That is sad, there is a ton of good stuff coming out now. I can hardly keep up.
Speaking of good stuff, any chance of a print compilation of the Advanced Feats material when all the classes are done? Because I would buy that.
Why would you want to shake a stick at Pathfinder-compatible products, anyway?
-The Gneech ("Not my idea of a big evening, I gotta say.")
I gotta tell ya, the Paizo folk are really top notch with the love for us 3pp. Other companies treat their 3pp as either a) lucky to be on their license or b) "what 3pp?"
Paizo, we really do feel the love from you guys. Thank you.
Chief Technical Officer
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I just added one more new December product to the blog: Learning Curve: Apprentice-Level Characters from Tricky Owlbear Publishing.
Kobold Press
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Speaking of good stuff, any chance of a print compilation of the Advanced Feats material when all the classes are done? Because I would buy that.
I will duck the question slightly, because we're still figuring out whether it's better to just keep PDFs as PDFs. Honestly, I think the Advanced Feats series is a good candidate for a compilation like this, but it would require some tweaks to the layout of the first two installments to bring them up to the later ones. Right now we're pretty focussed on the Oracle and Inquisitor, so ... No promises yet.
And Vic, thanks for highlighting all these!
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I just added one more new December product to the blog: Learning Curve: Apprentice-Level Characters from Tricky Owlbear Publishing.
Cool! Thanks Vic!!!
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I gotta tell ya, the Paizo folk are really top notch with the love for us 3pp. Other companies treat their 3pp as either a) lucky to be on their license or b) "what 3pp?"
Paizo, we really do feel the love from you guys. Thank you.
285.667% ditto. So awesome to get a shout by this company - I know the Krewe will agree when they see the news on my facebook page. :P XD
I am not going to lie when I say that I am incredibly impressed by the integrity, humanity, and humility I see within this organization, and I never would have signed up for PF compatibility if I did not believe Paizo to be a decent business. These guys rock the house, thirty-fold, and I am so happy to be on board! ;)
I personally feel incredibly honored by this inclusion of our work... especially given certain, eh... follysome circumstances on my part. I think I am just lucky I didn't get struck by smiting lightning in the process.
But yeah, wow - I am shocked, awed, and enamored by the holiday blessings. :D Best wishes, all! (And a wonderful, huge CONGRATS to Paizo and PF for having such a blessed year!)
-will
1. I agree with the third party love, Paizo treats their 3pp like actual partners.
2. @Dragonmoon;I don't get the hate against price at all, as some of those are cheaper per page than paizo. I do understand if some folks don't have an ipad yet or tablet and can't take the book to the table; I don't get the quality issue since heck Oone games is pretty much Tim Hitchcock telling the werecabbages (the paizo freelancers) what to write, heck Oone games was the only company to take the gold from paizo at the ENnies (even I lost to them). "Officialness" that I get. Which is why i am with Owen K. C. Stephens we need Paizo to do a "The Year's Best Pathfinder Compatible"
3. Some d20 was bad some d20 was the Tome of Horrors, the Advanced Bestiary, and Book of Fiends (by Eric Mona!)
4. @Baur your a wolf not a duck!
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2. @Dragonmoon;I don't get the hate against price at all, as some of those are cheaper per page than paizo. I do understand if some folks don't have an ipad yet or tablet and can't take the book to the table; I don't get the quality issue since heck Oone games is pretty much Tim Hitchcock telling the werecabbages (the paizo freelancers) what to write, heck Oone games was the only company to take the gold from paizo at the ENnies (even I lost to them). "Officialness" that I get. Which is why i am with Owen K. C. Stephens we need Paizo to do a "The Year's Best Pathfinder Compatible"
Here is what it comes down to me for 3pp
Price - for me that is really not a big deal most of the time, unless I think the product is not worth the price, Most of the time I have the money to spend.
Quality - Some is bad, some is good but it really does not matter, I hate rule glut, if it is a book that adds Feats, Classes, spells or anything like that it is useless to me, I am not a fan of them and will not touch them. now Adventures if I like them those I can use, and I have bought them before, mostly from Open Design, there is nothing I have seen yet from other publishers that I am interested in. Monsters, especially Templates I can add onto monsters I love and will buy if it looks good.
Officialness - That goes back to rule glut really, I have enough to deal with with just Paizo stuff I don't want to add more to my games.
So its Rule Glut.
I got that, you sound though like you don't mind monster glut?
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So ... Pathfinder is the new 3.5e, as far as 3PP are concerned ? Woot.
Not for me (and therefore to a certain extent, not for Super Genius Games). Paizo has carefully taken a very different view of rules expansions vs adventures than WotC ever did.
Look at what we have in the way of new official Pathfinder rules since the release of the core rulebook. And look at what official adventures are available to play.
