Age of Worms Overload


Age of Worms Adventure Path

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Dryder wrote:
LeapingShark wrote:

316 pages; including

- 32 pages of new art by Todd Lockwood
- complete floorplans for each and every building of Diamond Lake
- a 64 page sidequest adventure called "That Which Lurks Below the Lake"

Err... are you just kidding, or do I have to simply fall of my chair right now if this is true?!

Where do you get this info from???

Sounds like a wishlist to me. I'll break the suspense... not true.

: )
Rob

Liberty's Edge

Ahh, S*#iö! ;)
Would have been too good!
Well, at least I will now find some sleep tonight. Otherwise I would have been awake the whole night waiting for this stuff and thinking about how on earth to cope with all those infos ;)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like the fact that the ETA is "sometime this week." This way, Paizo doesn't have to update it if they need to push it back another week or more :-)

Dark Archive

Byron Zibeck wrote:
I like the fact that the ETA is "sometime this week." This way, Paizo doesn't have to update it if they need to push it back another week or more :-)

Heh heh, your words are strangely prophetic...

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

When I get a solid day, I will let you guys know. Until then, it is "as soon as possible, hopefully by the end of the week."

--Erik

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

LeapingShark wrote:

316 pages; including

- 32 pages of new art by Todd Lockwood
- complete floorplans for each and every building of Diamond Lake
- a 64 page sidequest adventure called "That Which Lurks Below the Lake"

Yeah, and I hear the next print issue includes a 1:1 scale map of the mines.

(Wait 'till you try to fold it back up!)

-Vic.
.


Erik Mona wrote:
When I get a solid day, I will let you guys know. Until then, it is "as soon as possible, hopefully by the end of the week."

In what might be an unpopular sentiment on this board, please, PLEASE, PLEASE take your time!! I'd rather have "behind-schedule" quality than crap delivered on time.

Myself, I'm more interested in story than stats, and I remember you saying earlier that one of the things holding you up is a plot summary of the whole AP. That is far more important for me (as a narrative-intensive GM) than whether Smenk is a +8 or +11 at Open Lock.

But then again, it's all about my needs and wants, right? ;-)

One quick question, though: have you already gotten all of Keith Baker's input for Eberron-adaptation or are you getting that as you go along? Just curious as to how the process works (and I loves me some Eberron, dontcha know?)

-- TMW


Thanks for those encouraging words, i'm looking forward to running the Age of Worms soon myself. It's gonna be my first time being a DM and at playing D&D generally, so i really am anticipating the Overload document soon.

Liberty's Edge

The Madwabbit wrote:

...In what might be an unpopular sentiment on this board, please, PLEASE, PLEASE take your time!! I'd rather have "behind-schedule" quality than crap delivered on time.

Myself, I'm more interested in story than stats, and I remember you saying earlier that one of the things holding you up is a plot summary of the whole AP. That is far more important for me (as a narrative-intensive GM) than whether Smenk is a +8 or +11 at Open Lock....

You are soooo RIGHT!!!

I am unpopular as well ;)


Well, Editor Erik, so goes getting out the Shackled City and this. And the Dungeon issue. Deadlines, deadlines...Hahahaha. I know you have your plate full to the brim. You know us DMs. We want you to snap you fingers and "Presto" the Overload appears. Thanks for being so patient with us and all our eccentricities!


Can I give you guys at Paizo a little bit of advice? In the future, you ought to err heavily on the side of caution. If originally you had said the AoWO would not be available until August, there would have been a little disgruntlement but pretty much everyone would understand in the end and I imagine it would have been largely overlooked (at least relative to how much attention we are paying now) until we were suddenly quite pleasantly surprised to see it released a few days early in the last week of July. This would have engendered praise from gamers for a job-well-done on getting something out before its ETA. As it stands, you have given us deadlines that get consistently pushed back which results in a lot of disappointment.

I'm not trying to rake anyone over the coals. I understand this is a free package and that Paizo is going the extra mile when they don't have to. But I do think this idea could have been marketed better. It's much better to set an overly cautious deadline than to tell people you'll give them something on such and such date and then not deliver. Even if it's free, people are going to at least be disappointed and that reflects poorly on the company. I still look forward to it and I want you guys to take as much time as possible so that it is good. But please don't be so optimistic about the ETA in the future.


I agree with Airwalker.
I too, would like to make a request. All I ask is that you guys put out the maps of the surrounding area. That's what I'd like to see. All the other nitty-gritty stuff can wait if you feel you're rushed. I'll be running the campaign soon (I hope) and I'd like to see the overall layout of the Cairn Hills and the environs. Well, it was worth a shot guys.


You know what really really really kills me... this post is going to drop to the end of the list as soon as the download is available... no one is going to remember that it took a whole 2 extra weeks to get the thing out. Once it's available for download there'll be a whole new gripe session post about who's not happy about what particular thing they didn't like about the .pdf.

