Advice on fighter "knight" build. Could it work?

So, after a previous post, I was inspired to see just how much I could cram into one fighter to make her a more true to history type of knight. I dont know how effective this build is but it was a lot of fun to toss together so I really hope it works in more than theory. I used 20 Point buy and will be using my level increases to level 20 to increase charisma once, dex once, and strength 3 times. The character im playing will be a half elf with: Elf blood, low light vision, keen senses, elven immunities, dual minded and fey thoughts (diplomacy and perception). Her traits are: Over protective (drawback), armor expert, indomitable faith, and warrior of old. Stats are as follows:

STR: 17 (15+2) DEX:15 CON:14 INT:12 WIS:7 CHA:13

My selected weapon groups will be heavy blades, bows, and polarms. I plan to use mythral full plate, boots of striding and spriging, heavy steel sheild (most likely turned mythral), ring of protection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, belt of physical perfection, some charisma boosting item, a glaive, longsword, lance, and a composite longbow. (thats all planned for now.)

My feats are in order by level currently.
Power attack,
Quick Draw Deadly aim
DirtyFighting
Furious Focus
Nature Soul
Cleave
Persuasive
Improved Grapple
Animal Ally
Shield Brace
Boon Companion
Mounted Combat
Greater Grapple
Ride-By Attack
Cleaving Finish
Step Up
Throat Slicer
Following Step
Iron Will
Step Up and Strike.

The skills this will have will be 10 ranks Ride, 20 Perception, 10 Handle Animal, and 20 Diplomacy. Thoughts are all welcome as long as they are helpful.

You're trying to do too many different things is my first thought.

Pick things to excel at and don't spread yourself around. Pathfinder doesn't reward being a generalist.

For example, if you're going to do mounted combat you really shouldn't bother with Following Step, Step Up and Strike, or other things involving you not being mounted.

And if you're going to be mounted you should focus on using a lance for obvious reasons. Or being a mounted archer. Either way choose one combat style and stick with it.

You shouldn't try to be an archer, and a lancer, and use a glaive, and a sword.

And Advanced Weapon Training is really good, so you need to choose only one weapon group for it and trade all the other groups in for Advanced Weapon Training abilities.

You're trying to do too many different things is my first thought.

Pick things to excel at and don't spread yourself around. Pathfinder doesn't reward being a generalist.

For example, if you're going to do mounted combat you really shouldn't bother with Following Step, Step Up and Strike, or other things involving you not being mounted.

And if you're going to be mounted you should focus on using a lance for obvious reasons. Or being a mounted archer. Either way choose one combat style and stick with it.

You shouldn't try to be an archer, and a lancer, and use a glaive, and a sword.

And Advanced Weapon Training is really good, so you need to choose only one weapon group for it and trade all the other groups in for Advanced Weapon Training abilities.

I get what you mean but you clearly aren't seeing the point of the build then. A knight I'm medieval history WAS "a generalist" my main focus is on none mounted combat, I have the proper feats to do the other minor focuses "Well enough" as each doesn't really need all that much investment to do what they need to do. The point was to not be hyper focused for once. As every character seems to be.

... Have you considered what you will be doing for WILL saves? Have you mapped out what your modifiers will be at every few levels?

I get what you mean but you clearly aren't seeing the point of the build then. A knight I'm medieval history WAS "a generalist" my main focus is on none mounted combat, I have the proper feats to do the other minor focuses "Well enough" as each doesn't really need all that much investment to do what they need to do. The point was to not be hyper focused for once. As every character seems to be.

I saw what you were doing, it's just that's bad mechanically. You came here asking for advice and asking "can it work?". Well yes, it can work. As long as something is rules legal it "works". But you're question seemed a lot more like "is this something that will work well" and the answer is just flatly no. That's simply not how Pathfidner works.

If you try to do many things in Pathfinder, you do none of them well.

If the rest of your party is going to have non-specialized builds then this could be okay, and it wont particularly matter how you build, as long as the GM can adjust the challenges for the party's abilities.

But if you try to do this in a group where other players will attempt to optimize their characters, you are going to fall behind and will most likely find your character to be lackluster by comparison.

Claxon wrote:

You're trying to do too many different things is my first thought.

Pick things to excel at and don't spread yourself around. Pathfinder doesn't reward being a generalist.

For example, if you're going to do mounted combat you really shouldn't bother with Following Step, Step Up and Strike, or other things involving you not being mounted.

And if you're going to be mounted you should focus on using a lance for obvious reasons. Or being a mounted archer. Either way choose one combat style and stick with it.

You shouldn't try to be an archer, and a lancer, and use a glaive, and a sword.

And Advanced Weapon Training is really good, so you need to choose only one weapon group for it and trade all the other groups in for Advanced Weapon Training abilities.

I get what you mean but you clearly aren't seeing the point of the build then. A knight I'm medieval history WAS "a generalist" my main focus is on none mounted combat, I have the proper feats to do the other minor focuses "Well enough" as each doesn't really need all that much investment to do what they need to do. The point was to not be hyper focused for once. As every character seems to be.

Well, I can assure you a Knight might have been training in a variety of combat styles, but I can guarantee you most of them had a specialization that they preferred to use. It was usually the style they excelled in when they were undergoing training. But that is what the weapon Proficiency represents.

