, and seem to be making more detailed, specific purpose PrCs instead of just coming up with "cool ideas for characters." I think even WOTC has seen that they may have gone overboard, and you don't want to kill off your enthusiasm in your fan base.
Oh, and as a counterpoint to Forgotten Realms fans that have conjectured that the three "mega adventure" books next year may be the herald of 4th edition Realms, I would say that its equally possible that all those posts that I read about two years ago to a year ago about the lack of Realms adventures were actually heeded, and WOTC tried to give the fanbase what it seemed to want. Perhaps to excess, but I do seem to recall a general call for more FR adventures a while ago, lamenting how City of the Spider Queen seemed to be the end of the FR adventure as we knew it.
Its possible that my interpretations of all of these things are wrong, and we are heading right into 4th edition. By no means am I saying that I am right or that I have any inside information or amazing insight into such things. I'm just pointing out that for everything that could be taken as a sign of the coing of 4th edition, we have thigns that could be seen as a sign of this edition settling in for the "long haul."
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they put out a "3.5 revised" edition, that didn't really change any rules, but incorporated all of the errata from the last few years (which technically would have a "new rule" in regards to polymorph). This would be pretty similar to what happened in 2nd edition, when the DMG, PH, and "Monstrous Manual" were rereleased at the same time the Player's Option books came out.
As I said, I could be way off, but I just wanted to show some alternate interpretations.
Mtgsalvation.com is a big spoiler site for magic. (...) they are not going to be as vigilant, if not more vigilant, about keeping details secret until they are good and ready to release them.
Thanks! Curiosity satisfied. ;-)
Bocklin
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they put out a "3.5 revised" edition, that didn't really change any rules, but incorporated all of the errata from the last few years (which technically would have a "new rule" in regards to polymorph).
3.5 WAS the revised edition.