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Strategies vs Dragotha


Age of Worms Adventure Path

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Greetings, all. I'm new to the forums, but not to D&D (been playing since the red Basic box). First, wanted to say I'm loving the AoW adventure path. Good job, Paizo. But mostly I'm wondering how other players have handled taking down Dragotha. IMO, one of the best aspects of publishing adventures with "classic" characters and places is sharing how one dealt with them with other players. AoW has included such things as the Rod of Seven Parts, the Hand of Vecna, and now Dragotha. What was it like for others facing that undead monstrosity?

Our party's solution seemed to be oversimplified, but our DM allowed it. Below is what happened (scroll down due to spoilers):

Since Dragotha is like a legendary undead, we figured he would have all sorts of resistances and powers; a standard fight would be suicidal. We decided it would be best if we could get him in an environment that would be detrimental to him. After powering up with the standard Bless, Greater Magic Weapons, Aligned Weapons, etc. we had a description of the inner sanctum by Balakarde so we Greater Teleported in. Immediately rolling for initiative (Dragotha rolled a "1"!) the cleric cast Gate, creating a portal behind and below the perched Dragotha leading to the Positive Material Plane. I, the wizard, cast Polymorph Any Object on the fighter to turn him into a Titan (for high strength). The thief cast Grease from a Minor Spell Storing ring on top of the zigguraut, and the fighter then flew up and initiated a bull rush to shove Dragotha through the gate. The undead got off one bite in the rush (63 pts of damage) but lost the strength check and was pushed through. The cleric ceased concentration on the gate, closing it, and then we waited. We were hoping that a couple rounds in the Positive Material Plane would weaken him enough to make the fight easier before he returned, but he never came back. Our DM said, after double checking Dragotha's stats, that he didn't have anything that allowed extra-planar travel. Also, he didn't have anything to help protect from the effects of the Positive Material Plane, so he ruled that Dragotha perished in the positive energy furnaces.

I find it hard to believe that Dragotha couldn't travel between planes, but I glanced at a copy of the magazine in a store and I couldn't spot anything, either. Well, that was our showdown. Hope you enjoyed it. How did others do?


Did the fight feel anti-clmactic to you?

You guys had a great plan and a generous DM. Its good that the DM rewarded you for the careful plan.

Hindsight is 20/20 as th addage goes, but what would have been cool is if Dragotha had grabbed the Titan (or another player, ala Balrog from Lord of the Rings) before falling through. The DM could then allow the party to follow Dragotha through the gate, and finish Dragotha off in his weakened state.


That's a good point, I've Got Reach. Having the scene ala Balrog would have been cinematic! There's always the fight with Kyuss, I guess.

But the DM let us have it with Dragotha's buddies (the avolakias led by the derro, backed up with the nightcrawlers). It still wasn't easy.


Of course if you had a good time then all is well. But you did not follow the rules as written for Polymorph Any Object. The first sentence in the spell is, "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

Polymorph has a HD limit of 15 (much greater than a Titan) and doesn't allow changes to Outsiders (among other Types).

Also, if you fail the Reflex save in the Grease spell you fall to the ground, you don't slide. The Grease spell from a Ring of Spell Storing would be @ minimum caster level (e.g. Reflex DC: 11) which I'm sure Dragotha could've made anyway, at least 95% of the time.


*Aw, snap!*

I just checked the description in the PH. You're right, JDillard. Major fau paux on my part. I'm surprised our DM didn't catch that, as well. I can bring that to the attention of our DM, but I don't know if he will want to replay the whole session or not. Also, the idea of the Grease spell was to aid in the bull rush attempt, not to actually cause Dragotha to fall. Our DM likes it when we utilize teamwork. But like you said, we all had fun.


Your DM made a tough decision; let the BBEG take the fall. It's really hard not to try and pull a DM caveat just to save some face and avoid an anticlimactic fight. It sounds like your group had some very careful planning, and I'm glad you have a DM that rewards that.

