I'm still rather new to the whole D and D experience, but was wondering if any of you had some suggestions for a player such as myself. I remember my DM talking earlier about how he hated it when players would look up monsters in the book as they were fighting, checking their hp or correcting the DM as they went. In my first game or two, I wouldn't have understood that as a bad thing (though I get how that would be endlessly annoying now). Anyway, could you offer up some common sense so I don't cross any lines?
I'm still rather new to the whole D and D experience, but was wondering if any of you had some suggestions for a player such as myself. I remember my DM talking earlier about how he hated it when players would look up monsters in the book as they were fighting, checking their hp or correcting the DM as they went. In my first game or two, I wouldn't have understood that as a bad thing (though I get how that would be endlessly annoying now). Anyway, could you offer up some common sense so I don't cross any lines?
Well I believe he wouldnt want you to check the MM because thats metagame thinking. Your characters wouldnt know anything about the monster and probably wouldnt even know its name.
One important note for a new player: not every enemy has to be killed. Diplomacy is an option at times.
If your character has a low intelligence dont have him think up elaborate plans or similar things.
Have fun and play.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you want to learn info about monsters, take a knowledge skill. Each one is keyed to a different type of monster (i.e. knowledge religion is used to obtain info about undead). To learn info about a monster, you make a knowledge check DC 10+the monster's HD. If you make the check you get one piece of information, and for every 5 points above that, you get an additional piece of information.
Sebastian
I'm not sure what type of game you're in. If you're in a hack n' slash, low story game, the DM might be okay with you looking up monsters in battle, but even in that type of play, it's generally frowned upon. It's like looking ahead to the end of a book, or worse, if the DM was using a published adventure, reading it before playing it. You ruin the surprise and a lot of the fun.
Personally, I prefer a more story-centric campaign as opposed to hack n' slash, and if that's the game you're playing in, then don't look at things like that. Don't look at the monsters and characters and NPCs as a bundle of numbers and feat and spell names. Look at their personalities and histories. Don't look at the ogre and see "CR 3 large giant"; see an eight foot tall lumbering creature with a 40 lbs. club attacking you. Then the MM doesn't matter so much. I try to look at the game that way and like it, but if it doesn't work for you, don't sweat it. But, don't look through the MM in play, either.
Oh, I'd have fun with a player like you. Look through the monster manual and correct the DM???? Excuse me??? You have no frigging clue that I'm even using creatures from ANY monster manual.
Best advice? Enjoy the magical wonder that is generated by the journey of your imagination through the wonderful fantasy world and tale your DM is spinning for you. Forget about hit points, armor classes, challenge ratings...all that stuff is just b+!#@%$&...enjoy the game for what it is, not for some courtroom exercise in trying to get a one-up on the DM by leafing through the Monster Manual during play.
One do not allow players to look through as you actually fight the thing, two tell your DM to mix it up and augment or change the monsters as they are.
I do this a lot because most of my players have lots of knowledge about the monsters. (many have DMed themeselves and the others has seen their stats from campaigns where I allowed monster races for play). Sometimes it comes back to bite them, literally. For example the PC's were trapped in a room filled with water and a Sea cat bursts into the room and attacks. One of the players said that the cat was only a CR 4 and they should worry about getting out before they drown and ignore the Cat. What they did not know is the cat was advanced by three or four hit dice with giant stat boosts to str and con. So as the party slips through a hole in the floor one by one the cat nearly kills the cleric as they escape. (actually had the cleric been anything other than a radiant servant, or had used some of his healing spells for the day he would have been toast)
I'm still rather new to the whole D and D experience, but was wondering if any of you had some suggestions for a player such as myself. I remember my DM talking earlier about how he hated it when players would look up monsters in the book as they were fighting, checking their hp or correcting the DM as they went. In my first game or two, I wouldn't have understood that as a bad thing (though I get how that would be endlessly annoying now). Anyway, could you offer up some common sense so I don't cross any lines?