Which is just sad.

Dark Archive

Craig Ousterling wrote:

You know what really really really kills me... this post is going to drop to the end of the list as soon as the download is available... no one is going to remember that it took a whole 2 extra weeks to get the thing out. Once it's available for download there'll be a whole new gripe session post about who's not happy about what particular thing they didn't like about the .pdf.

Which is just sad.

I'm actually pretty sure that I'm going to love the pdf when it comes out. There are only a few things that I "expect" from the Overload. These are the things that were specifically promised by issue 124 that would appear in #125. I can't recall exactly what they were since my magazines are not handy, but they are clearly written out in there. Besides that everything else in my opinion is "extra" and I will not gripe about anything that I did not spend any money on. For those saying that Overload is completely free, there is a small problem. Namely parts of Overload were promised to appear in an issue at least a few people bought in order to get that info. I'm also pretty sure its more than 2 weeks late but I'll have to search the forums for the exact post where the editors actually promised it a lot earlier. And don't worry, I'll be sure to keep this thread alive...

Despite all the negative stuff I spout, there are 1000 things I like about Dungeon, its just that I reward good stuff with my continued purchasing, not with message board comments.

Dark Archive

Found a little of what I was looking for:

James Jacobs wrote:
Yup. We're aiming to have Overload available ASAP. It won't happen this week. It might happen next. If it takes us longer than #125's newsstand release date (7/12), I'll be a sad editor.

This quote was made on June 30th in the thread:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/ageOfWorms/whereIsTheOverloadD ownload#18041

As of today we actually bypassed the three week mark, and I guess James is a sad, sad editor :(...


I actualy haven't seen much of what I would consider griping. So far I think people have been fairly curtious in their requests for more accurate release dates. People know the file in question is free, and that the editors are going above and beyond to get several high quality products out and on the shelves as quickly as possible.


Sean Halloran wrote:
For those saying that Overload is completely free, there is a small problem. Namely parts of Overload were promised to appear in an issue at least a few people bought in order to get that info.

Forgive me, I’m not following this argument. Please explain how someone unknowingly buys #125 for the SOLE reason of getting the Backdrop article. If one is so hooked on the Adventure Path that they must have the Backdrop, isn’t their main interest in picking up the next adventure installment?

I can perhaps see someone who knew ahead of time that they wouldn’t be using the adventure, but that means they either thumbed through the magazine in the store (in which case they’d know they weren’t getting the Backdrop article), or they read enough on these messageboards to decide they would skip the adventure. And if they’re reading these boards, I’m betting they know about the missing article... :)

If someone has a subscription...well, my POV is that a subscription is like saying “I like your magazine so much, I’m committing to buying the next 12, sight unseen.” I'm not buying a certain issue on the anticipation of one article.

I can only think of 2 people that support your argument. First, the person that read about the Backdrop in #124, who has no intention of playing 3FoE, and who hastily buys #125 over the counter, sight unseen. To whom I first say, “Slow Down” and then, “Buyer Beware.”

The other person is the one who reads #124, has no intention of playing 3FoE, but based on the promise of the Backdrop article calls Piazo and buys a 12-month subscription. If such a person exists, please have them e-mail me and I will send them a cookie.

I mean, I might send them a cookie, as soon as I can. When it’s done baking. If everyone sends me all the ingredients on time. And I get done frosting them. And -- hey, while I’m at it, those peanut butter chips would fit in nicely, too... :)

(Keep up the good work Piazo, you are saints among men...or among gamers, at least.)


Sean Halloran wrote:
I'll have to search the forums for the exact post where the editors actually promised it a lot earlier.

The majority of your arguments in this thread rely on the word "promise." Seriously, dude, you need to re-evaluate your use of that word. Otherwise, you're going to live a life of disappointment...especially after political elections.

Since you've chosen to try to use the editor's words against them, I would point out that nothing in your quote above constitutes a promise in my book. In fact, throughout this forum, the editors have gone out of their way not to unduly commit to a date, using words like "hopefully" and "might" and "as soon as possible." Not to mention "we've kinda been aiming" and "It's going to take a minor miracle." (Hidden message for those who missed it: "all good things to those who wait.")

As for the promise made in the "Next Month" column in #124, I'll give you that one. But it was only a promise; not a legally-binding contract. I give it as much weight as a "coming soon to a theatre near you" trailer. Delays happen. Give it time. The truth is, the editors recognize that they made a promise, and they will deliver. They just can't honestly promise you a delivery date, a point about which they've been completely honest.


Sean Halloran wrote:
As of today we actually bypassed the three week mark...

Actually, depending on how you look at it, it could be considered even more late than that.