My group had a similar experience with the spell weaver lich. By the time they fought him it was late in the evening, and I hadn't checked ahead on Paizo for any possible mistakes. Our wizard used a Gust of Wind to force the lich into multiple concentration checks, and from what I saw its skill was only +9. Since he was forced to make a DC +30 check, he went down very easily.

One thing that interested me was that in a quick post-mortem of the module, my players said they wouldn't have minded if I had just arbitrarily changed it... even if I told them right then I was changing it. Some DMs might be able to get away with that kind of tweaking with their groups, others won't... just don't get used to it ;) I have a feeling my group is going to have a particularly rough time when they fight the rival party in Library of Last Resort.


Whatever you do, do NOT try to melee Dragotha! I almost lost a bladesinger that way. I used my rod of meta-magic (quicken) to Dimension Door and get in his face and still be able to get a full attack (not to mention avoid his Aoo). I then used my Arcane Strike feat to burn an 8th level spell for 8d4 extra damage just to show big D what he was up against. I figured that my Stoneskin spell and my maximized False Life together with my relatively high AC gave me a decent chance to survive his first offensive flurry. After that I would make another full attack with AS and quicken DD away.

My full attack did over 100 dmg, however he merely sneered at me and said "My turn." His bite attack did almost that much and his first claw triggered my contingincy Dimension Door (set to go off if reduce to 30hp or less, I droped to 7). Needless to say my bladesinger spent the rest of the fight running through her Summon Monster spells (After using up her Cure potions).

In closing melee a gainst Dragotha is busted, don't try it!


Mal-Duroth wrote:
I used my rod of meta-magic (quicken) to Dimension Door and get in his face and still be able to get a full attack (not to mention avoid his Aoo).

I don't mean to be the rules lawyer, but this is not possible by the RAW. In the text of DD, you will find, "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn."

Of course you could still full attack and then quickened DD away, but the reverse is not possible by RAW.

Just saying :)


Oops, I forgot about that. I can't beleive my DM let me get away with it, he's usually on top of that stuff. Not that it helped much, I still got my butt handed to me and barely gave D a hangnail.


My pc's are gonna die.. They don't plan ahead or anything. They just smash down the door and roll inititave..


Tak wrote:
My pc's are gonna die.. They don't plan ahead or anything. They just smash down the door and roll inititave..

That sounds like it's going to be an entertaining tale! Hope you can retell it later.


With some feat that gives them good aligned sneak attack,
flanking, 2 linked weapons of legacy that foil all undead
damage soak, that thing will need 1,000 hit points to survive
to when it can attack.
Sadly, an ally can summon the big baddie out of the Positive
Energy Plane.


Tak wrote:
My pc's are gonna die.. They don't plan ahead or anything. They just smash down the door and roll inititave..

If that's the way they do it, in all likelyhood, they will not even get this far.


gameboydb wrote:


Since Dragotha is like a legendary undead, we figured he would have all sorts of resistances and powers; a standard fight would be suicidal. We decided it would be best if we could get him in an environment that would be detrimental to him. After powering up with the standard Bless, Greater Magic Weapons, Aligned Weapons, etc. we had a description of the inner sanctum by Balakarde so we Greater Teleported in. Immediately rolling for initiative (Dragotha rolled a "1"!) the cleric cast Gate, creating a portal behind and below the perched Dragotha leading to the Positive Material Plane. I, the wizard, cast Polymorph Any Object on the fighter to turn him into a Titan (for high strength). The thief cast Grease from a Minor Spell Storing ring on top of the zigguraut, and the fighter then flew up and initiated a bull rush to shove Dragotha through the gate. The undead got off one bite in the rush (63 pts of damage) but lost the strength check and was pushed through. The cleric ceased concentration on the gate, closing it, and then we waited. We were hoping that a couple rounds in the Positive Material Plane would weaken him enough to make the fight easier before he returned, but he never came back. Our DM said, after double checking Dragotha's stats, that he didn't have anything that allowed extra-planar travel. ...

