AP 1 & 2 Lessons Learned for AP 3


Dungeon Magazine General Discussion

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Paizo Employee Creative Director

Playtesting of Adventure Path adventures (and all other adventures, for that matter) is something that's more or less the author's responsibility. The manpower required to organize, maintain, and police an out-of-house playtesting program simply isn't something we can afford. Nor would adding such a time-consuming step to the process help the already hectic schedules we work under.

Fortunately, there's simply not as great a need for playtesting of adventures for 3rd edition than there was in 1st and 2nd edition, since the rules in 3rd edition are more standardized and more inclusive. In fact, it's pretty much become industry standard that playtesting has been replaced by developing. It's more efficient, costs less money, and is more reliable than using a vast pool of playtesters.


Yuck, I don't like the idea of an "Eberron-lite" set of conversion notes. I think I'll pass on the next AP (and probably cancel my Dungeon subscription) if this turns out to be true.

Would it be easier to just post the conversion notes as web articles, rather than just bundling them together as PDFs? You could do both, once to get the notes available ASAP and once to get the maps and everything out for the general Dungeon DM.

If there's a promise of conversion notes in the magazine along with a series of expanded conversions online, I would very much look forward to the AP. I would even pay an extra $30 a year for a "premium" subscription that included web bonus features for all adventures and articles, not just the AP. (I also want to pay extra for overnight shipping instead of bulk, but that's the topic for another thread.)

Please don't publish a conversion-lite. I really like the details put into the current conversions; in fact I think they are a little "light" as it is! I also prefer to swap monsters when it's appropriate (dolgaunts for drow, for example). I don't need full stat blocks to do this though; just tell me what races/classes would work better, as Keith has done for the past two conversions.

I'd like to see the main plot overview around the same time the first adventure is published, rather than two or three months down the line. I'd also like to see a complete conversion of the overview for FR and Eberron at the same time.

My players like to play as warforged, shifters, kalashtar and artificers, and they like to use all the crunchy stuff from Eberron like action points and psionics. For every adventure I would like to see several pages from Keith Baker, James Wyatt, David Noonan or Rich Burlew. These supplements should focus on incorporating Eberron into the AP, including the setting's history, politics, economy, geography and cosmology.

In general, I would rather see notes that modify the AP to fit into Eberron rather than see changes to Eberron to fit the AP. Also, if the notes are nothing more than changing a few names then I probably won't be interested.

Again (I can't emphasize this enough) please do not do a "conversion-lite" just to squeeze it into the magazine.

Dark Archive

Things I would love to see in AP 3 ...

1) Interesting locales. The spire of Kyuss, Cauldron, and the like are great additions to any campaign!

2) More combat maps, like the Blackwall Keep map! If they're open-ended, it makes them re-useable later! How about a map of a swamp encounter?

3) Some dungeon-crawls are good.

4) An epic feel to the campaign is a must -- since the characters should reach 20th level at the end, they should accomplish something significant to the campaign world, and end up as 'movers-and-shakers'

5) If you can, put some rationale in the first adventure for the party to get together? AP1 had a bit of this with the assault on Rufen, and AP2 had a bit of this with everyone starting in Diamond Lake, but a paragraph or two on "assembling the party" might be a good idea.

6) More hand-outs and props! The tablets and letters in SCAP were great play-aids to get the players involved!

I'm looking forward to what's coming down the pike. You guys have put a lot of thought and effort into this, and it's great! The sense of a 'shared adventure' here on the boards and with other gamers in our community over Age of Worms or Shackled City really brings back the 1st ed. feel of sharing stories of Tomb of Horrors or Saltmarsh!


Takasi wrote:
...I don't like the idea of an "Eberron-lite" set of conversion notes...

I agree on this -- strongly.

While I don't use the conversion notes (I'm a diehard Greyhawker), their quality makes them a significant enhancement for their target audiences.

I think the time/effort would pay off for Dungeon.

