Thank you for this list! Hopefully the ones I'm after will still be there when I get my next paycheck ;)
So, will the PDF versions continue to be available after the print editions are gone?
So, will the PDF versions continue to be available after the print editions are gone?
They generally are still available after the print editions are all gone. Just take a look at the early Rise of the Runelords editions that are already sold out for examples.
The 3.5e edition of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting may be a special case once the PRPG edition (Pathfinder Campaign Setting World Guide: Inner Sea) comes out though. (The 3.5e version is already listed as unavailable in print, I just checked.) I don't remember if they announced how it would be handled once the new one is out, but I know they want to make it more difficult to buy by accident when you're after the new edition.
CEO
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Not to leap to conclusions, but there are a lot of recent products on the "under 1000" list, especially the two (3?) newest Planet Stories books. Is Paizo cutting the print run on these, or are they gaining popularity?
There can be a lot of reasons for something getting low in stock. Sometimes we underestimate the print runs and other times the product just sells a lot faster than we anticipated.
-Lisa
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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We don't plan to reprint any of the books listed in the blog post.
What makes me sad is seeing this applied to books like Cheliax: Empire of Devils and Elves of Golarion. Pathfinder players in home games and in Pathfinder Society games are constantly purchasing books like these to add depth to their characters. Often, they are brand new players coming into the game, and books like that are a godsend for people wanting to play in Golarion and find out more about what their character is like. Not having those books will be sad. Especially with PFS rules in place saying you can't have a specific trait, feat, or item unless you own the book it's from.
Along this same line, Classic Monsters Revisited, Classic Treasures Revisited, and the Guide to Korvosa are hugely popular with newer GMs. I can't tell you how many people come into the store looking for Classic Monsters Revisited on a regular basis. That book, more than almost any other to me, is what makes Golarion unique, and was a big influence on me in getting me to switch from 1st Edition D&D to Pathfinder.
Being able to buy the PDF isn't the same. Especially for stores like mine that are trying to build a playing base that comes to us for their information and ideas.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We understand. We don't really want to run out of stuff like Classic Monsters or Classic Treasures, either.
Planning print runs for this stuff is difficult. We're constantly examining the runs because we want a product to last about 3-5 years. Now that we have a few years of experience, it's easier to know which products are likely to have higher demand, and print accordingly.
That said, sometimes a product sells really fast, or retailers order an unexpectedly high number and surprise the hell out of us.
We're printing more across the board these days because the interest in all of our product lines has increased significantly since the launch of the Pathfinder RPG.
POD - it's the future. Lets the FLGS stock everything electronically and print their own copies.
"Elves of Golarion? Sure, why don't you go browse the minis and boardgames and it'll be ready in 20 minutes. Next time, phone or email your order ahead, and it'll be waiting for you. Here's a code so you can download the pdf from Paizo's website."
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POD - it's the future. Lets the FLGS stock everything electronically and print their own copies.
"Elves of Golarion? Sure, why don't you go browse the minis and boardgames and it'll be ready in 20 minutes. Next time, phone or email your order ahead, and it'll be waiting for you. Here's a code so you can download the pdf from Paizo's website."
I can't wait for the day that the POD machines become affordable.
Don't wait like I did. I just paid $68 for a print copy of "Burnt Offerings" and plan to hang on it.
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Chief Technical Officer
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So, will the PDF versions continue to be available after the print editions are gone?They generally are still available after the print editions are all gone. Just take a look at the early Rise of the Runelords editions that are already sold out for examples.
The 3.5e edition of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting may be a special case once the PRPG edition (Pathfinder Campaign Setting World Guide: Inner Sea) comes out though. (The 3.5e version is already listed as unavailable in print, I just checked.) I don't remember if they announced how it would be handled once the new one is out, but I know they want to make it more difficult to buy by accident when you're after the new edition.
You are correct—after the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: World Guide—The Inner Sea comes out for the Pathfinder RPG, you'll still be able to buy the 3.5 Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting PDF, but the product listing will include a note that explains that it has been superceded by a newer product, and during checkout, you'll see a special screen with a similar message that you'll have to acknowledge before you can proceed. (We already do something similar for the Pathfinder Society Scenario PDFs that have been retired.)