Is your DM inexperienced? I'm sorry, but I just get upset when a storyteller does such a poor job as yours did. It ruins the whole experience and the story for everyone involved.


Lord Vile wrote:

Is your DM inexperienced? I'm sorry, but I just get upset when a storyteller does such a poor job as yours did. It ruins the whole experience and the story for everyone involved.

Care to elaborate? That's pretty harsh criticism for something that's not obviously a problem. At least one other poster has commended the DM.


I took over three hours preparing for my PCs showdown with Darl Quethos' group in Library of Last Resort. This was just for Darl, mind you. Darl has a list of options to him the length of a stretch limo, and thats before we start talking about equipment. Add in devils, ifeet and ninjas, and you've got an extremely complicated encounter.

I'm going to miss something. We (DMs) all do. I've read articles in which the industries best forget things on the fly. It happens.

So when someone polymorphs into a Titan (remember that they are likely to be Level 20 characters) or wants to use the spell grease as a lubricant, it isn't necessarily the mark of a bad DM. Its possible that a DM knows up front that the PCs couldn't have accomplished these feats in the first place, but allowed it simply because it seemed like the right thing to do.


Schmoe wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:

Is your DM inexperienced? I'm sorry, but I just get upset when a storyteller does such a poor job as yours did. It ruins the whole experience and the story for everyone involved.

Care to elaborate? That's pretty harsh criticism for something that's not obviously a problem. At least one other poster has commended the DM.

Sure, I would be glad to elaborate. What would you like to discuss first? The statistical improbabilities of this encounter or the negative impact the DM's performance had on the story overall?

To be honest I don't have access to the books or adventures till I get home for work i.e. I won't be able to compare and contrast spell effects like the radius of the Gate v. Dragothas dimensions for now (6pm EST).

So, I guess I'll start off by analyzing the information we do have of the incident. First, we will have to agree on the party composition unless we hear from Gameboydb. From reading the events of the encounter we can assume the party consists of four members a cleric, wizard, fighter and a thief. We will also have to agree that the members of the party were all 19th level (the recommended character level for this adventure). Agreed?


I’ve Got Reach wrote:


So when someone polymorphs into a Titan (remember that they are likely to be Level 20 characters) or wants to use the spell grease as a lubricant, it isn't necessarily the mark of a bad DM. Its possible that a DM knows up front that the PCs couldn't have accomplished these feats in the first place, but allowed it simply because it seemed like the right thing to do.

Good point, we will then assume the Wizard was 20th level. But I disagree with your summation of what is right for the PCs. If the DM knows that the PCs couldn't have accomplished the feats in the first place then it his responsibility to prepare the PC's along the course of adventure path for this encounter and other tougher ones , not to give them a free pass.

To do that then the PCs really didn't accomplish anything did they? The DM did not take into account the danger and prepare them accordingly (side adventures and such). My group would rather die then be given a unearned victory especially for such a pivotal encounter.


I’ve Got Reach wrote:


but allowed it simply because it seemed like the right thing to do.

An additional point, according the events of the encounter the party was prepared to continue the conflict, in fact the players were surprised that the DM did not bring back Dragotha from the Positive Energy Plane to continue the battle.

It seems to me the DM should have brought Dragotha back to continue the fight, the party was waiting for that to happen. The DM choose to play by the Dragotha numbers listed in the adventure.

What is Dragotha's CR 27. Wouldn't it be logical that creature that powerful would have access to a teleport or plane shift? I mean if he didn't how did escape from Timat?


JDillard wrote:

The first sentence in the spell is, "This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another."

Polymorph has a HD limit of 15 (much greater than a Titan) and doesn't allow changes to Outsiders (among other Types).