Besides the fact that the DM can and (speaking for myself) DOES often change everything in the MM (I kinda have to because my group have all been playing over 10 years and are all DMs too in their campaigns, so they know most mobs inside out), so "knowing" what the monsters hit dice and ac are for example does nothings as they will almost never be the same when they are actually facing a mob. I must confess that i mostly use the MM for ideas/templates and to show PCs the pictures (often using a completely different one for my modified monster that i think fits...its the only way to keep encounters "fresh"). So i personally don't mind who looks up what during the game with the only real rule being don't slow the game down so much you ruin it for others. But like i said that is a personal choice and i understand how some DMs get irked (especially since most players that haven't DMed don't really understand how much work it CAN entail). My best advise is check with the DM and go by what they are comfortable with.
Now as for general etiquette "arguing and/or correcting" the DM are definite no nos for a few reasons:As said above you CAN'T argue with them because its THEIR game (meaning they could change ANYTHING and EVERYTHING about the game...even the so called core rule books are just suggestions as far as i'm concerned...again i KNOW i'll draw flak for this and some will disagree vehemontly...but its just my humble opinion).
Its also very disruptive DURING a game...discussions can always be held outside of games to clearify any points about rules (again must be handled maturely and not turn into a shouting match and a my way or the highway discussion). This is where the DM too needs to be leanient and open minded and open to players convincing him of why they have issue with certain rullings (otherwise if you're TOO firm, you'll soon find no one wants to play in YOUR campaign lol).
Lastly, ALWAYS remember the whole objective of roleplaying is to HAVE FUN! don't take it too personally...don't hog the spotlight (be considerate of others who are there to have fun too) and don't disrupt the game (and others enjoyment of it) for the sake of pettiness or being argumentative. I KNOW how attached players can get to certain PCS (i have been guilty of this myself on MANY occasions), but throwing a tantrum whenever somethig "bad" happens or the DM makes ruling you don't like is just plain childish and anti social and WILL result in the disruption of the game and hampering other peoples enjoyment (and in my groups at least will often result in you not getting invited back to play).
So that's just my two coppers worth...keep in mind that there are no hard and fast rules...its a social setting and depends on the people involved...just remeber the cardinal rule...welcome to the fold...and as the KODT comic says:
"May all your hits be crits".
R. Raider you may indeed catch some flak, but not from me,
Whole hearted agreement
Ragnarok Raider's totally on the money...high wisdom among those "aged" gamers!!
Wow I was cringing (and preparing to duck) in anticipation of "flak" and other not so nice things being hurled my way...but instead all i've gotten is support...thanks guys =)
Thanks for the awesome advice everyone! Ragnarock Raider you really had some good points. I appreciate the words of wisdom much, and hopefully other people in the campaign will too. ;) That's the kind of stuff you need to have been on both sides of the DM screen to learn.
By the way, I myself haven't looked in any books to check on something we're fighting, I just used it as an example of something our DM had said about his other campaigns. Just thought I'd clear that up ;)
I am not sure if you will call this flak. You should as a DM stay within the ability scores for races in the back of the MM. This is a physics perspective. Also if you increase the HD enough you should have the creature be larger. Players should know if it is big, it is going to be tough. Aside from that I say go wild. Add character levels, increase HD and keep the players guessing.
As for your play, you are getting off a great start, you are questioning and not satisfied with your play. By doing that you should continue to become a better player and I would not be suprised to see you DM in the future.
1) Remember your DM has to spend a much greater time preparing for DnD than the players do, respect that. Players should not know about monsters except by the knowledge skills and you should not be looking in the DMG during play either.
2) If any rules conditions come up write down your complaint and discuss the issue with the DM at least a day before the next game session. The other players may not have any idea what the dispute is about and become frustrated. You only have a limited amount of time and don't want to waste it. I have had a DM tell me he did not like the spell I used (entangle) he just did not feel comfortable with it. I talked to him later and he let me have a choice of a few world specific spells. We both were happy.