Now look at the same time period from 3.5, and official game rules vs adventures that came from WotC during those months.
Paizo is building a huge play network by constantly creating lots and lots of awesome adventures (in three categories: OP, AP, and stand-alone). At the same time, they do very little (relatively speaking) to expand the hard game rules. That creates stability, and leaves GMs neither having to spend a lot of time writing adventures nor constantly vetting new official game rules.
With more free time, and more play options, I have found a lot of GMs and groups who neither wanted nor needed 3pp material for 3.5 are slowly turning to it for Pathfinder. And in many cases they want material they fell Paizo would put out, if it had time. In 3.5, a lot of people looked to 3pp for way-out-there materials they didn't feel WotC would ever do. And most Pathfinder fans don't seem to be looking for whole new games of similar-but-tweaked rules for licenses or different styles of play.
When I worked on 3pp projects back in 3.5 days, the vast majority were either licensed RPGs still jumping on the d20 bandwagon, or stand-alone expansions the designers had no expectation of fitting in with even just the same company's 3pp offerings. Since we started releasing PDfs a bit over a year ago, the comments SGG gets most often are "How does this fit in with everything else you've released" and "Thanks for supporting the new official material with your products." (Or "Why didn't you support it" when we screw up and, for example, don't list what new spells are appropriate for the inquisitor, summoner, and witch.)
That's a very different market attitude. Coupled with Paizo acting like actual custodians of a resource and shepherding 3pp to do the best we can, and the 3pp themselves doing a better job of getting along (I've had a *lot* of conversations with other publishers that boiled down to
"That's neat! do you mind if we build off it?"), it creates a friendly, and I think higher quality, overall 3pp market than I ever would have hoped for in 3.5.
I think one big sign of that is that every major Pathfinder 3pp is active on these forums. If you want to ask Wolf, or me, or Steve, or Jeremy, or Bret, or any one of a dozen other publishers or freelancers a question about their Pathfinder-compatible product, you can do it here. This is the Pathfinder community, even for the 3pp.
So for me this isn't 3.5 all over again. It's much better.
@ Dragonmoon them 3PP are still good for you.
the Tsar series of adventures by Frog God
Monster Chronicles by Open Design (not to mention the Patronage projects)
Mythic Menagerie by SGG (I recommend goblinoids)
Book of Beasts: Monsters of the River Nations by JBE
Fearsome Foes by Tricky Owlbear Publishing
Book of Monster Templates by Rite Publishing
Coliseum Morpheuon 16-20th you don't have to stop at 15th level
Just to name a few.
Well being one of the only publishers who has been here since 2000, gone thru the 3.0 & 3.5 glut, survived it and is still going strong, I can tell you Paizo has done everything I wished WOTC did. When Paizo supports the 3PP they are just supporting themselves in the long run. They know their fan base wants new products and that 3PP help keep the game line alive. Best of all, there are something that 3PP do that Paizo may NEVER do or may not be profitable for them, for example Dreamscarred Press and their Psionics ruleset. Personally I think Paizo and many of the 3PP actually like each other so that is why you will see more expansion and crossover products between 3PP and even with Paizo. I think the next step to help expand and increase acceptance of 3PP is more printed material in retail stores and improving the quality of the products we all are putting out. As long as we keep doing that, the fan base for Paizo will keep expanding.
I just added one more new December product to the blog: Learning Curve: Apprentice-Level Characters from Tricky Owlbear Publishing.
Thanks, Vic!
And thanks to everyone at Paizo for the 3PP love!
@ Dragonmoon them 3PP are still good for you.
the Tsar series of adventures by Frog God
Monster Chronicles by Open Design (not to mention the Patronage projects)
Mythic Menagerie by SGG (I recommend goblinoids)
Book of Beasts: Monsters of the River Nations by JBE
Forgotten Foes by Tricky Owlbear Publishing
Book of Monster Templates by Rite Publishing
Coliseum Morpheuon 16-20th you don't have to stop at 15th levelJust to name a few.
Seconded. I don't think I've heard anything bad about any of these books.
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@ Dragonmoon them 3PP are still good for you.
the Tsar series of adventures by Frog God
Monster Chronicles by Open Design (not to mention the Patronage projects)
Mythic Menagerie by SGG (I recommend goblinoids)
Book of Beasts: Monsters of the River Nations by JBE
Fearsome Foes by Tricky Owlbear Publishing
Book of Monster Templates by Rite Publishing
Coliseum Morpheuon 16-20th you don't have to stop at 15th levelJust to name a few.
Most of those I have no interest in, after looking at them, except for Monster Chronicles and Tsar series which I am a subscriber to.
