Well if its NPCs that have appeared in previous editions, but have never been given statistics, then Dragotha and Kyuss should be included (actually, has anyone read the revised White Plume Mountain from WotC? They make Dragotha a black dragon rather than a red dragon. Go figure).
Lashonna is a new villain that might stick in people's memories. So might Mr. Dory from "The Styes" or any number of other villains (such as the protagonists in "Chimes At Midnight" or similar adventures). Really, there are no standouts. For that to happen we need WotC to release a few more modules with major new villains. Who knows what villains modules like "The Twilight Tomb' or the "Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde" might hold?
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Chatrilon Unosh, the cultist assassin hiding in Hommlet with Maridosen, Grune, Toridan, Vacra, and Master Dunrat in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. A very dangerous foe for 4th-5th-level characters (who decide to not purchase keys to lock their inn doors at night).
I'll second this one. My PCs hated this guy so much after he kept popping up in the most inconvenient places (it got personal for him, too) that I finally had to let them kill him off just to satisfy otherwise uncontrollable PC rage and bloodlust.
There are a ton of other excellent villains in RttToEE as well - I like the aboleth priest in his magical bubble the best, but the other leaders are memorable, too.
I agree that Vhalantru is a memorable fellow. My players have just "known" he is a big bad evil guy from the beginning of our Shackled City campaign, but have not come up with any proof, and always say "but what if he turns out to be good after all?" But now they are pretty convinced, and I have a feeling they'll finally face him in our very next sessions. I have a feeling the'll remember him for years to come.
Well if its NPCs that have appeared in previous editions, but have never been given statistics, then Dragotha and Kyuss should be included (actually, has anyone read the revised White Plume Mountain from WotC? They make Dragotha a black dragon rather than a red dragon. Go figure).
That's tough. Both have some resonance with older gamers and newer ones to boot. Also I would almost leave off Kyuss because of his godhood. Gods of evil are pretty impressive just in their direct descriptions as well as their inferred ones (via stats for their minions and such, i.e. old skool "sons of kyuss").
Lashonna is a new villain that might stick in people's memories. So might Mr. Dory from "The Styes" or any number of other villains (such as the protagonists in "Chimes At Midnight" or similar adventures). Really, there are no standouts. For that to happen we need WotC to release a few more modules with major new villains. Who knows what villains modules like "The Twilight Tomb' or the "Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde" might hold?
Lashonna is evil but beyond stats and templates and raw power I didn't find her to be as compelling as folks like Smenk, Filge, The Faceless One, The Ominous Fabler, and Zeech. I find it's tough to make Uber Black Hats with realistic motivations. The guys in between though? They can be as petty, greedy or as nasty as you like.
As for modules. Well I think it is true that while Dungeon does an excellent job in the adventure department, even more people will gravitate to "official" WotC modules and that it will be there that many of the future "black hats" will be found. Perhaps years from now someone will re-stat the Duskwalker for 6th Edition.
GGG
Lashonna is a new villain that might stick in people's memories. So might Mr. Dory from "The Styes" or any number of other villains (such as the protagonists in "Chimes At Midnight" or similar adventures).
Mr. Dory and the rogue's gallery from "Chimes" are both great examples of villain design just from the quirky backgrounds. Nick in fact gave us a slew of Dick Tracy-esk villains that probably each deserve their own intro before "Chimes" takes place. I love quirky bad guys -as I one day hope you will see.
;)G3
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The bad thisng about my group is that the BBEG they remember most and still talk about after 3 months and are still complaining about. The DA&&^*(^ Acid beatle swarm from the Whispering Cairn. Irae does not even hold a candle to the lowly bugs in my group. The disliked the spider queen but they loathed the bugs. The first thing they do now in any town they go into is look for some place to buy oil. I still make one of the group evry now and then lose a night of sleep in the game from night terrors. The characters are 5 level now and are still carrying arround a 1 gallon clay jug of oil.
Hey, did anyone mention Erivatius from The Quicksilver Hourglass? They don't get much nastier than that.
You know what I take back what I said about no Gods. This guy was cool, quirky, 10-foot-tall, and made out of lead, with a death wish and mad kung-fu skillz. You can't get much cooler (or nastier) than that.
