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Dragotha--just a wyrm?


Age of Worms Adventure Path


Given his age & the fact that he was a former consort to Tiamat, should Dragotha be a great wyrm?

Sure, it makes him CR 29, but them's the breaks. Give the PCs a little more help if need be.


No. Tiamat likes 'em young.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I considered making Dragotha a Great Wyrm, but that not only increases his CR by 2, but it also makes him Colossal which would have unfortunately meant rebuilding the shape and size and layout of the Tabernacle of Worms significantly.

Anyway, Tiamat has lots and lots of consorts. They don't all have to be as powerful as they can be.


James Jacobs wrote:
Anyway, Tiamat has lots and lots of consorts. They don't all have to be as powerful as they can be.

Only the editor could call Tiamat loose and get away with it ;)


And remember, of course, that you don't age after you become undead. So it's quite possible that Dragotha was made into a Dracolich as a Wyrm, and then amassed his immense power and wealth. In my opinion, it makes him a bit cooler.


Russell Jones wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Anyway, Tiamat has lots and lots of consorts. They don't all have to be as powerful as they can be.
Only the editor could call Tiamat loose and get away with it ;)

She's a committed feminist and a liberated woman--no longer fettered by the ridiculous labels that mortal moralists place upon her behavior! ;)


I might add that I was delighted to see wyrm instead of great wyrm. I expected great wyrm. I was glad for the surprise. That also leaves room for the future, where bigger and badder dragons await. ;-)


I am pretty sure that there is only one more dragon left in the campaign. As to bigger and badder? That remains to be seen. Oh how I wait for the climax, uh, conclusion I mean.


Rob Bastard wrote:

Given his age & the fact that he was a former consort to Tiamat, should Dragotha be a great wyrm?

Sure, it makes him CR 29, but them's the breaks. Give the PCs a little more help if need be.

As you are the first to say anything about it, it goes without having to say, but some have forgotten that the only reason one becomes a lich is because they feel as though they have already learned all that they can in this lifetime, and unless Dragotha is one of the 'rare' magic users that learned everything in a short period of time, it is more likely that he was a great wyorm before he chose to go lich. Also, it would be very foolish to go lich at an early age, as then most of the time you could have spent learning and gaining power and influence would be waised. But, all in all I remember the orignial Dragotha, and the stats that Pazio gives for him in this 3.5 world is simply brining him up to an even keel from where he was. But if you wanted, one could explan it as he gained more power and knowledge in the centuries that have passed. Because as we all know, the Vampiric silver dragon has given him a reason to become more powerful.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Keep in mind as well that Dragotha didn't decide to become a lich. He hooked up with Kyuss, who promised him eternal life, and that made Dragotha brave enough to start going against Tiamat, who then killed him. Kyuss then transformed him into an undead dragon (Dragotha thus did not become a dracolich via the standard method of drinking the crazy dracolich potion.) Dragotha was still a wyrm at this point, which is why he's a wyrm now.

That said, feel free to make him a great wyrm. But keep in mind that also makes him Colossal, which causes as many problems as does increasing his CR by +2.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

When I first looked at the stats for Dragotha, I was amazed- AC 58, over 850 hp! WOW! After I saw that someone said that the PCs get help from somewhere (not saying what to avoid spoilers), I looked at the help, which makes a HUGE difference.
It occurs to me though that giving a +4 brilliant energy undead-bane falchion (and using Power Attack in conjunction with one of the bits of help) would also make the battle go quicker.
I hope I'm not hijacking the thread now, but I wonder how long the battle has lasted for those who've played through it?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Brilliant energy weapons can't hurt undead; they only hurt living flesh. And even if it could, it doesn't bypass natural armor; only regular armor and shields. It's one of the lamest weapon qualities, in my opinion.

An undead-bane weapon would do pretty good against Dragotha, though.

As would the spell find the gap.


James Jacobs wrote:
Brilliant energy weapons can't hurt undead; they only hurt living flesh. And even if it could, it doesn't bypass natural armor; only regular armor and shields. It's one of the lamest weapon qualities, in my opinion.

I so totally agree. It also does jack against constructs, and anything that is completely useless against a golem is, IMO, not worth the gold.

The monk in our party had some special handwraps made specifically to bypass enemies damage reduction... a silvered +1 Undead Bane wrap, a byesh +1 Aberration bane wrap, a cold iron and good-aligned +1 wrap, etc. It makes his hands so much more deadly when they take on wormspawn.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Brilliant energy weapons can't hurt undead; they only hurt living flesh. And even if it could, it doesn't bypass natural armor; only regular armor and shields. It's one of the lamest weapon qualities, in my opinion.

An undead-bane weapon would do pretty good against Dragotha, though.

As would the spell find the gap.

Doh! I'd forgotten that. Make it a +5 holy undead-bane two-handed weapon with Power Attack, then. I just noticed that it's NE rather than CE, so Axiomatic wouldn't help. (I hope I'm not giving too much away!)

The holy and undead-bane qualities are sovereign in AP2, regardless.


When Sexi Golem came over to my house and reviewed the stats for Dragotha, he just couldn't stop saying, "They shouldn't win... They shouldn't win." I love looking at a foe sometimes and thinking that.

But then I read the whole adventure and saw the helpt hey get from Balakarde, and I have to say I'm a little miffed! It just seems like Deus ex Machina to me. Either make Draotha weaker to begin with, or give the party a non-combat option here. I now you can't, what's done is done, but I remember from the AoW Overload a mention of an option to negotiate a treaty with the dragon, rather than fight him. I'm guessing you just ran out of room and time. I, however, plan on nerfing Balakarde's help somewhat and adding in the "treaty" option. The party can also get a major leg-up if they grab some of the awesome treasure in his horde, which I think would be cool to see them racing around trying to do.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

You can still negotiate a treaty with Dragotha, and doing so would definately help in places in "Dawn of a New Age." But the vast majority of players are going to want to kill him by the time they reach him, which is why the adventure skews toward this solution.

I wouldn't call it a Deus ex Machina at all, since gathering Balakarde's aid is the point of the adventure, really. If the PCs just showed up to fight Dragotha and Balakarde showed up out of the blue to help without them first having to rescue him (3 times), THAT would be a deus ex machina.

And even with Balakarde's aid, Dragotha won't be a pushover.

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