Also, if you fail the Reflex save in the Grease spell you fall to the ground, you don't slide. The Grease spell from a Ring of Spell Storing would be @ minimum caster level (e.g. Reflex DC: 11) which I'm sure Dragotha could've made anyway, at least 95% of the time.

JDillard illustrates that the PC's strategy was almost statistically impossible to begin with.


Lord Vile wrote:
Schmoe wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:

Is your DM inexperienced? I'm sorry, but I just get upset when a storyteller does such a poor job as yours did. It ruins the whole experience and the story for everyone involved.

Care to elaborate? That's pretty harsh criticism for something that's not obviously a problem. At least one other poster has commended the DM.

Sure, I would be glad to elaborate. What would you like to discuss first? The statistical improbabilities of this encounter or the negative impact the DM's performance had on the story overall?

To be honest I don't have access to the books or adventures till I get home for work i.e. I won't be able to compare and contrast spell effects like the radius of the Gate v. Dragothas dimensions for now (6pm EST).

So, I guess I'll start off by analyzing the information we do have of the incident. First, we will have to agree on the party composition unless we hear from Gameboydb. From reading the events of the encounter we can assume the party consists of four members a cleric, wizard, fighter and a thief. We will also have to agree that the members of the party were all 19th level (the recommended character level for this adventure). Agreed?

I'm waiting for you to make your point on what you feel the DM did wrong. I'm going in with an open mind, but there's no reason to be confrontational, and I'm not going to answer rhetorical questions.


I am kinda waiting to hear this too. I have had parties use some exceptional teamwork before and get away with stuff on wierd combinations. Granted, some of the rules were bent, but it wasn't intentional. As far as I can tell, the DM didn't let them win so much as thought they bested him and that was the end of it. Does seem rather anti-climatic, but I have seen many boss fights end in a single round due to poor initiative and mass damage fighters.

That doesn't make him inexperienced because he missed a few rule calls, probably would have soaked up so much game time to make sure all those actually worked the way the PCs thought anyways.


At first I thought Dragotha would wipe the floor with the group I'm running, but it turns out it might be the other way around.

With Brazzemal's greater ring of spell storing, an animal companion and a familiar (both of which get share spell), and a druid who can cast shapechange, Dragotha possibly faces 4 solars with ACs up near 60 and 36-38 character levels among them.

It's all core, too. I hate powergamers. Unless it's me.


Lord Vile wrote:
What is Dragotha's CR 27. Wouldn't it be logical that creature that powerful would have access to a teleport or plane shift? I mean if he didn't how did escape from Timat?

Heh... he *didn't*, remember?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

To quote Hanibal: "I love it when a plan comes together."

That was a wonderful/creative way to get rid of Dragotha. I wouldn't get too down over the fact that you couldn't polymorph into a titan. Take a look and see what the strongest creature is that polymorph does allow. Unless the bull rush number was close, you probably could have taken a hit on strength and still pulled off the maneuver.

Bottom line, is this a worse outcome than defeating Dragotha by having him roll a 1 against disintegrate? No. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get smart, and once in a while you get both. I salute your DM for not coming up with some cockneyed way to allow Dragotha to plane travel when no such ability is present in his stats (though, granted, given Dragotha's intelligence, I wouldn't blame your DM for saying that he had some way of getting out of that situation - a favor owed, a secret cache of scrolls, an agent with planar hopping abilities that Dragotha could summon). Congratulations on using teamwork and intelligence to defeat such a powerful foe.


Schmoe wrote:


I'm waiting for you to make your point on what you feel the DM did wrong. I'm going in with an open mind, but there's no reason to be confrontational, and I'm not going to answer rhetorical questions.

Now I'm confused? Whose being confrontational, I think is a great oppertunity for inexperienced players and DM's to learn from the mistakes of others? Please see my mutiple posts on where I feel the DM made his/her errors regarding this encounter.


