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Matt it has nothing to do with game breaking. Its about the guys who want to role play and not do every side mission. We had a guy who was doing an Andoran mission and was supposed to kill a slaver and say "'Andoran dude' sends his regards."
Problem in this scenario might exist when we take the guy prisoner and he says if you spare me, I'll surrender. The party agrees. Now the guy is tied up and helpless. What's the LG Paladin supposed to do now? Execute a tied up guy to get his +1 Prestige point? And he's going to kill a guy who surrendered in return for his life. So, he's a LG oath breaking Paladin, who murders enemies who have surrendered to him on the condition of having their life spared? These boons are for those guys, who might miss out on having a +2 weapon due to their Role-Playing vs Roll Playing, which seems to be the attitude of a lot of players.
I can't remember if it was ever officially stated, but the expectation is that a character will earn about 75% of the total prestige available to them. It is assumed that characters will fail or turn down the occasional faction mission. The scenarios are written with that balance in mind.
Part of the idea of the Fame cap is to limit how out-of-control characters can get by playing up. Even if they play up whenever possible, they'll still be subject to the same Fame limitations of any character of the same level, so they can't show up with a +3 weapon at level 5 (or whatever).
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...We had a guy who was doing an Andoran mission and was supposed to kill a slaver and say "'Andoran dude' sends his regards."
Problem in this scenario might exist when the party takes the guy prisoner who says "if you spare me, I'll surrender". The party agrees.
...
Sounds like a GM who likes to trap paladins.
Speaking as my paladin or Torag, I'd certainly not agree. "What manner of creature are you, to profit from the wretched misery of others and then toss aside your sword when you think your reckoning comes 'round? Pick up your weapon and die with what little tawdry honor you can muster. Or kneel, if you prefer execution. But know that Torag spares not the guilty who turn coward, and today I am his man."
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I'm sorry if my tone was accusatory, I guess I was feeling a bit bitter that I might be getting left behind GP wise. You're right on, Eric - I haven't seen many chronicles award anything I could afford right away, so my point really was off base.
I also see your point about faction missions. Andoran misisons are notorious for this exact problem.
Still, the wealth cap is tied to Fame and not Presitge, correct? Does failing to complete your faction mission also impact Fame? I forget the rules on that one.
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I'm sorry if my tone was accusatory, I guess I was feeling a bit bitter that I might be getting left behind GP wise. You're right on, Eric - I haven't seen many chronicles award anything I could afford right away, so my point really was off base.
I also see your point about faction missions. Andoran misisons are notorious for this exact problem.
Still, the wealth cap is tied to Fame and not Presitge, correct? Does failing to complete your faction mission also impact Fame? I forget the rules on that one.
Prestige is your current amount of Prestige Points. Fame is the total amount of Prestige Points you've earned (including those spent). So failing a Faction Mission very much impacts your Fame.
That said, Fame does not cap wealth (gold accumulated), just the amount you can spend on a single item.
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...We had a guy who was doing an Andoran mission and was supposed to kill a slaver and say "'Andoran dude' sends his regards."
Problem in this scenario might exist when the party takes the guy prisoner who says "if you spare me, I'll surrender". The party agrees.
...Sounds like a GM who likes to trap paladins.
Speaking as my paladin or Torag, I'd certainly not agree. "What manner of creature are you, to profit from the wretched misery of others and then toss aside your sword when you think your reckoning comes 'round? Pick up your weapon and die with what little tawdry honor you can muster. Or kneel, if you prefer execution. But know that Torag spares not the guilty who turn coward, and today I am his man."
Not knowing about eachother’s faction missions, we had two guys. One had to question the guy, the other had to give him a message with a dagger to end the message. So guy one says, surrender and we’ll let you live. (He’s the one that needs to interrogate homeboy.) LG character on the other hand is the Andoran who’s supposed to deliver a message and the killing blow.
