A Kinder Gentler Tongue-Eater?


Shackled City Adventure Path


Hullo,

I'm afraid for my players. I'm afraid because they really struggled against the alleybashers at the Lucky Monkey... and they are badly hurt... and one got away to warn Tounge-Eater. So I'm going to give them a couple rounds before Tounge-Eater and his baboon posse come and wipe the floor with them.

I'm really not looking for a TPK, but it looks like that could happen easily enough. Do you think Tongue-Eater would have any reason "not" to kill them and eat their toungues? It said that they could be imprisioned in some rooms on the first level. But why would the big ape want to capture them versus kill them? Especially considering that they wiped out half his men.


What adventure is this?


This would be the beginning section of "Flood Season"


The players haven't read the magazine (one would assume), so there is no reason things have to be as they are in the magazine if it will make the game not as fun. Now, I am all for letting the dice fall as they may, but what happens next doesn't have to do with dice until the next combat starts. Everything up to that point is mutable by you... you're creating the story.

Here is what I would do:

I would bust out the feralized, jacked-up Tongue-Eater you have seen on the boards here. Then I would bring him in as you have stated above. Once he has had a chance to really shine, but presumably before he kills any PCs have Sarcem bust into the room.

That's right... Sarcem is not dead. At least not yet. We are changing the story a littler here. Tongue-Eater will still kill Sarcem, but hopefully with the PCs help Sarcem will stand a good chance of helping them return the favor. Just make sure Tongue-Eater finished him off.

Then it is story as normal.

Sean Mahoney


Sean's idea seems a good one to me.

However, were your players just really unlucky (lots of crits against them etc)? If not, then they are "dead men walking" into the rest of the adventures to come. Those alleybashers etc are (relatively) push overs compared to what awaits them. They need a major power upgrade via side trek or rewards from Jenya etc if they are to survive even one major encounter (if, as I say, this was a typical performance and not some aberration of the dice).


Thanks guys, it was actually an "aberration of the dice". I scored about five or six crits in that session alone, plus the fighter made a bunch of grapple attempts without the Improved Grapple Feat and got nailed with the AO every time. Plus I think I hit about 90% of the time. In addition to that, half the Alley Bashers used used their potions to heal up. So now the party is really hurting, with few potions to recover and the wizard had to use some of the spells he was planning to save for the boss.

I don't always let the cards fall where they may, heh. I change things up quite a bit, I just couldn't think of a way to divert this particular situation. I'm almost in a mind to make Tongue-Eater a re-occuring villian, just becuase he's such a fun villian. &:) I think if he gets down in hit points I'll have him and all the baboons crash through the windows and flee into the jungle. Maybe have him reoccur after the players have gone up a level. :)

I really like the idea of Sacrem giving his life in defense of the heroes. It would draw them even closer to the Temple of St. Cuthbert and knock Tongue-Eater down a peg. Thanks for the ideas!

Scarab Sages

Sean C. Macdonald wrote:
Thanks guys, it was actually an "aberration of the dice"...

I think not:

OK, some crits are going to skew the result, but it sounds to me like your players need to be nailed to the floor as a wake-up call.
I must confess to being a player in the SCAP, and I have promised to stay out of this forum so as not to spoil the game, but hearing someone wondering whether to TONE DOWN a villain, simply due to what I can only describe as the PCs own incompetence, forced me to reply.
My DM was good enough to go over some of the fine details of the adventure, once we had trounced everyone, and it seems that good planning is half the battle.
My group had their fair share of bad luck, too.
The raptors dropped one PC to negatives before we even got in. The rogue failed a Tumble ("anything but a 1! Whoooah! Splat!") and fell off the staircase into a pack of feral uber-baboons, who punched his lights out in the same round. The cleric took 3 AoO hits while diving after him to stabilise him. The half-orc mincing machine failed to roll above a 5 for 4 rounds vs Tongue-eater, who smacked him silly... and that was just for starters. But we didn't whinge and complain, like modern players ("That CR was wasn't in line with our projected xp-to-treasure ratio; it says so on this graph I downloaded from YourDMisalwayswrong.com, boo hoo hoo!").

We sucked it up and laughed it off, and proceeded to slaughter the rest like fish in a barrel. Despite almost losing every PC at some point that session, we'll remember that fight for years to come. At the end of the day, there's no reason every challenge has to be set to the party's level, and we picked a fight with them, after all.