We don't plan to reprint any of the books listed in the blog post.I can't tell you how many people come into the store looking for Classic Monsters Revisited on a regular basis. That book, more than almost any other to me, is what makes Golarion unique, and was a big influence on me in getting me to switch from 1st Edition D&D to Pathfinder.
On the other hand, Classic Monsters Revisited has been on the "endangered list" for over a year now and still hasn't actually sold out. I don't know if the copies they do have are for Paizo online store only, or if they are still available through distribution channels. I do recommend it to anyone who doesn't have it yet. Sadly, the longer it takes to sell out the less likely it is to ever be reprinted. Since it has taken this long for the last of the copies to disappear, a reprint won't be cost effective.
Maybe in 5 years it'll be worth making a Monsters Revisited Compendium Hardback and they can update the classic monster entries to Pathfinder.
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CEO
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On the other hand, Classic Monsters Revisited has been on the "endangered list" for over a year now and still hasn't actually sold out. I don't know if the copies they do have are for Paizo online store only, or if they are still available through distribution channels. I do recommend it to anyone who doesn't have it yet. Sadly, the longer it takes to sell out the less likely it is to ever be reprinted. Since it has taken this long for the last of the copies to disappear, a reprint won't be cost effective.
Maybe in 5 years it'll be worth making a Monsters Revisited Compendium Hardback and they can update the classic monster entries to Pathfinder.
We did get a couple hundred more copies of this book from our book distributor who in turn got them back from book stores. We only accept whole copy returns, so this means that we have been able to get some "restocks" from the book trade that we have been able to offer through the website, though not enough to bring back into the distribution system.
-Lisa
I guess I just don't understand why you can only do one print run for most products.
I can see you not going with another printing if the product just did not sell well, but if it does sell out within a year or so, why can't you just do another print run? Is it really that expensive and you would lose that much money if you did so?
If the print run lasts 5+ years, it's one thing. But I would consider running out in a year or two pretty fast as I am assuming the overall RPG is going to last for quite a few years past 2 years. And as somebody said earlier in the thread, those new people joining in later on will lose out on a lot of great books.
Then you run into issues of trying to find a book on Amazon or Ebay and paying $40 (or more) for a $20 MSRP book.
And I know the PDF's will be available for a long time, but I know there are a lot like me who will always prefer the hard copy version.
This is why reprints suck. These numbers are made up, but close enough. Say the first printing of a book costs $3 per book at 10k books. Pretend the publisher makes $6 per book and it retails at $12. Sales drop off after the initial release for most supplements.
5,000 first month
2,000 second month - Paid for first printing, now making profit.
1,000 third month
500 fourth month
200 per month* after that.
*Things probably get worse after that, but this is good enough for an example. Sells out after 1 year. So you spend another $30k to do a reprint. Sales don't actually go back up, so you are still selling 200 per month. This time it takes you 25 months to break even on the print job, meaning you basically shouldn't have done it.
In order for a reprint to make sense you have to expect to have really good sustained sales. If you calculated it right on the first printing, you can have enough to last you about 2 years and still make a good profit in the first few months. If you calculate low you may need to do a reprint because the print run was way below demand. If you calculate too high, you don't sell enough and make zero or less profit.
EDIT PS: Paizo also has a lot of good numbers for each line by now, so they have a good idea of what to expect when they print an AP, Module, etc. Each of the lines has a bit of a learning curve, as the first few are gambles. The most noticeable was of course the core line, where a hardcover print run is very risky but they managed to sell out very quickly. I assume by now the APG sales give them a good idea what to expect for future core releases.
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Chief Technical Officer
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This is why reprints suck. These numbers are made up, but close enough.
Pretty much on the nose there. Here is a thread with some more details and further discussion.
Also, I'd like to point out that we also had a couple of different edition-related strategies for setting print runs over the years.
