Going Down, Down, Down...

Wait. What?

Gnomes of Golarion came out May and Orcs of Golarion came out in August, both of 2010. Neither of them have been out for one full year and they're already out of print and almost "out of stock for good?"

I thought I wasn't supposed to think of Paizo products as if they were magazines anymore. I thought there were second printings and stuff.

Wait. What?

Gnomes of Golarion came out May and Orcs of Golarion came out in August, both of 2010. Neither of them have been out for one full year and they're already out of print and almost "out of stock for good?"

I thought I wasn't supposed to think of Paizo products as if they were magazines anymore. I thought there were second printings and stuff.

We reprint our hardcovers when we need to, but it isn't cost effective to reprint most of our other lines. We try to gage how many copies we need to print to make a product last a good three to four years, but sometimes we way underestimate. The Companion line of products is a good example. With the explosion of the Pathfinder RPG, those products are selling much faster, and thus they are going out of stock more quickly.

So get them now while you can!

-Lisa

We reprint our hardcovers when we need to, but it isn't cost effective to reprint most of our other lines. We try to gage how many copies we need to print to make a product last a good three to four years, but sometimes we way underestimate.

-Lisa

Does that mean that the more recent planet stories books are selling better than expected as well, since there are a number of those on the list?

This is also one of the benefits and selling points of subscribing as you are always assured to get your book.

I can't believe that black dragon is still left. It's a quality miniature and a steal! I guess it's because people don't want a rider, but at that price, who cares? Make him a special villain who barely escapes several times.

Drakli wrote:

Wait. What?

Gnomes of Golarion came out May and Orcs of Golarion came out in August, both of 2010. Neither of them have been out for one full year and they're already out of print and almost "out of stock for good?"

I thought I wasn't supposed to think of Paizo products as if they were magazines anymore. I thought there were second printings and stuff.

We reprint our hardcovers when we need to, but it isn't cost effective to reprint most of our other lines. We try to gage how many copies we need to print to make a product last a good three to four years, but sometimes we way underestimate. The Companion line of products is a good example. With the explosion of the Pathfinder RPG, those products are selling much faster, and thus they are going out of stock more quickly.

So get them now while you can!

-Lisa

If they're selling that well, doesn't that fact make them worth reprinting?

I can't believe that black dragon is still left. It's a quality miniature and a steal! I guess it's because people don't want a rider, but at that price, who cares? Make him a special villain who barely escapes several times.

or buy a couple and practice your x-acto knife/green stuff fu on.

Wait. What?

Gnomes of Golarion came out May and Orcs of Golarion came out in August, both of 2010. Neither of them have been out for one full year and they're already out of print and almost "out of stock for good?"

I thought I wasn't supposed to think of Paizo products as if they were magazines anymore. I thought there were second printings and stuff.

Agreed and seconded. It kind of makes me feel pressured to buy their books now. I understand that it cost Paizo money to print books yet at the same time while I am not broke I just cannot rush out and buy ever PF product for fear it will no longer be printed. Yes I know I can buy the PDF version but prefer print. i could understand if it was products with 3.5 rules and pre-Pathfinder but stuff that has been out for a year kind of strikes me as unwise for them ot do as a company. Espcially the popular stuff.

If they're selling that well, doesn't that fact make them worth reprinting?

Again seconded. If anything that would encourage Paizo to print more not less.

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

If they're selling that well, doesn't that fact make them worth reprinting?

Again seconded. If anything that would encourage Paizo to print more not less.

There is a long post by Vic about reprinting, and the decision process about when it is a valid option and when it is not somewhere... I will try to find it

edit Here it is

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

If they're selling that well, doesn't that fact make them worth reprinting?

Again seconded. If anything that would encourage Paizo to print more not less.

They do adjust their future print runs to reflect sales numbers. However, due to the long printing/ship from china cycle, it takes about 6 months before the changes come in effect.

They do reprint a product if it sells at a fast enough rate that a reprint would be profitable, see Adventurer's Armory. But a reprint doesn't drive a spike of sales like the initial release, so something can sell "good" but still not be profitable enough for a reprint. Unless they print as many as they did the first time, the cost per unit goes up.

I suspect that we will eventually see a hardcover Races of Golarion that collects all of the race books and revises the older ones to Pathfinder. But they don't want to release that too close to the last race book (humans isn't even out yet) so I would expect to see it at least a year from now.

I think they underestimated the sales of the companion line as an impulse buy.

