No, Wizards don't get everything @ half price.
Now, if they choose to take an arcane bond with an item, it doesn't not count against their starting wealth (essentially getting it for free.)
If they choose to bond with some kind of weapon, then it is of masterwork quality, but not made of any special material.
Assuming you're generating a character above first level.
"Table 12–4 [the character wealth by level chart] can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items. (Pathfinder Core Rulebook, p. 400) "
Don't see anything there about discounts if you could make an item yourself. That's not to say I haven't heard of it as a house rule, but that makes characters with item creation feats have an advantage over those that don't, so I wouldn't allow it.
Yeah, your wizard friend is WAY off. Wizards do not get gear at half price.
As has been pointed out, they get a bonded item for free, and it is of masterwork quality if applicable.
If they take any item creation feats, then they MAYBE get to buy any item they could make themselves at half cost (although there is always debate over whether or not this is kosher). Also, if their bonded item can be enchanted, they can do that at half cost, regardless of whether or not they have the feat, since that is one of the things bonded items let them do.
Beyond that, they are paying full price.
If he had Craft Wondrous Items, he could make most of his gear for half off.
If he had Craft Wondrous Items, he could make most of his gear for half off.
See Tim and my posts above. There is much contention on this point, and it is not by any means clear that item-creation characters can assume that any gear they have that they could have made they did make.
No, there is no rule for wizards getting everything half off.
It seems to be Standard practice (not a rule) to let people get things they can make themselves at half off for magic items ( scrolls in the case of the wizard) or 2/3 off for crafted materials.
If he had Craft Wondrous Items, he could make most of his gear for half off.
So, you're gonna to allow benefits to be acquired before the start of the campaign for feats you have.
Then you will let my fighter with a ranks in craft to make his own armor at a discount, right. That's not unreasonable is it?
My new high-level elf bard wants all the money he would have made in his lifetime credited to his account. Let's see he can take 10 and get a DC 30 Perform check so 3d6 gp / day times 365 days / year times 6d6 years is, what, some 80,000gp.
Unless you're willing to give every other character similar benefits from using skills and feats before adventuring you shouldn't be allowing a wizard to benefit from his.
At higher levels more and more of a character's power comes from magic items. Allow one character to have twice as many from a single feat (that they continue to benefit from) seems a tad overpowered.
If he had Craft Wondrous Items, he could make most of his gear for half off.So, you're gonna to allow benefits to be acquired before the start of the campaign for feats you have.
Then you will let my fighter with a ranks in craft to make his own armor at a discount, right. That's not unreasonable is it?
My new high-level elf bard wants all the money he would have made in his lifetime credited to his account. Let's see he can take 10 and get a DC 30 Perform check so 3d6 gp / day times 365 days / year times 6d6 years is, what, some 80,000gp.
Unless you're willing to give every other character similar benefits from using skills and feats before adventuring you shouldn't be allowing a wizard to benefit from his.
At higher levels more and more of a character's power comes from magic items. Allow one character to have twice as many from a single feat (that they continue to benefit from) seems a tad overpowered.
If a fighter has ranks in Craft(Armor), I would find it insanely silly if he didn't start out with armor he made.
Perform / Profession checks are neatly dealt with by Wealth by Level. :)
In fact, anyone, even the fighter with Master Craftsman and making his own weapons, can use those skills to get cheaper items. He invested in them, it's insanely silly to say he can't benefit from them. In that case, the character is going to save up all his money, introduce himself to the party, then go off for a few months to make all his items.
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WBL represents the resources the wizard (or any other character) had prior to start of game. Item creation feats do not, and should not, affect the price of starting equipment.
Here's why :
If you follow strict WBL as you level up normally, then let's say that at a given point your character should have 10,000gp (random number chosen for clarity). That would have represented a mixture of gold and items, likely more wealth in items than anything else. These items are then sold for 50% of value base. That money can then be put toward creating custom items. If you are making a character with 10,000gp base, then over his career he had enough resources to get 10,000gp of equipment, however he managed it. It could be some crafting, some lucky finds, some outright purchases.
Item creation feats should never be a wealth multiplier per level, they are intended to be a customization tool. They allow the group to have exactly what they want.
The argument is pretty simple. If you have 1000 bucks and you are buying a dining room set that retails for 1000 dollars, you spend it all.