20 Steps toward a TVK (Total Villain Kill):
Scout premises,
Locate all opposition,
Locate stairs to basement,
Establish entrance unguarded,

(All of which can be done from outside).

Enter quietly,
Take down enemy boss first. Reduce buff-up time, prevent orders being given, commandeer valuable magical ordnance.
Enter basement, in pursuit of mission objective.
Sweep up dregs of resistance.
Retrieve corpse of allied agent.
Rescue second allied agent.
Establish alarm not raised.
Agree on signal to attack.
Surround bar.
Enter bar.
Kill everything that moves; warriors and rogues to hack felons to pieces. All fleeing felons to be shot/burnt alive.
Gather loot.
Take agent's body back to HQ.
Take enemy boss head for interrogation.
Stick enemy boss head on a spike, parade it round town, bask in the glory.
Establish PC's superiority over limp-wristed Stormblades.

If that sounds like a serious, paramilitary operation, then GOOD. Newsflash for your players, they ARE a serious paramilitary unit. And they should be acting like one.

Obviously I'm not privy to the full details of the session, but it seems like your PCs were just dumb or careless. Things they really need to address in future:

Of course you'll get beat if you just walk in the front door into a crowded bar; there's loads of entrances to the Lucky Monkey. Even if you can't get in the locked windows, or over the roof to the garden, or down the chimney, there's 3 (count'em, 3) external doors, one of which is totally unguarded. What's that? You didn't realise the bar was occupied? Gee, well, maybe you could try an advanced stealth tactic, aka Looking in the ****ing Window?

What the hell are you doing letting a bunch of drunken goons raise an alarm? What with the penalties to hit, penalties to Spot/Listen, noisy drunken revelling, the fact that 4 of them were (apparently) bonking each other in a side room with their pants round their ankles, how on earth did they give you a hard time? You could have taken out half of them just by hiding in the privy and slitting their throats when they went for a wizz.
If you can't beat a room full of rent-a-thugs when they're pickled out of their heads, then you need to hand in your dice.

And don't get me started on the grappling fighter...How about next fight you use that sharp, heavy, pointy, metal thing at your waist? You know, that weapon you're actually proficient in? Or do you only get THAT out at your fratboy parties to crack open your kegs? What were you trying to do? Give the guy a noogie, a purple nurple or a wedgie? How about next time, the fighter tries a new tactic...like, duh, I dunno...fighting? Like, as in killing? Then, like, Cleaving? Then, like doing it again? Until the enemies are all, like, dead? As opposed to alive, and swarming around and raising the alarm?

It sounds as though the players are either incapable of planning, or don't see a need, because, Hey, it's the DM's job to scale down the encounters if we get beat up, right? We'll just goof around, f**k up, and giggle like a bunch of retards.

If you start holding their hands and wiping their arses for them, they'll expect it in future sessions, and whilst it may be realistic for a low-CR opponent to miss/flee/not use his abilities to the max, it's going to be real difficult once the PCs meet the true movers and shakers. What are you gonna do then?
"Hmm, they're all unconcious, TPK coming up...OK, the Arch Lord of all Evil, trips on a banana skin and impales himself on his sword, dropping his bag of cure potions, which smash into a puddle, which drips into your mouths...Hey, You're all alive! Well done, you heroes, you saved the world!"

Sheesh.

Sean C. Macdonald wrote:
I'm almost in a mind to make Tongue-Eater a re-occuring villian, just because he's such a fun villian. &:) I think if he gets down in hit points I'll have him and all the baboons crash through the windows and flee into the jungle. Maybe have him reoccur after the players have gone up a level. :)

Don't have him recur just because he's fun...Have him recur because he smashes the party to a bloody pulp and feasts on their marrow. Force the surviving PCs to flee for their lives, while this slavering beast hunts them down one by one.

One way to avoid a TPK is, paradoxically, to have him rage. He'll absolutely obliterate one or two PCs, and chase the others into the jungle, but just as the last survivor is about to have his throat torn out, he'll fall down fatigued (calling his baboons to stand guard over him), so the shrieking PC can escape with his life, to go back to town and recruit some new blood who actually take the enemy seriously.

