Found an interview with the editor:
One last question. I understand that George wrote more material than could physically fit in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Some of it will likely make its way to the next novel, THE WINDS OF WINTER. As his editor, how much say did you have in what stayed and what had to be pushed into the next book?
AG: Well… Probably more say that he would have liked…though many of the choices were his as well. Finishing this book where he absolutely wanted to end it would have taken probably another year and more pages than could be realistically bound between two covers. And so much great stuff had happened already that no one, I felt, could be unsatisfied by the developments. So he voluntarily pulled one big sequence out of the book. I lobbied for another…and it came out, too. People may hold me to blame for this, but I still think it was the right choice. The book is so big and complex and rich and wonderful that adding these two sequences would not have made it any better than it already its.
But based on the few things I know that are coming–and on one sneaky bit of information that he fed me early–I simply can’t wait to read WINDS OF WINTER. So, get cracking, George! It’ll be a doozy, I know.
So GRRM didn't finish ADWD, it was published to profit from of the TV show. Then the editor made another cliffhanger instead of doing her job in any other bloated and pointless chapter.
So GRRM didn't finish ADWD, it was published to profit from of the TV show. Then the editor made another cliffhanger instead of doing her job in any other bloated and pointless chapter.
I am sure the show played into it, though it was also about time to put out something; you cant forever tweak and add and subtract. I do agree that some of the plot points and POVs are redundant, and skippable, though this book is much better than Feast. The overuse of "killing of key characters" has also run it's course for me; i felt pretty ambivalent about it. Not sure what the Greyjoy chapters add either.
I'm interested which plots are that? And what problems it solves?
The shocks would be:
The problems solved:
In addition, we can see threads just starting to converge (Asha and Theon, Tyrion and Daenerys, though annoyingly they don't actually meet, Davos going to find Rickon etc) and Aegon's invasion probably won't lead to victory for him, but establishes a foothold that will speed Dany's own invasion, assuming GRRM can get her out of her situation and back to Westeros quickly, which is far from certain.
My thoughts on ADWD
For the most part, I was very disappointed, and have to agree with the complaints that "nothing happens." It is indeed strongly reminiscent of some of Jordan's later volumes. The first 75% of the book could have been cut down by half or more.
However, I hope that GRRM was simply constrained by the structure and pacing of AFFC, and that things will really pick up steam in subsequent volumes. We know he is capable of it...A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords were both amazing.
P.S. while I appreciate that repetition can be used as a literary device, by the end of the book I was sick to death of reading "____ was not wrong." :P
Now I'm looking forward to Ghost Story that much more...
yea, Butcher's cliffhanger in Changes was all right, imagine if he did the same as Martin in Chichen Itza. The book would be considered a failure. With the possibility that the next book won't ever be published
I am sure the show played into it, though it was also about time to put out something; you cant forever tweak and add and subtract. I do agree that some of the plot points and POVs are redundant, and skippable, though this book is much better than Feast. The overuse of "killing of key characters" has also run it's course for me; i felt pretty ambivalent about it. Not sure what the Greyjoy chapters add either.
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I'm interested which plots are that? And what problems it solves?The shocks would be:
** spoiler omitted **
The problems solved:
** spoiler omitted **
I wish the timeline synchronization happened around the page 300.
I don't get why would Osha go to Skagos.
While disappointed with the style of writing and the endings, there were a few fun parts, the next book would had great potential if GRRM wanted to write
Cersei being quiet
Slynt's death was satisfying
occasional Tyrion's humor (septa Lemore)
Jorah the hopeless romantic, defying the slavers
Bloodraven, I wonder if has eyes all over Westeros, like the Red Keep's cat
Rhoyne ruins
Mormont's bird saying king, king
Giantsbabe and Wun Wun
Drogon the beast, not magical flying pony
Randyll Tarly is in the council
Manderlys fooling the Freys and Davos
Mance's fight
bold Skahaz
not sure about
Victarion, should have arrived sooner and used the horn
not a mention of Marwyn
Osha's choice is seems stupid, Skagos instead of the Neck
are Ilyrio and the Tattered Prince enemies
Varys being for Aegon, why would the Golden Company follow him if he's real, would Bittersteel want that
** spoiler omitted **
Pycelle is replaceable by another maester, sure, but none with his history and connections to the Lannisters, or his history of intrigue.