3) Try to set up any house rules ahead of time. Monte Cook listed a ton of these in an issue of Dungeon. If a dice hits the floor or is crooked, is it to be rerolled? Some DMs don't like to use certain books or classes, I have heard the Expanded Psionics Book is one of them. If so then the book is off limits. The best way to know what to do is discuss it with him before hand.
4) Vary your tactics, you should because different opponents require different way to be overcome. If you have one tactic your DM will send something against you to counter it.
Now for a bit of fun! In one of our adventures we came across a mountain stronghold of kobolds. We were spotted approaching and their king appeared on a ledge of a cave opening about 60 feet above us. He looked comical wearing a crown and flowing robe.(He looked like James Brown.) The crown and robe were removed by his attendants. Then he informed us (in a harsh tone) that this was his mountain and we were trespassing. As we turned to leave, he said,"You had better obey me, pathetic humans." and laughed. I took this to be posturing for his minions. Our leader snapped, he yell"Attack!" (at 3rd level and about 5 of us we could take down some kobolds) We fired missile fire at the king but his ledge and protections made our attacks relatively ineffective. Then 10 kobolds came running out a gate. Combat ensured and they hit us with sleep spells and color sprays. I was the only on up when I had my initiative and that was because of being a 1/2 elf. The 3rd or 4th color spray did me in and I was stunned, surrounded and saw two ogres coming towards us. We were captured.
Some years ago while playing 2nd edition or DM had us play ourselves ala the DnD cartoon, crossing a portal to DnD. When we came across a creature the one player asked me what I knew about of opponent. I said I had not seen the creature before. He queried the DM if our characters knew what we knew. The DM said yes. I rattled of HD, AC, damage and vulnerabilities perfectly. The DM was stunned. The problem was I have been the first DM, still ran a campaign and had a really good memory. Turn the page a few years and we are now playing Dark Sun with the DM. We are facing belgoi, a creature that drains constitution with each hit. Everyone is losing constitution, even the half-giant who to this point had seemed unstoppable was being slashed from all sides. We killed a number of them and the others ran off. Later we heard the eerie bell to signal their return. We did not know if they were undead or what. We did not know what would happen if someone reached 0 con, would they become one? We did know when we heard that bell there was cause for fear. My point here is that I remember the name of the belgoi, I don't remember the name of the creature I rattled off. To this day I ask our DM for a return to Dark Sun and another shot at the belgoi and other creatures I know nothing about. In fact my other character would like another shot at that kobold.
By the way, I myself haven't looked in any books to check on something we're fighting, I just used it as an example of something our DM had said about his other campaigns. Just thought I'd clear that up ;)
Sorry I pounced on you like I did. I'd love to have you in our gaming group any day. Keep coming here for advice, even if it's a little crotchety at times!
I'm in total agreement as well with what's been said.
Although I can't FORCE one of my players not to buy a monster manual (hey, who knows, maybe that player wants to DM someday...), I generally ask that the players only use the Players Handbook (or other class/race oriented sourcebook) while in a gaming session.
See, I have players that have been playing for over ten years. Believe me, they all know of the basilisk's petrifying gaze attack. And, as it happened before, they were playing in a new campaign of mine and encountered one. The fighter PC asked me if his character knew about this dreadful attack. I asked every player to roll a Knowledge (nature) check DC12. Well only the ranger succeeded. So I stated that the ranger screamed out "Beware of it's gaze! Stare away!!" at the beginning of the fight. So the players fought the basilisk with their eyes closed, gladly taking the -4 penalty to hit (and the 50% miss chance).
Like it was mentioned above, don't mix player knowledge and character knowledge.
Ultradan
As a DM myself, I like to suprise the characters with monsters they have not encountered yet. For them to try looking it up in the MM would not only upset me as the DM trying to work hard to have an enjoyable game, but as players, it takes the fun away from the adventure. Thats like saying, everytime a character encounters a monster they have not yet meet, the stats appear above their head. Thats just plane makes no sense!!