I will side with Claxton on this but that does not mean we can not design you a good build that can allow you to be great at something and mediocre at the other things.

My first advice:

Boon companion- you're giving off 3 feats just to get a mount? Does not seem worth it to me. My advice is to get a wand of Mount and the UMD skill and just not worry about it dying or getting it up a vertical cliff, go into a dungeon or any of the other problems associated with a typical Horse. Those 3 feats will serve you better being in Iron will, Power attack, and Dirty Fighting.

Shield Brace- This requires Shield Focus. It is not on your list but I just wanted to point that out. Typically Dodge>Shield Focus when it comes to getting the +1 AC.

Recommend 1 Level dip into Brawler. Martial Flexibility is an amazing ability to pick things up on the fly and since your doing Power attack and Dirty Fighting then you can pick up a lot of situational feats you might not want to dedicate a feat too. Blind-Fighting, Cleave (really is terrible), Spirited Charge (since your looking at Ride-By), Grapple Feats, Deadly aim, and MORE!!!

Well, you can be a decent switch hitter with just Power Attack and Deadly Aim but you will not be competetitive with anyone who wants to excell at either of those roles. I am not sure why you want a Glaive and a Lance at the same time though. And i would suggest Spirited Charge for a mounted build.

Thematically i would never have associated a medieval Knight with using a bow. Bows and crossbows in general are sort of "peasant" weapons during the age of knights, arent they?

... Have you considered what you will be doing for WILL saves? Have you mapped out what your modifiers will be at every few levels?

The half elf altnerate racial trate gives me +2 to cancel me negative wisdom, I get plus 1 from another trait I have and the cloak of resistance will be a big help. I be also considered a headband of wisdom, I feel ill. Be ok.

The easiest way to get a good will save is to use Advanced Weapon Training and take Armed Bravery. It allows you to add your bravery bonus to your will save.

You can pick up Advanced Weapon Training as a feat, even if you don't want to trade a weapon group At the very least I highly suggest losing Cleave and Cleaving Finish as they are both just terrible feats.

Also, as far as I know nothing of your abilities depends on Charisma except for the social skills you want. Drop charisma back to 10 and raise your Wisdom back up. Will saves are far more important than diplomacy. If anyone else at the table puts any effort into diplomacy they will easily outshine you. I'm not saying you can't put the skill points into it for thematics, but unless you have some other mechanical reason besides social skills to invest in charisma, you shouldn't.

Lets take the feats to the bare minimum and work the build out.

Heavy Blades - Power Attack (done that was easy)

Polearms - Power attack

Bow (If you are just using it for your first turn) - Point Blank and Rapid Shot. I don't think you are going to ahve the dex to support the increasing accuracy penality of deadly aim.

Feat count 3

Mounted Combat:

1) Mobility and Damage - Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge (without spirited charge don't bother with any of the feats because you are spending feats to not full attack)

2) Just ride stop and full attack from you mount (no feats) needed.

feat count 6

Quick Draw to have every thing work.

You need 3 more if you want a mount at full level or you could play a cavilier/samuari.

Levels to completion:

Fighter Human has everything I have laid out by Level 8

Samuari/Cavilier Human has everything I have laid out by Level 6 (depending on archetype)

This is basically a mounted charge build that can use a sword or bow if they want. It also has much more room to develop the bow aspect. only really needing 2 more feats percise shot and manyshot.

ViConstantine wrote:

Claxon wrote:

You're trying to do too many different things is my first thought.

Pick things to excel at and don't spread yourself around. Pathfinder doesn't reward being a generalist.

For example, if you're going to do mounted combat you really shouldn't bother with Following Step, Step Up and Strike, or other things involving you not being mounted.

And if you're going to be mounted you should focus on using a lance for obvious reasons. Or being a mounted archer. Either way choose one combat style and stick with it.

You shouldn't try to be an archer, and a lancer, and use a glaive, and a sword.

And Advanced Weapon Training is really good, so you need to choose only one weapon group for it and trade all the other groups in for Advanced Weapon Training abilities.

I get what you mean but you clearly aren't seeing the point of the build then. A knight I'm medieval history WAS "a generalist" my main focus is on none mounted combat, I have the proper feats to do the other minor focuses "Well enough" as each doesn't really need all that much investment to do what they need to do. The point was to not be hyper focused for once. As every character seems to be.

Well, I can assure you a Knight might have been training in a variety of combat styles, but I can guarantee you most of them had a specialization that they preferred to use. It was usually the style they excelled in when they were undergoing training. But that is what the weapon Proficiency represents.

I will side with Claxton on this but that does not mean we can not design you a good build that can allow you to be great at something and mediocre at the other things.

My first advice:

Boon companion- you're giving off 3 feats just to get a mount? Does not seem worth it to me. My advice is to get a wand of Mount and the UMD skill and just not worry about it dying or getting it up a vertical cliff, go into a dungeon or any of the other problems associated with a typical Horse. Those...

I have played the brawler in the past and martial flexibility is a fantastic ability yes. Though, all of these extra feats I have need to be used for something. I don't like the idea of using martial flexibility for feats I already have planned.the mount umd suggestion is a good one but I don't really have room for the skill. At +1 int I'm only getting 3 skills per level, the would it be worth dropping handle animal? I don't have enough skills to max Umd even if I did drop it. I wanted to point out that the barroom brawler feat gives martial flexibility as does a fighter archetype.