It was supposed to have been included in issue #125, meaning it should have been ready weeks ahead of time to facilitate placement in the magazine, typesetting, printing, etc, so the issue could be shipped to subscribers. (I'm guessing it should have been ready in at least text form about the time most subscribers received #124 if it was to be included in #125.) As of a couple of days ago, issue #126 has shipped to subscribers, and we're still hearing that some of the content promised in #124 isn't even written yet.

So I'd put the unofficial count at coming up on (roughly) two months.


The severed head of Mike Hughey wrote:
So I'd put the unofficial count at coming up on (roughly) two months.

My copy of #125 just arrived in the mail yesterday. Everything's a matter of perspective, isn't it?


The severed head of Mike Hughey wrote:
we're still hearing that some of the content promised in #124 isn't even written yet.

Please see my above comments about promises. Also, the editors have made it quite clear that delaying Overload has given them the opportunity to give us far MORE than they promised. For example: would you rather have a complete campaign overview of every single adventure? or a periodic update/sneak preview called "The Road Ahead" as "promised" in #124?

So, please, I'm begging you. Quit harping on the word "promise." We get it. But we're also past it. Please look to the future and all the great things we'll be getting in place of that original promise.


Ophryon wrote:
My copy of #125 just arrived in the mail yesterday. Everything's a matter of perspective, isn't it?

A few people's issues showing up late doesn't change the fact that the article should have been ready well before the issues were printed and shipped over a month ago.

Dark Archive

Wow I make a post promising that I won’t gripe when this thing finally comes out and I still got someone coming out of the woodwork to bash me. Oh well, here we go….

Ophryon wrote:

Forgive me, I’m not following this argument. Please explain how someone unknowingly buys #125 for the SOLE reason of getting the Backdrop article. If one is so hooked on the Adventure Path that they must have the Backdrop, isn’t their main interest in picking up the next adventure installment?

Okay, some people do not frequently use modules from Dungeon. Such a person thus does not subscribe. Through the intense awesomeness of issue 124 (it was pretty good) they hear about it and thus buy it. Inside that issue is a very nice starting adventure and a rather large masterwork article by Erik detailing an in-depth town called Diamond Lake. In that issue they are told another segment called “Denizens of Diamond Lake” will be coming in #125. Now even if this person does not want to run the next adventure (which is hard to call since nobody knew if it would be good or not) they do know that they will probably enjoy the continued creation of the setting. So they buy 125 with that assumption. Some people on these boards have pointed out that they are not using “Three Faces of Evil” for different reasons. So yes, some people interested in the AP do not have a SOLE interest in the next adventure as much as the setting itself. Let us continue…

Ophryon wrote:

I can perhaps see someone who knew ahead of time that they wouldn’t be using the adventure, but that means they either thumbed through the magazine in the store (in which case they’d know they weren’t getting the Backdrop article), or they read enough on these messageboards to decide they would skip the adventure. And if they’re reading these boards, I’m betting they know about the missing article... :)

The flaw in this reasoning is something I pointed out earlier. Many stores have their magazines wrapped in plastic. Some of us simply cannot view the material before buying it. So they did not know they were not getting the backdrop issue. Some people also do not read these message boards, or even view this site. Dungeon and Dragon are both advertised on the official WotC site and people might have knowledge of them separate from this site. Thus if they never visited these boards, had only the info from 124, and could not actually open the magazine in the store they probably got a mighty surprise when they got home.

Ophryon wrote:

The other person is the one who reads #124, has no intention of playing 3FoE, but based on the promise of the Backdrop article calls Piazo and buys a 12-month subscription. If such a person exists, please have them e-mail me and I will send them a cookie.

Mmm, cookies. Please send me one. I resubscribed to Dungeon based upon what I saw in #124 (on the assumption that the quality would remain at the same standard) and I felt disappointed at what happened in #125. Do I regret my subscription? Not really, I need to see how the next few issues play out. Do I, and others who expected this a lot sooner have right to “whine”? Well, I hope my post explains why many of us feel we do. Goodnight.

Dark Archive

I can already see this thread heating up again...


Sean's post above described my situation nicely actually. I never bought an issue of Dungeon before #124, I pick up an issue of Dragon here or there when an article catches my eye but every issue of Dungeon I ever happened to come across (up till 125) had been plastic wrapped, I had no idea what they contained really and thus had no interest in buying something when I didn't know what I was getting.

Cue issue 124 and this quite incredible "adventure path" that I heard buzz about on various sites... "Alright I'm looking to run an Eberron campaign" simply because my friend asked me to, "I haven't been able to read a whole lot about Eberron but I seem to like it. And here I hear about a 12 part adventure series taking the party to 20th level... and it has prewritten conversions to Eberron, sweet deal."

