Why would a party WANT to do tHoHR?


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I am about to run The Hall of Harsh Reflections and I know my players pretty well and I think that they might not "do" the adventure. Right now they are so geared toward hearing back from Eligos that I have a very strong feeling that they won't do the adventure and try to skip it entirely.

I was thinking about it ... and if they are captured they will simply just break out and leave the place without further exploring it (heck, that is what I would do!). Or if they manage to not get arrested and find the key they will just ignore it and wait to hear back from Eligos.

And even if they do manage to get thrown in jail why should they risk their lives to get to the bottom of their abduction? There really is no reason for them to explore that place once they break out and find all of their stuff.

And if they DON'T get arrested, why should they even bother finding out about the key and doing the adventure? There really isn't any reason for them to do this.

Any ideas on how I should handled these situations would be greatly appreciated (especially the second possibility). Thanks!


Stonesnake wrote:

I am about to run The Hall of Harsh Reflections and I know my players pretty well and I think that they might not "do" the adventure. Right now they are so geared toward hearing back from Eligos that I have a very strong feeling that they won't do the adventure and try to skip it entirely.

I was thinking about it ... and if they are captured they will simply just break out and leave the place without further exploring it (heck, that is what I would do!). Or if they manage to not get arrested and find the key they will just ignore it and wait to hear back from Eligos.

And even if they do manage to get thrown in jail why should they risk their lives to get to the bottom of their abduction? There really is no reason for them to explore that place once they break out and find all of their stuff.

And if they DON'T get arrested, why should they even bother finding out about the key and doing the adventure? There really isn't any reason for them to do this.

Any ideas on how I should handled these situations would be greatly appreciated (especially the second possibility). Thanks!

Well, if I was getting paid a lot of money to abduct someone and then kill them, and they managed to escape, would I just let them go? Of course not. Zyrxog isn't just gonna give up. The thing about this adventure is that there's no way for the PCs to skip it- because they're the defense, not the offense. If they escape, they're gonna get attacked again. And again. And again, until they're captured and killed, or their attackers are all dead. So either the PCs can simply run from the situation, and let themselves get attacked again, and again, and again, or they can go and try to find out WHY they're being attacked and put an end to it.

Seriously. There's no way to "skip" the adventure, since it's not THEIR choice, it's the mindflayer's choice. They're not choosing the battles, he is.


I'm going to be running this adventure next week as well, and my solution was to not even have the PC's gear taken to the flayer's place.

They would be captured in their hotel as normal, but if they are sleeping, they would not be armoured or armed when the mob and town guard breaks in. Their gear would probably be confiscated by the city, then, when they are transferred to sodden hold, their gear remains back in the city dungeon.

Of course, I'm running this in Hyboria using the Conan RPG rules, so gear is of less consequence to the group.

Still, putting their gear in a different room, or something like that will also encourage the group to explore further. Although the place gets a lot harder if they don't have all their magic goodies.


Your them DM and you can decide to railroad them in. Sounds harsh but really it's a good info module for leading into the Champions belt as they won't have any reason to suspect Raknian if they don't find what's in the illithids chamber. My group just finished it and is already planning there next moves. It was easier for me to get my group into as I replaced the party rogue with a doppelganger and let the player have at it. He lead the group right into sodden hold without me railroading anything. By the time they figured it out there was no point turning back. And yes if they ignore the attack against them you can attack them again, this time make it hurt more and be alittle more personal. Sooner or later they will get the hint and deal with it.

Shadow Lodge

I'm just about to run this in two days and like you have pondered the "glue" in the module. For me, the glue (or rail-roading lines) are as follows:

- The initial attack by Elaxan is just the tip of the iceberg. This should tarnish the group's name unless they capture/kill Elaxan, otherwise, they are still looking at grievous bodily harm in terms of charges from the town guards.

There are several possible "happenings":

* Elaxan escapes - in which case he accidently drops the keys and his bag (I included a bag with more stuff) in his bid to escape the PCs. This also means the PCs will be under considerable pressure to clear their names (and thus find the Sodden Hold). I hesitate in the direct to jail approach because I have 7 PCs and I could imagine only one of them being charged.