The only one on this list that concerns me is Seeker of Secrets, since it is a Core Assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized play. As new players join, this is a "must need" book for them. Are you trying to tell me that PFS has hit a saturation point were no more players will join and play? I know of at least three GMs locally who are in need of this book... and have no recourse but to buy it from Paizo now (after seeing this), since most of the distributors are out. And now it looks like they will not be reprinted either. If so, I feel this is a bad decision; a lot of FLGS carry Paizo product with the expectation that they can always get more if need be when they run out of stock. Not reprinting hurts them more than Paizo.

I can't believe that black dragon is still left. It's a quality miniature and a steal! I guess it's because people don't want a rider, but at that price, who cares? Make him a special villain who barely escapes several times.

I already have one. I'm tempted to buy a second and remove the rider...

I've got to admit that as a new player, just coming into the game, this is a bit of a pain. PDFs are an alternative for books, but with so many flip-mats, map packs and so on going out of print, those of us who weren't customers during the initial printing (and who can't afford a $200 cart now to catch up) are going to be out of luck on having access to any of these products, even if we play for years to come.

The guy who starts playing a year from now and wants some mats and tiles for his games will be pretty much out of luck, as half of the choices look like they will be gone for good.

Does that mean that the more recent planet stories books are selling better than expected as well, since there are a number of those on the list?

There is a little of both for Planet Stories. Some of the later books are selling fine, but we printed a lot less in order to be conservative. So that is why there aren't many left.

-Lisa

If they're selling that well, doesn't that fact make them worth reprinting?

You might think, but the answer is no. Sales of RPG products are funny, with the majority of the sales coming in the first couple of months and then it slows way down to a steady trickle. If you reprint, you never get the big first couple of months, all you have is trickle. And you can't keep cash in the bank doing that. That is why you do your best to estimate the sales. A thousand or two more would probably make some of those products available for a year or so more, but it is very financially difficult to print 1000 or 2000 copies. The costs to print go through the roof.

-Lisa

The only one on this list that concerns me is Seeker of Secrets, since it is a Core Assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized play. As new players join, this is a "must need" book for them. Are you trying to tell me that PFS has hit a saturation point were no more players will join and play? I know of at least three GMs locally who are in need of this book... and have no recourse but to buy it from Paizo now (after seeing this), since most of the distributors are out. And now it looks like they will not be reprinted either. If so, I feel this is a bad decision; a lot of FLGS carry Paizo product with the expectation that they can always get more if need be when they run out of stock. Not reprinting hurts them more than Paizo.

Seekers of Secrets is indeed still in print and we are selling it to distribution. I am just giving everyone a heads up that it is sinking down to the zero level. I think it could take six months to a year to go all the way out of print, so people have plenty of time to buy it if they want it. Think of this blog as the 2-minute warning for these products.

-Lisa

I've got to admit that as a new player, just coming into the game, this is a bit of a pain. PDFs are an alternative for books, but with so many flip-mats, map packs and so on going out of print, those of us who weren't customers during the initial printing (and who can't afford a $200 cart now to catch up) are going to be out of luck on having access to any of these products, even if we play for years to come.

The guy who starts playing a year from now and wants some mats and tiles for his games will be pretty much out of luck, as half of the choices look like they will be gone for good.

Yeah, it kind of sucks. I remember when I got into D&D back in 1981, there was already early books out of print and I had to go trolling through used book stores looking for them. Some I didn't get until eBay came around.

If you think about it from a company's point of view, it is pretty much impossible to keep everything in print forever. Think about how much warehouse space we would need! My goal is to keep a book in print for 3 to 5 years. That gives people a nice long time to buy what they need.

In the history of Paizo, I think that we have had eight products or so go out of print permanently. In that time, we have published well over 200 products. So there is still quite a bit that is in print that came out over five years ago.

The purpose for these warnings is so you can buy the stuff you absolutely want to have before it goes away. It is a slow process. Things in the under 1000 part could take six months to a year. The others, a bit less, depending on what it is. We have had less than 100 copies of our second ever book, The Dragon Compendium, for around three years now.

You shouldn't need a $250 cart to get all these books. Parcel them out over time and you should be fine.

Btw, you can go back and look at my previous store blogs like this to gauge how fast things sell and which columns they have fallen into.

-Lisa

Oh, I understand the business end of things. I've spent enough time in that world that I don't actually blame Paizo for not shelling out money when they know it won't turn a reliable profit.

