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Paladin Divine Health and Worms


Age of Worms Adventure Path

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Rob Bastard wrote:
I would rule that paladins are immune, on the basis that the worm is killed by Cure Disease. I was looking over the stats for SoK awhile back, & I think I decided that they would be affected by Kyuss's Gift, but not by the create spawn ability. Don't remember why--don't have the stuff in front of me right now.

Sorry, I meant the other way around--IMC, paladins are immune to Kyuss's Gift, but not to create spawn. I got mixed up there for a minute.


Has anyone noticed that the description for remove disease notes, "The spell also kills parasites, including green slime and others." I would guess that's why remove disease kills the worms.

I'm not sure why remove curse should kill a worm unless the spell is removing a curse from the worm itself. Is the worm cursed and that is the magic that allows it to transform corpses into undead.

Neutralize poison also has nothing in its text to explain why it effects worms except that it can be used to neutralize the poison in a creature or object for the spells duration. Does the worm secret some kind of poison? It doesn't use the poison rules, but maybe it does secret its poison until the creature is dead.

So taking all that into account the the Kyuss worm might be a cursed parasite that secrets a magical poison??? (Huh???)

Another thought is that both remove disease and neutralize poison are both Conjuration (healing) spells, which sorta implies that they channel positive energy (at least cure spells do). Maybe its the positive energy that effects the worms.

Anyways looking at the divine health description... no where does it say that a paladin has a permanent remove curse ability. In fact in the SRD divine health is an extraordinary ability. There is not magic about it. If it were a permanent remove disease ability wouldn't it be spell-like or supernatural??? By the RAW paladins don't seem to be immune to Kyuss worms although you can always house rule. I probably won't.

Shade325

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Shade325 wrote:
In fact in the SRD divine health is an extraordinary ability. There is nothing magical about it. If it were a permanent remove disease ability wouldn't it be spell-like or supernatural???

Probably the most convincing bit of metagaming I've read yet. The Create Spawn ability of sons/spawn of Kyuss is a Supernatural (Su), which trumps an Extraordinary (Ex) ability in my mind. Still, I'm in favour of allowing some Fort saves for the worm and paladin rathering than ruling to one extreme or the other.

So has anyone submitted this question to the Sage for Sage Advice?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's just an aspect of their nature. A quirk or magic and powers that created them. Think of them as more of a plague than tiny worms.


At face value it would seem that paladins would be affected just as anyone else would. Are paladins immune to green slime and the monstrous fungi spores in 3.5 edition? I guess that would sway my thinking quite a bit. As would their immunity to rot grubs, if they existed in the current rules.


Given that on another thread it was noted that the damage reduction of Warlocks and Barbarians would prevent the worms from burrowing, I think were I playing a paladin I'd be a bit upset if I look over and see the barbarian is immune due to his thick hide and hard living, the warlock is immune due to his pacts with creatures that should not be dealt with, and then my own devotion to the ideals of good nets me . . . nothing in this case. I am going to run them as immune to the worms.


Achilles wrote:
...the real question is, is divine health effectivly the same a remove disease....they affect the same things the same way, why not the worms? For taht matter, why WOULD Kyuss worms be affected by remove disease, if they are tiny creatures and not a true disease?

It's magic, not logic (though I agree your logic is reasonable).

In 3.5, if it says remove disease, that's what it means -- no exceptions unless they are stated (or plainly implied).

Jack


wraith_bones wrote:

ive been a dm since the early 80s,and having all those years xp i would say the worms do 1 point of damage as it burrows in then dies from the paladins divine health.

crippling the character class by making exceptions is a good way tp lose your players

Concur. I don't even make an exception for the 1hp damage. I'm running it as full immunity based on divine health by the logic that not all diseases covered by divine health are removed with "remove disease" but if "remove disease" removes it then it's covered. I also wouldn't try to logically determine what is and isn't a disease in D&D. It's a complicated enough subject in real-life.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Rexx wrote:
Shade325 wrote:
In fact in the SRD divine health is an extraordinary ability. There is nothing magical about it. If it were a permanent remove disease ability wouldn't it be spell-like or supernatural???
Probably the most convincing bit of metagaming I've read yet. The Create Spawn ability of sons/spawn of Kyuss is a Supernatural (Su), which trumps an Extraordinary (Ex) ability in my mind.

