Attacks of Opportunity and the Cleave or Great Cleave feat


Dragon Magazine General Discussion


Let's say a character threatens multiple opponents and one of those opponent's does something to provoke an attack of opportunity [A.o.O.]. The character decides to attack the opponent, succeeds on the attack, and manages to reduce him to 0 hp. According to the Cleave [or Great Cleave] feat, he may immediately make an extra attack against an adjacent foe using the same attack modifiers as the original attack. Can he use the feat in this way because of the result of the AoO?
If so, would this count as his one use of the Cleave feat for the round? [I would think so.]
If he has the Great Cleave feat, then would he be allowed to cleave through multiple opponents because of the success of an AoO?

Frog God Games

My understanding is that only the single attack of opportunity could be made, regardless of the Cleave feat. According to the PHB pg. 137 the AoO occurs outside, or "interrupts", the normal flow of actions in the round. The Cleave feat, however, is a part of the flow of action in that you get an "extra" melee attack (pg. 92) because of the results of your first attack that adds to the normal flow rather than a "free" attack (pg. 137) outside the normal flow.

Also an AoO must be provoked (pg. 137) by someone letting their guard down. This is a special circumstance brought about by the actions of your opponent rather than by your own actions. Only they can choose (intentionally or not) to give you an opening. You can't choose to make a free opening in their defenses based on your own abilities. Your abilities and prowess, rather, are expressed in your number of melee attacks and Cleave feats, etc. which are a part of those attacks. Using the Cleave feat to attack others on an AoO would only work if other threatened opponents likewise let their guard down. And that is handled with the Combat Reflexes feat rather than Cleave or Great Cleave. Even Combat Reflexes which specifically expands on the number of AoO you can have in a round does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity (pg. 137).

I hope that is helpful. It is my understanding of how it works anyway.


What greg said. An attack of opertunity provides a single attack. You cannot use cleave or any other feats to gain extra attacks from an AoO.

This is one of the loopholes they closed in 3.5e. It is specifically aimed at avoiding bag-o-rats style fighters. See Trollbill's unofficial dictionary of common D&D messageboard terminology on bag-o-rats, or if you wanta good read.


Thanks all. That was my thinking too, but I just wanted to be sure I was reading the rules right. The question was posed in the middle of game play and was one we hadn't come across before.


Greg V wrote:
Only [the opponent] can choose (intentionally or not) to give you an opening. You can't choose to make a free opening in their defenses based on your own abilities.

Nitpicking, but that's not entirely true. A rogue (and probably some other prestige classes) with the Opportunist special ability can do just that.

It seems pretty clear on the "one attack per opportunity" thing, though, although the phrasing of the Cleave feats still leaves more wiggle room than I'd have liked.

Frog God Games

Good catch on that Kei. I was thinking in more generalist terms than that, but it is true that the rogue can sometimes make an AoO agauinst someone who hasn't opened themselves up to it. However, even then it's not simply the rogue's choice. The opponent must first have his defenses opened by someone else making a successful attack on him before the rogue can use the opportunist ability.


I could be wrong here, but I'm sure I read somewhere (in a Dragon or the WotC website I think) that you can cleave on an AoO, but can only cleave once/round, so if you cleave in your round you can't cleave on the AoO.


FOr those who don't know, Bag-of-rats is a 3.0 tactic involving a lot of rats, whirlwind attack, and great cleave. 3.5 swarm rules have eliminated this, but I think the new tactic is Bag-of-Cats.


bg2soatob wrote:
FOr those who don't know, Bag-of-rats is a 3.0 tactic involving a lot of rats, whirlwind attack, and great cleave. 3.5 swarm rules have eliminated this, but I think the new tactic is Bag-of-Cats.

Actually, 3.5e cleave-rules put an end to this particular trick


Help me out where would I find the changes to this trick. As far as I can tell with both phb and dmg open in front of me I can't find any restriction on when one can use cleave. I can understand the swarm changes but I dont see anything else. Cleave can only be used once per round (phb92) and great cleave is unlimited per round. (phb 94). Doesn't cleave represnt a continuation of the same swing. (ala 7 flies with one blow?) A cleave would be part of the single attack provided by the AOO then and as long as one had the appropriate feat and the aoo dropped the target everything looks ok.

To the arguement that my guard is still up and my mage friend casts a spell provoking an AOO so I cant be cleaved: My guard is not propbaly expecting a great axe comming through where magic-man was standing nor would it be as steadfast as normal considering said axe just dropped my comrade.

Cleave I think works because the blow was strong enough (str prereq) to tear through the target and continue on to attack the next one. (go conan go!) or by monk through such finesse that they are able to set up combinations.(dont need the str prereq) In either case the fact that a cleave attack is a free action means it is part of the action used to initate it and one should be awarded the cleave even on AOO. Best not put the mage in the front line... he'll probably do more harm than good.

Of course if there is specific rulling in print to the contrary Ill notify Hurok right away!


hewhorocks wrote:
Help me out where would I find the changes to this trick. As far as I can tell with both phb and dmg open in front of me I can't find any restriction on when one can use cleave.

I agree ... I don't see anything in the rules that prevents someone from using Cleave on an AOO. It specifically says that if an attack (it doesn't say normal attack, or standard/full attack) does enough to drop an opponent, there is a free cleave attack. Attacks of opportunity simply provide you an additional attack due to circumstances. I think the limitation is that only one cleave can be done per round ... therefore, if you used it earlier in the round, you can't use it now - and the other side is that if you use it during an AOO first, you can't use it during your attack later.

Combat Reflexes plus Great Cleave can be powerful ... but if you are fighting things that you can kill in one swing on each attack, yeesh ... maybe you should fight some tougher things :)

It's important to note that the cleave/great cleave should be resolved immediately (i.e., if you are going to get multiple AOOs, you can't wait and see what happens with those first).

The bag-o-rats is no longer valid because the Whirlwind feat no longer allows bonus/extra attacks (i.e., via haste, cleave, etc). Perhaps that's the disconnect.

My two copper,
BG


In the sage advice article of dragon 328 (pg 82) there is a nifty little q/a on AOO and how the attacks taken act like any other attack and can prevoke AOO in themselves!

"..An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and is subject to the same rules..."

That pretty much settles it I think. So great cleave with combat reflexes makes the dex-focused combantant very effective against a crowd of 1st level commoners rushing by.

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