Jack


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd like to see an additional section in each adventure, up front with the Synopsis - a sort of "Adventure Path Checklist." This would be the things you should make sure to introduce/accomplish if you're playing the entire adventure path, and should be a brief bullet-point list that includes a note on why each point is important. For example, the Encounter at Blackwall Keep might have the following bullet-points:

- Build PCs positive relationship with Allustan (so they'll be affected properly when he gets in trouble later in the Path)
- Defeat the beseigers (lets PCs see how far they've progressed since 1st level)
- Introduce Slow Worms, and learn more about the green worms of Kyuss (builds on the sense of Bad Things Coming)
- Learn hints about the black dragon Illthane (sets up her return later)

This checklist would help those of us who are adapting to a different world (Eberron, in my case) to be sure we don't change something important, and it would also help clarify some of what the author intended to accomplish that we might not have recognized clearly or in places where we didn't catch the importance.

ALSO, I'd like to see more detailed conversion notes, rather than rules-lite versions, although this is a preference rather than a necessity as I expect that the online community here will be my main source for conversion ideas.

One other thing that I think would be handy... I like the idea of all the adventures published within the adventure path being related to the path itself, but sometimes I need an extra adventure in between things (it gives the sense that other stuff is happening in the world, and it lets my over-large group of PCs get some extra XPs and wealth). I'd love to see a paragraph at the start of each adventure (other than the 1st one) that says something like, "If you're playing the Adventure Path and need an additional adventure before this one in order to get your PCs to the appropriate level, you might want to consider one of the following:" and then list two or three adventures previously published in Dungeon magazine. At least one should be from an issue that is within the last year, and/or that is still available as a back-order.


Cintra Bristol wrote:

I'd like to see an additional section in each adventure, up front with the Synopsis - a sort of "Adventure Path Checklist." This would be the things you should make sure to introduce/accomplish if you're playing the entire adventure path, and should be a brief bullet-point list that includes a note on why each point is important. For example, the Encounter at Blackwall Keep might have the following bullet-points:

- Build PCs positive relationship with Allustan (so they'll be affected properly when he gets in trouble later in the Path)
- Defeat the beseigers (lets PCs see how far they've progressed since 1st level)
- Introduce Slow Worms, and learn more about the green worms of Kyuss (builds on the sense of Bad Things Coming)
- Learn hints about the black dragon Illthane (sets up her return later)

This checklist would help those of us who are adapting to a different world (Eberron, in my case) to be sure we don't change something important, and it would also help clarify some of what the author intended to accomplish that we might not have recognized clearly or in places where we didn't catch the importance.

I really like this idea. It helps DM's with understanding the bigger picture and helps with planning for future relationships and encounters. Consider this motion seconded.


Cintra Bristol wrote:
Also, I'd like to see more detailed conversion notes, rather than rules-lite versions, although this is a preference rather than a necessity as I expect that the online community here will be my main source for conversion ideas.

As a part of the online community, I disagree and would prefer to see a professional conversion. Amateur work is great, but usually its unreliable, inconsistent and (occasionally) poor quality. I wouldn't rest my expectations on the online community.


one thing i've yet to see voiced in terms of complaints is about the villians. specifically, in AoW, there are basically two recurring villians - the Ebon Triad cult (which only seems to show up sporadically, and works through outside influences), and Lashonna.

In AP3, i'd personally enjoy seeing a lower level recurring villian (one who crosses several adventures - say 2-4?) for my players to focus on. having a defineable bad guy can really help drive the story forward and is a great hook for the players. in AoW, i've been changing things so that the Alhaster part of the metaplot is brought into play much earlier, and i'm trying to make sure that the faceless one will survive a bit longer, so the players have real satisfaction when they finally hunt him down and kill him.


What about Smenk?


he's barely involved in whispiring cairn, and should be finished off by the time 3foe wraps up. also, smenk is a bad guy, yes, but unless you change his motivations and actions around, he's not really a nemesis to the party - he's more an inconveniance and annoyance than a worthy foe.

it's certainly possible to change the beginning adventures to focus on him, but for me as a DM, he's just not an interesting bad guy. he's too... mundane. getting a corrupt mine manager arrested and tried just doesn't fit the bill when it comes to becoming a hero, to me. defeating an evil wizard bent on raising an evil outsider who wants to rip the village apart? great! just give me some more time to build him up into a real villian.

Liberty's Edge

windnight wrote:
...In AP3, i'd personally enjoy seeing a lower level recurring villian (one who crosses several adventures - say 2-4?) for my players to focus on. having a defineable bad guy can really help drive the story forward and is a great hook for the players. ...

Absolutely!