I'll vote for the acid swarm too. No oil too bad. What sort of adventurers are you anyway to not have a lantern?
GGG
Bazim-Gorag. He was a fine villain.
Not familiar with the gent (or perhaps I'm blanking on the name). Where's he from?
GGG
The bad thisng about my group is that the BBEG they remember most and still talk about after 3 months and are still complaining about. The DA&&^*(^ Acid beatle swarm from the Whispering Cairn. Irae does not even hold a candle to the lowly bugs in my group. The disliked the spider queen but they loathed the bugs. The first thing they do now in any town they go into is look for some place to buy oil. I still make one of the group evry now and then lose a night of sleep in the game from night terrors. The characters are 5 level now and are still carrying arround a 1 gallon clay jug of oil.
Heh, I think the acid beetle swarm is going to go down in history as the equivilent of the grell encounter in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and the carrion crawler encounter in the Red Box's sample dungeon. You remember. The sucker is hiding under the remains of the keep's gate.
Thanks Erik,
GGG
So what exactly do you like in a villain? Killer stats/abilities? Staying power? Clever motivation? Menacing presence? Evil monologue? Sinister black cape? Light sabre?
GGG
Heh, I think the acid beetle swarm is going to go down in history as the equivilent of the grell encounter in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and the carrion crawler encounter in the Red Box's sample dungeon. You remember. The sucker is hiding under the remains of the keep's gate.
Thanks Erik,
GGG
*blinks*
That carrion crawler got me a few times.Man, I just had a flashback to when I was 10 and playing in the Caves of Chaos by the chicken coop!
*blinks*
That carrion crawler got me a few times.Man, I just had a flashback to when I was 10 and playing in the Caves of Chaos by the chicken coop!
::smacks head::
So, that's where the Caves of Chaos were!
;)
GGG, the LSD of the messageboards.
Hey, did anyone mention Erivatius from The Quicksilver Hourglass? They don't get much nastier than that.
You know what I take back what I said about no Gods. This guy was cool, quirky, 10-foot-tall, and made out of lead, with a death wish and mad kung-fu skillz. You can't get much cooler (or nastier) than that.
I'll vote for the acid swarm too. No oil too bad. What sort of adventurers are you anyway to not have a lantern?
GGG
Sorry, didn't know about the no god rule. Still, Erivatius has crazier kung fu moves than Dirk Diggler. The acid beetle swarm has sent two seperate parties back to town to fetch oil in my games so it's good to see it aint just me. But are they really a bad-ass villain? I got a ton of lethal encounters from dungeons gone by. Anyone remember the killer curtain of violet fungi in the Temple of Elemental Evil? In those days PCs avoided those things like the plague!
What about the crappiest villain ever (or is that a seperate thread)? My vote goes to Zuggtmoy in TOEE, cool villain but she looked like the stay-puff marshmellow man. Sorry, couldn't take her seriously.
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What about the crappiest villain ever (or is that a seperate thread)? My vote goes to Zuggtmoy in TOEE, cool villain but she looked like the stay-puff marshmellow man. Sorry, couldn't take her seriously.
Hey, she had four legs! Count 'em - FOUR!! How scary is that, eh?!
*gives up defending the lame, silly Zuggtmoy*
That illustration was pretty useless - she looked like the illegitimate love child of the Michelin Man and a puffy mushroom... Yet another more thing 3.x does better - art!!
My vote for worst villain goes to Brazzemal in The Halls of the Fire Giant King. Huge ancient red dragon sleeping on a mountain of gold in an extradimensional space in the basement of a fire giant dungeon? Yeah, right. However, those 57 trolls in the cave next to his lair were pretty nasty...
Runner-up is that insane mega-powerful super-wizard that stocks the Undermountain dungeons with monsters (the name escapes me). That is such a good explanation for why the biggest, most dangerous dungeon anywhere is right underneath the biggest city in the world... Undermountain is probably the single biggest reason I dislike FR. *Grumble grumble*
Navanna Vladaam from The Banewarrens.
She messed with the party sooo many times, causing serious damage, the expenditure of equipment and items, and she even stole a few items! It took a major coordinated effort to take her down, including the purchase/manufacture of some key magic items. They were so paranoid about her frequent assaults that it allowed some of the other events going on in the Banewarrens time to manifest without incedent.