Also one other thing I did not mention I do not like buying thick PDF only books, though most what you mention above are not. Anything tat is 60+ pages I will only get if there is an option to get in Book form to.
Edit: Another thing to take into account, D&D is actually not my Favorite RPG, Closer to my least favorite then Favorite, and for me to spend money on your products you really need to have a special place in my heart, so targeting me is mostly useless ;).
What a great conversation. Thanks, Vic, for the blog post that started it!
I'll just add that there's a wonderful variety of 3PP material available right now, and it looks like there's only more great stuff coming. As a fan, I can't wait for each company's newest release. As a professional (with Zombie Sky Press and Open Design), I love being able to interact immediately with fans.
Perhaps unique in the industry, Paizo has given us this friendly port in which to play with their game system. They actively support the health of 3PPs and respond to the fans. What a great place to be!
We 3PP as a whole have come a long way, and I hope that any fans that have been hesitant toward trying 3PP products reconsider. I think you'll find something you like.
Viva la 3PP! :)
How about the fact that Paizo had 3PP in their booth at GenCon!
That was amazing.
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and the 3pp themselves doing a better job of getting along (I've had a *lot* of conversations with other publishers that boiled down to "That's neat! do you mind if we build off it?"), it creates a friendly, and I think higher quality, overall 3pp market than I ever would have hoped for in 3.5.
Can you point to such a third-party product that builds off another 3PP ruleset?
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Can you point to such a third-party product that builds off another 3PP ruleset?
It would be neat to see a third-party adventure where the sample characters in the back included a Frost Bloodline Sorcerer (from SGG's Ice Magic) to represent an Irriseni sorceress or an encounter near a seaside community involved Wharflings, Goblin Sharks or a Coral Drake, (from Kobold Quarterly's Sunken Empires). Perhaps limiting such crossovers to stuff that's available on websites, such as Kobold Quarterly's Spell-less Ranger variant, would be best, though...
The only specific example I can think of is that Kobold Quarterly (a third-party publisher) is using rules material from the Freeport Companion (from another third party publisher, Green Ronin), to make a Pathfinder rules adventure set in Freeport.
Paizo itself, in the days when *it* was a third-party publisher of adventures, used the Tome of Horrors material, from Necromancer Games, fairly often, as well.
From a personal standpoint, I find that most of the 3pp stuff is of good quality. Instead of picking through a bunch of 3.5e stuff that had crap in even the good products, I actually look for something I think will fill a niche in my campaign design. I used to get PDFs to take a snippet here & there. Sadly, most of this wasn't even a whole class. With most Pathfinder 3pp stuff I use whole sections of material, if not the whole of the product.
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From a personal standpoint, I find that most of the 3pp stuff is of good quality.
For the most part (warning, generalizing!), it seems that the 3PP publishers are mostly producing stuff that they want to write / design / create, and not following some sort of checklist.
The worst 3PP products, IMO, came from publishers who pumped out splatbooks like they were ticking chores off of an itemized list, making a supplement for Clerics, and then one for Druids, and then one for Sorcerers, etc., and often hired writers who weren't abso-freaking-lutely in love with the subject material. This tends to reflect in the quality of the work, if the author is writing 'Evocation; A Young Lady's Primer to Melting Faces Off' because it was an assignment, and may never have actually played an Evoker, and not because he loves, loves, loves the subject matter.
There are always going to be risks of that sort of 'checklist design' creeping up again, 'though. Ice Magic (SGG) was inspired ('cool,' even). Water Magic, Fire Magic, etc. are going to appear derivative and workmanlike, in the same manner as Quintessential Pig-Farmer did, and hopefully won't fall into the trap of being printed just because they 'complete the set,' but because the author pitching them was a huge fan of spells and effects pertaining to that element and was brimming with fun ideas.
Of course, Open Design/Kobold Quarterly is going through a series of Feat books for each of the APG classes, and, from the reviews, appears to be defying any doubts I would have, as they appear to be well-received. I know that if *I* were tapped to write a product on Alchemists, Summoners or Witches, I'd be full of ideas, but if they succeeded and I was then tapped to write a book with similar ideas about Cavaliers or Inquisitors I'd choke, since those classes have zero appeal to me. Sigfried clearly has a wider range of interests than I do. :)
Then again, 2nd editions Complete Elves Handbook might serve as proof that having someone who loves the subject matter *too much* can be worse than a lackluster product...
and the 3pp themselves doing a better job of getting along (I've had a *lot* of conversations with other publishers that boiled down to "That's neat! do you mind if we build off it?"), it creates a friendly, and I think higher quality, overall 3pp market than I ever would have hoped for in 3.5.Can you point to such a third-party product that builds off another 3PP ruleset?
