I once ruled when I was first DM'ing that one of my players couldn't make a character with more than one template, not seeing it as a feasability at the time. However, Dungeon #126's Blood of Malar lists Vampiric Lycanthropes, and so then the question arises, how many templates?
I'm much more open with my story arcs and player allowances, but I still hold story balance in very high regard. Any thoughts on the subject? Maybe a Titanic Vampiric Half-Dragon Werebear?
I once ruled when I was first DM'ing that one of my players couldn't make a character with more than one template, not seeing it as a feasability at the time. However, Dungeon #126's Blood of Malar lists Vampiric Lycanthropes, and so then the question arises, how many templates?
I'm much more open with my story arcs and player allowances, but I still hold story balance in very high regard. Any thoughts on the subject? Maybe a Titanic Vampiric Half-Dragon Werebear?
I was doing some thinking on the same subject a while back. In the end, a template is just another way to add certain options to a character. In a way a race, prestige class, core class, even a feat or skill is just another template you add to your character.
In other words, a template is just a game mechanic to create certain options. For example, in 2nd edition you had a monster called a Cambion, which was the product of a humanoid and another demon (often a succubus). 3rd edition treats those creatures as half-demons. It's the same creature created using two different mechanisms: a race and a template.Now I suppose it's possible to have a half-demon-half-dragon-lich-troll. would I allow it? no way! In the end, though, it's all up to what you and your players want. I'm lucky enough to have a group of players that are relatively new to the game. They're not tired of the base classes yet, so I'm very limiting in terms of the kind of characters I allow. In other words, just what's in the core books. I occasionaly use creatures from other books, and plan on introducing prestige classes at some point in the game, but for now, we're fine with just the basics.
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I suppose that, like anything else, it depends on the story. If you can come up with a non-ridiculous explanation as to why the character has X number of templates, then what the hell. For example, you mentioned the vampiric werewolves in the recent Waterdeep story. Well, I for one can reasonably see how some lycanthropes could be infected with vampirism. On the other hand, if you go to WotCs D&D website, you can see some excellent examples of templates and creatures that really don't fit well together, no matter waht kind of idioitc story they come up with.
All that being said, if I were DMing, I would probably limit it to, at most, two or three templates. I'd keep an open mind, though, if my players could explain it weel enough.
I'd like to see them limited to one per adventure. Not one creature with a template, just one template.
There are rules for how many templates a character can use. Shock, right? There is a pyramid of creature types which exists - humanoids and such are on the bottom, while others, such as aberrations, are at the top. You can take a template that changes you from a lower level to a higher, but not in the other direction.
In my game, if someone wants to add a template, I work with them to hammer out the concept they're going for. They are great tools (like PrCs), so I rarely say "No!" However, I prefer to use they to enhance a character concept or roleplaying. Sometimes, when I speak with a player about a template, and they see the ramifications of the choices they are making, they back off. But, it's their character, so unless I want to ban the template outright, I have to let them take it, it they're determined to do so.
I think multiple templates stretches credibility pretty badly -- tieflings are rare by themselves, so are lycanthropes, and so are half-dragons. How many half-dragon werewolf tieflings are there going to be in the whole campaign world? (Probably none)
For most players I've seen (there are exceptions), templates are a route to power-gaming -- pick and choose advantages and abilities that are paired with disadvantages that won't bother the player. (in 2/e D&D: "but it comes with -2 Charisma. That's a crippling disadvantage, really Mr. DM!!")
I'll entertain templates, but I can't envision ever letting a PC have two.
That said, EPH is right -- they can make for great character concepts.
Just my two cents,
Jack
I believe that templates should always make "story sense", paying particular attention whether they are always inherited or are acquireable.
SPOILERS FOR BLOOD OF MALAR:
The story reason for the vampire werewolves is that Dhusarra specifically sought out and created minions from a tribe of Uthgardt barbarian lycanthropes of the Gray Wolf tribe.
--Eric
There are rules for how many templates a character can use. Shock, right? There is a pyramid of creature types which exists - humanoids and such are on the bottom, while others, such as aberrations, are at the top. You can take a template that changes you from a lower level to a higher, but not in the other direction.
To the best of my knowledge, this is incorrect. As long as you meet the requirements (if any) for a template, you can tack it on - regardless of what creature type you are, and regardless of what creature type it makes you.
Now, granted, I can't recall ever seeing a template that makes an aberration a humanoid. But that doesn't mean it's A) not possible and B) not out there somewhere in some product.
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All that said, I agree they need to make sense, and shouldn't just be slapped on. As a DM, though, I did once string nine of them together. I forget what the base creature was, but it was done on a lark. It was way too much effort...
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Taking too many templates is bad, and here's why.
Players taking multiple templates with level adjustments build fragile characters. Take a 10th level fighter, or a 1st level fighter who is a mineralized vampire. He just isn't going to be very resilient, regardless of all his cool toys.
I've ruled IMC players can't take more than a +3 Level Adjustment. Heck, even the player who wanted to play a half-dragon took some convincing to use Sean Reynolds' gradiated template progression, so he could alternate between his half-dragonish advancement and his Hit Dice advancement. If he hadn't, he would have never survived.