And with "daddy" Vladaam coming home from a long quest to find a collection of powerful swords, if we revisit Ptolus, there will be hell to pay.
Runner-up is that insane mega-powerful super-wizard that stocks the Undermountain dungeons with monsters (the name escapes me). That is such a good explanation for why the biggest, most dangerous dungeon anywhere is right underneath the biggest city in the world... Undermountain is probably the single biggest reason I dislike FR. *Grumble grumble*
Oh yeah, that was Halaster Blackcloak. All FR bashing aside, Undermountain was a big disappointment...despite the cool maps. I'll Take Maure Castle any day.
Getting back to 3e, and I know a lot will disagree, I think Lashonna is a pretty lame villain. A silver dragon that was "transformed into a vampire by Dragotha"? How, exactly, and why? She comes across too much like the writer was hard up for good ideas. Besides, I thought dragons can't be vampires.
Haven't ran the adventure yet, but knowing my party this guy is going to drive them up the walls. I don't remember the name, but it's an Eberron adventure from Dungeon where one of the most famous inquisitives goes bad, and releases a bunch of villians he himself put away to run amock in Sharn. My group has a habbit of running face first right into complex traps and things, so this guy is going to have a field day with them.
I can give you two villains that my players were never scared of after they heard their names: Balsag the Hunter from Sunless Citadel and Shukak the Chieftain of the Twisted Branch lizardfolk.
Balsag is self explanatory.
They started calling Shukak (pardon my French) Penis Sandals after hearing his name aloud.
Weird names kill villains faster than PCs.
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My party's most dreaded enemy had to be Shahng from Wrath of the Abyss.
They were all basically playing fighters (1 dwarf cleric/fighter pious templar of Clangeddin, a fighter/master samurai and a single classed elf fighter).
It was the first time that one enemy nearly defeated the entire party single-handedly.
I wish she would have played a more prominent role. (awesome combination of classes)
Haven't ran the adventure yet, but knowing my party this guy is going to drive them up the walls. I don't remember the name, but it's an Eberron adventure from Dungeon where one of the most famous inquisitives goes bad, and releases a bunch of villians he himself put away to run amock in Sharn. My group has a habbit of running face first right into complex traps and things, so this guy is going to have a field day with them.
Viktor from "Chimes at Midnight" by Nicholas Logue I think is the guy you are refering to. I would say that a lot of the bad guys presented in that adventure have a certain Dick Tracey-esk quality about them.
GGG
They started calling Shukak (pardon my French) Penis Sandals after hearing his name aloud.
I think "Penis Sandals" beats out "Lord Orbiously The Bad Guy" for the most amusing lampooning of a villain's name.
Sorry, didn't know about the no god rule. Still, Erivatius has crazier kung fu moves than Dirk Diggler.
I would say that Erivatius can stay on the list, only because by the time characters reach 30th-level (the level needed to play "Quicksilver Hourglass") they should be fighting gods on fairly even ground.
GGG
And how about the Deep Mother from "The Stink" (Dungeon #105)? Or for that matter, Warduke from the very same issue (the critcal threat)?Yeah, I know he's old school but he's still pretty cool...
And how about the Deep Mother from "The Stink" (Dungeon #105)? Or for that matter, Warduke from the very same issue (the critcal threat)?Yeah, I know he's old school but he's still pretty cool...
Warduke is very cool, though he has yet to be used in a cool adventure and even then I think I would retweak him with new feats maybe even The Book of Nine Swords. I actually tried to put him in an adventure that I got accepted but had to cut him for space. It's crazy nigh-Istivin-original-draft-long, and a stat block nightmare to boot - so James said it won't be showing up for a while (if ever ::crosses fingers::). It is absolutely stuffed with (what I hope are memorable) villains. I can't give away too many details (partly 'cause I know there are bound to be cuts - heck, I even sent in an abridge version), but it's just loaded with baddies (and folks who can become the PCs antagonists given the right motivation) perhaps as many as attended Prince Zeech's gala earlier this year. Anyhow its geared toward folks who like old skool as well as those who like their RP.
