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By 5th level even my wizard can punch a spawn of Kyuss and hit it. where's the so called unkillable? I think if they appear again in the AoW they should have the evolved template from libris mortis or just give them better ac and regeneration instead of fast heal, or make the fast heal 10 or more...I mean my Pc's actually complained they were too easy to kill. after 10 sessions of hearing about these "zombies" they were terrified to go into the basement of the keep. Then they go down and despite my efforts to have the spawn flank and use hide tactics they were wiped out. 1 player did get a worm in him, 1 round from the brain untill the heal check came, but that was it. My players think the age of worms is over! They have no desire to persue it! They know the worms create the spawn so why go to Greyhawk to learn more about it? Where's the threat?
I have heard of other Kyuss related monstrobes...please say they are tougher.
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You do realize the worm attacks are a *free* action - right?
The players ought to be so distracted killing worms before they burrow they'll be lucky to be able to fight back. The Spawn have an Int of 6 - cunning enough to gang up on a PC with worm hurling. A PC at 5th level gets one attack per round. If two worms land on him at once - he is in deep doo-doo. It's a range touch to hit with a thrown worm.
That's an awful lot of panic worm squishing your PCs will have to be making - on top of fear and free action worm attacks.
Fast heal 5. Immune to crits - and your players are complaining?
If your fifth level party is carving through Spawn of Kyuss and complaining about the ease of the battle - something is wrong with the way you are running the Spawn - or equipping your party.
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I got 4 players. The mage shot missles at every worm that was hurled and the pc's ganged up on 1 spawn at a time. 3 pc's will all hit a ac 11 and at 5th level they will all do enough damage-29-before the spawn get a fast heal chance. 3 rounds with that tactic was enough-the spawn no match they are too busy using their touch attack to deliver worms, or their slam (1d6+6 scary!!) for worms, as they are each cut down in 1 round. and with all the heal wands that have been in the adventure theres some nice damage there. as far as equipment the adventure advocates letting pc's sell stuff from 3foe to upgrade their characters. and the halfling used a sling.
I was actually hoping that I ran them wrong but after a 2 hour discussion with 3 rules lawyers it is pretty clear that basic tactics will take these guys out.
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You can't hit what you can't see with a magic missile ("total concealment"). A good tactic - but still...
If you were letting the mage hit all of these tiny worms at range in a dark chaotic scream filled basement - you were being nice.
Note - a Spawn can hurl a worm and slam attack to transfer a worm in the same round according to the RAW. That's a whole lot of worms...
I got 4 players. The mage shot missles at every worm that was hurled and the pc's ganged up on 1 spawn at a time. 3 pc's will all hit a ac 11 and at 5th level they will all do enough damage-29-before the spawn get a fast heal chance. 3 rounds with that tactic was enough-the spawn no match they are too busy using their touch attack to deliver worms, or their slam (1d6+6 scary!!) for worms, as they are each cut down in 1 round. and with all the heal wands that have been in the adventure theres some nice damage there. as far as equipment the adventure advocates letting pc's sell stuff from 3foe to upgrade their characters. and the halfling used a sling.
I was actually hoping that I ran them wrong but after a 2 hour discussion with 3 rules lawyers it is pretty clear that basic tactics will take these guys out.
My solution to your players' sudden loss of excitement is classically simple:
- Up the numbers of Kyuss.
Simply add 2 more Spawn of Kyuss per encounter...and of course, don't forget any details mentioned above when running them.
- Cool idea for a trap:
Since the Spawn are just intelligent enough to do this - have them pick "extra" worms off of themselves and toss them into a small pit where they collect, living on carrion and dead flesh thrown in from "non-converts"...
When the party trips a pressure plate or trip wire, the contents of this pit are emptied into the hallway from a trap door above... Let's say, for d4+1 worms per victim in the area of effect, at a ranged touch attack +2..?
I don't know if the worms are allowed to survive outside of a spawn, but I'll look that up later.
M
Question, new to the site, but interested in the topic. What is the RAW?
Question, new to the site, but interested in the topic. What is the RAW?
