Dragon has been skimping on prestige classes, what's up with this? I kinda was expecting to see at least one or two each month, but sometimes there's none at all.
Speaking of prestige classes, if a hoard of them are due out soon, I have a thread on article requests boards.
Dragon has been skimping on prestige classes, what's up with this? I kinda was expecting to see at least one or two each month, but sometimes there's none at all.
I don't miss them at all. PrC's are great, when you have a compelling story device, like an organization or group, to back them up. However, just having a PrC, for the sake of having them doesn't make any sense. They really aren't kits like in 2E, but are meant to help the DM help add flavor to his campaign. A few examples now and then are helpful, and inspiring, but the guys are DRAGON would be hard pressed to anticipate the worlds we all play in to the extent that they would be able to consistently make quality PrCs for us to use. IMHO, they do a great job with the core fantasy structure D&D is based around, but after the core is complete, it gets harder and harder to expand outward.
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I don't see the need to see that many PrC's published. There are so many of them in all the d20-books and a ton of them appeared in Dragon throughout the last years. I'm sure there are hundreds out there by now.. They shouldn't publish them for the sake of it alone. I'm sure that they'll feature one, if they receive a good one. I'm sure they'll continue doing PrC's when the theme of an article suits it, like it's the case with the Demonomicon-articles, that both featured very cool PrC's.
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Personnally, I think this is a welcome break from the endless development of new PrCs. For a while there, it seemed that everytime I turned around there was a product or article with new one. By taking a break, they can further ensure that when they do write up a new PrC it won't be something lame or repetitive, as I believe some of them have been.
There's a thought. Anyone out there want to provide a list of their least favorite PrCs.
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However, just having a PrC, for the sake of having them doesn't make any sense.
This is pretty much our feelings, exactly. There are already hundreds and hundreds of prestige classes out there, so we don't really feel the need to put out more generic ones in a vaccuum. In the April issue we provided the Jester because, you know, it was April. A couple issues ago we put in the charlatan because it was the winner of the Origins/Dragon Prestige Class Contest. For the most part, though, we prefer to include prestige classes as part of a larger article, such as with the Demonomicon.
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Just wanted to go on record saying I support your policy 100% Mike.
In fact, I'd support it more, but I can't figure out how it is mathematically possible. If you can help me with that, I'd certainly appreciate it. My boss is always looking for 110%, and I don't know where to get it without stealing someone else's.
Yeah, but behind that policy as much as is humanly possible.
I'd just like to add my support for the current policy regarding prestige classes in Dragon, following the overkill of previous years.
For the most part, though, we prefer to include prestige classes as part of a larger article, such as with the Demonomicon.
What's the average word count for the new PrC format? As I recall the old ones varied from around 1200-1500 (5 levels) to 2000+ (10 levels). There's a lot more stuff with the new format so I'm curious if anyone has done any kind of sample.
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What's the average word count for the new PrC format? As I recall the old ones varied from around 1200-1500 (5 levels) to 2000+ (10 levels). There's a lot more stuff with the new format so I'm curious if anyone has done any kind of sample.
If we go all out and do the new format exactly as Wizards of the Coast would have us it's 4,000 words. That's roughly 4-6 pages (depending on layout). For a prestige class. Oi!
Yeah - don't get me started on the new format. I might say things that were unprofessional. ;)
I'd personally like to go on record as saying that though I do like Prestige classes there doesn't really seem to be any out there that seem truly keep up with what the base classes afford a character. Now don't get me wrong there are quite a few worthwhile ones, my personal favorites are the Dwarven Defender and Hammer of Moradin, just something about battling dwarves kicks ass. Espically if you think of a few Hammers standing side to side with the defenders. *shivers* Bloody Goblin goodness. I don't know. I think I'd be a LOT happier if they turned some prestiege classes into full blown 20 Level classes. Cause let's face it how often do games last that you 1) get to the level to play a prestiege class and 2) how long do games normally run AFTER you get the class. I don't know about you but a LOT of games I've been in end around 9th... maybe 10th level when the DM's hit the "what-to-do-next wall." Things like that make me wanna see 20 levels of something like Kabuki Dancer for an Oriental style character or the Chronomancer for Greyhawk / Forgotten Realms style games. Just my two cents worth.
-Jason
If we go all out and do the new format exactly as Wizards of the Coast would have us it's 4,000 words. That's roughly 4-6 pages (depending on layout). For a prestige class. Oi!
Are you required to use the new format?
Can't you develop one that better fits the format of a monthly magazine, rather than use one developed especially for $35 hardback sourcebooks?