Well, you can be a decent switch hitter with just Power Attack and Deadly Aim but you will not be competetitive with anyone who wants to excell at either of those roles. I am not sure why you want a Glaive and a Lance at the same time though. And i would suggest Spirited Charge for a mounted build.

Thematically i would never have associated a medieval Knight with using a bow. Bows and crossbows in general are sort of "peasant" weapons during the age of knights, arent they?

You're correct that knights were almost exclusively melee combatants, however bows weren't really a "peasant" weapon. Especially in England, bows had such absolutely massive draw weights that you had to be a full-time soldier to ever be proficient with them. We're talking draw weights so heavy that the bones of their shoulders would fuse together to withstand the strain on the body. That meant that they could punch through plate armor like cardboard, but no peasant could pick it up and wield it. It required a lot of skill to aim and fire. Crossbows, however, were easier to both aim and use as winches were created to allow for mechanical advantage in priming the crossbow. Other peasant weapons included things like spears.

A knight wasn't really trained in the use of a bow. They often focused on mounted combat and within that wielded specific weapons; the type of weapon largely depended on the state of armor at that time, since different weapons were quite effective against various kinds of armor.

The easiest way to get a good will save is to use Advanced Weapon Training and take Armed Bravery. It allows you to add your bravery bonus to your will save.

You can pick up Advanced Weapon Training as a feat, even if you don't want to trade a weapon group At the very least I highly suggest losing Cleave and Cleaving Finish as they are both just terrible feats.

Also, as far as I know nothing of your abilities depends on Charisma except for the social skills you want. Drop charisma back to 10 and raise your Wisdom back up. Will saves are far more important than diplomacy. If anyone else at the table puts any effort into diplomacy they will easily outshine you. I'm not saying you can't put the skill points into it for thematics, but unless you have some other mechanical reason besides social skills to invest in charisma, you shouldn't.

The advanced bravery I knew about but forgot it's name, now that I know it should be very helpful information.

I understand why cleave is bad but what is so bad about cleaning finish?

Diplomacy. It's fun and I want to and it fits the build. there's my reason.

Torbyne wrote:

Well, you can be a decent switch hitter with just Power Attack and Deadly Aim but you will not be competetitive with anyone who wants to excell at either of those roles. I am not sure why you want a Glaive and a Lance at the same time though. And i would suggest Spirited Charge for a mounted build.

Thematically i would never have associated a medieval Knight with using a bow. Bows and crossbows in general are sort of "peasant" weapons during the age of knights, arent they?

You're correct that knights were almost exclusively melee combatants, however bows weren't really a "peasant" weapon. Especially in England, bows had such absolutely massive draw weights that you had to be a full-time soldier to ever be proficient with them. We're talking draw weights so heavy that the bones of their shoulders would fuse together to withstand the strain on the body. That meant that they could punch through plate armor like cardboard, but no peasant could pick it up and wield it. It required a lot of skill to aim and fire. Crossbows, however, were easier to both aim and use as winches were created to allow for mechanical advantage in priming the crossbow. Other peasant weapons included things like spears.

A knight wasn't really trained in the use of a bow. They often focused on mounted combat and within that wielded specific weapons; the type of weapon largely depended on the state of armor at that time, since different weapons were quite effective against various kinds of armor.

English long bows are their own thing but even then, they were a peasant weapon. Archery was a required practice by english law in many periods.

Going back to the build plan, arent you incappable of using a longbow while mounted? I thought you had to use shortbows for some reason...

Lets take the feats to the bare minimum and work the build out.

Heavy Blades - Power Attack (done that was easy)

Polearms - Power attack

Bow (If you are just using it for your first turn) - Point Blank and Rapid Shot. I don't think you are going to ahve the dex to support the increasing accuracy penality of deadly aim.

Feat count 3

Mounted Combat:

1) Mobility and Damage - Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge (without spirited charge don't bother with any of the feats because you are spending feats to not full attack)

2) Just ride stop and full attack from you mount (no feats) needed.

feat count 6

Quick Draw to have every thing work.

You need 3 more if you want a mount at full level or you could play a cavilier/samuari.

Levels to completion:

Fighter Human has everything I have laid out by Level 8

Samuari/Cavilier Human has everything I have laid out by Level 6 (depending on archetype)

This is basically a mounted charge build that can use a sword or bow if they want. It also has much more room to develop the bow aspect. only really needing 2 more feats percise shot and manyshot.

I appreciate it. It looks like what I wanted to build wasn't too far off from your suggestion. I do want to find a way to work in dirty fighting and improved/ greater grapple as it was common for knights who fought other knights to wrestle each other to the ground to go in for the kill to the visor with a small blade of some kind. Hence throat slitter.

Lets take the feats to the bare minimum and work the build out.

Heavy Blades - Power Attack (done that was easy)

Polearms - Power attack

Bow (If you are just using it for your first turn) - Point Blank and Rapid Shot. I don't think you are going to ahve the dex to support the increasing accuracy penality of deadly aim.

Feat count 3

Mounted Combat:

1) Mobility and Damage - Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge (without spirited charge don't bother with any of the feats because you are spending feats to not full attack)

2) Just ride stop and full attack from you mount (no feats) needed.

feat count 6

Quick Draw to have every thing work.