However, if you can make that dining room set yourself for 500 bucks, then you should have 500 bucks left over.
That's the logic of it from an out-of-game perspective.
From an in-game perspective the argument is that if you were to play a character from level 1 with crafting feats, that character would be able to use his share of the party funds to create those items at cost, and would therefore have more items in terms of value than his non-crafting teammates.
In other words, if you take two 10th level characters, one with crafting feats and one without and give them equal valued equipment, the one with crafting feats is weaker (as he has no benefit currently from those feats).
However, all that aside, there are NO rules (it has been searched for) that suggest that having crafting feats means you can get items you could have crafted at cost during character creation. In fact, starting wealth refers to item value, which makes it pretty clear that a wand that would cost 750 gp has a 750 gp value, even if it was assumed your character crafted that wand for 375 gp.
So your DM was correct, though there are lots of valid arguments for the other side, which is why this is so often debated.
From an in-game perspective the argument is that if you were to play a character from level 1 with crafting feats, that character would be able to use his share of the party funds to create those items at cost, and would therefore have more items in terms of value than his non-crafting teammates.In other words, if you take two 10th level characters, one with crafting feats and one without and give them equal valued equipment, the one with crafting feats is weaker (as he has no benefit currently from those feats).
The problem I have with that argument is that it assumes the party always get's 100% of their treasure in the form of gold bricks, never as items or objects that they sell for 50%.
EDIT : It also assumes that the GM is following WBL guidelines as a guideline on what he hands out, not a guideline on what the party has in equipment at a given level.
My personal belief is that WBL is a guide to what the character should have at a given level, not what they should have received over that many levels. Following this logic allows one to do things like sunder weapons and equipment, because the PCs will find something to replace it and bring their WBL back up to where it should be. Following WBL the way you suggest above would mean that a sundered weapon or item is a giant chunk of money taken out of his WBL, which is never replaced. If we want to go that route, then the item crafting wizard who saves money on items should be rolling to see if any of them got toasted after being created, and he got a chunk of money biten out of his WBL.
Yes, I know, you agreed there's no rules to allow it, not picking on you Treant, just pointing out the logical inconsistency.
Well honestly, if there's a crafter in the party, and the party starts out already knowing each other, then I'd let everyone start off with equipment half off.
But I always tell my PCs to start at max wealth anyways so it's less of an issue.
Well mdt, if you were my DM, I'd just keep most of my gold, introduce my character, and go off to craft for a while. This is undeniably allowed. Why not just skip that step and let them have what they want? They already paid the feat. Or in this case, would you allow my wizard to have only half WBL, whereas everyone else got full WBL?
Having crafting affect WBL leads to the insane idea that 5000gp is in some cases not worth 5000gp, but rather 2500gp. Having it not affect WBL means that 5000 gp is always 5000gp.
Well mdt, if you were my DM, I'd just keep most of my gold, introduce my character, and go off to craft for a while. This is undeniably allowed. Why not just skip that step and let them have what they want? They already paid the feat. Or in this case, would you allow my wizard to have only half WBL, whereas everyone else got full WBL?
Having crafting affect WBL leads to the insane idea that 5000gp is in some cases not worth 5000gp, but rather 2500gp. Having it not affect WBL means that 5000 gp is always 5000gp.
If you were in my game, and walked up with an unequipped character, and wanted to spend the first 3 months of the game crafting, I'd let you. You could show up at each game, and watch everyone else do things. Until 3 months had passed in game. I would then note that your character had 50% more equipment than he should have per WBL, and let everyone else know that I was going to have to cut the item rewards until the party WBL had been reestablished.
Nothing in the rules, not one single passage, says that you can use item creation prior to game start, or use it for WBL when creating a higher.
You have it reversed, the idea that item creation affects WBL would mean that a wizard would have 10,000gp worth of gear while the fighter who got 5,000gp in items would only have 5,000gp worth of equipment to start. You are not wanting to keep your character on par with everyone else, you want twice the equipment anyone else has. If you can't see that, I am afraid there is no reasoning with you.
EDIT : Cheapy, just as a bit of logic test, what you are saying is that one feat is worth 62,000gp at level 10, for a wizard. Do you honestly think that is balanced? Seriously?