I realized this, after playing throught the official Eberron trilogy. Garreth (spelling?) was like a red rag to them! They enjoyed having someone to focus on, who appeared whenever it was "inconveniend" for them!
Havinf one villain through 2 to 4 AP-adventures would be great! It even would help those, who play those parts as stand-alone adventures, to play one or two in a row, without much work!
While having a good guy over a couple of adventures (like Alustan) a bad guys helps to built this versimili-what-ever! ;)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

There's some great ideas and comments on this thread; keep them coming!

Adventure Path 3 hasn't been approved by WotC yet, but there are certainly some things that I can guarentee we'll be doing in it, no matter what the actual storyline of the campaign ends up being:

1: There will be stronger recurring villains and allied NPCs. And by "stronger" I mean more established, not higher CR. One of Shackled City's strengths is the recurring NPCs; I think we could have done better with Age of Worms and that's certainly something I'd like to shore up if we do a Hardcover release of the campaign.

2: Interesting locations and dungeon crawls will certainly be a part of the campaign; it's not D&D without these two key components. Don't expect many 50-room dungeons thoguh.

3: The minis-scale maps are expensive to produce. We'll be doing a couple, but probably not more than we're doing for Age of Worms.

4: The first adventure in AP3 will certainly not neglect the "gathering the party" element. In fact, the current outline makes this a key part of the first adventure, rather than a single encounter (Shackeld City) or a vague list of recomendations (Age of Worms).

5: There will be conversion notes for different campaigns. They'll probably be an online supplement; we're considering doing them seperate from the map/illustration supplements in order to get them online more quickly.

6: I really like the idea of a checklist that details the key points that MUST occur in a particular adventure, like Cintra Bristol mentions above. This is a great idea.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
...1: There will be stronger recurring villains and allied NPCs. And by "stronger" I mean more established, not higher CR. One of Shackled City's strengths is the recurring NPCs; ...

Yes! My players said exactly that to me.

They told me, that for the first time they had the feeling of being part of a real world. I know it myself: If your group is traveling the whole campaign, you'll never get this feeling of "belonging" (sorry, can't find another word). edited: That was exactly the problem with the Ravenloft setting. Cauldron helped the role-playing aspect a lot, as most of the npc had been around all the time. A few ventures into the neighbouring countryside are fine though!
AoW has a lot of travleing in it. So it will be harder for me, to make it the same way as Cauldron worked out.
City settings are always great.


Will AP3 start up the month after AP2 concludes or will there be a short break?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Gibbon Riot wrote:
Will AP3 start up the month after AP2 concludes or will there be a short break?

There will be a break. James posted that in another thread, but for the life of me I'm not sure which one.

Dark Archive

James,

We really appreciate your feedback and ongoing response to our endless questions, requests, and poking. Thank you!

Obviously you are at the mercy of WOTC before you can publish AP3, but can you give us a guesstimate when we will get a blurb on it (y'know, setting, vague hints, etc)?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I've given guesstimates before (we'll have the Overload up online in two weeks) and had it do more harm than good. So nope; no vague hints yet, apart from confirming that there'll be a gap of at least a few issues between the end of Age of Worms and the start of AP3.


James--

One additional little "would like to see" item for AP3:

You mentioned some time ago that AP3 would likely have more wilderness adventures than previous APs. A suggestion, instead of battlemat sized encounter maps, would be to do small-scale sketches of the tactical layouts for key wilderness encounters. When I ran the Istivin arc last spring I made rough maps in advance for the main wilderness encounters in the second adventure, and was happy I had done so--it made those encounters much more interesting because the PCs and NPCs had to really take terrain into account--and could take advantage of it. This kind of map doesn't need to be very detailed, and doesn't even need to be put on a grid--a rough scale bar is fine. It just helps to know that the encounter takes place in a canyon, with a steep, rocky ridge on one side and a cliff on the other, or that the bandits are keeping watch from a hilltop about 300 yds to the east of the road, etc, and a map or diagram makes it much easier for most people to visualize. The maps shouldn't take too much effort for you all to do up, and would make wilderness encounters more interesting when the DM has only a few hours to prepare the adventure or doesn't have enough ranks in knowledge (nature) to make things up on their own.

Dark Archive

Another thought on the battle maps ... while this may on the surface seem like a bad idea (it being work for a web supplement, above and beyond the magazine), but what about taking all the combat maps in the adventure in the magazine, and putting them online at battle mat scale and/or scalability?