So, bad guy is singing everything he needs to in return for his life. He’s trussed up like a pig at market and now the LG guy is supposed to do what? The bad guy surrendered to a party member who needed to capture him. I’m not going to dishonor myself by letting the guy kill an unarmed, tied up prisoner. I’m LN, that ain’t happenin on my watch if I can help it. And his hands are tied since he’s LG if he role-plays it. So your option was not available, unless they went into PvP mode to see if the guy would be allowed to surrender or not.
Sorry, my memory was not that good, since it happened a few weeks ago but the LG player didn't have a choice.
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And sometimes that happens (more so with NG and LG Silver Crusade players who get the Andoran faction missions). Something roughly similar happens in God's Market Gamble (with a catch that both factions can complete their faction missions if done correctly, but it's quite possible and not uncommon for a dispute to occur).
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Mr Compton, could you see if we can get it approved to buy Cure Moderate wands, Cure serious wands and Cure Critical wand with PA?
Healing is already pretty ferociously efficient and widespread with low-cost sources for cure light wounds and infernal healing. I see little reason to open up higher level wands as prestige-only purchases. Remember that once those wands are made available through prestige channels, it's a short step to all wands of any level becoming permanently available via prestige. For the sake of GMs and game balance everywhere, I think I will leave this well alone.
Beyond this point, I am finding it difficult to understand what is being argued in this thread. Is this a complaint about the limitations on purchases set by Fame? Is this a request for more flexibly-applied enhancement modifiers showing up on Chronicle sheets? Is this a request for yet better things on Chronicle sheets?
If it is this last point, I recommend playing at least two of the scenarios published since March 2013 and seeing if that revises your stance.
Help me to understand your argument by checking your terms. "Boons" are special awards that are not purchased. "Items Found" are items with prices listed on the Chronicle sheet that a character can purchase without any Fame limitation.
Let's kindly steer this thread back to its original purpose. Please move the debate about who earned what prestige and why to another thread. Let's drop the accusations of cheating and "badwrongfun;" from my reading of these arguments, they do not contribute in a meaningful way to this debate or to the health of this community.
Is this a request for yet better things on Chronicle sheets?
If it is this last point, I recommend playing at least two of the scenarios published since March 2013 and seeing if that revises your stance.
John,
I'll be playing Halls of Dwarven Lore this coming Sunday, so I will hold you to this statement.
:)
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Is this a request for yet better things on Chronicle sheets?
If it is this last point, I recommend playing at least two of the scenarios published since March 2013 and seeing if that revises your stance.
John,
I'll be playing Halls of Dwarven Lore this coming Sunday, so I will hold you to this statement.
:)
Sounds like a plan.
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Its a +2 Flaming Burst Great Axe 32,320 gp. And at lvl. 5, it is way beyond my characters fame limit.
who cares if its beyond your fame limit. If its on a chronicle sheet, you can buy it without needing the fame. That's why those items are listed on the chronicle sheet.
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Its a +2 Flaming Burst Great Axe 32,320 gp. And at lvl. 5, it is way beyond my characters fame limit.who cares if its beyond your fame limit. If its on a chronicle sheet, you can buy it without needing the fame. That's why those items are listed on the chronicle sheet.
But think of the munchkins!!!! How will the munchkins who play up since level 1 with their uber (and possibly not legal) characters get their uberness fulfilled if they can not bypass the fame exactly how THEY want it with the weapon of their choice? Basically Eric wants the fame spending cap removed for all intents and purposes. Which, even if there wasn't SEVERAL option to get stupid with wealth, it just a bad idea for game balance reasons. But the thing is, he from various other posts, ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to see thing from a campaign wide PoV. Basically, from a society wide rules issue, he does not understand...not even close and he doesn't WANT to understand from what I see of his posts so far.
FYI, playing up in the extreme since level 1 will get you ~33k by level 5. 6 scenarios of 4-5 followed by 6 scenarios of 6-7. This is of course an EXTREME fringe case.