When a player in my games asks if they can craft some of their gear with their starting wealth, I tell them yes. But I usually limit that to a 10-20% discount total. Why? Because while they would have been able to get a little more overall wealth out of things due to the liquid cash that they earned, they wouldn't have gotten ahead overall. And if someone tried to start the game with pure liquid assets...I'd do about the same thing as MDT. But they wouldn't gain progress for sessions they weren't there, and I won't do a danged thing to ensure that the party is willing to adventure with you. Oh, and you won't get experience for things where you don't contribute.
Or, more simply, I just tell them: "Please don't try to game the system. If you can't do that, please find another game."
@Stubs : Yep, absolutely. He wouldn't have gained any XP in the intervening 3 months.
@Cydeth : I would be fine with giving them a 10% discount, given they have the feat, but no, not a 200% bonus to equipment, which is what is being argued they get.
Something to point out, just because they have the ability to make something shouldn't mean a instant discount. First, do they have the means to make the items like tools, forge or a lab? How about time? Also they have to make the craft check, a check that if made bad enough the material can be ruined beyond use.
@Stubs : Yep, absolutely. He wouldn't have gained any XP in the intervening 3 months.
@Cydeth : I would be fine with giving them a 10% discount, given they have the feat, but no, not a 200% bonus to equipment, which is what is being argued they get.
Oh, I completely agree. *shrugs* I just have my own tendencies. Though I admit to being somewhat non-confrontational...and the way these discussions go on the 'net tends to keep me more of a lurker.
Oh, I completely agree. *shrugs* I just have my own tendencies. Though I admit to being somewhat non-confrontational...and the way these discussions go on the 'net tends to keep me more of a lurker.@Stubs : Yep, absolutely. He wouldn't have gained any XP in the intervening 3 months.
@Cydeth : I would be fine with giving them a 10% discount, given they have the feat, but no, not a 200% bonus to equipment, which is what is being argued they get.
LOL, no need to lurk, just ignore the posters that get under your skin. :) Or who post insulting attacks, that's what I (try) to do. :)
Sorry if my post seemed confrontational, I was just agreeing with you. :)
Nah, it's nothing you said...and I'm trying to figure out why I felt the need to post that...ah, that's it. To explain why I may drop off the face of the earth after a little while, that's it!
*is a lurker, through and through*
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Also, don't forget having a craft feat does not guarantee success.
For mundane items, if you fail you make no progress during that week. If you fail by 5 or more, you lose half the material costs and need to replace them.
For magic items, if the check fails, the time spent and the materials are wasted. If the check fails be 5 or more, the item created is cursed. Nothing like starting out with a cursed item.
EDIT: ninja'd by JT.
I've often wanted to play with a cursed magic item. Makes it neat, IMO, as long as the curse isn't crippling.
The other one I've wanted to play is an intelligent magic item that's running around in the clone that my wizard creator made of himself. The idea of him creating a clone of himself as a child, and then creating an intelligent magic item to drive it around while it grew up, then it running away to avoid being 'killed', just strikes me as hilarious.
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@mdt: So just to be clear: Are you saying that if I make a wizard in your game, and at level 5 I make a wand of magic missile, I'll get less loot in the next dungeon because I only had to pay the sell price instead of the buy price?
If that's the case, then doesn't that mean the crafting feats actually hurt you when you take them instead of helping? If that is in fact how you deal with crafting feats, then evidently nobody should take them in your game, it's like throwing a feat away. If that's not the case, it's not immediately evident from your post.
I'm not sure I'd allow a 10th level character character to get double gear through crafting feats, because if the game had progressed naturally (with me tracking what I give out by WBL, and not monitoring the party's inventory very closely) they wouldnt have been able to use their crafting on EVERYTHING. But at level 1? the gold value of that half-price gear is pretty small, I'd probably allow it (though if we were level 10 and a player approached me with this, I'd probably come up with a table of how much gear they're entitled to get 50% off by level). Likewise for the fighter crafting his own armor.
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Well mdt, if you were my DM, I'd just keep most of my gold, introduce my character, and go off to craft for a while. This is undeniably allowed. Why not just skip that step and let them have what they want? They already paid the feat. Or in this case, would you allow my wizard to have only half WBL, whereas everyone else got full WBL?
Having crafting affect WBL leads to the insane idea that 5000gp is in some cases not worth 5000gp, but rather 2500gp. Having it not affect WBL means that 5000 gp is always 5000gp.