Spell Resistance is (Ex)...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have been following this thread for a few days now and I am not surprised that this issue is so divided. Personally, until half an hour ago, I as a DM, wasn’t sure which way I was going go until a thought occurred to me. A kyuss worm is in no way shape or form a disease or a parasite. It doesn’t carry any disease. It is simply a worm (albeit a very nasty one).
How do most undead (I say most because I’m not going to read through all published undead and I’m sure there are exceptions) that are capable of creating spawns, create spawns? They do so by killing their victims. Vampires, ghasts, ghouls, and wrights just to name a few, create spawns this way. Shadows reduce your strength to 0 before you become a spawn. My point is that none of these instances of creating a spawn are in anyway diseases. More importantly, and please correct me if I am wrong, a Paladin is not immune to becoming an undead upon death. A Spawn of Kyuss creates a spawn just like the fore mentioned undead; it kills its victim. It simply has a slightly different approach to killing you; it lets part of its symbiotic being (if you read ecology of kyuss in dragon 336, one cannot exist without the other) bore through your body, reaching your brain, and then devouring it. A victim loses 1d2 points of intelligence per round until the victim reaches 0 intelligence. A person cant live without a brain! Upon death, the victim becomes a new Spawn of Kyuss. It is not a disease that causes a victim to become a Spawn of Kyuss, but rather, death. Therefore, paladin’s Divine Health cannot protect him from becoming a spawn of Kyuss.
Now as to the argument that because a remove disease spell kills the worm, therefore a paladin should be immune to the worms, I say this. The creators (authors) of this undead creature needed ways prevent every worm infestation from killing its victim. Otherwise, it would be a CR off the charts. And rather than creating a new cleric spell called Destroy worm of Spawn of Kyuss, they decided that because Cure disease removes things contained within the body it was a workable solution. Simple as that I say.


Royster wrote:
A kyuss worm is in no way shape or form a disease or a parasite. It doesn’t carry any disease. It is simply a worm (albeit a very nasty one).

You make some pretty good points. For clarity's sake, a disease is a condition. Specifically, a condition that impairs normal function in a living thing. An organism cannot be a disease but they can cause disease. In that case, the organism is pathogenic. Diseases can have no underlying organisms, typically one, or several different ones. Some quick examples that might help...

Sickle-cell anemia is a disease with no underlying pathogenic organism.
HIV is not a disease, it's a pathogenic class of virus because it causes the disease condition AIDS.
Meningitis is a disease caused by any number of bacteria or viruses.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Royster wrote:
My point is that none of these instances of creating a spawn are in anyway diseases...

Yet none of the other mentioned forms of becoming undead are affected by Remove Disease, either....


KnightErrantJR wrote:
Given that on another thread it was noted that the damage reduction of Warlocks and Barbarians would prevent the worms from burrowing...

Is there an official ruling on this or was this just one opinion? I'd have to disagree with it. The worm burrows into the flesh one round after it is placed on a creature. A side effect of the burrowing is 1 point of damage for 1d4+1 rounds. DR negates this damage but it doesn't negate the burrowing. 1d4+1 rounds later it makes it way to the brain.

I guess its all about how you see DR. The description in the MM gives two description, one is weapons bounce off the creature and the other is that wounds heal quickly. In the later case the worm could feasably burrow. In the other the DR argument has some merit.

Shade325

Osirion

I'm bumping this one, since it's just become relevant.

Given the proposed changes hinted at in the PF previews, it looks as if Remove Disease and other cures are to be reworded to require a caster level check vs the DC of the affliction, rather than being automatic.

I'm fine with this, as I don't like there being so many automatic effects or immunities, since you come up against situations in which the irresistable force comes up against the immovable object.

It brings back some uncertainty, and tension. It allows for the creation of afflictions with varying DC to have varying levels of spread. It allows for 'plague' storylines to be possible. It makes PCs buy and use more charges from scrolls and wands.

I think I'll check out the PF rule, and then declare that Paladins have a Remove Disease effect flowing through themselves, allowing a new chance, each round, to wipe out any diseases in their system (including each worm).

This makes very little difference to normal, slow-acting diseases, for which you can assume they rolled a natural 20 at some point during the day, but keeps the tension high for the faster, burrowing worms.

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