So I bought #124 and I was blown away, I couldn't believe I never picked up Dungeon earlier. The Whispering Caren was pretty sweet but the Backdrop really sold it. Luckily I did come to the site and found the conversions. So I started running it and had quite a blast. Most of the time in game (and it's been three sessions to get through the first part of the adventure) has been run off the backdrop article not the adventure. I loved issue 124 I freaking loved it. Then I started hearing rumbles of 125 being not so good, that three faces didn't stack up.

I bought 125 hoping that the rumbling was wrong, yeah I flipped through it (cringed when I saw the maze) but I was in a hurry. I read the adventure... and the old conversion notes and the one paragraph descriptions of the deities in the EBCS... Not a lot to go on. Well overload should clear it up... and I didn't think Whispering Caren would be RP intesive but with the GREAT backdrop it ended up being mostly talking IC. Now here I sit, looking forward to a game on Saturday with very little to go on.

Don't get me wrong if I have to I'll pull off the conversion myself, but I don't know swat about the dark six, the Eberron Campaign setting doesn't have a lot on them. I was looking forward to Keith's article fleshing them out. Because The Mockery, The Shadow, and The Keeper are significantly different than Vecna, Hextor, well, I don't have the mag in front of me and lets agree I'd spell it wrong anyway.

I'm not angry, I'm not mad. I'm frustrated... but then again I'm also a Dragonlance fan and look at the delays Sovereign Press has had.

So what's my point? There is no point. I'm frustrated, and I'm venting. Listen Erik and the other guys at Dungeon. I trust that you have valid reasons for the delay. I trust you on that. And I know that there are probably a dozen reasons you can't just come out and say "This this and this" are holding us up". I don't expect you to. I believe you guys are trying your damnedest to get the Overload out. As you can tell I'm a trusting fellow but seriously guy... this was a screw up on your end. And that's just the truth.

I look forward to it, with great anticipation, and I trust it'll be great, I really do.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Nived wrote:
So what's my point? There is no point. I'm frustrated, and I'm venting. Listen Erik and the other guys at Dungeon. I trust that you have valid reasons for the delay. I trust you on that. And I know that there are probably a dozen reasons you can't just come out and say "This this and this" are holding us up". I don't expect you to. I believe you guys are trying your damnedest to get the Overload out. As you can tell I'm a trusting fellow but seriously guy... this was a screw up on your end. And that's just the truth.

We're well aware of the fact that we're way late getting the Age of Worms Overload material up online. Promising it in print was probably a mistake. It'll be up online as soon as we can make it happen.

Simple fact of the matter is that the adventures can be run as is without Age of Worms Overload. The only real mistake we made was indicating that the material existed before it was ready to see the light of the day.

In any case... it'll be up when it goes up. At which point I'll finally be able to stop having a nervous breakdown about it not being up online and get to work on my nervous breakdown caused by readers who are disapointed with the PDF.


Hmmm... gripe and complain? Say "I told you so?" Naaahhhh... you guys are getting chewed out enough already and I certainly don't need to make it worse.

Look, James, Erik, everyone at Paizo has, by far, exceeded my expectations when the magazines were taken over from Wizards. You have made Dungeon a "must buy" for me, and Dragon isn't far behind. And, for all pratical purposes, I'm barely employed. You are bending over backwards to make good on your promise, so I'm backing you all the way. Just get it out "when it's done" and I'll be happy. (I admit I need it now, but I'll live. The backdrop gave me plenty to go on.)

I do have one question... it is implied that Balabar Smenk should no longer be a major threat by the end of 3FoE. Does this mean that DMs are able to design his house as we see fit? My party is ready to break down his doors to arrest him, and I'd like to know if I need to keep him alive for later in the series or not.

Squid


No worries, James... the wee ones are just getting a little colicky. This thread is remakably like a backseat chorus of "are we there yet?" Personally, I recommend a nice venti caramel macchiato for the driver, and less sugar for the passengers.

The overload will be excellent, and I'm content to wait for the coolness. Truly, Dungeon is at its best! And I just bought a subscription to Dragon after *years* of not even getting OTC issues. The team rocks! Caramel macchiato. Seriously.

PS: The only mistake was in naming the beastie as an "Overload"... it's come ALIVE, and it's trying to live up to its name! :-)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Squid wrote:
I do have one question... it is implied that Balabar Smenk should no longer be a major threat by the end of 3FoE. Does this mean that DMs are able to design his house as we see fit? My party is ready to break down his doors to arrest him, and I'd like to know if I need to keep him alive for later in the series or not.

Yup! Feel free to design Smenk's house as you will. I can't remember if we've already published his stats or not, but if not, they'll certainly be in Overload. A map of his house will not be.


Should be fun to design the dire-ape-railroad inside Smenk Manor. Don't forget that it used to be Luzane Parrin's house 3 years ago, so she might have spies or a secret stash behind the walls there.