* Elaxan is captured - in which case he plays the dumb merchant who know nothing (yet things in his possession would say otherwise). Again, if a reward is placed in front of the PCs by the guards or if it seems the guards are not going to do an adequate job in investigating the matter, the PCs might be encouraged to investigate theselves. Particularly if further crimes are committed in their name (by other gang members).

* Elaxan is killed (in which case the PCs names are cleared). This is when you do follow-up attacks, not on the PCs physically but on their reputation. If a series of murders is linked back to them, they will want to clear their names and see justice done to the perps.

I have also wondered about Zyrxog hiring others to take out one of the PCs. If it becomes obvious that someone wants them dead, hopefully they will be inspired to act.

However, if none of this motivates your players, then just roll with it. I'm sure you can come up with something that would lead them to Zyrxog. Alternatively, if it is Eligos that they are waiting for, he can perhaps direct them from one of his divinations that someone wishes them dead - leading them to Zyrxog or Telakin (depending if you have done the doppelganger replacement scheme or not).

The beauty of this module is that it gives you so many tools to play with. And if none of them work, just roll onto the Champion's Belt regardless. They will soon realise Raknian wants them dead anyway. :)

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


Well, if you use the doppelganger replacement hook, you'll at least get the players to the lower level of Telakin's lair. Even if they don't bother investigating to find out who kidnapped one of the party, you can have Zyrxog attack them on the way out, and leave some kind of clue as to where he can be found so the PCs will want to go take him out.

Alternatively, if they're really stubborn, have the doppelgangers kidnap Eligos. The PCs can't get their answers until they rescue him. Have the clues point initially to him being held in Sodden Hold, but when they get there, they find out Zyrxog took him back to his den under Cold Forge.

Yes, it's railroading, but then it's a published adventure, they've got to expect that the DM has some set pieces to drag them through so they'll get the experience they need and accomplish the plot waypoints necessary to move them along the adventure path.


I also had Zyrzog send an assassination team to get the PC's while they were resting up after cleaning out Sodden Hold, rather than just wait around for them to come find him. A pair of Octopins climbing up the walls of the Crooked house then in the windows, plus a Drow Cleric riding a nightmare for ranged spell support really riled my group up, and made them doubly determined to get "squid face" as they called him.


Hastur wrote:
I also had Zyrzog send an assassination team to get the PC's while they were resting up after cleaning out Sodden Hold, rather than just wait around for them to come find him. A pair of Octopins climbing up the walls of the Crooked house then in the windows, plus a Drow Cleric riding a nightmare for ranged spell support really riled my group up, and made them doubly determined to get "squid face" as they called him.

This is exactly what I was looking for when I opened this thread. My players just entered the Sodden Hold last night. I had to really push the "someone's trying to kill you - why?" angle. I was helped by the fact that one of the PCs, in an effort to join the local thieves guild (they're all going after affiliations, which I think is a cool way to motivate the PCs to perform certain missions), has been tasked with infiltrating "The Unseen". Another has become a member of the Gray Hand (a sort of Secret Service in Waterdeep), and basically given the same task.

That, and love of loot, got them in the door. They just finished off the invisible stalker (for God's sake, take one of them out of your adventure, or be prepared for a LOOOONG, frustrating battle) and are at the door to the lower level. Unfortunately, they are out of spells and ready to retreat. It may be difficult to get them to go back in, although it is the middle of the night, so they could replenish their magic with a minimum of rest.

So, I'm having to deal with the possibility that they may not want to finish the Hold, rather call in the Gray Hand and "nuke it from orbit". There's also Zyrzog's response to consider either way. A DM's work is never done...