Isn't whether the prestige class concept fits within the Core D&D worlds of Greyhawk, Realms or Eberron a bigger determining factor than the fomat it is presented in?
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I could imagine that Paizo has to use the new PrC format to prevent confusion, as its the case with the new stat block.
The new format of PrC's will probably lead to a near lack of PrC's in the magazine in the future.
I wouldn't want to see a PrC in every issue, but i fear that they'll also cut on PrC's like the ones from the Demonomicon-articles because these would make an already lenghty article much longer.
I hope they don't cut on the background-informations of said articles just to publish a PrC.
I don't see more PrC as a bad thing at all. Obviously, everyone keeps jumping on the fact that there is too many when there are those like me that feel there isn't enough.
Prestige classes, at least in my games, help fill niches that a player/NPC/creature etc. could've been, could've had or could've been cool if it had it. (In fact, I feel this way about all crunch material).
For example, a prestige class based off of a monk with the abilities of lightning and thunder? Have we seen one? No. Do I have a player that wished one was created and released WotC 100% official? Yes. Will I find use of it outside of it being player options. Of course! I can base a monastery, a few notable NPCs, or whatever!
I think people that complain about the multitude of PrC are the ones that either don't want to deal with or can't figure a creative way of using them.
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I think people that complain about the multitude of PrC are the ones that either don't want to deal with or can't figure a creative way of using them.
Well, i wouldn't call it complaining.
There were so many PrC's within the last years in nearly every d20-Book (and in Dragon, too).I think many people find this overflow a little boring lately and would like to see more unusual content rather than another PrC.
Sure, there are still niches to fill, but i think with all these different PrC's you'll always find one that can be modified to suit your needs, whatever you are looking for...
I just received my issue of Dragon #335 and I went to read the Charlatan prestige class and my eyes began bleeding...
Did Dragon really have to turn to the way of the "fluffy duffy" prestige class? I looked forward to the hope that Dragon wouldn't get suckered into that new format that half the gamers either hate or see half of it as useless.
Woe to wasted pages in both WotC D&D products and Dragon. :(
I agree, more PrC's, can never have enough PrC's, Feats, Skill uses, or Core Classes. There is always a little something new or different in each and one can easily adapt for flavor IMO.
Perhaps we just have a number of niche players, many of our builds have had trouble finding a PrC to fit into or that complimented the build aptly.
I agree. What happened to the Gaining Prestige artuicles? and what abvout Winning Races? i liked those both!
I do. blackguard, arcane archer, all those monk and crusader ones, all those divine ones...in fact, i hate all of em except the roguish ones, and the arcane ones(not wizzy ones, though. i hate wizzies).
WARNING: Sacrilege ahead!
Why can't we just have one class, and all class features can be feat chains? There would be no more need for prestige classes. That's my head-in-the-clouds request for Version 4.0, a request that will never be fulfilled, but I dream of the day.
THe initial goal of a prestige class was to denote important organizations, cultures, and occasionally unique playing styles. There have been a number of successes: Most of the "dual classes" prcs (Arcane trickster ect.), a few mechanical ones (exotic weapon master, bear warrior), and a few cultural ones (Halfling outrider, knight phantom). Most of the rest just take up pages. A LOT of pages.
I like them when they *are* innovative mechanical devices to make new and interesting characters (very rare), and I like them when they are great for creating NPCs and PCs for specific themes (see Demonicon prcs). That aside, the only place I'd really like to see a PRC is possibly in the class acts.
That aside, the only place I'd really like to see a PRC is possibly in the class acts.
There's not enough room in a Class Acts article - even if you strip out all the useless fluff WotC puts in prestige classes these days.
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I agree. What happened to the Gaining Prestige artuicles? and what abvout Winning Races? i liked those both!
Gaining Prestige and Winning Races were relatively unpopular, both with readers and with the editorial staff. Don't we have enough prestige classes by now?
Why can't we just have one class, and all class features can be feat chains? There would be no more need for prestige classes. That's my head-in-the-clouds request for Version 4.0, a request that will never be fulfilled, but I dream of the day.
That's my pie-in-the-sky hope as well. Or maybe four classes (adventurer, arcane, divine, warrior) with a selection of feat chains and ability suites. Just not sucky versions like in UA. ;D
THe initial goal of a prestige class was to denote important organizations, cultures, and occasionally unique playing styles. There have been a number of successes: Most of the "dual classes" prcs (Arcane trickster ect.), a few mechanical ones (exotic weapon master, bear warrior), and a few cultural ones (Halfling outrider, knight phantom). Most of the rest just take up pages. A LOT of pages.