Rules As Written
Ok,the only information I have on the Spawn is what's written in Monster Manual II. The rules do state that a worm transfer is a free action, but the very first statement is "Once per round, as a free action..." I've misplaced my Dungeon #125 and #126, so I couldn't double check to see if there was a rules correction for the campaign. Is there one, because that will definitely affect how I run the Spawn.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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I swapped out the Spawn's feats for the following:
1.) necrotic reserve (libris mortis) -- I was liberal with my interpretation of this feat, allowing the spawn to have a reserve if its worms had drained any INT from a victim. The tactic here is to have the spawn fall at 0 hit points, but this feat allows it to "play dead" until its fast healing takes it back to fighting shape. When a spawn you thought you killed rises up behind your party's wizard, completely unhurt... now THAT's terrifying.
2.) improved turn resistance (libris mortis) -- possibly overkill, but with the spawn's existing turn resistance, adding this feat makes the spawn very difficult to turn for low level characters (turns as 10 HD)
I also use a variable point-buy for my monsters depending on how many points the PC's have for abilities. Shuffling a couple points into strength allows the spawn to hit more often, and shuffling a couple points into charisma boosts the aura of terror.
Don't forget that the 40' radius of terror from 3 spawn is bound to send some characters fleeing in panic. This is perhaps the deadliest aspect of the spawn for a low-mid level party... It trims down the number of hard-hitters, leaving the mages and clerics vulnerable to its slams, worms and disease.
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Ok,the only information I have on the Spawn is what's written in Monster Manual II. The rules do state that a worm transfer is a free action, but the very first statement is "Once per round, as a free action..." I've misplaced my Dungeon #125 and #126, so I couldn't double check to see if there was a rules correction for the campaign. Is there one, because that will definitely affect how I run the Spawn.
The errata from the conversion to 3.5 for Monster Manual II for the Spawn of Kyuss reads as follows:
"Spawn of Kyuss: Undead; 5 ft./5 ft.; Hide +5, Jump +7, Move Silently +5, Spot +3; Stealthy, Toughness; LA +5."
No changes to worm transfer noted. You are right - it's throw or slam to transfer - not both. We can get picky over the free action element of it I suppose.
No changes to worm transfer noted. You are right - it's throw or slam to transfer - not both. We can get picky over the free action element of it I suppose.
The free action element simply means if the spawn chooses to use its slam attack and hits, it can still infect its victim with a worm on the same turn (as a free action). So it either throws a worm (standard) or slams (standard) and infects (free) or melee touches with a worm (standard). Either way, it's one worm per round. Which is still pretty nasty. Because I would rule if a worm is on a victim, any damage to the worm affects the victim as well. Meanwhile, the creatures have a fear aura, sending many 5th-level characters with low Will saves (such as the fighters) fleeing at top speed away while their companions have to take on the spawn. Fast healing 5 explains the "unkillable" rumour. Most low-level characters would never be able to kill one of these. Even with all of these abilities one spawn of Kyuss would be a pushover for 5th-level characters. The three, however, that wander the basement at the end of the adventure should be an adequate challenge for a (probably now 6th-level) party, as potentially 3 PCs are being infected by worms each round.
The main weakness I see the spawn having is turning. With only 4 HD and turn resistance, a 6th-level cleric will succeed on turning at least half the time. Of course, remove curse and remove disease are also weaknesses but most parties won't know this (or won't be prepared for it). The exception would be if someone has a very high Knowledge (religion). The check to identify the spawn is DC 14. I would make curative transformation the last bit of information doled out on a good roll, and since there are so many tidbits of information to know about these things the DC would probably be in the 30s. Even then the PCs would have to prepare those spells. Curative transformation is a huge weakness, however, and anyone who tries these spells should be rewarded (assuming they didn't just read the MMII).
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I don't know if the worms are allowed to survive outside of a spawn, but I'll look that up later.
They survive one round if i remember correctly (except for the slow worms).
I don't think they can survive in carcass etc. for that long...If the DM makes use of the fear-effect and the worms each round, i won't consider this encounter too easy.
And remember, somewhere it was mentioned (i can't recall where, maybe in a thread on here or in the mag), that there'll be far more challenging version of the worms in future issues.
And i don't even mention the giant-version the characters will encounter (if they survive that long...)