No offense, Stonesnake, but the impression I get from your post is that YOU don't want to run HOHR. Your examples of the PCs being attacked and just shrugging it off & continuing onward; or being arrested and their reputations sullied & just continuing onward; or being captured and managing to escape & just continuing onward all sounds pretty lame to me. It doesn't sound like any good roleplaying is taking place. What person would escape from a kidnapping and not give it another thought? Or be framed for a crime they didn't commit and not care? Or experience a failed assassination attempt and just shrug it off as insignificant? If the reactions you describe accurately portray how your players play then how do you motivate them to do ANYTHING?
If, on the other hand, something about this module doesn't appeal to you as the DM; then you are certainly free to modify it or skip it altogether. Several others have posted threads to a similar intent in the past and as far as I know, things worked out fine for them.
My group is just finishing HOHR and we had a ball with it. Sure, one night there was a disasterous TPK that threatened to destroy the whole campaign but the plot/storyline itself is quite interesting and fun. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the motivation for this module is sorta out of the characters' hands. Things keep happening to them and they've got to get to the bottom of these mysterious scenarios. It's a little like classic Scooby-Doo cartoons. In the end, it all would've worked out (Raknian & Zyrog & Telakin's plot) if it weren't for those meddling kids! Anyway, my advice is to give this module a chance. It may surprise you. And shaking things up with something that is a little different than what scenarios players normally enjoy might just open all of you up to whole new possibilities in gaming fun.


wampuscat43 wrote:
They just finished off the invisible stalker (for God's sake, take one of them out of your adventure, or be prepared for a LOOOONG, frustrating battle) and are at the door to the lower level.

My party was forced to retreat after the first encounter with the stalkers. When they came back, I had Telakin post one in the warehouse room to replace the dead mimics. He tried to flee once the (now prepared for invisible opponents) party started to whomp him, but he didn't make it. They had little trouble with the second stalker, even though they had burned some of their invisibility countermeasures magic. The party took Watam Gattel and a captured doppelganger to the high priest of the Heironean Sanctum, and were able with his help to get enough clues about the scope of the doppelgangers' operation that they were very motivated to go back in. (Well, they were already, because Elaxan had slipped out of their grasp in the encounter at the Crooked House, resulting in the party wizard being arrested and then imprisoned in Sodden Hold. Little did they realize that they had rescued his doppel replacement rather than the real Barbazad, until they later made it down to the lower level of the dungeon and fought their doubles. After that, they REALLY wanted to get to the bottom of the plot against them. They're preparing to go after Zyrxog next.


Yet to run this one but ive worked a pc's backround into it, basically his father will replaced by a dopplelganger, it will be him that trys to replace his son. His family features heavily in the AP2 they run the able coaching Inn, exiles from calimshan, they have lots of southern goods to sell in waterdeep. But his father also caught up in summugling not his choice but that ever so lovely Smenk pulling the strings.

So im hoping that injects a bit more into the HoHR and makes it more fun. Always find that if an adventure is lacking in your eyes then add to it with personnal stuff to you characters could only be a scene or even more but it makes them remmeber that if they remmeber a story because of that they enjoy the rest


It's a good module, especially if interesting things happen.
My Telepath contacted the other party members, one of which
brought back a doppleganger half dead.
When they first encountered the mind flayer they killed him/it.
You might consider having squid head plane shift rather than
mind blast if the party includes enough combat experts that
2 not being stunned are deadly.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I recruited a player for the doppleganger replacement, so I had the problem of not wanting the group to discover the other doppleganger in the tavern because I didn't want them to be aware of dopp involvement too early. My player had already decided to change little things about his char when playing the dopp, so that observant players would note something was "off" about him. So... if they already had dopps on the mind... it could blow things too early.

However, without revealing the dopp and the key, there's no link to the Sodden Hold for them to follow. So, I went with the arrest. As for, "well, they'll just break out of the jail or fight the watch and get away.".... not if you do it right. This is a MAJOR city, and as such, I expect the watch to be equipped and able to deal with major problems. The group already had a warning of resisting the watch / vigilante justice in their encounter with the thieves during the parade, and I set that up just to ensure they got the lesson that trying to overpower the watch by force is a BIG mistake.

Once they were in the Sodden Hold, my next problem was how to make them want to do anything other than find their stuff and get out. So, I told the player with the dopp that if the group gets outside the Sodden Hold without having found his REAL char, he needs to drop the charade and attack them. That's what happened, he reverted to dopp form upon his death, and now the group is turned around to explore the Hold further in search of their abudcted party member.


Tiger Lily wrote:

I recruited a player for the doppleganger replacement, so I had the problem of not wanting the group to discover the other doppleganger in the tavern because I didn't want them to be aware of dopp involvement too early. My player had already decided to change little things about his char when playing the dopp, so that observant players would note something was "off" about him. So... if they already had dopps on the mind... it could blow things too early.