No, but the argument could be made that in spending so much time crafting when you should be learning what is required for your chosen class, you could start play with more equipment, but a penalty related to your class.
For example, a fight with Craft(weapon) decides he wants to start off with MW Greatsword made from his own hand. GP Cost would be 122gp (barring any failures). Time would easily be about 9 weeks, longer with any failures. Note this, assumes a result of 20 on the Craft check with the DC at 20 for the MW component and DC 15 for the base item ... of course, with a +5 modifier (+1 INT, 1 rank and +3 Class skill), the character is most likely going to fail a good bit. To be generous, let's say 6 failures (rolls under 15) with 1 failure by more than 5. That will bump up the time to 15 weeks and the cost to 183gp.
Now then, your character just spent almost the equivalent of a semester in college creating that sword. If you spent the entirety of a semester in school not doing what you were supposed to be doing (studying) and instead made a sword, do you think you would pass that semester?
Bottom line is there should be a balance for making such a demand as reducing initial costs by using craft skills.
@mdt: So just to be clear: Are you saying that if I make a wizard in your game, and at level 5 I make a wand of magic missile, I'll get less loot in the next dungeon because I only had to pay the sell price instead of the buy price?
Not immediately. What I usually do is, check everyone's WBL every 2-3 levels. The reason to get crafting feats should not be to boost WBL. If you do so, then you are throwing the CR calculations for fights out of balance. If you don't believe that, try putting 5,000gp of equipment on four first level characters, and then throw a CR+2 at them. They'll mince it to pieces.
WBL indicates how much equipment a character should have, per the base rules of the game, in order to be balanced against the rest of the system.
If that's the case, then doesn't that mean the crafting feats actually hurt you when you take them instead of helping? If that is in fact how you deal with crafting feats, then evidently nobody should take them in your game, it's like throwing a feat away. If that's not the case, it's not immediately evident from your post.
Not at all, the entire point of the item creation feats is, and should be, about what you have, not how much you have. The item creation feats should be used to make sure you have exactly the gear you want, rather than the gear you found. If you are using it to double your WBL, then you are gaming the system and skewing the CR/WBL/CL formula widely out of balance.
I'm not sure I'd allow a 10th level character character to get double gear through crafting feats, because if the game had progressed naturally (with me tracking what I give out by WBL, and not monitoring the party's inventory very closely) they wouldnt have been able to use their crafting on EVERYTHING. But at level 1? the gold value of that half-price gear is pretty small, I'd probably allow it (though if we were level 10 and a player approached me with this, I'd probably come up with a table of how much gear they're entitled to get 50% off by level). Likewise for the fighter crafting his own armor.
Or, you can just go with the WBL tables, which are already balanced for the system, or maybe give a 10% bonus or something, which is still a bonus, but can be handled within the CR/WBL/CL formula wihtout ripping it apart.
Perform / Profession checks are neatly dealt with by Wealth by Level. :)
So is the fact that while the rest of friends were out adventuring and getting even more loot the wizard was stuck at home in his laboratory.
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Hmm. Interesting. I've seen two approaches on WBL in this thread, and it sounds like you're using the one I've never seen people use before, and just heard about in this thread.
Method 1: WBL indicates the total amount of treasure the GM throws at the party. Either as the base amount, or the GM adjusts for stuff the party is likely to just sell, so that at each level, they have *acquired* the amount of wealth indicated on the table. Do they still have that much value in stuff? Generally not.
Method 2: WBL indicates how much they have in usable stuff. Assume anything they have that they can't use is worth half value in gold. If they're above the curve, you can give them less stuff until they fall back in line with it. This requires more bookkeeping (and I've never seen a GM check inventory after character creation, and as such its never occurred to me to do the same.)
That about sum it up? So you dont control so much for how much loot you've sent out, as you do for how much stuff the player has?
And if somehow the group has less than their WBL in stuff, (Say because they ended up selling everything for half price and had little they could actually use) you raise the value of the loot to compensate?
Method 2: WBL indicates how much they have in usable stuff. Assume anything they have that they can't use is worth half value in gold. If they're above the curve, you can give them less stuff until they fall back in line with it. This requires more bookkeeping (and I've never seen a GM check inventory after character creation, and as such its never occurred to me to do the same.)That about sum it up? So you dont control so much for how much loot you've sent out, as you do for how much stuff the player has?