The art is already done, the cost of printing in the magazine is too high, and the benefit to your readers would be great. Of course, it doesn't force people to run out and buy more subscriptions ...

I subscribe to a computer magazine online (Lantica's Sesame Database Program) and they sell an annual subscription to their downloadable PDF magazine, with sample executables and databases. Would you/could you put something like battle-matt scaled maps online for a subscription? Each issue has about 6 battle maps - that'd be worth at least $40-60 per year. I'd pay for that.

Is that an idea that Dungeon could manage?


Actually, I'd like to see an AP go beyond 20th level - possibly even up to 30th (there are certainly enough monsters and whatnot to support it.)

Maybe for AP4 - even if it is a pipe dream.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:

And finally, while we're not completely done plotting out Adventure Path 3, I can guarentee that there's going to be more wilderness exploration in this one than in Shackled City and Age of Worms combined.

Excellent, excellent! In another thread, that was my foremost suggestion for the next Adventure Path. "Frostburn", "Sandstorm", and "Stormwrack" together are my my favorite-but-little-used series of game supplements. This sort of thing will give Druids and Rangers a chance to shine as they do in 'Encounter at Blackwall Keep' and 'Library of Last Resort'.

Similarly, I'd offer the suggestion for more diplomacy-and-intrigue-focused characters to shine early on and often. In our just-starting "Age of Worms" campaign, one of the characters is a Changeling with the Rogue racial substitution levels (allowing for some amazing bluffing and information-gathering at the expense of Trapfinding) but he's not had much of a chance to shine while exploring the Whispering Cairn, and really won't become a major contributor until they track down and confront Kullen's gang.

Other things aside, I'm for an "AP3" that purposefully allows characters of all types to shine in fairly equal measure. I understand that's perhaps the most challenging aspect of ANY adventure design, let alone one that's intended to be played by thousands and thousands of different groups.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

undeaddragonhunter wrote:

Actually, I'd like to see an AP go beyond 20th level - possibly even up to 30th (there are certainly enough monsters and whatnot to support it.)

Maybe for AP4 - even if it is a pipe dream.

Wish Granted!

As it turns out, there's a very good chance the PCs will be 21st level before they finish Age of Worms. It won't go MUCH further into Epic than this, though.


So is the next AP in the works already? :D


James Jacobs wrote:
1: There will be stronger recurring villains and allied NPCs. And by "stronger" I mean more established, not higher CR. One of Shackled City's strengths is the recurring NPCs; I think we could have done better with Age of Worms and that's certainly something I'd like to shore up if we do a Hardcover release of the campaign.

I strongly support this. We've just finished playing The Hall of Harsh Reflections, and our party can't for the life of us figure out how Zyrxog and the doppelgangers are related to the campaign. It seems completely disconnected from the main plot. Maybe we missed some clues, but if Zyrxog had been foreshadowed properly (or encountered) in a previous module the satisfaction of defeating it would have been manifold.

The only NPC we'd had any continuous interactions with is Allustan, and those are infrequent. Several of the dungeons we cleared had a "Batman villain of the week" kind of feel, rather than a growing, evolving menace.

I guess this is the problem with having so many different writers on a single project: continuity of plot and evolving NPCs.

I also wanted to add that linear dungeons like HoHR may look cool to the DM as a map and concept, but they're damn boring to go through as a player. It's just room after room of some strange monster or other. 3FOE, on the other hand, was frickin' brilliant because it created mystery by providing the illusion of choice, and opportunities to do some really wacky stuff (like play one faction against the other). It had unusual terrain options which created very intriguing fighting scenarios. That's the kind of original dungeon that makes for exciting play.


Oh, and before I forget, is there any chance of you catering the AP3 or AP4 to gritty, low-magic campaigns like Iron Heroes, Conan, Grim Tales or The Black Company?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Krypter wrote:
Oh, and before I forget, is there any chance of you catering the AP3 or AP4 to gritty, low-magic campaigns like Iron Heroes, Conan, Grim Tales or The Black Company?

Sorry to dissapoint, but there's absolutely no chance of this. AP3 will be a D&D adventure throguh and throguh, like Shackled City and Age of Worms. Since the Adventure Path has such a large presence in the magazine, it's more important than ever that it be for the style of D&D that most players use.

