Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

Zyrxog--overpowered?


Age of Worms Adventure Path


I've been re-reading "Hall of Harsh Reflections," as I'll be running it in about a month or so, & I noticed something about Zyrxog that may have been addressed on these boards before, namely, his CR seems wrong.

Spoilers. . .

.
.
.
.
.
.

In HoHR, Zyrxog is listed as being CR 11, but he's a 7th level mind flayer sorcerer. Now, the MM lists a 9th level mind flayer sorcerer with a CR of 17, so shouldn't Zyrxog's CR be 15 instaed of 11?

Has anyone run Zyrxog as written? I can't imagine a 7-8th level party being able to take him & 2 octopins without suffering anear TPK, especially if he's ready for them. Hell, his mind blast has a DC of 23, which can easily put half a party out of commission for 3-12 rounds. Am I missing something?


Well for starters according to page 294 of the Monster Manual the advanced example has the wrong CR. Since 'flayers don't have sorcerer like spell ability to begin with sorcerer levels are non-associated and therefore worth half as much CR up to the monster's racial Hit Dice (8HD in the case of a mind fayer). That means 7 levels of sorcerer add 3.5 to his racial CR of 8 which comes out to 11 or 12. They rounded down because they are mean. ;)

The mind flayer sorcerer in Monster Manual the should be CR 13 byt the rules (8 nonassociated levels of sorcerer (CR 4) + 1 associated level because its over the HD cap (CR 1) + base monster's base CR 8 = 13).

Hope that helps,
GGG


Great Green God wrote:

Well for starters according to page 294 of the Monster Manual the advanced example has the wrong CR. Since 'flayers don't have sorcerer like spell ability to begin with sorcerer levels are non-associated and therefore worth half as much CR up to the monster's racial Hit Dice (8HD in the case of a mind fayer). That means 7 levels of sorcerer add 3.5 to his racial CR of 8 which comes out to 11 or 12. They rounded down because they are mean. ;)

The mind flayer sorcerer in Monster Manual the should be CR 13 byt the rules (8 nonassociated levels of sorcerer (CR 4) + 1 associated level because its over the HD cap (CR 1) + base monster's base CR 8 = 13).

Hope that helps,
GGG

Okay, then it looks like the DC for his mind blast is too high. If it's treated as a 4th level spell+ his Charisma of 22, then the DC should be 20, not 23. That gives those with lower will saves a fighting chance,, at least-- the biggest problem is being useless for up to 12 rounds. Speaking of which--are there any spells which negate the "stunned" condition? The only one I know of offhand is Heal.


Spell Immunity (Clr 4) can render you immune to Mind Blast.


Rob Bastard wrote:
Okay, then it looks like the DC for his mind blast is too high. If it's treated as a 4th level spell+ his Charisma of 22, then the DC should be 20, not 23. That gives those with lower will saves a fighting chance,, at least-- the biggest problem is being useless for up to 12 rounds. Speaking of which--are there any spells which negate the "stunned" condition? The only one I know of offhand is Heal.

Actually its treated as a 4th level for dispel and such. The DC was probably figured like this: 10 + Chr Modifer + half the monster's racial HD = 10 + 6 + 4. It still equals 20, but an important distinction for future monsters you might work on (Monster Manual 315). You might want to check him to see if he has any feat that might augment his blast as well.

GGG

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Great Green God wrote:
Rob Bastard wrote:
Okay, then it looks like the DC for his mind blast is too high. If it's treated as a 4th level spell+ his Charisma of 22, then the DC should be 20, not 23. That gives those with lower will saves a fighting chance,, at least-- the biggest problem is being useless for up to 12 rounds. Speaking of which--are there any spells which negate the "stunned" condition? The only one I know of offhand is Heal.

Actually its treated as a 4th level for dispel and such. The DC was probably figured like this: 10 + Chr Modifer + half the monster's racial HD = 10 + 6 + 4. It still equals 20, but an important distinction for future monsters you might work on (Monster Manual 315). You might want to check him to see if he has any feat that might augment his blast as well.

GGG

Nope. Mind blast is a spell-like ability, not a supernatural one. So the DC is 10 + Chr Mod + spell level. Which still comes out to 20. I remember seeing elsewhere on these boards that the DC 23 was in error. Even if he had Ability Focus (mind blast), the DC would still only be 22.


My bad.

GGG


Re: stunned condition: I found something in the SRD that says, ". . . any other character can take a standard action to help the stunned character recover; doing so ends the stunned condition."

Does anyone know if this would this apply to stunning in general, or just under the optional rules for wound damage?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Rob Bastard wrote:

Re: stunned condition: I found something in the SRD that says, ". . . any other character can take a standard action to help the stunned character recover; doing so ends the stunned condition."

Does anyone know if this would this apply to stunning in general, or just under the optional rules for wound damage?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm

I'd assume just the VP/WP variant - that certainly isn't in the PHB or DMG.