This is EXACTLY my sentiment. I fall very squarely in the "multiclassing is good" camp, so to me prestige classes and feats should exist to help facilitate multiclassing. I should here further denote my bias that for the most part, I hate prestige classes. It's a good idea gone horribly, horribly wrong. (See above the reference to "editors don't like them.") ;)
That aside, the only place I'd really like to see a PRC is possibly in the class acts.
*deep breath* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! ;D
There's not enough room in a Class Acts article - even if you strip out all the useless fluff WotC puts in prestige classes these days.
What Zherog said. Also: Eww! Not on my watch, Mister! ;P
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Lord Vader? Is that you? :P
Gaining Prestige and Winning Races were relatively unpopular, both with readers and with the editorial staff. Don't we have enough prestige classes by now?
This is EXACTLY my sentiment. I fall very squarely in the "multiclassing is good" camp, so to me prestige classes and feats should exist to help facilitate multiclassing. I should here further denote my bias that for the most part, I hate prestige classes. It's a good idea gone horribly, horribly wrong. (See above the reference to "editors don't like them.") ;)
I don't understand.
Saying there's already enough prestige classes is like saying "Don't bother publishing any more PrC, spells, feats, new classes, magic items, psionic powers, and equipment. Because there's already enough so let's just write pure fluff magazines from now on."
As I have stated before, a new PrC means at least one more happy player out there. The same goes for feats and other crunch material.
---I wouldn't have a happy Soulknife player without the Illumine Soul from "Complete Psionic"
---I wouldn't have a happy Paladin player without the Cavalier from "Complete Warrior".
---I wouldn't have a happy Monk player without the Acolyte of the Fist from "Dragon Magazine #296".
---I wouldn't have a happy Psychic Warrior player without the Ancestral Avenger from "Dragon Magazine #279"
---I wouldn't have a happy Barbarian player without the Firestorm Berserker from "Dragon Magazine #314"
And you get my point, I'm sure. By saying no to PrC, you're in denial of the fact that, whether you like PrC or not, there are a ton of people, DM and players alike, that have use for that stuff (and sometimes don't even realize it at first). I thought Dragon Magazine was to offer DMs and players alike tools for their games? I am quite sure Races and Prestige Classes fall under those categories.
The truth is that PrC being published by Dragon Magazine stopped because of the new format. Otherwise, I am quite sure we'd see a ton of them in Dragon Magazine by now.
The real question is does your staff HAVE to use the new format? Are you under contract by WotC to write those PrC with the new format? Were arguments made by Paizo in defense of the magazine staying with the old format in preference over the new?
Otherwise, I think if you're going to stop publishing PrC entirely for good, you should think the same for alternate class features, feats, spells, magic items, etc.
After all, there's already enough out there, right? :|
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The truth is that PrC being published by Dragon Magazine stopped because of the new format. Otherwise, I am quite sure we'd see a ton of them.
Razz, my friend, the truth is not that simple. :) There are several reasons why we stopped running Gaining Prestige. In no particular order, they go something like this:
• The long format. This was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. And no, we don't have to use the new format if the prestige class is part of a longer article, but we do if it stands alone.
• Lack of good submissions. Everyone can write a prestige class, but it's hard to write a good one.
• Editorial fiat. Most of us are not fans of random prestige classes.
• Unhappy readers. For every reader who begged for more prestige classes we heard from three to five begging for no more. While Dragon is far from a democracy (see previous point) we do actually try to keep a pulse on the will of our readers. :)
• De-compartmentalization. Issue #323 was divided into so many departments the magazine felt like a fragmented conglomerate. In our effort to thin out the number of departments, we had to start making cuts somewhere. Gaining Prestige was one of the ones we cut.
Our reasons for cutting Winning Races are legion, but the above list suffices for that department as well.
*sigh*
Well, at least WotC churns them out...not as much as they used to but they're still out there.
Though, I am sure you guys get submissions of PrC from professional writers from either your own staff, Dungeon's, and WotC staff or former WotC staff? Could've taken submissions from them, unless they quit too.
But, yeah, PrC will be a dream long remembered in Dragon. Maybe when people really start missing PrC we'll see a return or something...