Hehehe...
I hadn't looked over the stats in a while, but 11 AC is easy to fix- "natural armor bonus". We have running jokes about natural armor bonuses in my group, since they often seem to be the designers' solution for high AC when they can't think of anything else, whether it makes a lot of initial sense or not (with a little thought, one can usually find a way to justify it, but sometimes the bonus just seems flat-out wrong for the creature description).
like the other guy my partner wizard just targeted them with magic missles and splat thats all she wrote. sense mm has no miss chance and doesn't damage anything but what there aimed at no damage to person there on.
In my campaign if a worm on a PC is targeted with a magic missile, the PC is taking damage as well. There's no way if I nuke a fly on your arm that you ain't feeling some of that pain too.
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I think I will require a very serious "spot" roll to allow a worm to be seen on another party member in order to be targeted by a Wizard in a chaotic fight in a dark (and yes, dank) dungeon.
These things are tiny green *worms*. They are not orcs. The concept that each of these tiny lil things can be seen in a physical fight as they land on several characters in the space of 6 seconds (less really) and then can all be targeted by multiple missiles is an assumption that extends well past reality and strays into metagaming.
Magic Missile is a great tactic vs worms - but it assumes that you can see them. That's not an assumption I am prepared to make in these circumstances.
I have to agree with those people who make the point that the worms would be very difficult to spot in a normal chaotic combat (remember that apart from the dark conditions the worms are fine creatures). Those DMs who allowed their players to target the worms with magic missiles without Spot checks made a boo-boo!
The fear aura should have taken out some of the PCs. If there are three spawn thats three separate saves per PC! If you ran the encounter properly at least one PC should have failed a save (unless they were all very lucky).
Ganging up on individual spawn sounds like a good idea, but what were the rest of the spawn doing? Watching with jaws agape. Why weren't the spawn flanking the PCs back?
A few people have mentioned ways of making the spawn deadlier. Here's a few more ideas:
1) Damage reduction. Since they are a lot like zombies give them damage reduction 5/slashing or even 5/silver.
2) Unholy toughness and Unholy grace. Unholy toughness gives the spawn bonus hit points equal to their hit dice multiplied by their Charisma modifier, while unholy grace gives them a deflection bonus to AC equal to their Charisma modifier and a bonus to their saves equal to their Charisma modifier.
3) Replace weapon Focus slam with a more undead appropriate feat like Improved Turn Resistance or something similar.
4) Improve their ability scores (particularly Dex) or give them a natural armor bonus.
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Hmm, i wouldn't add Unholy Grace to the spawns or improve their DEX-score. They are zombie-like creatures after all, hmm?
I'm thinking about creating a spawn myself and basing it on the ghoul, not the zombie.
Hasn't there been mentioning of the spawn as template-creatures?
This would give DMs a far wider variety of possible worm-encounters.
in regards to magic missle doing damage to charactors the worm is on, in the spell descrip it says the missle can only strike one creature.
What QBert said already. The worm will get annihilated by a tiny fraction of the d4+1 damage, so where does the rest of it go? Or from another viewpoint: the worm gets smeared into paste by a fraction of the force used by the missile, so the rest of it crashes on through to the arm underneath.
in regards to magic missle doing damage to charactors the worm is on, in the spell descrip it says the missle can only strike one creature.What QBert said already. The worm will get annihilated by a tiny fraction of the d4+1 damage, so where does the rest of it go? Or from another viewpoint: the worm gets smeared into paste by a fraction of the force used by the missile, so the rest of it crashes on through to the arm underneath.
Magic missile doesn't in any way or form crashes through a destroyed target and hurt a pc. It just destroys / hurts the target and that is it.
attacking worms with magic missile: only if the spellcaster could see the worms would I allow them to target the worms. And in near dark that would be a tough spot check.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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in regards to magic missle doing damage to charactors the worm is on, in the spell descrip it says the missle can only strike one creature.What QBert said already. The worm will get annihilated by a tiny fraction of the d4+1 damage, so where does the rest of it go? Or from another viewpoint: the worm gets smeared into paste by a fraction of the force used by the missile, so the rest of it crashes on through to the arm underneath.Magic missile doesn't in any way or form crashes through a destroyed target and hurt a pc. It just destroys / hurts the target and that is it.
attacking worms with magic missile: only if the spellcaster could see the worms would I allow them to target the worms. And in near dark that would be a tough spot check.