Lord Vile wrote:
Schmoe wrote:


I'm waiting for you to make your point on what you feel the DM did wrong. I'm going in with an open mind, but there's no reason to be confrontational, and I'm not going to answer rhetorical questions.
Now I'm confused? Whose being confrontational, I think is a great oppertunity for inexperienced players and DM's to learn from the mistakes of others? Please see my mutiple posts on where I feel the DM made his/her errors regarding this encounter.

Schmoe, where you the DM?


Sorry for the multiple posts. Let's try this another way. What did the DM do right in this encounter? One, he allowed the players to beat Dragotha, nothing wrong with that. However he/she clearly did not understand or care about the spells and how they would or would not be effective against the creature or if they were even interpreted correctly in their functionality (illustrated by JDillard post). Second, by doing this he disappointed the group who expected a much more difficult thereby rewarding battle.

If your satisfied that this encounter was run well despite the multiple errors with spell interpretation and the disappointment of the player expressed in the original post so be it. I respectfully disagree.


Sebastian wrote:

To quote Hanibal: "I love it when a plan comes together."

I salute your DM for not coming up with some cockneyed way to allow Dragotha to plane travel when no such ability is present in his stats.

Dragotha is a Cockney?

I'll have to practice my accent for when my players get to this adventure.

Also, A-Team rules.

I think that as long as all those involved were satisfied with the resolution, then the DM did fine.

I'm not a rules lawyer. I'm a rules-chaot.


Lord Vile wrote:
Schmoe wrote:


I'm waiting for you to make your point on what you feel the DM did wrong. I'm going in with an open mind, but there's no reason to be confrontational, and I'm not going to answer rhetorical questions.
Now I'm confused? Whose being confrontational, I think is a great oppertunity for inexperienced players and DM's to learn from the mistakes of others? Please see my mutiple posts on where I feel the DM made his/her errors regarding this encounter.

Sorry if I misinterpreted something in your post that wasn't there. It's easy to do on a messageboard. :) Needless to say, I interpreted the "vigor" with which you attacked the argument to be a confrontational tone.

At any rate, I wasn't the DM, I don't know any of the people involved, and I have no knowledge of the situation beyond what's been posted here. I was only curious what you meant when you said:

Lord Vile wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just get upset when a storyteller does such a poor job as yours did. It ruins the whole experience and the story for everyone involved.

I think that's generally a subjective determination, highly dependent on who's involved. I'm sure you would agree that you made a pretty strong judgement.


Lord Vile wrote:
I’ve Got Reach wrote:


but allowed it simply because it seemed like the right thing to do.

An additional point, according the events of the encounter the party was prepared to continue the conflict, in fact the players were surprised that the DM did not bring back Dragotha from the Positive Energy Plane to continue the battle.

It seems to me the DM should have brought Dragotha back to continue the fight, the party was waiting for that to happen. The DM choose to play by the Dragotha numbers listed in the adventure.

What is Dragotha's CR 27. Wouldn't it be logical that creature that powerful would have access to a teleport or plane shift? I mean if he didn't how did escape from Timat?

Here is were I totally disagree with you. It's possible the DM was not on the up and up regarding the rules of what the players did but that does not make it alright for the DM to arbitrarly decide that Dargotha has a plane shift ability if he does not have such an ability when the encounter started.

It certianly is not some how a mark of a bad DM if he chooses not cheat under these circumstances and instead played it out using Dargotha's abilities as they are written.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Lord Vile wrote:

However he/she clearly did not understand or care about the spells and how they would or would not be effective against the creature or if they were even interpreted correctly in their functionality (illustrated by JDillard post). Second, by doing this he disappointed the group who expected a much more difficult thereby rewarding battle.

Must be nice not to make mistakes at the table in the heat of combat. Not trying to be confrontational, but I only make perfect rulings in my games too. Any DM that can't make the right ruling on every rule every time (and in particular, for the sake of the beloved story) shouldn't be behind the screen.