You need 3 more if you want a mount at full level or you could play a cavilier/samuari.

Levels to completion:

Fighter Human has everything I have laid out by Level 8

Samuari/Cavilier Human has everything I have laid out by Level 6 (depending on archetype)

This is basically a mounted charge build that can use a sword or bow if they want. It also has much more room to develop the bow aspect. only really needing 2 more feats percise shot and manyshot.

This is a great way to start working out these types of builds.

I should mention the feat Big Game Hunter. +1 to hit, +2 damage on any creature Large+. Later in the game 8+ this is a common size of foes (Dragons, Demons, ogres, trolls, ext.) This feat will be of help no matter what weapon you are holding.

JDPhipps wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Well, you can be a decent switch hitter with just Power Attack and Deadly Aim but you will not be competetitive with anyone who wants to excell at either of those roles. I am not sure why you want a Glaive and a Lance at the same time though. And i would suggest Spirited Charge for a mounted build.

Thematically i would never have associated a medieval Knight with using a bow. Bows and crossbows in general are sort of "peasant" weapons during the age of knights, arent they?

You're correct that knights were almost exclusively melee combatants, however bows weren't really a "peasant" weapon. Especially in England, bows had such absolutely massive draw weights that you had to be a full-time soldier to ever be proficient with them. We're talking draw weights so heavy that the bones of their shoulders would fuse together to withstand the strain on the body. That meant that they could punch through plate armor like cardboard, but no peasant could pick it up and wield it. It required a lot of skill to aim and fire. Crossbows, however, were easier to both aim and use as winches were created to allow for mechanical advantage in priming the crossbow. Other peasant weapons included things like spears.

A knight wasn't really trained in the use of a bow. They often focused on mounted combat and within that wielded specific weapons; the type of weapon largely depended on the state of armor at that time, since different weapons were quite effective against various kinds of armor.

English long bows are their own thing but even then, they were a peasant weapon. Archery was a required practice by english law in many periods.

Going back to the build plan, arent you incappable of using a longbow while mounted? I thought you had to use shortbows for some reason...

From what I understand, bows can be used mounted, any kind, but you take a penalty, there is a feat that reduces the penalty by I think half.

Grandlounge wrote:

Lets take the feats to the bare minimum and work the build out.

Heavy Blades - Power Attack (done that was easy)

Polearms - Power attack

Bow (If you are just using it for your first turn) - Point Blank and Rapid Shot. I don't think you are going to ahve the dex to support the increasing accuracy penality of deadly aim.

Feat count 3

Mounted Combat:

1) Mobility and Damage - Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge (without spirited charge don't bother with any of the feats because you are spending feats to not full attack)

2) Just ride stop and full attack from you mount (no feats) needed.

feat count 6

Quick Draw to have every thing work.

You need 3 more if you want a mount at full level or you could play a cavilier/samuari.

Levels to completion:

Fighter Human has everything I have laid out by Level 8

Samuari/Cavilier Human has everything I have laid out by Level 6 (depending on archetype)

This is basically a mounted charge build that can use a sword or bow if they want. It also has much more room to develop the bow aspect. only really needing 2 more feats percise shot and manyshot.

This is a great way to start working out these types of builds.

I should mention the feat Big Game Hunter. +1 to hit, +2 damage on any creature Large+. Later in the game 8+ this is a common size of foes (Dragons, Demons, ogres, trolls, ext.) This feat will be of help no matter what weapon you are holding.

I swear you always come to my threads with cool and interesting feats I never knew existed :) so how about this? I was thinking of dropping the feats for the evolving mount and animal companion which gives me 3 open feats, I'll also drop the shield brace since I can't use it and get dodge instead. I also consider dropping cleave and great cleave. Giving me 5 open I believe.

My understanding of armored grappling is standing armlocks to control and ultimately disarm and triping and basic throw to get someone on the ground. Grapple does not replicate this that well disarm or trip may be more repersentative.

Either way you can make those combat manuver feats the next 2 feats in the builds I offered. I would pick your specialization, get the core feats and then build versatility.

You can also make your shield throwing so you can drop it as a free action to help switch combat styles more fluildly.

My understanding of armored grappling is standing armlocks to control and ultimately disarm and triping and basic throw to get someone on the ground. Grapple does not replicate this that well disarm or trip may be more repersentative.

Either way you can make those combat manuver feats the next 2 feats in the builds I offered. I would pick your specialization, get the core feats and then build versatility.

You can also make your shield throwing so you can drop it as a free action to help switch combat styles more fluildly.

Thats a fair assessment though both medieval grappling and grappling in this game end the same, in a pin in the best case scenario that is. I also dont like the idea of giving up throat slicer though if I must it would most likely be for a trip line of feats. Your suggestions will be a great help. Id like very much to let my longsword + shield or my glaive be my primary weapon. I also feel I should mention that I have a lance as well simply because I understand the need for one when mounted, it really is the best weapon I could choose for that and I understand its need.

Shield brace I believe you can use one you have armor training.
Characters with the armor training class
feature can ignore the Shield Focus feat as a prerequisite
for shield mastery feats.
Shield Brace (Shield Mastery)

yeah, so as long as you wait till lv3 you can have shield brace no problem.

what is the source for Big game hunter?