Rob Bastard wrote:
Has anyone run Zyrxog as written? I can't imagine a 7-8th level party being able to take him & 2 octopins without suffering anear TPK, especially if he's ready for them. Hell, his mind blast has a DC of 23, which can easily put half a party out of commission for 3-12 rounds. Am I missing something?

The party gets a preview and then has time to prepare, so they should be ready for him. He's still a pretty bad dude, though.


I'm running two campaigns of AoW, and we just finished HoHR. One party said, "To heck with this, the dang mind flayer can live!" and left him alone... the other won wiped out all of his minions, and then had to retreat before they faced him. Being the smart illithid he is, he grabbed his junk and fled, but not before he charmed and suggestioned several commoners and low level experts into poisoning the local wells... hhehehehee!

Both of my groups heard about his CR, and they're quoting the dang MM to me to show how tough he's supposed to be... So, everyone out there who run this encounter, how tough is he, really?

Squid

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Heavy Sigh.

There are errors in the Monster Manual. The mind flayer sorcerer's CR is one of them, as is the fact that there are several animals who have Weapon Finesse as their feat even though they don't qualify for the feat (they need +1 BAB).

From everything I've seen and heard, Zyrxog is right about where he needs to be for a powerful end-of-the-adventure boss. He's got some very strong defenses and offenses, but if your party plans for the battle and uses tactics well, it's by no means a no-win encounter.

When you get right down to it, adding sorcerer levels to a monster (ANY monster) who doesn't already cast spells as a sorcerer simply isn't as tough as people seem to think it is.


PurdueDave wrote:
Rob Bastard wrote:
Has anyone run Zyrxog as written? I can't imagine a 7-8th level party being able to take him & 2 octopins without suffering anear TPK, especially if he's ready for them. Hell, his mind blast has a DC of 23, which can easily put half a party out of commission for 3-12 rounds. Am I missing something?
The party gets a preview and then has time to prepare, so they should be ready for him. He's still a pretty bad dude, though.

PurdueDave has it right. I ran the encounters with Zyrxog as written, and honestly, he nearly took out the group in the first encounter. From that point on, the part knows that they're going to face a mind flayer, and they have ample opportunity to prepare. My group did indeed use spell immunity to protect from the mind blast, and that helped immensely, as did liberal use of a wand of dispel magic.


Came close to TPK with Zyrxog - twice! My players loved it, though, even though only one guy got to actually fight the mind flayer.


James Jacobs wrote:

Heavy Sigh.

There are errors in the Monster Manual. The mind flayer sorcerer's CR is one of them, as is the fact that there are several animals who have Weapon Finesse as their feat even though they don't qualify for the feat (they need +1 BAB).

From everything I've seen and heard, Zyrxog is right about where he needs to be for a powerful end-of-the-adventure boss. He's got some very strong defenses and offenses, but if your party plans for the battle and uses tactics well, it's by no means a no-win encounter.

When you get right down to it, adding sorcerer levels to a monster (ANY monster) who doesn't already cast spells as a sorcerer simply isn't as tough as people seem to think it is.

Tell me about it. My 1st group pratically won't accept the ruling of anyone, including me! It's getting so frustrating that I'm at the point of telling them either they're going to accept what I say, and not argue about it in the game, or I'm going to stop running.

I mean, it's like.... Skip Williams, who's he? Only one of the guys who wrote the game, and is the final source on rules. (I'm thinking about finding his home phone number, because I'm sick of hearing the word WHY?) And they won't accept his rulings! I'm at my wits end with them.

Squid


Squid wrote:
Tell me about it. My 1st group pratically won't accept the ruling of anyone, including me!

House Rule #1 - The final decision of the DM is ALWAYS right.


We've had our first PC death with the Vrock, so if the fight with Zyrxog should turn out to be a TPK, at least the one whose character died won't be so angry anymore... *lol*


I agree with the CR, Zyroxog would never ever use a spell in combat above and beyond Mind Blast unless he saw that the party was immune to it, its just too powerfull and leaves them defenseless against his brain eating which he would certainly want to do.

So what is the save DC for the mind blast? 20 or 23????

Is the MindBlast a mind affecting spell and hence blocked by Protection From Evil?

You guys are right though, the party must go to the library and find out information about him, what is the DC 10+his CR?

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

YuKyDave wrote:

So what is the save DC for the mind blast? 20 or 23????

Is the MindBlast a mind affecting spell and hence blocked by Protection From Evil?

You guys are right though, the party must go to the library and find out information about him, what is the DC 10+his CR?

The save DC is, as stated above, 20 (10+ 4th level spell equivalent+ Cha mod of 6).

Mind blast is not a spell that allows the user mental control over the victim's actions (unlike, say, charm, suggestion or dominate) and is thus not negated by protectiong from evil.

The DC to recall one useful tidbit about a monster is 10+CR of the base creature. Every 5 over that number gets you another useful fact.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Older Products / Dungeon Magazine / Age of Worms Adventure Path / Zyrxog--overpowered? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Age of Worms Adventure Path

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.