Also I do not like the current fame purchase limits. They are WAY too restricting at lower levels and become pretty much carte blanche after level 9. I mean seriously, at level 9 with full prestige, your spending limit 1 fame shy of MORE then what your total WBL should be for a level 9. And if you fail all or most of your faction mission, your purchase limit is utterly fubared. So fame should be based on completing PRIMARY missions ONLY. The purchase limits need to be changed of course, I would say use base 3 and just use half WBL limit. (so 3 = 500, 6 = 1500...so a level 9 has a limit of 23k instead of 41k...this should help with people having extra gold from playing up as well). The extra prestige can of course still be earned to gain extra prestige purchase power, but not increase fame.
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I'm going to ignore the personal insults by the guy who hides behind a screen name.
In regards to John's question, the request was for boons that would be of value.
For example: 4-15 The Cyphermage Dilema has some pretty poor boons for Tier 4-5
Studded Leather +2 4,175gp
Why?
Mithral Chainshirt +1 costs half of this and is superior in every possible way. Also, the Mithral Chainshirt +1 would set a player back 2,250gp instead of 4,175gp.
So, the request is for boons to have a little more wiggle room because I do not know of one single person who would pick the Studded Leather +2 over the Mithal Shirt +1, shown above.
The more interesting boons would be:
+2 enchantment to light armor
+2 enchantment to medium armor
+2 enchantment to heavy armor
+2 enchantment to a ranged weapon
+2 enchantment to a 2 handed melee weapon
+2 enchantment to an exotic weapon
+2 enchantment to a 1 handed melee weapon
Now any of these would be boons of significant interest to players of all caliber. While, Studded Leather +2 feels like an attempt to trick a new player who doesn't know any better.
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Common, seriously? You're telling me that you think a lvl. 9 pathfinder shouldn't have access to a +2 weapon of his choice?My level 7 goblin has barely enough fame to buy a +2 weapon. If it wasn't for other kind Grand Lodge faction members I'd have less than 20 fame.
if I ever get a goblin boon i will make it my personal mission to be as cowardly as possible ( aka hardly any fame)
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Matt it has nothing to do with game breaking. Its about the guys who want to role play and not do every side mission. We had a guy who was doing an Andoran mission and was supposed to kill a slaver and say "'Andoran dude' sends his regards."
Is there another Matt in this thread? This has nothing to do with my question. I wass asking about the Original post, where the original poster was lamenting that the sheet has a +2 flaming burst axe, and he didn't like that he couldn't just have the 'flaming burst' property. I was saying I don't see an issue.
I'll wait for the OP to reply to my question.
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Matt I am the OP. Next, I thought I was answering your question.
Like I mentioned before, its not about getting 'game breaking' boons as you implied. It was about making actual boons available to more than 1 in a 500 people. And not punishing Role Players for not having all their faction missions completed.
Who here uses a greataxe? Anyone? So, what are the chances of you buying this Greataxe, if you do own one? Anyone want to do the math on that?
My point was, that a boon is only a boon if someone actually wants it, otherwise its just filler. Studded Leather +2 being a nice filler but not a boon.
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Ah. I assumed as I didn't see your post address my question, there must be anotehr Eric, as there was another Matthew you were replying to.
First, it's not a boon. It's an item on the sheet. It represents something found. To that end, it's akin to Laughing Eric's Sword on the Winter Witch chronicle sheet. All the sword is is a +1 throwing, returning longsword, but it's the same kind of memento/relation the axe is.
If I understand your original post, you don't want a +2 flaming burst axe, you want a +2 flaming burst whatever, or the sheet to allow you to add flaming burst to your existing bow.
Nope, still not seeing an issue as it currently exists.
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And that's cool Matt. I personally wish the boons actually offered something worth getting though. At least in the weapon and armor department. The Greataxe is a good example of an item that won't be picked up by anyone but a Half-Orc.