There are rules for how many templates a character can use. Shock, right? There is a pyramid of creature types which exists - humanoids and such are on the bottom, while others, such as aberrations, are at the top. You can take a template that changes you from a lower level to a higher, but not in the other direction.
In my game, if someone wants to add a template, I work with them to hammer out the concept they're going for. They are great tools (like PrCs), so I rarely say "No!" However, I prefer to use they to enhance a character concept or roleplaying. Sometimes, when I speak with a player about a template, and they see the ramifications of the choices they are making, they back off. But, it's their character, so unless I want to ban the template outright, I have to let them take it, it they're determined to do so.
E P,
I would be interested in such a pyramid in complete form, mayhaps you would know where I could find it? BTW, to everyone, the feedback is great on this subject, and has really helped to iron out some wrinkles with my players. Thanks.
Basically, use your judgement as a DM. If it makes sense, allow it . A drow lycanthrope lich? Could happen, but unless there was a real good reason, I would probably say no. How common would that be?
WaterdhavianFlapjack
I think that if you are allowing PCs to add templates, you have to be careful. That being said, I used the Eberron Shifter as a template in my game and it worked well. I also have three characters that are infected as were rats, but they have yet to realize it or "rat out".
I think applying templates could become crazy if you allow it because most of theme seem perfectaly stackable. Of cource characters desireing Templates for their PCs are usually trying to power game. As a DM, I would be very careful in allowing PCs to aquire templates by choice.
ASEO out
I would be interested in such a pyramid in complete form, mayhaps you would know where I could find it? BTW, to everyone, the feedback is great on this subject, and has really helped to iron out some wrinkles with my players.
Grrr. I wish I could remember. It's in the back of one of my books, though I can't remember which one right now. Let me do some digging, and I'll get back to you ASAP.
I believe that the book your looking for is Savage Species. That has a list of creature types and how they are affected by templates. Aberrations are higher on the list than humanoids because while humanoids can be made into aberrations, aberrations cannot be made into humanoids. The construct type is at the top of the table together with outsiders and undead, which means that while every other creature could gain one of these three types, no construct, outsider, or undead can be turned into another creature. Actually if you use the list properly outsiders cannot be turned into undead, constructs cannot be turned into outsiders and so on. Of course, WOtC loves contradicting its own rules to create bigger (but not necessarily better) beasties. They seem to turn lots of demons into undead for some reason.
I believe that the book your looking for is Savage Species.
Yep. Page 142.
...which means that while every other creature could gain one of these three types, no construct, outsider, or undead can be turned into another creature. Actually if you use the list properly outsiders cannot be turned into undead, constructs cannot be turned into outsiders and so on.
Not reaaly true. You _can_ apply templates to these three groups, it's just more complex. For instance, they give the example of a half-dragon elemental...
I have been corrected.
I agree with Tatterdemalion. Use of templates is often illogical and they shouldn't just be handed out like candy. I also agree that they are often just a tool to advance powergaming, which, of course, upsets game balance.
This concept of "well, if the players are determined to have it, you have to let them" is complete crap. Who's running this game anyway?
I think it's the worst kind of playing to allow anything and everything just because it appears in some sourcebook (or worse, some article) somewhere. D&D is all about options but taking all of them, or even most of them, just leads to an illogical, unbalanced game and a host of problems. Even if a game mechanic/rule/option appears in one of WOTC's core books doesn't mean that the players automatically have some "right" to claim it. Everything is subject to the DM's perogative.
There are no bad players, just poor DMs.
It's my belief that the core of this problem is as follows: party's starting out at levels beyond 1. If you start out at level 1 there is almost no way to gain a template.
I have always seen templates as things that are appropiate for NPC's.
Just my opinion ofcourse and I should probably count myself lucky that no player has inquired about gaining templates.
The Dragmonicon mentions one of the sample dragon as spawning Halfdragon Shambling Mounds, and other halfdragon plant monsters. Now that I do not buy. I guess the same would be true for most undead templates and plants.
ASEO out
...that I do not buy. I guess the same would be true for most undead templates and plants.
ASEO out
Dude - you've never seen the parts of my garden that my wife tends to. Scary.
:D
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I never had the problem that one of the players wanted to add more than one template to his character.
We have the rule that every aspect of a new character has to be explained by its background and i really can't imagine a really good story for a creature with three or more templates.
If my players come up with a fantastic idea that proves me lies, than i'd allow it if it is within the balance regarding other characters in the group.
Templates themselves aren't that bad. They are a great way to create unique concepts for characters of all kind (including PCs)and are some of my favorite game mechanics of the recent edition.
It really depends on what you make out of it. PrC's, feats or even multi-classing can be abused in similar ways so i won't create restrictions regarding templates in my game.
As always, the DM has the last word on everything in the campaign.
You can have as many templates as you can find a reason for. Some combinations are unlikely (a half-dragon gelatinous cube) and some are outrageously impossible (a celestial fiendish badger, a lich vampire), but in general, if you have a feasible story for it, you can go with it. Did I ever tell you about my unbeatable half-black-dragon half-brass-golem troll lich cleric?