The way they killed Dragotha was imaginative and should be rewarded. It's not even close to a sign of a bad DM. Obviously, a player or two misread some rules, but there's a way they could have done it using the same plan and the RAW. I'd be happy with it.


Sebastian wrote:
Must be nice not to make mistakes at the table in the heat of combat. Not trying to be confrontational, but I only make perfect rulings in my games too. Any DM that can't make the right ruling on every rule every time (and in particular, for the sake of the beloved story) shouldn't be behind the screen.

Oh ick. Somebody pass me a tissue - I've got sarcasm dripping through my screen. ;-)


Sebastian wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:

However he/she clearly did not understand or care about the spells and how they would or would not be effective against the creature or if they were even interpreted correctly in their functionality (illustrated by JDillard post). Second, by doing this he disappointed the group who expected a much more difficult thereby rewarding battle.

Must be nice not to make mistakes at the table in the heat of combat. Not trying to be confrontational, but I only make perfect rulings in my games too. Any DM that can't make the right ruling on every rule every time (and in particular, for the sake of the beloved story) shouldn't be behind the screen.

Of course I make mistakes, dont be silly (not trying to be confrontational or anything) but if your not sure on a spell or it's effects why not take the time to check the rules?

I have a question regarding your praise for the DM for not coming up with some cockneyed way to allow Dragotha to plane travel when no such ability is present in his stats. But before that you imply that it was alright to fudge the functionality of polymorph other?

Which way do you fall Sebastian?

Like I said early, If you think the DM did fine but misinterperting all the spell effects and perhaps ruining the encounter that's fine be me.


superpriest wrote:
The way they killed Dragotha was imaginative and should be rewarded. It's not even close to a sign of a bad DM. Obviously, a player or two misread some rules, but there's a way they could have done it using the same plan and the RAW. I'd be happy with it.

A rule or two hehe.

peace out


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:
I’ve Got Reach wrote:


but allowed it simply because it seemed like the right thing to do.

An additional point, according the events of the encounter the party was prepared to continue the conflict, in fact the players were surprised that the DM did not bring back Dragotha from the Positive Energy Plane to continue the battle.

It seems to me the DM should have brought Dragotha back to continue the fight, the party was waiting for that to happen. The DM choose to play by the Dragotha numbers listed in the adventure.

What is Dragotha's CR 27. Wouldn't it be logical that creature that powerful would have access to a teleport or plane shift? I mean if he didn't how did escape from Timat?

Here is were I totally disagree with you. It's possible the DM was not on the up and up regarding the rules of what the players did but that does not make it alright for the DM to arbitrarly decide that Dargotha has a plane shift ability if he does not have such an ability when the encounter started.

It certianly is not some how a mark of a bad DM if he chooses not cheat under these circumstances and instead played it out using Dargotha's abilities as they are written.

True, but it certainly would have been more fun.

peace out!!!


Schmoe wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:
Schmoe wrote:


I'm waiting for you to make your point on what you feel the DM did wrong. I'm going in with an open mind, but there's no reason to be confrontational, and I'm not going to answer rhetorical questions.
Now I'm confused? Whose being confrontational, I think is a great oppertunity for inexperienced players and DM's to learn from the mistakes of others? Please see my mutiple posts on where I feel the DM made his/her errors regarding this encounter.

Sorry if I misinterpreted something in your post that wasn't there. It's easy to do on a messageboard. :) Needless to say, I interpreted the "vigor" with which you attacked the argument to be a confrontational tone.

At any rate, I wasn't the DM, I don't know any of the people involved, and I have no knowledge of the situation beyond what's been posted here. I was only curious what you meant when you said:

Lord Vile wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just get upset when a storyteller does such a poor job as yours did. It ruins the whole experience and the story for everyone involved.
I think that's generally a subjective determination, highly dependent on who's involved. I'm sure you would agree that you made a pretty strong judgement.

Sorry Schome,

Trying to respond to all the people who totally disagree with me hehe.