As for the party meeting him once they've levelled up, what about his levels? Don't forget that the CR of a creature represents that they should be an inconvenience to a party of that level (ie, that the odds are against them, and it's expected that they lose). Therefore, if an NPC actually takes on a party, and WINS, or even just gives them a bloody nose and escapes, then they have survived beyond the odds, and should get a HUGE amount of xp themselves. What's the CR of your party worth to him?

Sean C. Macdonald wrote:
I really like the idea of Sarcem giving his life in defense of the heroes. It would draw them even closer to the Temple of St. Cuthbert and knock Tongue-Eater down a peg. Thanks for the ideas!

I just realised, in order for this to occur, the party can't have seen Tongue-eater playing with Sarcem's severed head (which, I gather, is part of the standard boxed text, no?).

In other words, it can only happen if the party never did something as basic as looking through the window, yeah?
Thus proving my (admittedly, highly sarcastic) points above, Hmm?

Yup, Sarcem giving his life is absolutely priceless.
In other words, "Hey, the guy we came to rescue is still alive after all!"
SPLAT! REND! GOUGE! TEAR! EAT!
"Hmm, make that WAS still alive...".

He can act as a shining example to them, valiantly smiting the foe, and taunting them for their cowardice. I'd be tempted to have his head turn up back at the temple, even if the players don't bring it themselves. It'd be great to see the look on their faces when Jenya casts speak with dead, and he reveals to all the clergy that he died because the party were a bunch of stupid dicks.


Similar to what Snorter stated above, my PCs were having a tough time with TE (the normal one) and his posse. He raged and was tearing into them, dropping two. But I honestly kept track of rage rounds and as the PCs were thinking of fleeing, TE dropped dead after his rage extra hp ran out. Kinda funny actually. They were about to flee and regroup and TE dropped just as they were exiting the door....

Scarab Sages

Come on, Sean!

What happened to the PCs?

Don't leave me hanging!


Snorter wrote:

Come on, Sean!

What happened to the PCs?

Don't leave me hanging!

LOL, after all that ranting. :) Ok,here's what happened. To be honest these guys are 4th level and I think they should at least be 5th to face TE. Plus I didn't run the allybashers as being drunk, so the AB didn't get any penalties when they fought the party. The PCs were really hurting but I gave the Favored Soul some time to heal up the party a bit before TE came out. The scout went sneaking around and headed up stairs and heard the Alleybashers going through the room up there. Meanwhile the Spelltheif was looking through the windows trying to find out what was in the courtyard and the others tied up one of the allybashers, but not very well. He got out, grabbed a sword, tried to get away and they cut him down. Then the elven scout returned and reported about the movement upstairs.

About this time, (Improved) TE comes tearing around the corner at top speed and charges the scout. He rips him to shreds and the scout is BADLY injured. The scout tumbles away and shoots an arrow into TE for 17 points of damage, which makes TE flip out and rage and he starts screaming and beating his chest.

Then the half-orc barbarian rushed forward to attack and missed. In return TE mauls the half-orc dropping him at the end of his attack. The rest of the party is in shock and the wizard is advising for every to run. The scout has to agree since he's bleeding heavily.

Then the three elite baboons show up and start attacking and the party starts withdrawing. The spellthief casts expiditous retreat and runs, the wizard casts some spell that conjures a dagger to attack TE and runs, the monk runs and the half-orc that is laying at TE feet actually stablizes and stops bleeding... until TE reaches down and rips out his tounge and eats it. The party is craping their pants by now and the half-orc barbarian is now bleeding again and he's not stopping.

The scout does not head outside, but instead heads down a hallway. Everyone else tries to get out the side door (except for the monk that bolted out the front door). The favored soul is the slowest in the party with only a move of 20 she she is last out and TE jumps up on the bar and runs down the length of it and charges her from the bar. She gets hit hard, but because she had been at full hit points manages to survive, but another full round attack will take her out for sure.

One of the baboons had manged to slip out down the hall before the favored soul and it charged the scout. The scout backed down the hall firing arrows and spoted a figure behind him. He thought for sure it was an allybasher, but when he looked he saw that the man behind him was wearing armor with the symbols of St. Cuthbert on them and the man was saying, "Get out of my way!" So the scout moved past the man and let him move through. The cleric (Sacrem) killed the baboon and noticing TE at the end of the hall started to cast a spell.