There's always a big temptation in Pathfinder to diversify, and it's definitely possible to do this well. However, you need to do so with an eye for an effectiveness. It's very easy to invest a few feats in something and find you just never use it because you're only barely adequate with it. The Fighter is an iffy pick for a class if you want to use a variety of weapons; as a class it lends itself heavily towards focusing in a single weapon type to the exclusion of all others. That's not to say you can't vary things up, but you will almost certainly find that your fighter ends up being just plain better with one of his weapon types than any other. Specializing in one weapon type also opens up improved critical and the critical focus feats at higher levels, which is huge for a fighter.

If you are going to stick with Fighter, I recommend picking up the Advanced Weapon Training options for Armed Bravery and Versatile Training. These will greatly alleviate your issues with will saves and skill points, and also bolster your diplomacy check nicely.

I would recommend dropping the shield entirely. There's nothing wrong with having a shield (especially at low levels) that you pull out when appropriate, but most of the time you're going to want the extra damage boost of two-handing a weapon.

I would say drop your dexterity to 14 and your charisma to 12. Having 14 dexterity is sufficient to fire a ranged weapon adequately. You will never be a ranged specialist with a build like this, but pulling a bow out and loosing a few shots doesn't require any special feats. For charisma, you really don't get much bang for your buck. Even 12 is a bit high on 20 point buy, to be honest, but should be doable in a pinch.

In the long-term, you should focus exclusively on the lance. Swapping from lance to sword to bow is perfectly fine at low levels, but in terms of your weapon training just focus primarily in lance. You basically won't be using your sword at a certain point because your lance attack will be so much better. Nothing wrong with having a backup weapon of another type, but don't bother investing any feats in them. You definitely want the Spirited Charge feat as soon as possible.

In terms of feats, there's lots of fat here to trim. The Cleave line is pretty lackluster. If your GM keeps sending swarms of weak enemies to surround you it works well, but often times you'll land a killing blow only to find there are no other targets in range. Furious Focus is a terrible feat; it looks good on paper, but when you run the math it's very lackluster and not at all worthwhile. The improved grapple line is kinda meh; if you aren't totally specialized in grapple, you rarely want to do it. The Step Up feat line is overpriced for what it is; I'd drop it personally. Even if you eliminate only a couple of these, that should open up a lot of feats.

Shield brace I believe you can use one you have armor training.

Characters with the armor training class
feature can ignore the Shield Focus feat as a prerequisite
for shield mastery feats.
Shield Brace (Shield Mastery)

yeah, so as long as you wait till lv3 you can have shield brace no problem.

what is the source for Big game hunter?

Rise of the Runelords

It is a Local feat but it is a good one when fighting lots of Large+ enemies.

Big game hunter is in Rise of the Runelords Player’s Guide and Pathfinder Player Companion: People of the North.

The later is only against animal.

Shield brace I believe you can use one you have armor training.

Characters with the armor training class
feature can ignore the Shield Focus feat as a prerequisite
for shield mastery feats.
Shield Brace (Shield Mastery)

yeah, so as long as you wait till lv3 you can have shield brace no problem.

what is the source for Big game hunter?

I didnt know that about the armor training class feature so thank you very much.

There's always a big temptation in Pathfinder to diversify, and it's definitely possible to do this well. However, you need to do so with an eye for an effectiveness. It's very easy to invest a few feats in something and find you just never use it because you're only barely adequate with it. The Fighter is an iffy pick for a class if you want to use a variety of weapons; as a class it lends itself heavily towards focusing in a single weapon type to the exclusion of all others. That's not to say you can't vary things up, but you will almost certainly find that your fighter ends up being just plain better with one of his weapon types than any other. Specializing in one weapon type also opens up improved critical and the critical focus feats at higher levels, which is huge for a fighter.

If you are going to stick with Fighter, I recommend picking up the Advanced Weapon Training options for Armed Bravery and Versatile Training. These will greatly alleviate your issues with will saves and skill points, and also bolster your diplomacy check nicely.

I would recommend dropping the shield entirely. There's nothing wrong with having a shield (especially at low levels) that you pull out when appropriate, but most of the time you're going to want the extra damage boost of two-handing a weapon.

I would say drop your dexterity to 14 and your charisma to 12. Having 14 dexterity is sufficient to fire a ranged weapon adequately. You will never be a ranged specialist with a build like this, but pulling a bow out and loosing a few shots doesn't require any special feats. For charisma, you really don't get much bang for your buck. Even 12 is a bit high on 20 point buy, to be honest, but should be doable in a pinch.

In the long-term, you should focus exclusively on the lance. Swapping from lance to sword to bow is perfectly fine at low levels, but in terms of your weapon training just focus primarily in lance. You basically won't be using your sword at a certain point because your lance attack will be so...

I dont see your reasoning for dropping the stats as the most I could achieve out of dropping them is raising my str by 1 point.

I plan to keep the shield but will most likely only be using it situationally as you are right ill be two handing more often than not. The armored bravery was already mentioned once but is still a wonderful idea. I also think that the versatile training is an absolutely amazing ability i didnt know was an option and im very glad you pointed it out. Ill be taking it for sure.
If i were to specialize in a weapon it would be my sword or my glaive as to be honest with you. I hate lances. Im not interested in them at all and if im not interested, regardless of how strong they are, i wont be having fun and thats what matters. I have the lance because i know how effective it is and I understand that, I simply dont care for them and would rather specialize in a different weapon though I understand and appreciate the suggestion very much.