Scarab Sages

Us Italian type folks up here in the NE have a saying that applies here Mr. Jacobs...it is what it is. you folks are doing your best, and I, for one appreciate that. I look forward to the Overload, and the strain it will cause my wallet, in buying 2 print cartridges for my printer...hell, I have been out for a few weeks anyway, so it is a good excuse. I know many of you love the artwork and stuff, I really could do without the art. Just gimme the meat and potatoes baby, or maybe I should say the macaroni and gravy.

Pat

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
...The only real mistake we made was indicating that the material existed before it was ready to see the light of the day. ...

Yeah, how often did this happen to me?!

My friends say my enthusiasm for a thing is sometimes too much and that I will never mature. And yes, I sometimes can't wait to tell my friends of an idea I have, even if nothing explicit exists.
Thinking of this, I "know" your enthusisasm for your work is great and that we gamers are all kids and will always be! (Uh, I hope I will not start a new discussion with this statement).
Take your time, I also know you have something BIG out there for us, for the whineing ones and the waiting ones... ;)
We will all love it and a day after, oh, a minute after the release no one will remember that it took longer!


All too often a single negative comment can negate a dozen positive ones. Especially when you're feeling overworked. I hope James, Erik and the rest of the gang keep in mind that there's an abundance of silent, happy, patient people, who think that you are all working above and beyond the call of duty, all in the name of this beautiful game we all love. Even the negative comments come from passion for the game. None of us want to see your health suffer for it. So, relax, we'll still be here when the job is done.

I was going to advise some deep breathing exercises, "...breath in pink...exhale blue..." but you'd probably just turn it into an idea for a new dragon species. :)


For Mike and Sean: I understand your position, mates, I truly do. And you're entitled to your opinion. But, at this point, Overload has evolved into something completely new. Sniping at the editors with snarky comments about delays and deadlines won't get it here any faster, and serves no purpose. That's what brought me out of the woodwork, Sean. I'm not trying to bash you, just respectfully asking that you dial it back a little, especially if you want to see a Herculean effort like this from Piazo ever again.

To everyone else trying to keep this thread positive and encouraging, thank you, and I'll stop feeding the fire now. Cheers!

Scarab Sages

Guys, the download is going to be FREE.

They do what they can, and God knows that life gets in the way.

Its a FREE download. FREE.

Meaning, it gets here when it gets here, and we should be thankful that the company is willing to put forth all this effort for something that is... FREE.

Everybody really needs to get over the whole issue of waiting, especially for something that is going to be FREE.


While I realize that this is going to be a free supplement, it is still material referenced in purchased modules and as such should be as early in the campaign as possible. Threads running the entire length of the campaign are seeded and built around from the start, so inserting material retroactively is difficult at best. My primary concern, however, is the series of delays creates the perception that the material is being subsequently generated as a way to play "catch up" and fill in the gaps rather than presenting material that should have been available to the publishers for playtesting many months in advance. I only hope that the material that does finally get published is properly playtested if it is subsequently generated material meant to fill in the gaps rather than information used during the generation of the modules.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
William Sinclair wrote:

Guys, the download is going to be FREE.

They do what they can, and God knows that life gets in the way.

Its a FREE download. FREE.

Meaning, it gets here when it gets here, and we should be thankful that the company is willing to put forth all this effort for something that is... FREE.

Everybody really needs to get over the whole issue of waiting, especially for something that is going to be FREE.

Well said Mr. Sinclair, well said. Relax people .... let them get it done ... they've got a lot on their plate and all you all can do is complain ..... if I were them I'd have half a mind to not release it now ....... give them a break.

Paizo ... just continue to make it a quality product.

Thanks for the effort.


Fenrat wrote:
William Sinclair wrote:

Guys, the download is going to be FREE.

They do what they can, and God knows that life gets in the way.

Its a FREE download. FREE.

Meaning, it gets here when it gets here, and we should be thankful that the company is willing to put forth all this effort for something that is... FREE.

Everybody really needs to get over the whole issue of waiting, especially for something that is going to be FREE.

Well said Mr. Sinclair, well said. Relax people .... let them get it done ... they've got a lot on their plate and all you all can do is complain ..... if I were them I'd have half a mind to not release it now ....... give them a break.

Paizo ... just continue to make it a quality product.

Thanks for the effort.

OK, even I have to chime in now. (Why not?) I have been and remain patient for the release of Overload. But the "there giving us something FREE" argument is getting old and is blurted out in ignorance.

Overload was promised as part of Dungeon #125. I paid for Dungeon #125, therefore paying, in advance for Overload. It is not free. I will patiently wait for its release, but to suggest that they not publish a product I already paid for because of a bunch of impatient board surfers is just ludicrous.