The favored soul withdrew to the side door leading outside with the wizard at her back, he cast Bull's Strength on her and they waited for another baboon that slipped past TE. Meanwhile the monk, seeing that TE and the baboons have moved into the hallway and out of the main room, heads back to see if she can save the half-orc from dying.

TE sees Sacrem and says "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD!" (and the party went... he can talk?!?) Sacrem's reply was "You're going to wish I was," and he unleashed a flamestrike on TE's head. TE survived, but he was still badly wounded, then TE mauled the cleric to death and jumped up and down on him in a blood rage, the scout decided that this was his last shot and that after this, he had to run or he would be dead, (since he was now down to 1 hit point) and he took his last shot on TE and ran. The arrow hit (1d6 damage, +1 weapon, +3 strength, +1d6 scout movement, +1d6 sonic that the wizard had cast on bow) and that was enough to bring TE to negatives, then the party closed in an finished him off.

The half-orc barbarian was one hit point away from being dead when the monk got to him and stopped the bleeding.

So overall a very memorable fight. The whole party thought for sure that they were going to be toast. Four of the six of them were dying or within single digits in hit points.

After they realized that TE was a lycanthrope half of them paid through the nose at the temple of Wee Jas for Remove Curses since they had been bit. Not to mention the regeneration they had to pay for to get the half-orc's tongue back. :)


Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.....

When we played thru that one, our group dropped TE in one friggin round...

Granted, we *had* already scouted the place pretty carefully, liberated the ally, and made plans. We located the bad guys and focussed on the one that appeared teh main threat. That would be...TongueEater.

One round.

Dead.

Of course, the hallway *did* look like a medieval-fantasy Delta Force team about to hit the place.....


Snorter wrote:

I think not:

...

::Softly Applauding::

Amen, Snorter. The dreaded Tongueater was decimated by my party of 5 after they cased the place and snuck in through the back door, taking the hallway directly to the kitchen and laying down a vicious spanking on the werebaboon before any aid could make it to him. From there, the "dregs" of the resistance were mopped up handily. Kicking in the front door at the Lucky Monkey is suicide.


Snorter wrote:
Sean C. Macdonald wrote:
Thanks guys, it was actually an "aberration of the dice"...

I think not:

OK, some crits are going to skew the result, but it sounds to me like your players need to be nailed to the floor as a wake-up call.

If Sean did have a 90% hit ratio, that is indeed an aberration and a very steep one at that. My own guesstimation is that common thugs like the Alleybashers should hit at best 50% of the time; they make up for lack of skill with sheer numbers. (Drakthar's Way goblins anyone?) Hitting 90% of the time is astonomical.

So if Sean's group is bunch of newbies who've never played the game before and are still getting used to their characters, roleplaying, and the rules, they should be punished with a TPK, which is what you seem to be suggesting? I think not. Depending on the players, they just might pack it in after that happens. (Other threads on this board have indicated that TPKs have ended several SCAP campaigns.)

You're assuming a level of expertise that just might not be there. The players don't have to be newbies, either, to use poor tactics or have an incomplete grasp on the rules. Without using published adventures (i.e., a complete home-brew world and adventures), the group only knows what it's read and the experiences they've had. It's very easy to read, interpret, and run a rule the wrong way. We'd played almost two years before I realized you can't flank with a bow. :-\

Now, with a published campaign, the DM may realize that a lot of the things they've been doing all along were wrong. Strategies have to change because the rules are different than what the group is used to and that takes time. (Like the rogue in our group who could no longer sneak attack with his bow...)

And then there's the possibility that they don't want to be tactical experts or have uber-cheese monkey characters. They may want to gloss over combats and get to the meat of the adventure -- roleplaying. (Though in the SCAP, there'd be a LOT of glossing over to do.)

I don't know the whole situation so I don't know if any of this applies to Sean's situation but, then again, I doubt you do either, Snorter. You're making a big (and in my opinion, bad) assumption that the best way players learn is by getting smacked down. And calling them dumb...we all do dumb things from time to time. It happens.

The point is, there are a lot of things to consider and taking draconian measures (even if this is Dungeons & Dragons ;-) ) very rarely helps.