The Red Wedding was not 'as' expected, but there were some hints in ACoK that some sort of treachery or betrayal was in the cards (the Freys at Harrenhal are talking about 'Robb's betrayal' late in the book, and Dany sees a vision of the Red Wedding in Qarth.
Numerian:
yea, Butcher's cliffhanger in Changes was all right
A nasty one.
I'm reading Ghost Story at the moment. I have a couple of ideas how the whole thing will turn out, can't wait to find out whether I'm right.
I don't have a real idea about the identity Harry needs to find out, though.
Numerian:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
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Say what you like about the book (and I agree that the story has profound weaknesses in the Essos part of the tale...)
Whatever the case, George RR Martin has pulled off an AMAZING sales feat this day. Today, GRRM has the simultaneous #1 position in both fiction categories AND in combined print and e-book sales.
#1 Combined Print and E-Book Fiction - A Dance with Dragons, by GRRM
#1 Hardcover Fiction - A Dance with Dragons, by GRRM
#1 Mass-market Paperback Fiction - A Game of Thrones, by GRRM
In case you missed it earlier, A Dance with Dragons had the largest one-day sales of any book this year upon its release.
Not to be outdone, GRRM has 4 books in Publishers Weekly Top Ten in paperback fiction. (And yes, GRRM has #1 in both hardcover and mass-market paperback fiction on Publishers Weekly top ten lists, too)
And of course, Game of Thrones is up for Best Drama in the 2011 Emmy Awards.
If you are an author, by any possible objective standard you care to name, George is currently sitting at the pinnacle among all fiction writers.
Simultaneous #1 NY Times bestsellers in both hardcover fiction and mass-market paperback fiction is quite a feat. In fact, I am trying to determine if anyone else has done it (besides J.K. Rowling, that is, but they ret-conned her sales records by shifting Harry Potter out of mainstream fiction to the "Young Adult" category). Whatever the case, it's a damned short list.
Congratulations George!!
Congrats on the success, thanks to the previous books, reminds me of The Phantom Menace.
The parts in Meereen were more interesting than what happened in the North. A lot of people like Reek, I don't have a S&M streak.
** spoiler omitted **
If you are an author, by any possible objective standard you care to name, George is currently sitting at the pinnacle among all fiction writers.Simultaneous #1 NY Times bestsellers in both hardcover fiction and mass-market paperback fiction is quite a feat. In fact, I am trying to determine if anyone else has done it (besides J.K. Rowling, that is, but they ret-conned her sales records by shifting Harry Potter out of mainstream fiction to the "Young Adult" category). Whatever the case, it's a damned short list.
Congratulations George!!
I dont think anyone can claim that GRRM is anything but a superb writer. His ability to weive and track a complex story is pretty much absurd. I love how he puts together his stories and take time building you towards eachother. I think everyone mostly takes issue with his editing choices (which may not be entirely his ofcourse). There was more that should have gone into dance with dragons, and I have in the last week been warning friends not to pick up the game of thrones series. With the last 2 books being massive frustrations I no longer believe that the song of ice and fire should have been read as it is written. This is one series, like the Dark Tower, that will be a far better experience when the entire series is in hand, and you dont have to deal with the fact that major arcs are now split accross 3 books and more then a decade of actual time.
While disappointed with the style of writing and the endings, there were a few fun parts, the next book would had great potential if GRRM wanted to write
** spoiler omitted **
not sure about
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Ah, I think this is an area where the TV show has obscured what happened in the books.
That doesn't rule out the red priests being immune to fire under certain circumstances and with certain magic, but neither Dany in particular nor the Targaryens in general are automatically immune to fire all the time.
The TV show also made her hair immune, I wondered before why it burned
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Say what you like about the book (and I agree that the story has profound weaknesses in the Essos part of the tale...)
Whatever the case, George RR Martin has pulled off an AMAZING sales feat this day. [b]Today, GRRM has the simultaneous #1 position in both fiction categories AND in combined print and e-book sales.[/]
#1 Combined Print and E-Book Fiction - A Dance with Dragons, by GRRM
#1 Hardcover Fiction - A Dance with Dragons, by GRRM
#1 Mass-market Paperback Fiction - A Game of Thrones, by GRRM
McDonald's sells lots of hamburgers too.
McDonald's sells lots of hamburgers too.