And yes... AP3 is in the works. The outline's currently at Wizards of the Coast getting looked over and awaiting approval.


James Jacobs wrote:


2: We should probably assume more readers are running the Age of Worms as a series than running individual adventures, spend less time on providing adventure hooks and guidance for running adventures as stand-alone adventures and more time providing strong links between adventures.

Won't this spell out as a recipe for disaster for you, James and Co., from hardliners who would be opposed to this idea and make such threats like canceling their subscriptions for having one less stand-alone adventure in their magazine?

Oh and I'm one of those who would like to see your idea above in AP3 and beyond.


While I run an Eberron-type "Age Of Worms", I've greatly enjoyed the Greyhawk-intense treatment done to the two Adventure Paths especially to the various locales: Amedio Jungle, Free City of Greyhawk, Cairn Hills, the Mistmarsh, the Nyr Dyv, Rift Canyon, the Bandit Kingdoms, etc.

James can you hint us to the area(s) of the next AP? But I'm hoping it would be in places that have not been extensively explored like (in my opinion): the ruins and mysterious locales described in "From the Ashes" (Red) Greyhawk Box set, the Great Kingdom, Scarlet Brotherhood, the blasted Baklunish lands to the west (I would love to see an AP set in the
Baklunish lands), The Sea Of Dust or the lands of the former Suel Imperium.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Overseer wrote:
Won't this spell out as a recipe for disaster for you, James and Co., from hardliners who would be opposed to this idea and make such threats like canceling their subscriptions for having one less stand-alone adventure in their magazine?

It might... but signs point to unlikely. We've had relatively little complaints about the Adventure Path taking up too much room (no complaints, actually), but we've had more than a few about how the adventures don't have stronger ties. You'll still be able to play the individual parts of AP3 as one-shot adventures, but we won't be assuming that and will have much stronger ties between each. If we get a lot of negative feedback, it's something that we can change back fairly easilly, in any event.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Overseer wrote:
James can you hint us to the area(s) of the next AP?

Not yet; the outline's still pending approval. Once it's approved, I'll start up a new thread filled with hints and revelations though.


James Jacobs wrote:
Overseer wrote:
James can you hint us to the area(s) of the next AP?
Not yet; the outline's still pending approval. Once it's approved, I'll start up a new thread filled with hints and revelations though.

You tease, you. =)


James, there is a way to include more adventures in an AP... have a couple of issues include two modules for the AP. I've also noticed that, when running an AP, there sometimes needs to be a 'filler' module for when the party is either larger than normal or is suffering more losses than normal. Might I suggest planning a 14 module series instead of a 12? I also would suggest taking it into epic, but not very far.

And I personally want to see more 50 room dungeons! I happen to like dungeon crawls, and so do my parties. Big dungeon crawls are fun... please include more of them, instead of smaller 15 room locations.

Squid


Squid wrote:
Might I suggest planning a 14 module series instead of a 12? I also would suggest taking it into epic, but not very far.

May I voice my opposition to this idea?

When playing Shackled City, my group and I found that the campaign started to lag at around 15th level or so. We were ready for something new. My opinion (and it is just that, of course) is that 12 adventures is about right, and taking the campaign from 1st to 20th level is also the way to go.

Of course, I'm also not a fan of the epic rules in general, so that might have something to do with it :-)

Contributor

I think going epic for, say, two adventures would be way cool.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The problem with 50 room dungeons isn't only sustaining an interesting adventuring environment over the course of that many rooms. It's also an issue of space. On average, a typical encounter is about 500 words. A 50 room dungeon would therefore take up 25,000 words. Add in the front and back matter to the adventure and you can easilly exceed 30,000 words for a single adventure.

Dark Archive

That assumes that every room in a large dungeon complex has an encounter that warrants a lengthy description, and that none of the rooms/encounters are similar to one another.

I loved reading "Dungeon of the Crypt" and "Chamber of Antiquities", and as stated earlier in a similar thread in the "Age of Worms" section of the forums, would very much enjoy seeing a sprawling complex in the next Adventure Path. Something along the lines of "Kings of the Rift", but hopefully earlier on in the AP so that so much of the magazine space that could potentially be devoted to describing the environs wasn't instead hogged by high-powered NPC stat blocks.