Every magazine on the face of the planet that has existed for any decent amount of time has at one time or another put in a blurb for an article that they intended to run next issue that didn't make it. Many of those same magazines have ended up never running the article was was cut for various reasons. Just becuase it was mentioned that the content was originally going to be part of the magazine doesn't mean you paid for it and you didn't get your money's worth because it didn't appear. If they had cut pages from the magazine, your arguement would work, but it doesn't.

I really do worry that the amount of griping about being entitled to free stuff, and the constant harping that Paizo owes you this or that because a blurb said it would be there or because Erik said that originally it was going to be in the magazine, is going to affect the efforts of the staff to produce another free download, to take on another adventure path, or even to continue working for the organization.

I can understand being impatient, I can even understand asking for updates, and expressing dissappointments in promises not kept. But we are seeing more and more in depth explanations of why this free supplement is owed to the readers and it should have been part of the price of this issue, etc.

Tons of material over the years has ended up in Dragon and online from sourcebooks and adventures that were produced, but becuase no one ever said "this was suppose to be in this product" obviouly we didn't have this massive wave of "they owe me" comments washing in. Erik's only crime is that he is too open with us about how he does things instead of playing things secretively and close to the vest.

Personally, I like Erik's candor, and really don't want to beat him up over this.

Liberty's Edge

That's true! Erik is doing a great job!!!
I think it's great letting us know what's happening behind the curtains. If that means he might come up with a given info a bit too early, making the waiting time longer - NO PROBLEM!
I really hope Erik and the other guys at paizo don't take some of the things said here too personally and will, in the future, still work on those great things for which we love their/our magazine so much!
For me, I think there has never been a better time to be a Dungeon reader!


Personally, I'm in the same situation as a lot of DMs out there I imagine. I've ran the Whispering Cairn with the information provided in the magazine and found great extra stuff in the online supplement for conversion into my Eberron campaign.

But it's also true that as I have to run the next part of the campaign, I'm gonna run the 3FoE one starting this weekend not feeling that I know really well enough about things in Diamond Lake. The online supplement for #125 had nothing about the backdrop itself but I knew it'd come in Overload.

But the failure to provide the Overload info in a timely manner has made me seriously consider putting in a filler generic dungeon crawl for our next session to wait for more info. Instead I've decided to make stuff up knowing that I may have to re-attach the wagons when adventurers move to Sharn later on if I messed up some critical part or NPC involvement.

So I'm a little disappointed by the delay in making Overload available and the extra work I had to put in to keep running the campaign as planned. I buy Dungeon to save myself some prep time and that kinda defeats the purpose if I have to fill in gaps for stuff that didn't make it on time.

Not a rant. I understand time constraints and appreciate the professionalism behind editors wanting to make sure they only release a good product - even free - but I'm just stating that it's a bit of a let down after raising the bar this high with #124 and its supplement.

Grand Lodge

I agree it's hard to wait for something we all expect to be really useful in our campaigns.

However, at this point I think the Overload will arrive more quickly if the staff do not feel obligated to spend time checking this thread and occasionally explaining themselves. I think at this point they could safely ignore this discussion and just focus on getting the supplement ready.

(Can't wait to begin our campaign in a couple of weeks!)


KnightErrantJR wrote:
Every magazine on the face of the planet that has existed for any decent amount of time has at one time or another put in a blurb for an article that they intended to run next issue that didn't make it.

Dungeon is far different than your subscription to Vogue. Vogue drops a fluff piece (a.k.a. any article they run) that they mentioned, no big deal. Dungeon has always been more like a store bought module released in magazine form.

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Many of those same magazines have ended up never running the article was was cut for various reasons. Just becuase it was mentioned that the content was originally going to be part of the magazine doesn't mean you paid for it and you didn't get your money's worth because it didn't appear. If they had cut pages from the magazine, your arguement would work, but it doesn't.

If I NEVER get the remainder of the backdrop promised in the first backdrop article then i don't believe I am getting my money's worth. The additional backdrop information is VITAL to busy DMs who can't spend too much time writing this themselves. I believe Erik and James feel the same way and they have expressed how disappointed they are that they were unable to produce this when they wanted to.

KnightErrantJR wrote:
I really do worry that the amount of griping about being entitled to free stuff, and the constant harping that Paizo owes you this or that because a blurb said it would be there or because Erik said that originally it was going to be in the magazine, is going to affect the efforts of the staff to produce another free download, to take on another adventure path, or even to continue working for the organization.

Since they seem angry with themselves for biting off more than they can chew, I really doubt that the griping of a few board members is going to make them quit. If Erik hasn't quit over the lack of having a life outside the magazine, I doubt some whiners will. Besides, all of us, whether we are praising or whining, have one thing in common: we really like the new AP. The only bad buzz is no buzz.