When we first started doing our own Pathfinder products, they were designed for 3.5; 4th Edition was just the barest of rumors, and nobody here had any reason to even *conceive* of the Pathfinder RPG. As Erik mentioned, we try to shoot for 3-to-5 year inventory for most things, and since there really was no reason to do otherwise, we were generally shooting for the high side in those days.
Then, 4E was announced, and there was a period where we didn't know whether folks would be playing 3.5, 4E, or something else in two years, so we started shooting for the lower side as far as inventory goes. (We also started minimizing the amount of mechanical text in some of products, where appropriate, so our books might still have value beyond their edition.)
Soon enough, we figured out that our future would be a backwards-compatible Pathfinder RPG, but until we had a finished rules set, we were still pretty much in the same boat as before—shooting low, and minimizing mechanics.
Only with the success of the Pathfinder RPG have we really been able to go back to 5-year inventory targets—but then, the Pathfinder RPG has been doing great, so sometimes what we *thought* would last five years might not. (A really good example of that is the Pathfidner Companion: Adventurer's Armory, which sold out immediately; we knew there was still plenty of demand, so we did actually reprint that one.)
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Don't wait like I did. I just paid $68 for a print copy of "Burnt Offerings" and plan to hang on it.
Ouch!
I just checked Amazon and the cheapest used copy is $48 and the seller looks a little questionable. I bought mine last May used for under 20. Book 6 just came today from Paizo. Now I have all 6. Thank goodness I ordered it a few days before this blog post came out.
I did see a few new copies of 2,4 and 6 at my FLGS recently.
Also - I really appreciate these going ... going ... posts. After a late start, I'm trying to complete my collection and it helps prioritize my purchases,
Ok, thanks for the posts, very helpful and informative, especially the post Vic linked to.
Don't wait like I did. I just paid $68 for a print copy of "Burnt Offerings" and plan to hang on it.Ouch!
I just checked Amazon and the cheapest used copy is $48 and the seller looks a little questionable. I bought mine last May used for under 20. Book 6 just came today from Paizo. Now I have all 6. Thank goodness I ordered it a few days before this blog post came out.
I did see a few new copies of 2,4 and 6 at my FLGS recently.
Also - I really appreciate these going ... going ... posts. After a late start, I'm trying to complete my collection and it helps prioritize my purchases,
The cheapest the one I see is for $49.99 on Amazon. But the seller has high marks.
I will admit, I usually do not like to buy used online. Because even if I get a description of "minor shelf wear" it ends up being lot more than I like. I'm very picky about the condition of my books. Which is why I like to buy new. However, with this AP, the lowest (and only) new copy is $145!
We lucked out and got our copy of Burnt Offerings a while back on half.com just before everyone figured out that it was out of print. We paid just under list price; I think the next lowest price was in the $40 range.
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I will admit, I usually do not like to buy used online. Because even if I get a description of "minor shelf wear" it's a lot more than I like. But with this AP, the lowest (and only) new copy is $145!
I had very good luck getting book #1 used from HPB - Seattle through Amazon. I double checked my order and I actually ordered it April 10, 2010. I got books 2 and 5 new through Amazon.com since they were sold out here IIRC.
I just checked Amazon and the cheapest used copy is $48 and the seller looks a little questionable.
Yeah, I've been burned by that JBulmahn1337 seller before...
Yeah, I've been burned by that JBulmahn1337 seller before...I just checked Amazon and the cheapest used copy is $48 and the seller looks a little questionable.
Hey, look again, James. Wasn't me that said that.
Trying to get me in trouble. *grumble*
Picked up several items. Thanks for the heads-up. :D
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Just completed my collection of AP's. I was lucky to get Hook Mountain Massacre for £20 ($30) off Ebay.
On the other hand, Burnt Offerings set me back £59.61 ($91) second hand from Amazon. Having said that I'm happy to pay that as a one off for the sake of completion...
Now all I need is Savage Tide and Age of Worms and I'm all set.
Wow, Classic Treasures made it to the endangered list fast.
I may have to grab a copy of Dungeon Chambers, map junkie that I am.
Also, that Dragon: Monster Ecologies is a solid resource and Paizo has it reduced to $10.