And if somehow the group has less than their WBL in stuff, (Say because they ended up selling everything for half price and had little they could actually use) you raise the value of the loot to compensate?
Pretty much, yeah. I just am not obvious about it in game. I keep copies of everyone's character sheets, that way if they are not at a game for some reason, we have the sheet for reference. I just go through and add up all the party equipment and such every 2 to 4 levels, and make sure they're within spitting distance of WBL. If they're a level or two behind, I toss some extra stuff out (either things they can't use, or things they can). Then in a couple of levels, I check again. I like the flexibility it gives me, as I don't have to worry about removing items in game. For example, if I sunder the fighter's big two handed sword, I know they'll get enough in a few games to replace it and bring them back up where they should be. It's not as if it is hard to do, or all that time consuming. It's just jotting down the value, and totaling it all up. Maybe an hour every few months.
I've run games with nothing but monstrous PCs and still had them within spitting distance of WBL, and things were still easy to guage for CR.
MDT: so what do you do when Fighter bob is at WBL but merlin the one stop crafting center is well ahead of it?
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The problem I have with that argument is that it assumes the party always get's 100% of their treasure in the form of gold bricks, never as items or objects that they sell for 50%....
It makes no such assumption.
Take 2 characters, we'll make them both Clerics.
Cleric A likes feats that improve his abilities, so he gets feats that improve his ability to fight or cast spells.
Cleric B likes to save money so he gets crafting feats so he can make magic items at cost rather than buying them at retail.
Both Cleric A and B adventure until they reach 10th level. During this time they collect the same amount of gold, magic items, and other assorted treasure.
Both Cleric A and B have been collecting magic items that aren't appropriate for them, so they sell them as they get them. Both Clerics get 50% the retail for the items sold.
Cleric A must now buy magic items that are appropriate for his character, he pays full retail.
Cleric B now crafts magic items that are appropriate for his character, he pays 1/2 retail.
Although Cleric A is tougher due to feats that aid him in combat, this advantage is tempered by the fact that Cleric B is now better equipped. At level 10 these characters will be of similar power for this reason.
However, if you make both characters starting at level 10, Cleric B gets hosed. Now Cleric A is more powerful because he keeps his advantage over Cleric B, but Cleric B loses his advantage over Cleric A.
I realize that if you sell an item at 50% and craft an item at 50% it's a wash. However, for non crafting characters, they are selling at 50% and buying at 100%, so comparatively, the crafting character will have more stuff.
You have a Fighter, a Wizard, a Rogue, and a Cleric.
You find a magic variants of: Longsword, kukri, wand, greataxe, Boots of Elvenkind, a Ring of Swim, a Censer of Faithfulness and a Staff of Necromancy. Assume they are all additionally enchanted so each item is the same price.
Due to these players' builds, they choose to keep the Longsword, wand, boots of elvenkind and Censer of Faithfulness; the other items aren't useful to them, or they choose not to use them (such as items with Evil spells).
The "Item Creation Feats' Benefit is Cherrypicking" philosophy is that you normally have two options:
You receive some useful items, and you keep the rest around in case it's useful or;
You sell those suboptimal items, gaining 50% back, and spending it on cherrypicked gold.
Thus, the DM has sent his Gold-per-encounter at you; he doesn't care what you do with it. If you were to receive an even mix of useful items, then you may have 50% perfectly optimal items and 50% suboptimal; or you may sell off the excess, leaving yourself with cherrypicked magic items valued at 75% your Wealth By Level.
These DMs argue that the benefit of the magic item creation feats is getting the best bang for your buck when dealing with a DM that throws the recommended Treasure Per Encounter at you, doesn't care what you do with it, and isn't going to readjust your wealth to meet Wealth By Level naturally. Thus, if your party was selling off and rebuying to get a total 75% earlier, then item creation feats would keep you neatly at 100% wealth by level with exactly what you want.
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Ok so nothing to do with the class but crafting feats the rules are a gray area and its more of DMs discretion then?
Pretty much yes.
Any idea what would have given him this idea? was it that way in a one of the old D&D editions?
Some gaming groups run things where characters who take crafting feats can use their starting 'wealth' as gold and craft all their starting items they could create using the feats.
We don't run our game that way, but then we also don't tend to start at 10th level either so it's not much of a problem.
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Both Cleric A and B have been collecting magic items that aren't appropriate for them, so they sell them as they get them. Both Clerics get 50% the retail for the items sold.