While I agree name-calling is not necessary, I will say this: there's little to justify poor planning. Basic scouting / recon techniques should not be beyond the grasp of even the newest players. My group is, admittedly, not new to D&D, but they hadn't played in years, and had never played 3rd edition. The greater complexity of the rules and bewildering array of character options was daunting to all of them, but by the time they worked their way to Flood Season, they were working together cohesively in the most basic ways. They didn't extensively case the place, which would have been easy considering they had two stealthy characters at the time. But they also did not simply go through the front door. For me, the bottom line is that the bad guys will react as intelligently as they are able to take advantage of an obvious mistake on the part of the players. A lot of the fun of D&D is in outwitting one's enemies, and very seldom is kicking in the door the smartest way to begin an encounter. I do not advocate punishing players for making bad decisions; I DO advocate having the bad guys respond appropriately to a poorly planned assault. Otherwise, you harm the suspension of disbelief of everyone involved.


Sean C. Macdonald wrote:
Thanks guys, it was actually an "aberration of the dice". I scored about five or six crits in that session alone, plus the fighter made a bunch of grapple attempts without the Improved Grapple Feat and got nailed with the AO every time. Plus I think I hit about 90% of the time. In addition to that, half the Alley Bashers used used their potions to heal up. So now the party is really hurting, with few potions to recover and the wizard had to use some of the spells he was planning to save for the boss.

Suddenly, I know how you feel. My group stepped into the Lucky Monkey last night and, man, it's been ugly. I, too, rolled very well for the drunks -- 4 crit threats, plus a crit. No one dropped, but a couple were very close and this was even with me making some consciously poor tactical decisions (the Alleybashers and Hillfolk are drunk after all).

Then they stepped into it with Tongue-eater. Ugh. I used the jacked-up, feralized version and it's been a nightmare for the group.

This is how the battle's gone so far: The group entered the hallway leading from the common room past the supply room and into the office after observing the courtyard and deciding not to go there and face the baboons they saw in the trees.

The rogue, invisible, snuck to the northwesternmost door (where the short hallway connects to the kitchen) and entered. Philip, the party's paladin, opened the door to the kitchen from the office and we rolled initiative. For the second combat in a row, the quick fighter (+6 initiative modifier) rolled a nat 20 for a 26. For the second combat in a row, a bad guy tied his initiative, but won out because of the +7 init mod.

Tongue-eater moved across the room and whacked the paladin good. The paladin smacked back, then took a 5-foot step back. The cleric took a 5-foot step up and connected with his morningstar. The warmage and wizard, being smart people, put two and two together and realized that the bridge that's accessed from behind the bar in the common room connects to the kitchen. So they spend the next three rounds moving there. Yes, they split the party. Not so smart warmage and wizard.

Round two found Tongue-eater mauling the cleric; round three, the quick fighter was hit with the claw/claw/bite routine and dropped from full hit points even though he had cover -- nothing less than a 15 on any of the to hit rolls.

Meanwhile, the invisibile rogue peaked into the kitchen and tried to decide how to attack Tongue-eater. He seriously debated different tactics for almost 10 minutes. Thankfully, he realized the futility and closed the door.

The paladin wisely closed the door and the warmage unwisely opened the other kitchen door.

Yeah, they're not using very good tactics and it might very well come back to bite them in their rears.

Next week will be interesting, that's for sure...


I opted to play Tongueater very differently. My players were very thorough in scouting the Lucky Monkey and defeating the majority of the Alleybashers and bandits before cornering Tongueater and his baboon entourage with a small remainder of Alleybashers in the suite directly above the kitchen. Since his numbers were dwindling and the outlook was beginning to look bleak for an easy victory, Tongueater held out until the final battle ensued.

When the PCs busted in, his minions engaged them while he raged his way through the crowd. He bullrushed the wizard, attempting to push him out the window above the stairs to the kitchen. When that failed, he continued his escape down the stairs. But his fate was sealed by a well cast bolt of lightning as the mage stumbled down the stairs after him.

Even though Tongueater is a tough fight, I decided to play him this way for story purposes. Because of his intense desire to escape the battle, my players rightly assumed that his goal was to provide a warning to his superior and that gave them a stronger sense that they were encountering something more than a band of brigands and thieves. They next uncovered the existence of the Ebon Triad and were very motivated to uncover more after returning to Cauldron.

In my group, this little switch with Tongueater really helped to drive the story for my players. They were very thorough about gathering any information on the Ebon Triad and developed a real enmity for Triel, once her name had been uncovered.

In the end, I liked doing it this way because villains aren't supposed to stand their ground heroically. At times, they make better cowards and Tongueater fit this role very nicely.

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