I think this is true. Magic Missile isn't going to hit anything other than the target... if the caster can see it. That's the crux of this issue. I'm thinking about it like this:
The worm gets transferred to the host and is begins to burrow through flesh next round. I think it gets a hide check:
- Fine Vermin: +16 hide check.
- "climbing" on host: no dex bonus. (not that we have a dex bonus to use, this just makes it easier.)
- wriggling about but not actually moving: no penalty to hide.
Now, I'd also give a +2 to +4 bonus if the host is wearing bulky armor, robes, or thick clothes. (plenty of grooves and flaps to hide in.)
so the worm gets at LEAST a +16 to hide. To make things simple, let's just say it takes 10 on its check. This sets the spot DC at 26.
That's not an easy spot check for a 6th level mage to make, even if he's an elf with an owl familiar.
When you start adding penalties for darkness, distraction, distance, and so on... I think picking off worms with magic missile this way is pretty fair.
Plus, if the mage is using magic missile against individual worms, he's not using spells on a spawn itself.
Aren't/weren't the people turned into spawn wearing armor when they got turned? If you are concerned about the AC, just let the spawn still be wearing the armor. Chain mail IIRC. I don't think the two newer spawn would have remover their armor, while the older spawn's armor might have fallen off over the time it was in the basement.
ASEO out
1) Although my initial reaction was to agree that magic missile would damage the person beneath the worm, the section of the spell description that states that magic missile does no damage to inanimate objects changed my mind. Clearly, magic missile does not send flying pieces of Force at a target (this is how I always imagined it), because it seems that would affect brick as well as flesh. Rather, Magic Missile must be a purely magical "damage source" that only affects the living target of the spell (which leads me to wonder whether it should affect undead at all). This suggests that there is no "flight path" for the spell, and it should be visualized as simply searing pain, or something, in the target. Anyway, I'm getting off track.
2) As for spotting the worms, I find it hard to believe that the worms are TRYING to hide from anyone. I would use the +16 DC modifier for a Fine creature but assume that the base DC is 0. Thus, the DC becomes 16 + any modifiers for darkness, distance, etc. Still not a gimme.
o
the old spawn was a wizard not a warrior, but the two more recent spawn would still be wearing their armor (making their AC 16).
I'd say that magic missiles would not damage anyone but their intended target. The +16 Hide modifier is about right, probably with an extra +2 to +4 for human PCs without low-light vision or darkvision.
Another way you could make the spawn tough would be to increase the HD of the spawn or give them spell resistance.
The spawn are not really that terrible as monsters. That's why DUNGEON is coming up with some tougher versions for later adventures. If fact they will probably use that Spawn of Kyuss template that appeared in DRAGON (now what was that issue?)
Suggestions regarding damaging worms with Magic Missle:
- Treat it like a grapple: 25% chance to hit your friend. "Sorry, I thought I was aiming at a worm, but it was your shoelace!" Or backpack strap, or belt, or ridge of your armor...
- They might also have TOTAL CONCEALMENT depending on where the PC's are facing. If the wizard is BEHIND a fighter lobbing spells and the worm is on the fighter's chest, there is NO WAY that the wizard can target the worm because she can't SEE the worm. No line of sight means the spell cannot be cast. If it's on the fighter's arm there might be a miss chance due to concealment and the fighter flailing around to swing his sword or remove the worm.
- To add that wonderful element of suspense have the wizard make a Concentration check to simulate aiming. Or have her ready an action to cast as soon as she sees a worm on her friend. This would require a Spot check against the +16 Fine size Hide bonus...
Sorry, but no.
The beauty of magic missile is that if you can see a target, you can kill it (as long as it's not an object).
All the above are just ways to undermine a perfect PC strategy, you don't hurt a PC when he thinks of something, you should encourage it.
furthermore, in my opinion the correct use of magic missile in combination with a spawn of kyuss is ofcourse blasting the spawn again and again with your magic missile. preferably from a distance.