Cleric A must now buy magic items that are appropriate for his character, he pays full retail.
Cleric B now crafts magic items that are appropriate for his character, he pays 1/2 retail.
This works if you assume 100% of items are sold. I've never played in a group that ran things that way though. Generally we wind up keeping 70-80% of the treasure we find and everyone has a hodgepodge of random gear but frequently most of the bases are covered using found stuff so there is no savings. Rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, magic armor, etc are all pretty common and all very useful to PCs so there is little or no savings for Cleric B there.
In an organic campaign Cleric B is almost certain to have a gear advantage bit it's nothing like twice the gear of Cleric A.
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Both Cleric A and B have been collecting magic items that aren't appropriate for them, so they sell them as they get them. Both Clerics get 50% the retail for the items sold.
Cleric A must now buy magic items that are appropriate for his character, he pays full retail.
Cleric B now crafts magic items that are appropriate for his character, he pays 1/2 retail.
This works if you assume 100% of items are sold. I've never played in a group that ran things that way though. Generally we wind up keeping 70-80% of the treasure we find and everyone has a hodgepodge of random gear but frequently most of the bases are covered using found stuff so there is no savings. Rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, magic armor, etc are all pretty common and all very useful to PCs so there is little or no savings for Cleric B there.
In an organic campaign Cleric B is almost certain to have a gear advantage bit it's nothing like twice the gear of Cleric A.
In the campaigns I've played you may as well have sold everything: Here's the standard loot dividing system that I've seen in the past few groups I've been in (excluding the oddball group that did a single pool of items and money and bought things that way):
You go through the dungeon, pick up some items, treasure, and expendables. Anything that can be used in the dungeon is passed to the people who can use them, same goes for consumeables - however, these players do not yet own any of the items.The players get back to town. They tally the total value of money, gems, and art objects (which sell for full value) appraising anything that needs appraising. They also determine the sell value of every single other object they found in the dungeon. This give them a gold value total. Divide the gold value total by the number of people who participated in the dungeon (If Bob hasn't been here since before the dungeon started, they dont give him anything).
Now each player has a total gold value. They roll dice to randomly determine cherry-picking order. In the sequence rolled, they get to lay claim to items found in the dungeon (assuming they can use them). Picking the item, means, its sell price is deducted from your total. You keep going until nobody wants anything thats left or youre out of items. Healing items and items that remove status effects are kept and the cost divided equally between the group. (They tried making the bard pay for the cure wand with his share, which resulted in him charging them for each charge of the wand to make up for the skimped treasure. They're benefitting from it, why should he have to pay for all of it - good for him.) They got the point, and now divide these things evenly, so youre paying for the stuff that will get used on you, not the stuff that benefits the whole group. Anything left over at the end gets sold off, and you get the cash value left over from your total.
This results in everyone getting an exactly even share of whats found in the dungeon (assuming they went to the dungeon and participated). Even share is denoted by sell value.
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Hit Max Post length.
So the clerics in this arrangement, would get exactly the same sell value of loot. They're both finding stuff (and have to roll to find out who can take it), but of the stuff that wasn't in the dungeon, Cleric B is crafting it, and Cleric A is either buying at full price or paying Cleric B materials to craft it (likely with a 10% markup or some such for cleric B's trouble.) B is making a small profit, but A is getting it for far cheaper than full price.
So Cleric B will be ahead in total value of gear.
But as mentioned, it will be nowhere near approaching the value of double. Likely more like 120% his share, whereas Cleric A has like 80-85% his share (assuming he's smart enough to get some help from cleric B's crafting).
[P.S.]This also means for Cleric A to get something by himself that isn't factored into his share, he needs to do a side thing all by himself. Potentially doing a fight by himself when in town or something. But any players who help him will claim an even share of whats found. If you give him *ONE* item for his trouble, he has to sell it, or pay out of pocket for the difference in sell price to anyone who helped.
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If you're willing to take a really long time when creating characters above 1st level, you can avoid any sort of crafting controversy. For each level, determine what treasure you would have awarded for that level, allow the party to sell any items they don't want, and allow each character X amount of time for crafting. Repeat for each level gained.
Doing that takes a really long time, but eliminates any uncertainty about what wealth is and isn't available for crafting.
I like that Idea. It's something you'd really only ever have to do once (you can use the same list of loot for next time.)