I really like the flexible options that templates give a DM. I like the fact that I can come up with weird NPC's and monsters unique to my campaign that are totally compatible with the core rules.
Having said that, I allowed three players to get one template and one to play a weird race for the SCAP, because I thought I was only going to be running 3 PC's run by 3 players. I ended up with 6 PC's run by 5 players and I regret having allowed it.
I say, no templates for player characters. Leave the template as a tool for the DM to come up with unique challenges for his game. If PC's want to do weird stuff, they can multi-class or get a prestige class.
...for the sake of a good story, though, I could be persuaded to change my mind, as many of you have mentioned in this thread.
... i really can't imagine a really good story for a creature with three or more templates.
If my players come up with a fantastic idea that proves me lies, than i'd allow it if it is within the balance regarding other characters in the group.
I'm sure there's plenty of good stories available to help explain three templates. From a DM's perspective, I have a whole different problem with a PC stacking three templates onto his character - he's going to suck, bad. That's going to be at least a +3 level adjustment, probably more. That's a ton of hit points and other things to be behind on.
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As a PC, the only template I've ever applied to a character was the Saint template, and that's on a current character. It presents some really interesting roleplay opportunities, actually.
I'd say it's really up to the DM(personally I'd say 2 is fine), but shoud be heavily policed so as to not build ungodly powerful PCs from the get go who have a level-adjustment of 20 and can be killed with a sneeze. Honestly the player is punishing themselves when they do so, especially if you don't forget to count the adjustment as multiclass levels. I say this from personal experience as a PC and a DM. My main play character started out as a Werewolf Monk who wished on a genie to get Stormtouched powers and the resulting 9 adjustment seriously took away from the gameplay for me as each encounter at that level didn't even 'give' me experience. I was lucky in a way as the DM saw fit to play with my other wish in a way that caused my character to be out of commission for a time( male pregnancy is ackward...) and the party could catch up while I experimented with other things. Eventually the character was reintroduced and put in a scenario where the DM stripped him of his Stormtouched powers save for his Immunity to electricity and added him to the ranks of Corellan's Chosen, as the Chosen of Mystra template from forgotten Realms, alongside his wife who had been one for sometime as high priestess of a major temple to the god. Eventually the character even interchanged the Chosen template for the Saint template before acending to Godhood himself. I won't even get into the Half-Celestial/Half-Dragon something(can't remember the exact race) and the bizarre things with him while one of my PCs used it in a FR campaign. Needless to say it was almost amusing when he got splattered in one hit... by above Werewolf fumbling... Looooong story short it may be best to limit to 2 at a time, but again it's house rules.
What I don't get is why some people think that adding two "half-something" templates to one base creature would even work. One can't argue that the parents were the respective "half-somethings", as those abilities wouldn't pass on in full. For example, a half-celestial would only produce an aasimar, etc. Although this does prompts me to wonder why tieflings and aasimar were made into outright races and not templates. They would have been far more flexible as templates.
Another personal hobby-horse is the application of a "half-something " template after a creature is born. Only extremely powerful magic (deific, etc.) could get away with that. I will cut the STap some slack in this, as Demogorgon certainly counts as a powerful source of magic. (I'm referring to the Lemorian version of the half-fiend template.)
Or what about those who add the vampire template without checking if the base creature even qualifies? When reading the fine print under the Create Spawn ability, one can see that the base creature has to have at least 5 HD to have a chance of becoming a vampire. (The alternative is a pathetic spawn.)
In general, it pays to read the fine print - particularly the pre-requisites for the templates in question. It's also a good idea to check the order in which they are applied. Some templates render the creature unable to qualify for certain others.
As for my own campaigns, no one has ever tried to create a templated character. Thank goodness! Like many other posters, I see templates as being more the perogative of the DM, and the necessity for a good story/background behind any such beings in adventures (whether PC or NPC).
The Savage Progressions archive on the Wizards site breaks down many templates into their respective level adjustments. For example, half-fiend is broken down into 4 levels. That makes quarter-fiends and eighth-fiends possible. A little tougher with dragons and some of the other half creatures, but it's possible.
And keep in mind that most templates increase CR but not HD. If a creature's CR is more than twice it's HD chances are it doesn't really work. The monster's CR might be correct by RAW, but it doesn't have the hit points to support it.
Templates are just rules for getting certain abilities tacked onto creatures in a discrete, formulated method that tries to account for balance.
It really matters little what "makes sense". All you have to do is change a name to make it make better sense.
If you want to create a creature (or a PC) that has a set of abilities then the templates allow you to do so with the rules. That isn't to say that the fluff has to be followed, however.
With that in mind you, as the dm, are the final arbiter of what /abilities/ you want the PC's to have tacked onto them. Whether or not "reptilian insectoid feral half(gold)dragon were-rat tiefling" /should/ exist isn't nearly as important as whether or not you, as the DM, feel the combination of abilities is too powerful. (or too weak, in the case of low HD high ECL critters).
The logic of the "how would that creature exist" isn't nearly as important as "No, I don't want something with +43 strength at level 10, into my campaign." The fluff, afterall, is just fluff. The numbers are what tend to break campaigns.
-S