Although I will say that I think that some things that are of core value to players should stay in print (say, flip-mats of basic terrain types, like desert, woods, swamps, snow, maybe a set of cards of buildings) in order to support customers who want to use them in conjunction with fresh products. Sort of a 'basic supplies' line that, while they may not be hugely profitable in and of themselves, will enhance the value of the rest of the line.

At some point, I'd also love to see a compilation of some of the earlier, unobtainable adventure paths. A Rise of the Runelords set in a single binding, for instance (or as a 'campaign in a box'.) Even at $120 it would be a value. Burnt Offerings alone is currently going for $170 on Amazon!

The guy who starts playing a year from now and wants some mats and tiles for his games will be pretty much out of luck, as half of the choices look like they will be gone for good.

As a collector, I feel your pain: I barely got the now out of stock flip-mats and map packs.

As a player, you shouldn't worry much. When a flip-mat or a map pack gets out of stock, Paizo usually releases a new version that is basically another take on the same setting (woodlands -> forest, tavern -> country inn, wizard's tower -> magic academy, dungeon chambers -> dungeon sites, etc.)

Although I will say that I think that some things that are of core value to players should stay in print (say, flip-mats of basic terrain types, like desert, woods, swamps, snow, maybe a set of cards of buildings) in order to support customers who want to use them in conjunction with fresh products. Sort of a 'basic supplies' line that, while they may not be hugely profitable in and of themselves, will enhance the value of the rest of the line.

What Fayries said. We knew we were in trouble when Flip-Mat: Tavern sold out pretty much right away. So we greenlit Flip-Mat: Waterfront Tavern as soon as we could. Now that that is nearing the end of its run, we're about to release Flip-Mat: Country Inn.

The original Flip-Mat: Dungeon was one of the first Paizo products to sell out. So we replaced it with a new Flip-Mat: Dungeon (that also tied into our first PFRPG adventure, Crypt of the Everflame). Before we did that, we also put out a couple Dungeon-related Map Packs. Now that Flip-Mat: Dungeon is nearing a sellout, we're going to put out a new one in the form of Flip-Mat: Haunted Dungeon.

The tavern and dungeon Flip-Mats tend to sell faster than the others, so it's likely we'll be increasing our print run on these types of products in the future.

We do 6 Flip-Mats a year, so even if a few of them sell out we still have tons of backstock of dozens of other Flip-Mats, all of which are strong sellers. And there are more coming every other month, sometimes reprising popular locations.

As for the "race" books, I wish we had printed more of them, but to be totally honest when we first published Elves of Golarion way back before the PFRPG even launched, we considered the Companion line a bit of a gamble. It's obviously paid off huge, but not huge enough that we can reprint the elf book profitably at this time. I strongly suspect that the best game material in that book will re-appear somehow down the road, but probably not in the form of a straight reprint.

Seekers of Secrets is a slightly different issue. Despite the fact that we are running a bit short in the warehouse, there are still PLENTY of copies of that book in game and book stores, and at distributors. I suspect it will be more than a year before that product dries out, and much of the "at the table" stuff useful to PFS players (and a lot more of it) will appear in the forthcoming Pathfinder Society Field Guide, which I think will be a much more useful resource for PFS players, with a lot more game-usable content (and perhaps less history and background information). I don't want to speak for our PFS team, but I strongly suspect that the Field Guide will be added to the core assumption for the PFS campaign. I'm not sure what the status of Seekers will be at this time, but I know it's something Mark and Hyrum are working on.

...I remember when I got into D&D back in 1981...

-Lisa

Lisa Stevens wrote:

...I remember when I got into D&D back in 1981...

-Lisa

** spoiler omitted **

Now I feel old...

Really? I feel about 11, tops. :3

Speaking of things going out of print, I remember in or around 1981 really really wanting to buy Judge's Guild's City State of the Invincible Overlord and not having enough money in my allowance for it. I never did have a chance to buy that baby. And even the 3rd edition update by Necromancer Games is oop.

Err... and sorry for the thread jack, Lisa. :D

Speaking of things going out of print, I remember in or around 1981 really really wanting to buy Judge's Guild's City State of the Invincible Overlord and not having enough money in my allowance for it. I never did have a chance to buy that baby. And even the 3rd edition update by Necromancer Games is oop.

Err... and sorry for the thread jack, Lisa. :D

No worries. Btw, I got my copy of CSofIO at a used bookstore for $5. Not too shabby and a really fun campaign.