If hazarous terrain were one of the challenges in addition to the usual creatures-and-traps one-two punch, all the better, heh.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Golbez57 wrote:
That assumes that every room in a large dungeon complex has an encounter that warrants a lengthy description, and that none of the rooms/encounters are similar to one another.

Actually, the 500 word average is pretty solid assuming that several encounters in a dungeon are going to be short. Other encounters are sprawling behemoths that take 1,000 or even 2,000 words to describe.

As a general rule of thumb, you can estimate an adventure's length in words by multiplying the number of encounters by 500.

Sovereign Court

Things I would like to see in AP3:

- More Greyhawk elements. AoW was great for Greyhawk while still easily incorporated into Forgotten Realms or Eberron. Bringing back old 1st & 2nd edition NPC's, meeting major Greyhawk NPC's, and going as far south as the Amedio and as far north as the Rift were great. A nice gift to all those die-hards who have been gaming for 20+ years and a good way of introducing newer players to some of the classics.

- More maps. While the vast majority of encounters were mapped, a few encounters lacked them because they took place in nondescript locales. Not a big deal but I would've enjoyed a map of Zeech's palace or the nest of the Roc King.

- More handouts. I love handouts.

- Level 30 is a bit much, but 12 adventures at 2 levels a piece could bring PC's all the way to level 24. This means the last two adventures go epic, a nice touch IMO.

- More Adventure Path specific prestige classes and feats. The Wormhunter was great. Keep 'em coming.

Overall I have been extremely satisfied with the Adventure Paths. The best D&D material I've seen in the 16 years since I started. Keep it up. My only problem with the Adventure Paths is that since my group seems to be averaging 2 years per AP, this means that by the time we start AP3, Paizo will probably be starting AP6. So little time!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Hagen wrote:
- More Greyhawk elements. AoW was great for Greyhawk while still easily incorporated into Forgotten Realms or Eberron. Bringing back old 1st & 2nd edition NPC's, meeting major Greyhawk NPC's, and going as far south as the Amedio and as far north as the Rift were great. A nice gift to all those die-hards who have been gaming for 20+ years and a good way of introducing newer players to some of the classics.

AP3 will have more Greyhawk elements than Shackled City, but it'll probably have less Greyhawk elements than Age of Worms. That said, it will ABSOLUTELY have some key classics revisited.

Hagen wrote:
- More maps. While the vast majority of encounters were mapped, a few encounters lacked them because they took place in nondescript locales. Not a big deal but I would've enjoyed a map of Zeech's palace or the nest of the Roc King.

Maps cost money. It's a constant struggle come art/map order time to try to strike a balance between the two, since the amount of money we have to spend on both has to remain static from issue to issue. So: More Maps = Less Art, and vice-versa. We're also limited, to a certain extent, to what the authors provide to us as map turnovers. Often I'll whip up an additional map (or two, or more) for an adventure as they need it (I designed the map turnovers for Diamond Lake and Alhaster, for example), but for the most part there's just not enough time or budget to do much more maps than you currently see in the magazine.

Hagen wrote:
- More handouts. I love handouts.

I agree. Handouts are fun.

Hagen wrote:
- Level 30 is a bit much, but 12 adventures at 2 levels a piece could bring PC's all the way to level 24. This means the last two adventures go epic, a nice touch IMO.

We'll be staying to 20th level, althoguh like Age of Worms it's possible we'll edge into 21st near the end.

Hagen wrote:
- More Adventure Path specific prestige classes and feats. The Wormhunter was great. Keep 'em coming.

The main problem here is one of space concerns. There's already a bajillion prestige class options out there, so anything new has to justify itself as deserving to be a new class first of all. And then, if the new prestige class is really that important to the campaign, that means it's one more humungous set of stat blocks we have to set aside room for in every issue it appears in. We're far more likely to do something like the Wormhunter prestige class rather than the High Handcrafter prestige class, is what I'm saying.


il do it for free!


playtest that is


I am looking forward the 3rd Adventure Path. James, is there any chance at all of an occational return visit of Cauldron? Ideally, I would like to see this in a 3 adventure story arc for epic level. Barring that, one-shot epic adventures that revisit the city would be great.