Just this sunday my sorcerer was standing atop a mausoleum, dodging worms (dm threw poorly) blasting the spawn again and again with magic missiles and a few crossbow bolts. yup that ac 11 isn't helping the spawn, the fast heal 5 however is helping it.
I've got no problem with a player trying to shoot the worms off a dog's back at 100 paces, Darkjoy.
I just think that it would be hard to do because you might not be able to Spot them.
Perhaps the fighter (from my earlier post) can turn around as a move equivalent action (that draws attacks of opportunity from the three spawn he's facing) in order for the wizard to see the worms crawling upon his chest.
Or the wizard can also maneuver herself into a better position to see the worms.
I would think a spot/search check versus the worm's hide check + any range increments would do the trick. 'Magic Missile' can hit what you can see. No problem there. But what can you see? And once the worm in under the skin, Magic missile should not work because you can not see it although you may see a lump it causes.
So the way I see the encounter with the 3 Sons. Two have on Chain mail armor for an increased AC of 16.
Spot checks vs. worms’ hide checks to target worms on allies with any spell, although ‘Magic Missile’ may be the best choice.
A DM could rule that any damage caused by a ‘Magic Missile’ that is over kill to the damage necessary to kill the worm negatively impact the PC that the worm was blasted off of
ASEO out
To give the wizard spawn a little more flavor and potency, perhaps it could be given the Spellstitched template from Complete Arcane?
To give the wizard spawn a little more flavor and potency, perhaps it could be given the Spellstitched template from Complete Arcane?
hmm, but how would it gain that template? Based upon the MM2 which also had this template a spellcaster could scribe the spells onto an undead, or an undead spellcaster could scribe spells onto itself, but how would the spawn (former wizard) gain the spells while it was locked up? and it is not smart enough to scribe spells onto itself (int 6?)
To give the wizard spawn a little more flavor and potency, perhaps it could be given the Spellstitched template from Complete Arcane?hmm, but how would it gain that template? Based upon the MM2 which also had this template a spellcaster could scribe the spells onto an undead, or an undead spellcaster could scribe spells onto itself, but how would the spawn (former wizard) gain the spells while it was locked up? and it is not smart enough to scribe spells onto itself (int 6?)
Not that I think this is a great idea to further boost the Wizard spawn, but what if the Wizard had some/all her spells tattooed onto her body so that she would never be without a spellbook...and then turned into a Son of Kyuss.
Just a thought, but I think with the two other Spawns in armor, the encounter will not need further pumping up.
ASEO out
I wasn't really worried with how the spawn got the template- just trying to provide more challenge and flavor for it since everyone seems to think they're too weak. I think my party is in for some real trouble when it comes to that time- our only spellcasters are a hexblade and a ranger, and no one has Heal as a skill. That, and they're will saves aren't great, either, so at least two of them are likely to go running in a panic. That's provided one or more of them hasn't succumb to a slow worm yet, which knowing my party, they'd never question the safety of a potion, especially a cure potion. They're as good as dead.
By the way, you can't give the spawn regeneration instead of fast healing; regen makes all damage the creature takes (with the exception of the damage it's especially vulnerable to) nonlethal damage, and undead are immune to nonlethal damage, so....
By the way, you can't give the spawn regeneration instead of fast healing; regen makes all damage the creature takes (with the exception of the damage it's especially vulnerable to) nonlethal damage, and undead are immune to nonlethal damage, so....
There is a real need for a better "official" mechanic for this. There is obviously a desire for something like "unkillable undead" (meaning "unkillable without doing something special"). Something that heals at the Fast Healing rate but can only be permanently dealt with by doing damage it is vulnerable to hits the spot exactly.
MI
Creative Director
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One thing to keep in mind is the source of the word "unkillable undead." Peasants and commoners vs. a spawn of Kyuss is pretty rough. Fast healing 5 is more than enough to keep up with a bunch of rubes armed with flower pots and rickety pitchforks with missing tines.
In any event, I can say for certain that the spawn of Kyuss are the bottom rung of the creatures that serve Kyuss. The PCs will be encountering all sorts of tougher Kyuss minions as the adventure path goes on.