I understand your point (Argumentum ad populum) but McDonald, come on, Martin is not THAT bad!
Werthead, I take it you've not read 'Dance with Dragons' yet ;)
Weeks before it came out thanks to a review copy.
Wert:
Was it me or did
Wholeheartedly agree with you on the latter spoiler. It sapped some of the fun out of the book for me.
Wert: ** spoiler omitted **
Was it me or did ** spoiler omitted ** a bit of an ass pull? Was it hinted at anywhere that i missed?
How magic works in the system
How winter works in the world
Wert: ** spoiler omitted **
Was it me or did ** spoiler omitted ** a bit of an ass pull? Was it hinted at anywhere that i missed?
The return of a certain character:
The crazy seasons in the setting is a result of magic. There is no scientific explanation for it at all. The days get longer and shorter during the summer and winter even if one summer is 2 years long and the next is 10. To explain that scientifically, the planet's orbit would have to be so erratic it would likely be uninhabitable.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Overall, the book was a disappointment to me. Same complaints it sounds like others have - like the first 500 pages or so with nothing really of consequence happening.
I have decided also that one of my new un-favorite literary tropes is the "super-secret detailed plan that no one can know about, but I've been plotting for years, and slowly all is now coming together" ... except the *READER* never gets to know what it is, and it ends up feeling like rationalization and obfuscation for the sake of diverting attention from the fact that the actual PLOT isn't going anywhere. "Trust me, it may not SEEM like I'm doing anything, but I really am. It's just soooo subtle and far-reaching that you can't see it, and I don't dare tell you about it either."
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I'm looking at YOU
I did really enjoy the return of
The last third of the book was pretty decent, but the wayyyyy too much wasted space.
The crazy seasons in the setting is a result of magic. There is no scientific explanation for it at all. The days get longer and shorter during the summer and winter even if one summer is 2 years long and the next is 10. To explain that scientifically, the planet's orbit would have to be so erratic it would likely be uninhabitable.
I'll have to go back and look at the length of days. What exactly is the citadel measuring then that they have to send out the ravens to let people know its winter? If it was just "Hey its cold out" every raven would be sent back with a message reading "Duh"
Say what you like about the book (and I agree that the story has profound weaknesses in the Essos part of the tale...)
Whatever the case, George RR Martin has pulled off an AMAZING sales feat this day. [b]Today, GRRM has the simultaneous #1 position in both fiction categories AND in combined print and e-book sales.[/]
#1 Combined Print and E-Book Fiction - A Dance with Dragons, by GRRM
#1 Hardcover Fiction - A Dance with Dragons, by GRRM
#1 Mass-market Paperback Fiction - A Game of Thrones, by GRRM
McDonald's sells lots of hamburgers too.
It also helps that Amazon is selling the book for more than 50% off.
I have given out several copies as role-playing prizes at my recent sessions.
The funny thing was that one of the players actually tossed the book back at me at the next session.
Fortunately, he did not throw it that hard; I was able to leap out of the way; there was nothing too breakable behind me.
Anyway, the player said that he read the first 50 pages and realized that it wasn't worth the effort to read the rest.
Several of the other players laughed and agreed.
One of the players took the tossed book, saving him $15.
In service,
Rich
http://zhalindor.com
@DrGames: Way back at the start of the thread you offered, fairly eloquently, your opinion of ASoIaF and how you disliked it because it did not chime with your worldview, which is an understandable opinion. However, that does leave me bemused that you'd give copies of a book in a series you've said you dislike as a 'reward' to players in your group. Were the players pre-existing fans of the series?
I'll have to go back and look at the length of days. What exactly is the citadel measuring then that they have to send out the ravens to let people know its winter? If it was just "Hey its cold out" every raven would be sent back with a message reading "Duh"
Probably the length of the days themselves. Once the days start getting noticeably shorter, that's a sign that they're into the second half of summer and the end is in sight. Then once the length of the days drops below a certain level and other factors are noted (snowfall, storms in the Narrow Sea etc) the maesters can conclude that winter has properly started.
These other factors are presumably essential to avoid the problems of declaring a 'false' spring or summer (like the one at the time of the Harrenhal tourney), since doing so has ramifications for people putting food supplies to one side, whether or not they're going to move out of winter towns back to their farms, starting to farm again etc.
Well, how else would you make a day shorter without altering the axis of the planet?