- Neomorte


I know there is a lot of anti-"campaign setting specific" feelings on the messageboards for the AP, but I must admit that I get a little tired of the same standard D&D setting. I've briefly looked at the Adventure Paths in the bookstores and found them imaginative and interesting, but I'd like to see you break it up a little by including different kinds of settings, such as Eberron or Oriental Adventures or even Dark Sun. That would win my subscription. An Oriental Adventure AP would be awesome, particularly since no such thing exists as far as I know.

Just a little voice for the less popular side of things. I know it probably won't happen. Thanks for listening.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

We are listening. But we can't set an Adventure Path in a specific campaign world at this time, simply because the majority of the adventures in Dungeon have to be as "world neutral" as possible. That way it's easiest for the widest range of readers to convert to their favored campaign setting. We have been publishing conversion notes for using the Age of Worms in Forgotten Realms and Eberron, although we're chronically late with these updates. We're taking what we learned doing these types of updates with Age of Worms and will be applying that to Adventure Path 3.

But in the end, we simply can't afford to take up 1/3 of the magazine for a year with a campaign specific adventure path.

That said, what we've got planend for Adventure Path 3 takes the PCs to some pretty exotic locations...


James Jacobs wrote:
That said, what we've got planend for Adventure Path 3 takes the PCs to some pretty exotic locations...

I wouldn't mind some more planar adventuring!

Here would be my suggestions for the upcoming adventure path:

  • References to the previous adventure paths are definitely a good idea. After playing a character to 20th and saving the world, I might like my character to be the son of my former character, or someone inspired by or indirectly affected by his deeds. It'd also help munchkins give up their 20th level guy if their new one could be given a token gift by their former character - if you've seen the first episode of Yugioh GX, that's what I'm going for.
  • Take care not to overuse things that have become really cliche in D&D. Statues coming to life, as mentioned, is one of these - I honestly swear I've seen more statues come to life than statues stay still! It happens twice in the Istivin adventure trilogy, not counting the final battle. My players now destroy any statues they find. Other cliches include Gandalf-style bearded staff-carrying male wizard characters as party patrons and evil cults who wear robes and hide out in the sewers.
  • Some players prefer kick-in-the-door more than roleplaying and intrigue, others are the reverse. Try to keep adventures versatile, if that's possible, containing both elements and allowing DMs to emphasize whichever element they prefer.
  • Make a big deal on the cover of part 1 that people should buy the magazine to get in on the new 12-part adventure path. Make a big deal on the previous cover that they should buy this issue to find out how to subscribe in time for the adventure path.
  • How about giving more detailed conversion notes as online supplements with each issue, written by contributors? Eberron in particular could really do with changes to fit its tone properly - a Ftr5 might become a Warior level 3, clerics become adepts or experts, a wizard might become an artificer, and so on.


  • I have only one suggestion: make use of the Demonomicon articles. You have this wonderfull resource but most readers (including myself) have little idea of how to incorporate these ideas into an adventure, much less a campaign. I'd like to see some way to have the 10 or 12 Demonomicon articles (that will appear in Dragon magazine by the time AP3 is finished) made a part of a truly epic adventure.

    Just a thought.


    James Jacobs wrote:
    That said, what we've got planend for Adventure Path 3 takes the PCs to some pretty exotic locations...

    I look forward to seeing what you come up with...


    James Jacobs wrote:

    Ten things I learned from doing "Age of Worms":

    7: Ease up on the sudden animation of "harmless statues."

    Praise. to. Obad. Hai. I'm sick of this and trash it regularly.


    I'll through my vote behind keeping the detailed conversion notes.

    Its one thing to convert a Dungeon adventure or two into your current campaign setting of choice, but it becomes a little more time consuming when it is converting an entire campaigns worth of NPCs, locations, etc


    James Jacobs wrote:

    No chance of this, for 3 reasons.

    1: The adventure path takes up enough of Dungeon as it is; any more would make it overkill and reduce the use of the magazine for those who aren't running the adventure path.

    2: The focus of Wormfood is Player Information. By putting them in a different place, the players don't have to be reading the same magazine as the DM. Put differently, it keeps players from "accidentaly" reading the adventure. If we do something like this for AP3, it'll be incorperated better and won't give out too much information to spoil things.

    3: Wormfood drives readers of Dungeon who don't buy Dragon to buy Dragon (or at least to test it out).

    If AoW is reprinted in hardback, ala SCAP, will all of the Wormfood articles be included? Also will the online material be included? Or is this just asking too much..?

    Cheers
    Llowellen

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