But you better finish up those Modrons at least! Then you won't have to worry about them until 4E :D
Why can't we just have one class, and all class features can be feat chains? There would be no more need for prestige classes. That's my head-in-the-clouds request for Version 4.0, a request that will never be fulfilled, but I dream of the day.That's my pie-in-the-sky hope as well. Or maybe four classes (adventurer, arcane, divine, warrior) with a selection of feat chains and ability suites. Just not sucky versions like in UA. ;D
Heh. Glad I'm not the only one. For years I played a fusion of Victory Games (skill-based) 007 rules, 1e, and 3e. I play 3.5 now only becuse I discovered the excellence of Dungeon (as soon as Wormcrawl Fissure appeared in our group, all characters were immediately converted over), and because it's VERY hard to remain part of the gaming community if you embrace heretical rules. But, darnit, it was FUN being able to, in essence, duplicate or create any desired "prestige class" or "variant class feature" without needing a separate article or set of rules to do it! But, for the record, I would renounce my heretical dreams if their realization would negatively impact sales at Paizo.
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Well, at least WotC churns them out...not as much as they used to but they're still out there.
I think Wizards of the Coast is starting to feel the same way as us... but who really knows what they're planning? :D
Though, I am sure you guys get submissions of PrC from professional writers from either your own staff, Dungeon's, and WotC staff or former WotC staff?
Not a one. Nobody from Paizo or Wizards of the Coast has ever queried us to write a prestige class. You'll note that pretty much the only prestige classes we run these days appear in Demonomicons, and on occasion Mr. Jacobs seems none too pleased to have to write them. ;D
But, yeah, PrC will be a dream long remembered in Dragon. Maybe when people really start missing PrC we'll see a return or something...
Maybe. Unfortunately for your dream, this thread represents the entirety of the "give us more prestige classes" community. Although now that I've said that I expect to see a sudden grass-roots effort showing up in Scalemail emails. ;)
But you better finish up those Modrons at least! Then you won't have to worry about them until 4E :D
Now this is definitely something I can get behind! :D
But you better finish up those Modrons at least! Then you won't have to worry about them until 4E :DNow this is definitely something I can get behind! :D
Yeah cause...I'll cry if we don't receive the Modron race as a whole :'( See if you guys can do a special #354 WE or something.
My Modron Campaign has been in long in the waiting...and my players least suspect it, heh heh.
About the only ones I would clamor for would be more of Tom Costra's 3.5 version PrCs for 2nd edition Forgotten Realms specialty priests, which I would assume would fall under the Volo's Guide section of the magazine. Other than than, I'm good with the thankfully fewer number of them that seem to be coming down the pike from WOTC these days.
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Not a one. Nobody from Paizo or Wizards of the Coast has ever queried us to write a prestige class. You'll note that pretty much the only prestige classes we run these days appear in Demonomicons, and on occasion Mr. Jacobs seems none too pleased to have to write them. ;D
So I s'pose all those PrC's like the Acolyte of the Fist, Flame Steward, Nightsong Enforcer, et al. published under Class Acts back in the day wrote themselves? And signed Monte Cook's name? (ok, by that time he was a -former- WotC staffer, but come on...) I think the distinction that needs to be made is good PrC's vs. bad ones. Those referenced above are the kind of thing I'd like to see more of in Dragon. Mechanically sound and stuffed with flavor. Each one can (and has) provided sessions worth of fodder for a campaign, as well as fun alternatives for PCs.
Not a one. Nobody from Paizo or Wizards of the Coast has ever queried us to write a prestige class. You'll note that pretty much the only prestige classes we run these days appear in Demonomicons, and on occasion Mr. Jacobs seems none too pleased to have to write them. ;DSo I s'pose all those PrC's like the Acolyte of the Fist, Flame Steward, Nightsong Enforcer, et al. published under Class Acts back in the day wrote themselves? And signed Monte Cook's name? (ok, by that time he was a -former- WotC staffer, but come on...) I think the distinction that needs to be made is good PrC's vs. bad ones. Those referenced above are the kind of thing I'd like to see more of in Dragon. Mechanically sound and stuffed with flavor. Each one can (and has) provided sessions worth of fodder for a campaign, as well as fun alternatives for PCs.
Yeah I really can't think of any of PrC published by Dragon Magazine that sucked, flavor-wise. I'm sure there were some, but a lot of them were either good or top quality (like the Infused and the Tainted), including the ones you mentioned.
Heck, several made it into WotC books so they all couldn't be that bad.
The answer to prestige classes:
Alternative class features.
The answer to prestige classes:
Alternative class features.
I personally believe Alternate Class Features are a good thing for now, but they're going to get way out of hand. Even worse than PrC (as other people claim) are now.
Because it's simpler with PrC. For example, "I'm an Elven Fighter/Bladesinger". Most people who're familiar with the prestige class will know what abilities it has and it'll always be that way.