-Lisa

Believe you me, the last thing I want to do is blame Paizo for the realities of game publishing.

Thankfully (and I thank Paizo for it,) the fact that all of their game books now come in PDFs does a lot to aleviate my dread of entropy.

I would like to suggest that Paizo render up PDF versions of their Planet Stories line. I don't know if there are any copyright logistics of the matter that would interfere at all, but considering Planet Stories is supposed to be all about keeping the old forgotten works of classic pulp authors in print, thinking of them becoming gone for good again is a little depressing.

I would like to suggest that Paizo render up PDF versions of their Planet Stories line. I don't know if there are any copyright logistics of the matter that would interfere at all, but considering Planet Stories is supposed to be all about keeping the old forgotten works of classic pulp authors in print, thinking of them becoming gone for good again is a little depressing.

In order to keep the cost of Planet Stories down (this is one of their lowest selling lines) Paizo only purchases print rights, they do not own the digital distribution rights for those books. For all I know they may only have the rights for a single print run.

So subscribe to Planet Stories!

So subscribe to Planet Stories!

YES!

Lisa Stevens wrote:

...I remember when I got into D&D back in 1981...

-Lisa

** spoiler omitted **

Whippersnappers! Get off my lawn!

*shakes fist*

Whippersnappers! Get off my lawn!

*shakes fist*

Now, Treppa, I don't think you get to do that unless you accompany it with a year.

So subscribe to Planet Stories!

I'm subscribed to four different Paizo thingummies already! I love Paizo, but I've only got so much money and I'm a fan of other things too! ;.;

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Lisa Stevens wrote:

...I remember when I got into D&D back in 1981...

-Lisa

** spoiler omitted **

Now I feel old...

Now I feel young... :D

This blog makes me feel about the age that I am ;) But the title is taken from the very first single "I" bought for myself. Keep the Springsteen references coming, I say. They make me happy. :)

I'm 34 (almost 35) but don't feel any older than 18.

If there's ever a Compendium for the races, I intend swipe that up. Especially if it's beautiful, make-my-geek-happy hardcover.

Thanks for publishing this list, Paizo. There are some good items on here.

Is there an update to this list on the way, or is it a little too soon?

I'm 34 (almost 35) but don't feel any older than 18.

You are only as old as the person you feel.

So twin, you'd better start checking ID.!

One of my big beefs with the whole 'not reprinting' thing is that when playing PFS, many of the mods call for various flip maps or map packs htat are out of print. so we GMs that were not buying originally cannot buy them now. YET PIAZO KEEPS PUTTING OUT PFS SENARIOS CALLING FOR OUT OF PRINT PRODUCTS>

Is there an update to this list on the way, or is it a little too soon?

I was just thinking that it might be time to update this in a store blog. I'll at least get the idea into Jeff Alvarez's head so it shows up sometime in the next month or so.

-Lisa

Dark Sasha wrote:

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Lisa Stevens wrote:

...I remember when I got into D&D back in 1981...

-Lisa

** spoiler omitted **

Now I feel old...

Now I feel young... :D

** spoiler omitted **

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

g#+~~*n whippersnappers

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

I can't believe that black dragon is still left. It's a quality miniature and a steal! I guess it's because people don't want a rider, but at that price, who cares? Make him a special villain who barely escapes several times.

I already have one. I'm tempted to buy a second and remove the rider...

If you didn't it's too late now. :)

One of my big beefs with the whole 'not reprinting' thing is that when playing PFS, many of the mods call for various flip maps or map packs htat are out of print. so we GMs that were not buying originally cannot buy them now. YET PIAZO KEEPS PUTTING OUT PFS SENARIOS CALLING FOR OUT OF PRINT PRODUCTS>

All of our out-of-print Flip-Mats and Map Packs are now available as PDFs, with the exception of the first three Flip-Mats, which were produced by Steel Sqwire. (We hope to bring those out in PDF form soon, but I'll also note that we don't reference them in PFS scenarios.)

I'm 34 (almost 35) but don't feel any older than 18.

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels." - Groucho Marx.

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:

I'm 34 (almost 35) but don't feel any older than 18.

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels." - Groucho Marx.

Then how old do women feel? :)

Matthew Morris wrote:

Twin Agate Dragons wrote:

I'm 34 (almost 35) but don't feel any older than 18.

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels." - Groucho Marx.

Then how old do women feel? :)

For Twin Agate Dragons, apparently "no older than 18."