But yes your right it is a subjective determination and it was a stong judgement which I still stand by.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Lord Vile wrote:


I have a question regarding your praise for the DM for not coming up with some cockneyed way to allow Dragotha to plane travel when no such ability is present in his stats. But before that you imply that it was alright to fudge the functionality of polymorph other?

No. I stated that it was permissable to make a mistake during play. I then questioned whether the mistake effected the outcome. At no point did I or do I advocate fudging the spell to achieve the desired result.


Sebastian wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:


I have a question regarding your praise for the DM for not coming up with some cockneyed way to allow Dragotha to plane travel when no such ability is present in his stats. But before that you imply that it was alright to fudge the functionality of polymorph other?

No. I stated that it was permissable to make a mistake during play. I then questioned whether the mistake effected the outcome. At no point did I or do I advocate fudging the spell to achieve the desired result.

Thank you for making my point regarding taking the time to check the rules, it never hurts.

Peace out Sebastian and thanks for such a lively debate. I don't agree with you but it was fun.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Lord Vile wrote:

Thank you for making my point regarding taking the time to check the rules, it never hurts.

Peace out Sebastian and thanks for such a lively debate. I don't agree with you but it was fun.

I ignored your "point." I have a full time job. If I wasted time refuting even half the things you spill onto the forums I'd be unemployed.

See if you can figure out the difference between making your point and ignoring it. Hint: It's the difference between posting something coherent and just reiterating the same toothless claim ad naseum.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

gameboydb wrote:

*Aw, snap!*

I just checked the description in the PH. You're right, JDillard. Major fau paux on my part. I'm surprised our DM didn't catch that, as well. I can bring that to the attention of our DM, but I don't know if he will want to replay the whole session or not. Also, the idea of the Grease spell was to aid in the bull rush attempt, not to actually cause Dragotha to fall. Our DM likes it when we utilize teamwork. But like you said, we all had fun.

I poked around in the core rules and the elephant was the closest creature to the titan that I could find that is a valid creature for the polymorph spells. The Str goes from 43 to 30, which is a net change of 6 pts to the Bull Rush (effectively, you would have pushed him 5 feet less). Was Dragotha barely through the lip of the portal, or was he firmly on the other side?


Sebastian wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:

Thank you for making my point regarding taking the time to check the rules, it never hurts.

Peace out Sebastian and thanks for such a lively debate. I don't agree with you but it was fun.

I ignored your "point." I have a full time job. If I wasted time refuting even half the things you spill onto the forums I'd be unemployed.

See if you can figure out the difference between making your point and ignoring it. Hint: It's the difference between posting something coherent and just reiterating the same toothless claim ad naseum.

Sebastian, no need to make personal attacks just becuase I don't agree with you and congradulations on the full time job.

Peace out.


gameboydb wrote:

Immediately rolling for initiative (Dragotha rolled a "1"!) the cleric cast Gate, creating a portal behind and below the perched Dragotha leading to the Positive Material Plane......

yada yada....

The cleric ceased concentration on the gate, closing it, and then we waited.

Hmm... strange how nobody has pointed out that you can't cease concentration on a spell (or dismiss an active spell) until your turn, and thus, even if everything else was able to bend the rules, Dragotha could have simply flown back through the gate on his turn.

....But, you know, nobody's playing Devil's Advocate, or anything.


Don't worry Sebestian I'm on break so I have a few minutes to make a quick post.

I don't have the stats for the Gate spell or Dragotha available so if someone is free (I don't want them to waste any company time)could they check to see if it was physically possible to fit Dragotha thru the gateway?

Thanks, got to get back to work.


Lord Vile wrote:


I don't have the stats for the Gate spell or Dragotha available so if someone is free (I don't want them to waste any company time)could they check to see if it was physically possible to fit Dragotha thru the gateway?

Dragotha, as a Gargantuan creature, has a space of 20 ft.