Now with alternate class features: "I'm a Fighter with the alternate class feature for 1st level from Dragon issue #XXX, my 3rd level alternate feature is from Dragon Magic, my 7th and 12th level alternate features are from Magic of Incarnum and blah blah"
"Yeah, I have a Fighter too, but he's got alternate class feature XXX from Complete Mage at 6th level, and at 10th level he has alternate class feature XXX from Dragon Magazine issue #XXX"
Now deal with this but everyone's character class has alternate features from all over the place. A headache it is.
It's going to get out of hand and I really would like to see Class Acts do more feats and less alternate class features. At least feats are the easiest to handle.
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So I s'pose all those PrC's like the Acolyte of the Fist, Flame Steward, Nightsong Enforcer, et al. published under Class Acts back in the day wrote themselves?
If you're going to be sarcastic, at least be right. I didn't bring up the former iteration of Class Acts because that's not what we're talking about. I didn't say no one from Paizo or Wizards of the Coast ever wrote prestige classes for us, because that's obviously not true. Don't put words into my mouth.
What I said, and what I will now repeat, is, "Nobody from Paizo or Wizards of the Coast has ever queried us to write a prestige class."
Monte didn't query his submissions, he wrote what he wanted to write and we printed them. That lasted until he got tired of writing new prestige classes. We printed exactly one prestige class written by Mr. Cook after we made the switch to calling the department Gaining Prestige, and that prestige class he wrote at least a year before it saw print. And he never queried it.
I personally believe Alternate Class Features are a good thing for now, but they're going to get way out of hand. Even worse than PrC (as other people claim) are now.
Don't worry. I love alternative class features, as you can probably tell, but even I have my limit. And I've pretty much reached that limit for now. I will continue to run alt.class feature articles in the future, but at a much-reduced rate.
Now with alternate class features: "I'm a Fighter with the alternate class feature for 1st level from Dragon issue #XXX, my 3rd level alternate feature is from Dragon Magic, my 7th and 12th level alternate features are from Magic of Incarnum and blah blah"
Why not just say, "I'm a fighter?"
It's going to get out of hand and I really would like to see Class Acts do more feats and less alternate class features. At least feats are the easiest to handle.
It won't get out of hand. At least not because of Class Acts. :) And don't worry, I am committed to supporting feats in Class Acts. Like you, I love 'em. I think you and I agree on most things, in fact, with just a few little sticklers (like prestige classes) that give us something to talk about. :)
Although I enjoyed a few of the prestige classes Dragon put out (Nightsong), most were a flash in the pan and I'm not sorry to see them go, especially since they're being replaced by articles far more interesting (the new planar stuff, frex). I'm behind the new policy 100%.
Now with alternate class features: "I'm a Fighter with the alternate class feature for 1st level from Dragon issue #XXX, my 3rd level alternate feature is from Dragon Magic, my 7th and 12th level alternate features are from Magic of Incarnum and blah blah"
That's my ideal future D&D, where prestige classes are replaced by alternate class features, and eventually classes can be morphed into each other by using alternate class features... until there are no more classes. Just your ideas for a character and a wealth of balanced options to implement them.
It won't get out of hand. At least not because of Class Acts. :) And don't worry, I am committed to supporting feats in Class Acts. Like you, I love 'em. I think you and I agree on most things, in fact, with just a few little sticklers (like prestige classes) that give us something to talk about. :)
Yeah, like Ninjas! :D
Yeah, like Ninjas! :DNINJAS!!! :D
OMG Razz, if you like ninjas, make sure to check out the Adventurer CA in #354. The article is awesome and the artwork... superb! :)
Alright, another Ninja article! Yes! The last three were superb, new feats on two and one on a dwarven clan of them with new equipment and weapons. Can't wait to see this one! :D
Now deal with this but everyone's character class has alternate features from all over the place. A headache it is.
The simple solution to this is to have your players type up reference sheets with all the relevant information and sources of the variants they're using. Then have them print off a second copy so that you — the DM — also have that information.
My players, when possible, even go as far as copy and paste a class entry from the SRD into a Word document, then make their changes in that document. That way, they don't need books at all — the progression table and feature descriptions are in one place for easy reference.
As far as the feats vs. variants argument goes, my preference is for more variants. Anything that makes classes less one dimensional is always a positive to me. But, in truth, feats and class features are interchangable, so whichever way the articles go, I can always convert the information to my needs.
I'm a fan of variant class abilities. Sometimes you can be a different kind of cleric without defining your character as something other than a cleric.