KnightErrantJR wrote:
I can understand being impatient, I can even understand asking for updates, and expressing dissappointments in promises not kept. But we are seeing more and more in depth explanations of why this free supplement is owed to the readers and it should have been part of the price of this issue, etc.

I am being patient. But to call something that was promised to be part of this AP to be contained in an issue which I bought is rediculous. You can continue to think of it as "free" all you want. I consider my price paid for the Overload and wait anxiously but patiently for its release.

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Tons of material over the years has ended up in Dragon and online from sourcebooks and adventures that were produced, but becuase no one ever said "this was suppose to be in this product" obviouly we didn't have this massive wave of "they owe me" comments washing in. Erik's only crime is that he is too open with us about how he does things instead of playing things secretively and close to the vest.

No other magazine that I know of has tried to create what they have promised: a full campaign for $84 retail contained in 12 issues and online supplements. You are comparing stand alone articles in Dragon to this? Do you have any concrete examples of a 12-part series of connected material that Dragon didn't deliver fully upon? Probably not.

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Personally, I like Erik's candor, and really don't want to beat him up over this.

Neither do I, but making a snarky comment that if you were them you would get fed up and just not release your supposedly FREE supplement if what's peeving me.


Even if the supplement is late, at some point the criticism become excessive -- I think that point was reached a while back.

Justify it all you want, it's still excessive.

Regards all,

Jack


Tatterdemalion wrote:

Even if the supplement is late, at some point the criticism become excessive -- I think that point was reached a while back.

Justify it all you want, it's still excessive.

Doug Maynard wrote:

I agree it's hard to wait for something we all expect to be really useful in our campaigns.

However, at this point I think the Overload will arrive more quickly if the staff do not feel obligated to spend time checking this thread and occasionally explaining themselves. I think at this point they could safely ignore this discussion and just focus on getting the supplement ready.

Exactly. Both of you have hit the nail on the head. Bickering amongst ourselves over something like this is EXCESSIVE. The point was made three pages back.

So now that you all feel big and have 'taught' the paizo staff their lesson (that being that they should no longer do nice things like this in the future as it is more trouble than it it is worth) we can let them all get back to work.

I can see Erik thinking to him self, 'Gee if I wanted to hear this much whining I'd buy a puppy and kick it.' (I'm sure I just offended half of you, get over it) Yes, whining. We have surpassed civil legit complaints and arrived rather ungraciously at whining.


Wow!

I was not aware that the staff at Paizo needed champions to protect them from the evil doings of whiners ... I vote we block all submitted posts unless they are soothingly placid and praising to make sure that they can work in a Zen mental space that promotes harmony ...

Seriously, I'm being overly sarcastic (I couldn't help myself), but this board is dedicated to a few things:
1) Errata (I love those)
2) The occasional good idea that people are very generous to share (I love those even more)
3) The occasional news (yippi!)
4) Opinions!!! YES! Opinions! Mostly Opinions! because, for better or worse, that's the best that most of us can come up with ... (me included) ... a sad but true affair ...

Reading about people's griping might not be your cup of tea. But griping about someone's griping is still griping and no more "constructive" then what you're griping about in the first place (or in my case, griping about someone's griping about someone's griping) ... In the end, it is nothing but an OPINION ...
The key word here: OPINION

Speaking for the Staff at Paizo and how it may or may not affect them (unless you work there, in which case I will read attentively) strikes me as silly and a tad sycophantic (is there such a word?)
Single-handledly deciding that something is excessive is cute and entertaining but different people have different thresholds for such things ... a matter of "opinion" you might say ...

Freedom of speach rules! (trash excluded, there are children reading) I do not believe that positive or negative "opinions" affect the staff at Paizo much ... in some peoples' opinion, it is great that we get all this yummy stuff for free ... in other peoples' opinion, it impedes their ability to move forward with their campain and have to placate increasingly frustrated players, me included because I know that the overload is going to be WAY better than what I can improvise ... in other peoples' opinions, a product due is a product owed, and it's late, very late and very much needed and desired ... some people think quality warrants the wait ... some people think it should have been planed better ... some people feel cheated ... some people are blissfully happy ... nothing wrong with this picture ... there is no clause that states we should all think and feel the same way about anything ... or censor ourselves one way or another ...