Well, how else would you make a day shorter without altering the axis of the planet?
Obviously I mean the period of daylight relative to darkness, the same way it's daylight for several hours longer on 21 June than it is on 21 December in the northern hemisphere on our planet :)
A day on Martinworld is still - by stunning coincidence - 24 hours long and that never changes. The length of daylight and night changes with the seasons, no matter the length of the seasons. That's what causes the confusion, as there is no scientific explanation possible for this.
Brian Aldiss' HELLICONIA TRILOGY is worth a look for those interested in an SF setting where the planet has variable-length seasons lasting centuries or decades. In that case Helliconia orbits a standard orange star which in turn circles a blue supergiant over the course of 3,000 years, with the seasons lasting for centuries.
I'm not sure how much Martin's mixing science and magic in this series (or how much he's letting folks infer from what he's implied in his work), but the length of a planet's day is determined by the time it takes the planet rotate on its axis (regardless of its axial tilt).
This isn't quite correct. The length of the AVERAGE day on the planet is indeed determined by how fast the planet is spinning, but the period of sunlight you have at any particular location depends on how fast the planet is spinning AND The tilt of the planet. The length of a day in an area determines how much sun its exposed to, thus its local temperature, this is why in january florida, new york, and the north pole all have different lengths of day.
A planet's seasons are determined by the time it takes the planet to rotate around it's primary star(s); a "year."
If it has a relatively stable wobble on its axis then yes. If it had an unsteady wobble then no.
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That's what causes the confusion, as there is no scientific explanation possible for this.
A wobbly axis would. As long as you don't have something A la jorden where the days got shorter and it stayed summer anyway you can explain the winters with a tilting axis. A few things could cause that: the comet, a moon that was too close, an asteroid strike in its recent history ...
A wobbly axis would. As long as you don't have something A la jorden where the days got shorter and it stayed summer anyway you can explain the winters with a tilting axis. A few things could cause that: the comet, a moon that was too close, an asteroid strike in its recent history ...
I'm not sure if a wobble can explain how the planet can have a summer than lasts 7 years followed by a winter that lasts maybe 4 followed by a summer than lasts 2 followed by a winter that lasts 12 etc. That would require an extremely unstable wobble.
All of that said, we were told in the first book that the planet used to have two moons, one of which shattered (releasing dragons into the world). It's dismissed as a fairy story, but it would be interesting if there was something in it and it affected the seasons (especially if this event coincided with the first war against the Others, when it appears the seasons went haywire in the first place).
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All of that said, we were told in the first book that the planet used to have two moons, one of which shattered (releasing dragons into the world). It's dismissed as a fairy story, but it would be interesting if there was something in it and it affected the seasons (especially if this event coincided with the first war against the Others, when it appears the seasons went haywire in the first place).
Losing a Moon could effect the Tilt and Wobble, in fact our Moon is what is thought to stabilize our Axis Wobble within only 2 degrees I think, while Mars has had extreme Axis Wobble of 20+ degrees I think.
Losing a Moon could effect the Tilt and Wobble, in fact our Moon is what is thought to stabilize our Axis Wobble within only 2 degrees I think, while Mars has had extreme Axis Wobble of 20+ degrees I think.
I should point out that Mars has two moons, Phobos and Deimos. However, they're tiny compared to Earth's moon (Phobos is only like 22 km across, compared with our moon's diameter of something like 3500 km) -- they're like little pieces of popcorn.
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Losing a Moon could effect the Tilt and Wobble, in fact our Moon is what is thought to stabilize our Axis Wobble within only 2 degrees I think, while Mars has had extreme Axis Wobble of 20+ degrees I think.I should point out that Mars has two moons, Phobos and Deimos. However, they're tiny compared to Earth's moon (Phobos is only like 22 km across, compared with our moon's diameter of something like 3500 km) -- they're like little pieces of popcorn.
Technically earth has one of those bits of popcorn too. 2010 TK7 although the diameter is thought to be about 300 meters.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Nothing to do with moons, but back to the book. Seriously, can someone explain...
Does Wyman Manderly actually follow through and *DO* anything against the Freys? Does Ramsay Bolton and his gang actually ever find Stannis' army? Fight them? Defeat them? Theon got away from the castle and then staggered into Stannis' camp; presumably he must have gotten away again somehow. One would assume that Ramsay actually did capture Mance, but the rest of it is hard to tell if it's real or just his usual idiotic bluster.