You know I have yet to run the Stink (could be set in the Styles don't ya know ;), but the Deep Mother doesn't stand out to me even as much as the cleric from "Seekers of the Silver Forge" or the ooze master from a few issues back. Maybe I'll give her another look. It could just be the age of the adventure.
GGG
And how about the Deep Mother from "The Stink" (Dungeon #105)? Or for that matter, Warduke from the very same issue (the critcal threat)?Yeah, I know he's old school but he's still pretty cool...Warduke is very cool, though he has yet to be used in a cool adventure and even then I think I would retweak him with new feats maybe even The Book of Nine Swords. I actually tried to put him in an adventure that I got accepted but had to cut him for space. It's crazy nigh-Istivin-original-draft-long, and a stat block nightmare to boot - so James said it won't be showing up for a while (if ever ::crosses fingers::). It is absolutely stuffed with (what I hope are memorable) villains. I can't give away too many details (partly 'cause I know there are bound to be cuts - heck, I even sent in an abridge version), but it's just loaded with baddies (and folks who can become the PCs antagonists given the right motivation) perhaps as many as attended Prince Zeech's gala earlier this year. Anyhow its geared toward folks who like old skool as well as those who like their RP.
You know I have yet to run the Stink (could be set in the Styles don't ya know ;), but the Deep Mother doesn't stand out to me even as much as the cleric from "Seekers of the Silver Forge" or the ooze master from a few issues back. Maybe I'll give her another look. It could just be the age of the adventure.
GGG
My choice of the Deep Mother is partially biased, I'm a sucker for stuff with Incabulos. Still, an interseting choice to use a locathah (something I've largely ignored since Danger at Dunwater).
Wasn't Warduke in an old expert rules dungeon called Quest for the Heartstone?
Wasn't Warduke in an old expert rules dungeon called Quest for the Heartstone?
Well technically (and I should have noted this earlier) that does disqualify him as a New Black Hat. This thread's primary focus is on determining who the new Warduke will be. The character that folks will be remebering 20 years from now. That and I'm not sure how cool that particular adventure was. I think most of Warduke's appeal stems from his Boba Fett-like mysteriousness, his nifty artwork/action figure, and his appearance in the D&D cartoon. All valid. It just makes him old skool cool.
I think Shahng from "Wrath of the Abyss" comes close, but I agree with the Koriatsar. She needed a bigger role.
GGG
You could give Warduke a squire/kid sidekick, like Robin or Bucky or Captain Marvel Jr.
Warduke and Son of Heathans - I can see it now.
Can't you old chum?
GGG
I tried to make Eldara Lilybrook from Funeral Procession into a Shiny New Black Hat for my Saltmarsh game, but I felt like a few things got in the way, namely that she's a necromancer while Thrall of Graz'zt (the prestige class she supposedly wants to gain) is better for sorcerers or at least people with the ability to cast magic missile and evocation spells. So I changed that about her.
By my own "on the spot villainous exposition" was my undoing.
"This is the last time you foil my plans, fools!"
"Last time? This is the first time we've met."
It's a battle against cliches that I often lose when I don't have a pre-prepared script of villainous insults.
Hey, did anyone mention Erivatius from The Quicksilver Hourglass? They don't get much nastier than that.
Woohoo! Still scary after a year and a half!
Woohoo! Still scary after a year and a half!
That sucker will ALWAYS be scary. I'm planning on using him as an actual god in my campaigns. I mean, he WEEPS LEAD. His beard is made of iron, and constantly falls to pieces. And yes, he knows kung-fu.
Sick. Just sick.
Wasn't Warduke in an old expert rules dungeon called Quest for the Heartstone?Well technically (and I should have noted this earlier) that does disqualify him as a New Black Hat. This thread's primary focus is on determining who the new Warduke will be. The character that folks will be remebering 20 years from now. That and I'm not sure how cool that particular adventure was. I think most of Warduke's appeal stems from his Boba Fett-like mysteriousness, his nifty artwork/action figure, and his appearance in the D&D cartoon. All valid. It just makes him old skool cool.
GGG
Just for the sake of obscure footnotes:
Warduke might not meet the spirit of a Black Hat from his appearance in "Quest for the Heartstone" alone. He was actually, believe it or not, a pre-generated character for use as a PC to stomp the module's villains.