As it looks now my feats will go in order something like this. Ive considered most of your suggestions and as such it should look something along the lines of:

Power attack, quick draw
deadly aim
dirty fighting
furious focus
point-blank shot
rapid shot
persuasive
improved grapple (or trip)
big game hunter
dodge (or shield brace since I still qualify)
advanced weapon training (versatile training)
mounted combat
greater grapple (or trip)
Ride-by-attack
Spirited charge
step up
throat slicer (this may be replaced with iron will if I dont go grapple)
following step up
advanced armor training (armed bravery)
step up and strike.

I might drop the step up line but as it stands now I cant find a good enough reason to as in the past its been such a wonderful feat line and has helped me so much.

I also traded the warrior of old trait in favor of Princess :) i think it would help make a funny/ and fun background and the diplomacy skill will get a plus 1 and class skill out of it so I have room to replace diplomacy from fey thoughts with UMD.

it should work.

Bet you though that around lv5-8 you'll realize that you only use your one magic weapon and the feats for the weapons you don't use you wish you had gotten different feats. (it'll be your archery, since you don't have precise shot nor improved you'll be taking -4's and -8's all over the place trying to do ranged and thus you'll never do ranged. Cause a round doing ranged is a round not doing melee.

But like you have power attack, full bab and fighter's weapon training to help keep you at a minimum viable baseline.

I dont see your reasoning for dropping the stats as the most I could achieve out of dropping them is raising my str by 1 point.

Three points, actually. Your current plan calls for spending your 4th and 8th level stat advancements to bring your dexterity and charisma up to 16 and 14 respectively. By leaving them at 14 and 12 this is not needed, and you can spend those advancements on strength. This raises your strength score three points above where it would have otherwise been. On a melee fighter, that's a pretty big deal. Alternately you can buy back some wisdom, because 7 wisdom is really worrisome.

I also think that the versatile training is an absolutely amazing ability i didnt know was an option and im very glad you pointed it out. Ill be taking it for sure.

I remember when I was reading it for the first time and thinking "this is going on literally every single class Fighter that I build from now on". Such an efficient way of alleviating so many of the Fighter's issue with a single feat-equivalent.

Don't underestimate Armed Bravery, either. It takes a bit longer to mature since the numbers start low, but at higher levels it's a real must-have. With your problematic wisdom that's a pretty big deal.

If i were to specialize in a weapon it would be my sword or my glaive as to be honest with you. I hate lances.

Fair enough, although with mounted combat lances are kinda crazy. In any event, my point stands that as a Fighter you'll usually end up with one dominant fighting style outperforming any others. It's partly a consequence of Weapon Training (one weapon class necessarily has a higher bonus than the others) and partly a consequence of the fact that the Fighter is so feat-based (feats tend to be narrowly crafted so they apply to only one fighting style...) but it makes it really hard to play a fighter that has lots of bonuses that apply equally to different fighting styles.

Swapping between Lance and Glaive should be fine... although when you're mounted that huge damage bonus on mounted charges kinda makes the lance insane. No other weapon in the game has bonus anything quite like that.

.... At +1 int I'm only getting 3 skills per level, ...

If you're playing a human then you get a bonus skill point each level.

ViConstantine wrote:

.... At +1 int I'm only getting 3 skills per level, ...

If you're playing a human then you get a bonus skill point each level.

I'm a half elf

As a half elf consider arcane training. It's not that knightly but it will make your character more versatile and help compansate a little for the lack of focus.

As a half elf consider arcane training. It's not that knightly but it will make your character more versatile and help compansate a little for the lack of focus.

I'm already planning to take Umd.it would be useful indeed though I'd lose my + 2 to will saves if I did.

Has anyone asked about the cavalier class? As a class with more knightly skills, a built-in mount feature, and nearly as many bonus feats, you might have better luck.

Has anyone asked about the cavalier class? As a class with more knightly skills, a built-in mount feature, and nearly as many bonus feats, you might have better luck.

I don't want to play a cavalier hebse why I went fighter. Cavalier get a less bonus feats, teamwork feats, no bonuses to armor or weapons, and is far too reliant on mounts for me. I have no interest.

Mergy wrote:

Has anyone asked about the cavalier class? As a class with more knightly skills, a built-in mount feature, and nearly as many bonus feats, you might have better luck.

I don't want to play a cavalier hebse why I went fighter. Cavalier get a less bonus feats, teamwork feats, no bonuses to armor or weapons, and is far too reliant on mounts for me. I have no interest.

Cavaliers get fewer bonus feats to be sure, but you're also spending 3 feats to get an animal companion that they get for free. If you don't like Tactician, then you can use the Gendarme archetype which, including the 3 feats you're spending to get the horse, is only 1 feat behind at level 20.

Bonuses to armour and weapons? A cavalier's order abilities and challenge ability give you better defences as well as far more offence against tough opponents. You have no AC penalty to your ride check while mounted, and your charges are far more devastating.

I'm just a little confused why fighter is your go-to when your entire concept is the reason the cavalier class was created.