However, without revealing the dopp and the key, there's no link to the Sodden Hold for them to follow. So, I went with the arrest. As for, "well, they'll just break out of the jail or fight the watch and get away.".... not if you do it right. This is a MAJOR city, and as such, I expect the watch to be equipped and able to deal with major problems. The group already had a warning of resisting the watch / vigilante justice in their encounter with the thieves during the parade, and I set that up just to ensure they got the lesson that trying to overpower the watch by force is a BIG mistake.

Once they were in the Sodden Hold, my next problem was how to make them want to do anything other than find their stuff and get out. So, I told the player with the dopp that if the group gets outside the Sodden Hold without having found his REAL char, he needs to drop the charade and attack them. That's what happened, he reverted to dopp form upon his death, and now the group is turned around to explore the Hold further in search of their abudcted party member.

Actually there was a link to Sodden Hold. The dagger used by the doppelganger in the Crooked house to stab the bartender had a image on it which a skilled rogue using gather information should be able to tie together to the warehouse. This helped alot for my group as the party rogue was already tapped an replaced with the doppelganger before the other one attacked posing as yet another party member. They never caught the one that stabbed the bartender because of the chaos, but he did leave the dagger behind as a clue. So with that clue and the rogue/doppelganger in place it was very easy for them to decide to go to Sodden Hold.


As I read it, the only thing the dagger tells you is that it matches the one used to stab Tarquin, thus helping the PCs avoid arrest. It has no link to Sodden Hold (not that it's a bad idea, if a little hard to rationalize).


wampuscat43 wrote:
As I read it, the only thing the dagger tells you is that it matches the one used to stab Tarquin, thus helping the PCs avoid arrest. It has no link to Sodden Hold (not that it's a bad idea, if a little hard to rationalize).

The link is the key itself, which has markings of a long defunct merchant group that had holdings down in the docks district. I make heavy use of knowledge skills in the game and this was a pretty straight forward Knowledge(local) or Bardic Knowledge item.

I tell ya... my group jumped all over this. They were thinking it could be Smenk (who was led off in chains) or the Triad that was involved.

I also had them get jumped by Smenk (who had bought his way out) and some cronies. The funny thing is that the rogue (who joined the party only a session before) that had been replaced gets killed by the albino half-orc... and reverts before their eyes. Now they have no idea what to think... if it was Smenk why would they kill their own guy on this inside and why would he be trying to kill them. Who in the party is really themselves. Throw in Allustan, their patron, being showing up in the end to destroy them and it is total chaos and the curiosity should be going wild.

We just finished off the mind flayer last night and as my group leveled to 9th... they had huge smiles on their face and total confusion in their eyes... why now would a great leader of the Free City want them dead? Why indeed?

The hooks are pretty easy to string together with just a little bit of creativity, entertaining a bit of their false ideas, and really hitting it home when they get on the right track. If the party is N to G in general and even a bit adventurous (one would hope LOL) they should be biting hook line and sinker.

This was a fun module and leads well into the next few where they really start to get an idea of what the Age of Worms actually is.


Hastur wrote:
I also had Zyrzog send an assassination team to get the PC's while they were resting up after cleaning out Sodden Hold, rather than just wait around for them to come find him. A pair of Octopins climbing up the walls of the Crooked house then in the windows, plus a Drow Cleric riding a nightmare for ranged spell support really riled my group up, and made them doubly determined to get "squid face" as they called him.

That's almost exactly what I did, except I only used two Octopins. Their trail went back into the sewers to re-enforce the need to continue looking there.


Replying to the OP:

There are several reasons the party should want to do the adventure.

1) The big one: Elaxan tries to frame the PCs for murder and leaves behind a clue as to his origin. If I were a PC, I would want to know who is trying to frame me for murder and why as this person is clearly an enemy.
2) Justice. The attempt to frame the PCs wasn't the only crime, it was also attempted murder against Tarquin! The PCs should have their sense of justice tingled by this affront. This is a particularly good hook for paladins.
3) Ixiaxian wants to lead the PCs there into a trap, so he will do his best to steer them that way. If you decided to cut this part out of the adventure, you are depriving yourself of a very useful tool, but it is your choice.

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