Am I complaining? Kind of ...
Is it offensive? I fail to see how ...
Is it excessive? Probably ... who am I to judge?
Is it going to affect the staff at Paizo? Doubtful ...
Is it going to affect the content or delivery date of the overload? Dubious ...
Should I stop? Absolutely not ... well soon I promise ...
Are these facts? No! They are "opinions"


To Eric Moya, James Jacobs, et al:

Sending you a little 'love' and appreciation for all your hard work with this magazine. This is my 28th year in RPGS (almost exclusively in a fantasy setting), and the Whispering Cairn is the best 1-3rd level adventure in the D20 setting EVER PRINTED. Likewise, both DUNGEON and DRAGON magazines are at or near their best with regards to layout, content, and artwork. A suggestion: go on holiday after all this is resolved. No need to perpetuate the onslaught of 'middle age burn out', eh? A quick lyrical interlude from Neil Peart to exemplify my point, if you will:

'The writer stares with glassy eyes-
defies the empty page
His beard is white, his face is lined
and streaked with tears of rage
Thirty years ago how the words would flow
with passion and precision
But now his mind is dark and dulled
by sickness and indecision...
And he limps across the floor
and closes his bedroom door'

Peace to you


A few comments:

Saying that another persons opinion concerns you and mentioning the consequenses of their opinion being expressed is not the same as saying they have no right to express that opinion in the first place. It is applying free speech to counter the free speech of another, and that is what free speech is about.

When I am talking about other publications, I am talking about magazines like Time or Newsweek having to drop interviews with world leaders, or dropping fairly important pieces on domestic issues when major international events occur, and those pieces are never fit back into the editorial schedule. In perspective, such pieces are potentially very important, and yet sometimes they never see the light of day. Compared to that some game background material that is late doesn't seem like the end of the world. That having been said, I mentioned in my post that I could understand being upset, asking when its coming et al, but I personally (my own opinion expressed here) think that some of the comments are getting a bit extreem.

Shackled City did not have the background material that Age of Worms does. DM ran it and loved it. Its possible to do this without the background material. Before you jump me for suggesting you do without, follow my reasoning here. First off, if you cruise these boards enought to post multiple complaints, you probably have run across Erik and a few of the other editors mentioning that they would not start the AP until enough of the adventures and supplemental materials have come out that you have a broader overveiw of what is going to happen.

So when Erik warns us that we may want to see the majority of the picture before we start running the adventure, I guess we may have to improvise if we don't follow his advice.

When you buy Dungeon, you are buying 106 pages of material. If you don't like what was in that 106 pages, you are free to not buy again or to cancel your suscription, and indeed you are more than free to tell the guys what you liked and didn't like. But you paid for 106 pages and you got 106 pages. You didn't get fewer pages or pages with no content (well, except for 106).

Finally, no, the guys don't NEED defenders, but its nice if when you see another human being being attacked, wheather they need it or not, if you can, to help them. As some of you pointed out, Erik admited he bit off more than he could chew, and appologized. After he admited this and apologized and has said, "sorry, but it'll be out when its out, thanks for waiting" what good does it do to keep kicking him when he's down?

Scarab Sages

I feel this crazy urge to respond again.

And again, I feel this crazy need to reiterate something...

free

Let me say it again, with a little more omph...

Free

One more time?

Yeah, I think so.

FREE

In no way, shape, or form, are we subscribers obligated this information. As has already been said, sometimes things get dropped from issues, sometimes they don't make it through, sometimes the money and time is no longer feasible.

Piazo is a business

DUNGEON Magazine is product of this business.

Businesses serve one purpose and one purpose only.

To Make Money.

I was in the Navy for ten years, and didn't care about this aspect, since we weren't taught to think that way. Once I got out, and joined the civilian world, I learned "mean and fast" how the corporate world works. My company gives away NOTHING for free. Doesn't happen. Neither do any of our competitors. We are in the business of making cash. Same with Piazo. So if Piazo wants to give us something for free, as an extra, above and beyond the 106(?) pages they publish every month, then enjoy it, 'cause this ain't making them no money, folks. They're paying their guys to do something that they won't charge us for.

Profit - $0.00

Deal.


William Sinclair wrote:

I feel this crazy urge to respond again.

And again, I feel this crazy need to reiterate something...

free

Let me reiterate something.

The people keeping this thread alive aren't the folks asking "where is my supplement" alone. Every time you guys post about how we're all whining because we're probably going to see the next Dungeon before we see Overload, create the hostility in this thread.

It's not FREE, I paid for it already as a subscriber. It is not "optional material" that will expand what's written. It's setting material that is integral to the adventures as published. It's an overview article that I need, in order to balance out the overwritten dungeon that bumped it in the first place.

Paizo doesn't need defenders, they've made their case, and none of us are angry at them, so much as disappointed that we're still waiting. Everytime you folks come in here and tell people they're whining because they expect what they were told to expect, it just makes the point again.

Frankly, I was excited to switch my campaign to AoW, but now that excitement is wearing off. I was told perhaps we should wait until more of it was published, but figured it wouldn't be a problem. Every time I'm called a whiner for wanting what I was promised, it just makes me want to stop AoW more.
So really, someone just lock this thread, I'm tired of being insulted.

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