The portal created by a Gate spell can be 5-20 feet in diameter. Casters choice. It would have been a squeeze, if he didn't open his wings. With them open, I don't think it would have been possible.

I would probably have allowed this had they used another spell like battering ram or some other method of getting Dragotha through the portal. I'm not a big fan of polymorph. The clever tactics however, totally deserve some sort of benefit. I most likely would have had him reappear in 1d4 rounds with 1/2 hit points and a severely pissed off attitude.


BladeSmith wrote:
Lord Vile wrote:


I don't have the stats for the Gate spell or Dragotha available so if someone is free (I don't want them to waste any company time)could they check to see if it was physically possible to fit Dragotha thru the gateway?

Dragotha, as a Gargantuan creature, has a space of 20 ft.

The portal created by a Gate spell can be 5-20 feet in diameter. Casters choice. It would have been a squeeze, if he didn't open his wings. With them open, I don't think it would have been possible.

I would probably have allowed this had they used another spell like battering ram or some other method of getting Dragotha through the portal. I'm not a big fan of polymorph. The clever tactics however, totally deserve some sort of benefit. I most likely would have had him reappear in 1d4 rounds with 1/2 hit points and a severely pissed off attitude.

Thank you Bladesmith, I'm inclined to agree on how you would have interpreted and handled the situation with the Gate.

Do you recall if the Withering Tabernacle had any type of forbiddence up that would have prevented the party from teleporting directly in or opening a gate in the first place?


Lord Vile wrote:


Do you recall if the Withering Tabernacle had any type of forbiddance up that would have prevented the party from teleporting directly in or opening a gate in the first place?

There is an Unhallowed effect, and some restrictions on ethereal interactions with the temple structure, but no restriction on planer travel into or within the temple. There is a ban on scrying effects too. Nothing would stop an outward gate however.

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UltimaGabe wrote:

The cleric ceased concentration on the gate, closing it, and then we waited.

Hmm... strange how nobody has pointed out that you can't cease concentration on a spell (or dismiss an active spell) until your turn, and thus, even if everything else was able to bend the rules, Dragotha could have simply flown back through the gate on his turn.

There's actually a funny way around this particular hurdle. Instead of casting grease, have the rogue attack the cleric. This will force the cleric to make a concentration check to maintain the Gate spell. The cleric should be able to voluntarily fail the check and thus lose concentration and cause the Gate to disappear.

I think there's ultimately a workable plan in the original post, it just needs some tweaking (and a whole lot of luck).


Sebastian wrote:
UltimaGabe wrote:

The cleric ceased concentration on the gate, closing it, and then we waited.

Hmm... strange how nobody has pointed out that you can't cease concentration on a spell (or dismiss an active spell) until your turn, and thus, even if everything else was able to bend the rules, Dragotha could have simply flown back through the gate on his turn.

There's actually a funny way around this particular hurdle. Instead of casting grease, have the rogue attack the cleric. This will force the cleric to make a concentration check to maintain the Gate spell. The cleric should be able to voluntarily fail the check and thus lose concentration and cause the Gate to disappear.

Sebastian--the rules are technically with you on this one, but it has a strong smell of metagaming to me.

Jozan: "OK Lidda, now attack me to disrupt my concentration on this Gate before that damn thing can come back through!"

*Jozan covers eyes so he won't involuntarily wince and get out of the way when Lidda stabs him, ensuring damage is high enough to make him fail his concentration check.

*Lidda takes out short sword and stabs Jozan in the kidney.

*Jozan fails Concentration check, then casts cure critical wounds to heal his damaged kidney on his next action.

I think I'd give the PCs partial credit on this one. Dragotha starts his turn on the Positive Energy plane and takes damage, then has to make a bull rush or overrun to push his way back through the gate against the fighter in elephant form. (Assuming the elephant could even push him through the gate to begin with, and assuming the elephant was smart enough to stop pushing when he got to the edge of the gate.)

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