Nothing that is out "right now" - but we have three publishers (so far) working with us for their material to build off Psionics Unleashed. Only one of them has gone "public" with it, so we're happy to say we're working together with Louis Porter Jr to create compatible rules for his Section Omega to use the Core Psionics rules from Psionics Unleashed.
We're also working on an official "compatibility license" that other companies can use to indicate compatibility with our stuff.
Now, I want to add to the chorus of people cheering on Paizo. We've received only positive and helpful contact with all of them, from rules ideas and input on our material, to help with setting up sales for our books and everything inbetween.
That they take time to highlight us at their store blog is just one of many ways that they help the third party publishers thrive and grow. I can only chime in with Owen's words - this is an entirely new way of doing this - never before has the support from the "mother company" been as strong as this. Never before have we been as elevated as this.
Anyway, just wanted to throw my words into the discussion on this.
Regards
- Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press
Owen K. C. Stephens is writing part our class section for Questhaven Campaign setting on the roles of the SGG classes within the setting.
Really the only thing that keeps me from working with more publishers is that I don't get alot of time to read their stuff because I am busy writing our own :)
Only one of them has gone "public" with it, so we're happy to say we're working together with Louis Porter Jr to create compatible rules for his Section Omega to use the Core Psionics rules from Psionics Unleashed.
And I am sure we are going to talking to you again when we do a psionic add-on supplement for Obsidian Twilight for Halloween 2011. Working with Dreamscarred has been a easy process and I am glad they had time to help us on this project. Time is the real issue to creating crossover between companies. "Do we have the time to do it?" is always the first question.
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and the 3pp themselves doing a better job of getting along (I've had a *lot* of conversations with other publishers that boiled down to "That's neat! do you mind if we build off it?"), it creates a friendly, and I think higher quality, overall 3pp market than I ever would have hoped for in 3.5.Can you point to such a third-party product that builds off another 3PP ruleset?
Steve's The Wyrd of Questhaven book is also built off a 3pp idea, I believe.
Personally, I regularly use creatures from outside the Bestiary. For Coliseum Morpheuon, I pulled a couple of monsters from the Pathfinder APs for use. For the Ruined Guardhouse and the Book of Monster Templates I went to a 3pp 3e monster book and I frequently use things from Tome of Horrors and the Advanced Bestiary.
Non-monster wise, in #30 Unique Magical Blades I pulled a weapon quality from Sunken Empires for use.
One limitation, like Steve said, is that as you are writing things, you don't have as much time for reading. But speaking personally, as an OGL freelancer I am quite open to mixing and matching from material I am familiar with (it just happens I spend most of my free 3pp reading time reading monster books).
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Sherwood is using a couple of builds from material written by SGG. It is also doing somethings a little different to reflect the historical nature of the setting.
We are also going to be releasing our Cinematic Adventures for Pathfinder here soon, and will encourage other publishers to build off of it as well.
Yes, thanks Vic, this is a great thread. I look forward to seeing what is new and exciting for Pathfinder.
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Sherwood is using a couple of builds from material written by SGG. It is also doing somethings a little different to reflect the historical nature of the setting.
We are also going to be releasing our Cinematic Adventures for Pathfinder here soon, and will encourage other publishers to build off of it as well.
Yes, thanks Vic, this is a great thread. I look forward to seeing what is new and exciting for Pathfinder.
Sherwood? Would you mind expanding on what this product is? It sounds interesting!
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Sherwood is using a couple of builds from material written by SGG. It is also doing somethings a little different to reflect the historical nature of the setting.
We are also going to be releasing our Cinematic Adventures for Pathfinder here soon, and will encourage other publishers to build off of it as well.
Wait. "Cinematic Adventures"? DETAILS.
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Most of those I have no interest in, after looking at them, except for Monster Chronicles and Tsar series which I am a subscriber to.@ Dragonmoon them 3PP are still good for you.
the Tsar series of adventures by Frog God
Monster Chronicles by Open Design (not to mention the Patronage projects)
Mythic Menagerie by SGG (I recommend goblinoids)
Book of Beasts: Monsters of the River Nations by JBE
Fearsome Foes by Tricky Owlbear Publishing
Book of Monster Templates by Rite Publishing
Coliseum Morpheuon 16-20th you don't have to stop at 15th levelJust to name a few.
Dragnmoon, how closely have you looked at Coliseum Morpheuon? In another thread you mentioned wanting full color, which it is. Its also available in book form with all sorts of additional supplements also being available to support it.
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Dragnmoon, how closely have you looked at Coliseum Morpheuon? In another thread you mentioned wanting full color, which it is. Its also available in book form with all sorts of additional supplements also being available to support it.
Looks interesting, but I don't have a need at this time for a 16-20 level Adventure. Nice to see Boomer get some work.