You have it reversed, the idea that item creation affects WBL would mean that a wizard would have 10,000gp worth of gear while the fighter who got 5,000gp in items would only have 5,000gp worth of equipment to start. You are not wanting to keep your character on par with everyone else, you want twice the equipment anyone else has. If you can't see that, I am afraid there is no reasoning with you.
Why on earth wouldn't that character craft stuff for his friends? One guy has craft wondrous and the whole group benefits, not just the crafter, in fact him less so because he's out a feat slot.
As I've stated in other threads, I think it's a reasonable compromise that between 10 and 25% of your starting treasure when creating higher level characters and using the WBL guidelines, should be coins. You could therefore craft SOME items but not all of your wealth would be from coins, as it wouldn't be through adventuring anyway. There's still a benefit, and one that can be shared with the whole party, but it's hardly doubling your wealth.
MDT: so what do you do when Fighter bob is at WBL but merlin the one stop crafting center is well ahead of it?
Group of 5 level 5 characters. Each has a WBL of 10,500. That's 52,500 gp in items for the groups WBL. Every group I've ever been in, if Wally Wiz has 15,000 gp in items, and everyone else has 7,500 gp in items, they self select Wally out of the treasure (usually Wally does this himself). So it's self correcting in my experience.
I realize that if you sell an item at 50% and craft an item at 50% it's a wash. However, for non crafting characters, they are selling at 50% and buying at 100%, so comparatively, the crafting character will have more stuff.
You are looking at them as static characters, in different groups. And in that case, yes, it's possible. If they are both in the same group, what tends to happen is that the players themselves self select to rebalance. I've seen it over and over, so the cleric who is crafting his own stuff either offers to craft the other cleric's stuff for him, or he says something along the lines of 'Nah, I'm good, you guys need blah more than I do'.
Lengthy explanation.My group do it this way too. it has been the system in use at least from the start of 3rd edition.
This is what I was talking about above, it's not always hammered out in the detail Darkholme's group does it, but every group I've been with tried to make sure everyone got the same general level of equipment over time.
You have it reversed, the idea that item creation affects WBL would mean that a wizard would have 10,000gp worth of gear while the fighter who got 5,000gp in items would only have 5,000gp worth of equipment to start. You are not wanting to keep your character on par with everyone else, you want twice the equipment anyone else has. If you can't see that, I am afraid there is no reasoning with you.Why on earth wouldn't that character craft stuff for his friends? One guy has craft wondrous and the whole group benefits, not just the crafter, in fact him less so because he's out a feat slot.
As I've stated in other threads, I think it's a reasonable compromise that between 10 and 25% of your starting treasure when creating higher level characters and using the WBL guidelines, should be coins. You could therefore craft SOME items but not all of your wealth would be from coins, as it wouldn't be through adventuring anyway. There's still a benefit, and one that can be shared with the whole party, but it's hardly doubling your wealth.
You're making a few assumptions :
1) Everyone is making a 10th level character at the same time.
This is rarely true. Usually someone is making a 10th level character to replace his 10th level character that died. Or he's joining a game that already exists. Now you're letting him start with 134,000gp in items if you let him use his feats, this is twice the gear of anyone else in the game at that point. Do you consider that fair? I don't.
2) Everyone knew each other from level 1 if they are all making characters of 10th level for a new game.
This is sort of self explanatory about why it's a logical falacy, just see 1 above (people quit/retire/die and are replaced).
3) You completely ignore the fact the system is balanced against WBL/CL/CR.
You are ignoring the fact, as I stated above, which you didn't quote, that the system is balanced against Wealth By Level / Class Level / Challenge Rating. That means that if you increase one but not the other two, things get skewed out of balance. You suggest letting everyone have up to 2x WBL because one person took one feat. Please think about that. You are now saying a group of 10th level characters should have 134,000gp of gold each in equipment. That is several bumps up on the WBL chart, at a minimum. That means the CL/CR part is not changing, but the WBL is doubling. That completely and totally blows the balance in the system. At any level, if you have someone equipped with twice the equipment they are designed to have, it will blow them out of the balance of the system.
EDIT : Sorry, I misread your last sentance. I thought you said 10% of starting wealth was unreasonable, not reasonable. I'm ok with 10%, the system balance can handle WBL variances of 10% without breaking, 25% is pushing it REALLY hard.