ViConstantine wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Has anyone asked about the cavalier class? As a class with more knightly skills, a built-in mount feature, and nearly as many bonus feats, you might have better luck.

I don't want to play a cavalier hebse why I went fighter. Cavalier get a less bonus feats, teamwork feats, no bonuses to armor or weapons, and is far too reliant on mounts for me. I have no interest.

Cavaliers get fewer bonus feats to be sure, but you're also spending 3 feats to get an animal companion that they get for free. If you don't like Tactician, then you can use the Gendarme archetype which, including the 3 feats you're spending to get the horse, is only 1 feat behind at level 20.

Bonuses to armour and weapons? A cavalier's order abilities and challenge ability give you better defences as well as far more offence against tough opponents. You have no AC penalty to your ride check while mounted, and your charges are far more devastating.

I'm just a little confused why fighter is your go-to when your entire concept is the reason the cavalier class was created.

I'm not taking the 3 feats for an animal mount any more.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the fighter's built in bonus feat retraining. I would reccomend the OP take any of the feats that everyone is calling iffy as bonus feats so he can retrain them for free. IE if you want to play with cleave early on, take it and retrain it at lv4 or 8

ViConstantine wrote:

I get what you mean but you clearly aren't seeing the point of the build then. A knight I'm medieval history WAS "a generalist" my main focus is on none mounted combat, I have the proper feats to do the other minor focuses "Well enough" as each doesn't really need all that much investment to do what they need to do. The point was to not be hyper focused for once. As every character seems to be.

I saw what you were doing, it's just that's bad mechanically. You came here asking for advice and asking "can it work?". Well yes, it can work. As long as something is rules legal it "works". But you're question seemed a lot more like "is this something that will work well" and the answer is just flatly no. That's simply not how Pathfidner works.

If you try to do many things in Pathfinder, you do none of them well.

If the rest of your party is going to have non-specialized builds then this could be okay, and it wont particularly matter how you build, as long as the GM can adjust the challenges for the party's abilities.

But if you try to do this in a group where other players will attempt to optimize their characters, you are going to fall behind and will most likely find your character to be lackluster by comparison.

I think there is a middle ground, here: somewhere in between being awesome at 1 thing and sucky at everything and being meh at everything, so good for nothing.

I think there are ways of being good at a few things. I have just such a character build up to level 2 right now in Pathfinder Society.

For instance, I want to be a good archer, She is a level 2 Ranger with the Freebotter Archetype. She has Precise Shot, as her Bonus Feat, not bothering with Point Blank Shot. Freebooter's Bane lets her mark any 1 opponent as the whole party's Favored Enemy--+1 Attack and Damage. Having even 1 level in Ranger allows you to use a Wand of Gravity Bow: 2d6 Damage. Boom: for 2 levels, you get a general +1 for everyone, you can shoot into Melee, and you do 2d6 Damage/shot.

At level 1, Rangers can also use Wands of Lead Blades. She has a Cold Iron Greatsword and an Alchemal Silver Earthbreaker. With 1 charge of her Wand, they do 3d6/hit. She also has Cleave

She's good in Melee. She's good at Range.

To be a good Grappler, She's going to take 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent, with the Constable Archetype. The level 2 OotP ability is Expert Captor, which will allow her to Tie Up an opponent she has Grappled--not Pinned--and without the usual -10. So when she gets Greater Grapple, she'll be able to Grapple and Tie Up a single opponent in 1 round. She'll also take Great Cleave and Broken Wing Gambit, so she'll be able to mow down squads of soldiers with her 3d6 Greatsword like harvest wheat (then provide the best medical care for them she can afterwards OotP try very hard to never kill.). She gives out (and gets) Attacks of Opportunity to her allies, and she's still a very solid archer. Good at Range, Good in Melee, Good against multiple opponents, good against single opponents.

She'll take levels in Alchemist with the Grenadier Archetype, so she'll start shooting exploding arrows: Alchemal Missile and Explosive Missile. She'll grow a Tentacle and a Protector Crab Tumor Familiar for even better Grappling.

My character isn't going to be a knight, not really going for Mounted Combat, but I hope some of my ideas could help shape the OP's quest for a generalized, yet effective character.

I understand why cleave is bad but what is so bad about cleaning finish?

Diplomacy. It's fun and I want to and it fits the build. there's my reason.

I'm not saying you can't put ranks in diplomacy, I'm just saying don't raise your charisma just for this. It's not worth it, nor is selective channel.

Cleaving finish is bad because it requires cleave as a prerequisite and it's very rare that you drop a monster unconscious and have another creature within reach. Even with 10ft reach it's still pretty unlikely unless your GM always makes enemies bunch up. In my experience it's just not a very likely situation.

The easiest way to get a good will save is to use Advanced Weapon Training and take Armed Bravery. It allows you to add your bravery bonus to your will save.

My favorite way to get good saves is to multiclass. If he wants to take Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike is a Prerequisite for that. So, I'd have him dip a level in Monk. He gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple as Bonus Feats. He gets 1d6 Damage on his Unarmed Strikes instead of the usual 1d3. He gets a bunch more Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. And he gets +2 on all his Saving Throws, including Will.

Claxon wrote:

The easiest way to get a good will save is to use Advanced Weapon Training and take Armed Bravery. It allows you to add your bravery bonus to your will save.