It just seems like kind of a major plot point to handle COMPLETELY OFF-SCREEN.
Just sayin...
Yes, thats a build up that paid off
Wyman Manderly and the Freys
He baked the freys into the meat pie that he was serving. Notice that he was asking Mance for a song about the rat king when he got plastered: the rat king served someones sons to them in a pie.
The rest is cliff hanger (grumble grumble) I'm waiting to see if
Yes, thats a build up that paid off
Wyman Manderly and the Freys
** spoiler omitted **
Well, it seems to me like that part, while heavily implied, is still speculation. We definitely still need an insightful perspective up there.
We definitely still need an insightful perspective up there.
what am I, chopped minstrel? :)
An off the top of my head list
Ayra Stark (hit on the head with an axe)
The hound himself, or rather Sandor Clegane (washed up on an island)
Theon
Brienne of Tarth
Davos Seaworth (twice- going under the water and being alive on the island, and being "killed" , stuffed and mounted over the gate)
The imp (pushed into the water, came to in a sick bed)
Catalyn Start (died, came back wrong)
Asha greyjoy (what is it with him and hitting girls in the heads with axes?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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We definitely still need an insightful perspective up there.what am I, chopped minstrel? :)
An off the top of my head list
** spoiler omitted **
Oh, I don't disagree with the fact that he's done it before. I think I'm just coming to the "had 'nuff" point with that particular literary device. When you do it a few times, it conveys a sense of a dynamic world where things are happening all over the place, and sometimes people elsewhere in the world just are getting wind of stuff going down.
Used as often as he has started using it, though, it feels cheap and lazy, dragging the reader through long and tedious subplots that ultimately go nowhere and probably never had any shot to go anywhere... but then on the subplots that actually seem like they DO have some narrative progression and to be building toward something... you get this off-screen anticlimax, and one that you're often not even sure whether it's factor or rumor.
After reading A Dance with Dragons, I'm calling shenanigans. I may wait for paperback for the next one, should it ever get written.
Technically earth has one of those bits of popcorn too. 2010 TK7 although the diameter is thought to be about 300 meters.
Not exactly -- my understanding is that trojan objects like the one you reference share much the same route around the Sun as a planet (in this case the Earth), but do not actually orbit the said planet?
Technically earth has one of those bits of popcorn too. 2010 TK7 although the diameter is thought to be about 300 meters.Not exactly -- my understanding is that trojan objects like the one you reference share much the same route around the Sun as a planet (in this case the Earth), but do not actually orbit the said planet?
This is correct. Trojan asteroids progress 60 degrees prograde to and 60 degrees retrograde to the smaller mass in an orbiting body system.
That asteroid is as far away from the Earth as the Sun is - 500 light seconds. Luna is about 1.33 light seconds from Earth.
Because of oddities in orbital mechanics and the "speed bump" effect of Earth's gravitation, it takes about 11.2 km/sec to orbit Luna, and about 12 km/sec (but a longer travel time) to visit an Earth leading or trailing Trojan point. Asteroids don't orbit in Trojan points unless they're put there; they tend to librate around them.
(This same libration effect, to lower extremes than 2010 TK7, is why moving between Trojan points is so much more energy efficient.)
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Technically earth has one of those bits of popcorn too. 2010 TK7 although the diameter is thought to be about 300 meters.Not exactly -- my understanding is that trojan objects like the one you reference share much the same route around the Sun as a planet (in this case the Earth), but do not actually orbit the said planet?This is correct. Trojan asteroids progress 60 degrees prograde to and 60 degrees retrograde to the smaller mass in an orbiting body system.
That asteroid is as far away from the Earth as the Sun is - 500 light seconds. Luna is about 1.33 light seconds from Earth.
Because of oddities in orbital mechanics and the "speed bump" effect of Earth's gravitation, it takes about 11.2 km/sec to orbit Luna, and about 12 km/sec (but a longer travel time) to visit an Earth leading or trailing Trojan point. Asteroids don't orbit in Trojan points unless they're put there; they tend to librate around them.
(This same libration effect, to lower extremes than 2010 TK7, is why moving between Trojan points is so much more energy efficient.)
Ah I re-read some of that. I see know says the blind man.