You could actually have Warduke in the same party as his nemesis, Strongheart, which given the illustrations in the mod, the author seemed to have intended. (For example, if you can picture the cover the pair are fighting side-by-side) I vaguely recall reading elsewhere that the famous pair were to have had a falling out after Warduke was 'affected' by the Heartstone and became further twisted still. If there's such a thing as Warduke cannon, this might not qualify.
I don't mean to say he's not an old school Black Hat though, I am sure he was a notorious villain in many a campaign or perhaps other source material.
-MiKe
Woohoo! Still scary after a year and a half!Hey, did anyone mention Erivatius from The Quicksilver Hourglass? They don't get much nastier than that.
Yeah, in my campaign he became a long lost Suel deity revered by the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Vhalantru from Shackled City is definitely a memorable villain, but I'd also say Thrommel from Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil has to rank right up there.
It seems some of the newer baddies in Maure Castle haven't received their due, like Yug-Anark and Afelbain. I haven't yet run the 3E version so I can't say how tough they were, but they are two of the coolest villains I've read about in a long time.
"This is the last time you foil my plans, fools!"
"Last time? This is the first time we've met."
"Is it though? You killed me six times in my previous incarnations! Prepare to suffer my wrath!"
Should have used the Agrajag speech from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
I nominate Prince Zeech and Lord Raknian, although Zeech wasn't especially villainous in our version of The Prince of Redhand. Raknian, on the other hand, single-handedly mangled our entire party and humiliated us so badly that we licked our wounds for weeks. Our group stomped on Filge, Smenk and Cullen pretty quickly before they could make much of an impression, but they are good villains.
"This is the last time you foil my plans, fools!"
"Last time? This is the first time we've met.""Is it though? You killed me six times in my previous incarnations! Prepare to suffer my wrath!"
Should have used the Agrajag speech from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
I nominate Prince Zeech and Lord Raknian, although Zeech wasn't especially villainous in our version of The Prince of Redhand. Raknian, on the other hand, single-handedly mangled our entire party and humiliated us so badly that we licked our wounds for weeks. Our group stomped on Filge, Smenk and Cullen pretty quickly before they could make much of an impression, but they are good villains.
I would almost tag-team Zeech and the Ominous Fabler, whom I played like Lear's Fool from Shakespeare's play. Fabler did most of the talking at the party and instilled in my group a deep hatred of bards. I have yet to play "Champion's Belt" (I used "Prince of Redhand" for my own campaign. Yes, treason I know, but there you have it.) But from reading that scenario I would say Raknian qualifies. Filge I also like as a New Black Hat if only because he throws such excellent dinner parties - a common theme it seems in the Age of Worms.
Now here's a question what about Vanthus Vanderboren? So far the characters only know him by his deeds. I am currently of the opinion that while this is okay the instigator of the Savage Tide really needs to show up soon and do something bad up close and personal to the characters and soon.
Gx3
Now here's a question what about Vanthus Vanderboren? So far the characters only know him by his deeds. I am currently of the opinion that while this is okay the instigator of the Savage Tide really needs to show up soon and do something bad up close and personal to the characters and soon.Gx3
He actually did get up close and personal in the first adventure: he sealed the characters alive in the Parrot Island smugglers' caves.
I think my favorite NPC villain in 3.0/3.5 is from "The Razing of Redshore" in Dungeon #92. She was a beautiful halfling with black-stained hands....
James - I can't put into words the hatred and fear my players had for that halfling you created. Needless to say, she always brought a smile to my face.
Heh heh heh - good times :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
He actually did get up close and personal in the first adventure: he sealed the characters alive in the Parrot Island smugglers' caves.
Now here's a question what about Vanthus Vanderboren? So far the characters only know him by his deeds. I am currently of the opinion that while this is okay the instigator of the Savage Tide really needs to show up soon and do something bad up close and personal to the characters and soon.Gx3
You know I just noticed that the other day. I tend not to read the APs until I get three of them or more in hand. Yeah, I think Vanthus Vanderboren will end up being a genuine shiny new black hat but keeping him alive has kept him (mostly) out of the last two adventures. It will be interesting to see how they work that out in the next few adventures.
GGG