My favorite way to get good saves is to multiclass. If he wants to take Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike is a Prerequisite for that. So, I'd have him dip a level in Monk. He gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple as Bonus Feats. He gets 1d6 Damage on his Unarmed Strikes instead of the usual 1d3. He gets a bunch more Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. And he gets +2 on all his Saving Throws, including Will.

I don't need to multiclass for that. Neither do I NEED improved unarmed strike. "Dirty fighting" counts as that for feats.

So, I just had a realization. I could in theory take the archetype: martial master which drops my weapon training class feature. Big loss yea but consider this, it adds the martial flexibility line of abilities progressively as you level. They are almost identical or totally identical to the brawler and so when I switch weapons I can gain feats for them on the fly to use them better in place of max +4 to one weapon type and a descending bonus to a few other groups as originally planned.

Yes, you can be worse and trade away your class feature in exchange for being slower to get into a fight and being slightly better at being bad.

This character really depends on what "minimum viable" is for your table/group. You can keep trading away good stuff for bad stuff cause character as long as you fulfill your role for the table.

Like at some tables starting with 18 str makes your character OP.
Some tables 18 str, full bab, and some sort of combat steroid is the the benchmark to be checking against (so like 3/4 just need a bigger steroid to make up for non-full bab).

So if your table only needs 18 str to be OP having 16 str and eventually 18 str and nothing else will be fine.
If your table is more like the later and assumes a higher minimum value then you trading away everything to have lower numbers will fall behind and begin to be outclassed. Like, having the bard or cleric doing more damage than you, with another full martial doing more than them, and with all of them being far better at your skills than you, not each being better than all, but between them having your skills covered better.

So yes, you can trade away your WT (which includes your will save fix) for martial flexibility to get WF with your current weapon as a move action.

In the case of martial master you would likely want to use dedicated adversary anyway if you are burning a move action.

Really, I think the fighter is the wrong class to build a full plate wearing knight with a squire toting a golf bag of different weapons around. I'd say a Armored Hulk Barbarian is the best fit, followed by a Cavalier or Samuari, followed by Slayer.

Theses classes all punish you less for being a weapon generalist, because rage, challenge, and studied target don't care about what weapon you use. Unless you're using automatic bonus progression, you're still going to fall behind when you need to get multiple magic weapons.

Fighters are pushed to specialize in a specific weapon group, and there isn't a "knightly" weapon group.

Speaking of specialization: it's true that if you focus everything on one weapon group you'll be very exceedingly good at that group, but then what do you do when the combat situation calls for something else? You probably need to be at least reasonably effective with a (good) melee weapon and a (good) ranged weapon. Now, given a flying mount you could be in melee with anyone who's in range of you, but that would take a while to arrange.

A build like this should probably focus on the sorts of feats that benefit all the weapon types they're using... two at most, I think.

but then what do you do when the combat situation calls for something else?

At low levels you don't need any feat or class feature investment in an alternate form of attack. A high strength score and decent dexterity score with a composite longbow on its own is pretty decent. At higher levels, you ensure you have access to stuff like flight. Especially with the Flight Mastery feat, fighters can now get access to a 1/day Fly SLA at the cost of a single feat (and a few skill points to meet its prereq). Even with core only there are magic items that do the trick. This is a much lower investment than trying to split your progression between multiple fighting styles, and results in a much stronger character overall.

Fighters, despite having so many feats, actually are better specialists than generalists. They have few skill points, but are capable of putting out metric buttloads of damage in one or maybe two different ways. They have only limited mobility (moving in heavy armour doesn't count as mobility), and almost no out-of-combat utility. Due to lack of skill points, no class features to boost it, and no benefit from raising the Charisma stat, fighters are probably the worst class at Diplomacy.

As mentioned in another post, good generalist full BAB classes include the barbarian, the ranger, the slayer, paladin, and the cavalier. All of them gain bonuses to their attack and damage no matter what weapons they use. All of them gain more skill points than the fighter, and all but the barbarian have more out-of-combat utility.

Pick the fighter if you want to be a DPR turret as an archer, or a greatsword wielding damage monstrocity. Pick a ranger or a cavalier if you want to have Diplomacy, it wouldn't hurt to pick a class that gains something from a Charisma score. Actually, what's wrong with paladin?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Claxon wrote:

The easiest way to get a good will save is to use Advanced Weapon Training and take Armed Bravery. It allows you to add your bravery bonus to your will save.

My favorite way to get good saves is to multiclass. If he wants to take Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike is a Prerequisite for that. So, I'd have him dip a level in Monk. He gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple as Bonus Feats. He gets 1d6 Damage on his Unarmed Strikes instead of the usual 1d3. He gets a bunch more Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. And he gets +2 on all his Saving Throws, including Will.

I don't need to multiclass for that. Neither do I NEED improved unarmed strike. "Dirty fighting" counts as that for feats.

I stand corrected: I had forgotten that Dirty Fighting fulfills both the prerequisites Combat Expertise and Improved Unarmed Strike.

But I stand behind my advice. Taking a level in Monk will give you Improved Grapple, which you want, +2 on all your saving throws, which you should want, and a whole bunch of exotic weapon proficiencies, which you suggested you kind of like. It's a swell idea for a Martial character who wants to diversify his portfolio with Improved Grapple and other things.