A weapon +2 boon would have been great. Seeing as you might have finished this scenario at lvl. 4 and you could get your +2 weapon prior to lvl. 5.66. I'm not asking for game breaking boons but things that can actually be used, other than limited charge wands. Those are nice but I'm asking for a bit more.
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And that's cool Matt. I personally wish the boons actually offered something worth getting though. At least in the weapon and armor department. The Greataxe is a good example of an item that won't be picked up by anyone but a Half-Orc.
A weapon +2 boon would have been great. Seeing as you might have finished this scenario at lvl. 4 and you could get your +2 weapon prior to lvl. 5.66. I'm not asking for game breaking boons but things that can actually be used, other than limited charge wands. Those are nice but I'm asking for a bit more.
Eric, that is not a "boon". As Jiggy pointed out above, calling it a boon is causing confusion, even to John Compton, then one you probably want to be convincing.
A boon is a special bonus on a chronicle sheet, such as
You are discussing an item from the scenario that is listed on the chronicle sheet. This is not the same as a boon.
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Eric:
1. Items Found are not Boons. They are completely different concepts. You are wanting Items Found to be things-that-are-awesome. They are not. They are just things that your character found on that scenario, and so are available for you to purchase.
2. Boons are intended to give small mechanical benefits. Often they are simple +1 bonuses, or one-time rerolls, or something small like that. Again, I think you are wanting more awesome.
3. There is nothing wrong with having a character fully optimized--I play some pretty strong characters--but there is a consistent overture to your posts that un-optimized characters are bad or "a waste of space." This is not true. Please stop.
Personally, I am delighted there is a +2 studded leather on one of the chronicles that I have. My character is saving up the gold so she can buy that one. Yes, I know it is mechanically worse than a +1 mithral chain shirt. I get more out of this game than mechanical calculus, however.
Regarding the greataxe, I have seen too many greataxe-wielding characters to count!
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I will briefly reiterate what I recall another poster observed earlier. Adding a weapon enhancement as a blanket, "always available" purchase option can potentially mess up the Fame purchase limits in very strange ways. Allow me to illustrate with the example of ]flaming burst (a +2 bonus). If a sheet simply allowed a character to purchase the flaming burst property with no regard to what his or her present weapon's enhancement is, the actual benefit would vary wildly depending on the weapon's qualities before enchantment.
+1 -> +1 flaming burst = 16,000 gp in difference (not too crazy)
+2 -> +2 flaming burst = 24,000 gp in difference (a little crazier)
+3 -> +3 flaming burst = 32,000 gp in difference (whoa!)
+4 -> +4 flaming burst = 40,000 gp in difference (eep?)
+5 -> +5 flaming burst = 48,000 gp in difference (ouch)
That's without considering the ramifications of a particularly high-level PC having an effective +9 weapon (+5 keen speed greataxe?) and then getting a boon that allows him to add flaming burst. That would make an effective +11 weapon, which is not only not on the charts; it arguably doesn't even exist in the Pathfinder campaign setting outside of major artifacts. If the player were to gain some other boons that do a similar thing, could that character end up with a +5 keen speed flaming burst dancing vicious greataxe, barring character wealth?
As you can see, the logistics of this approach is a can of purple worms I'm not looking to open further. Perhaps a "Hey, you can now purchase +2 weapons willy-nilly" boon would be cool, but I would want to tie it an in-game reason for a character to have that option. Picking up a +2 spear does not enable a person to suddenly purchase +2 weapons of all other types. Being owed a favor by a master weapon-crafter might make more sense.
Beyond that, my challenge stands. Play two or more of the scenarios released since March and let me know if your opinion changes.
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....That would make an effective +11 weapon, which is not only not on the charts; it arguably doesn't even exist in the Pathfinder campaign setting outside of major artifacts....
Interesting possibility but not allowed by Pathfinder rules. I thought that there was a hardcap of +10. Am I incorrect about that?
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....That would make an effective +11 weapon, which is not only not on the charts; it arguably doesn't even exist in the Pathfinder campaign setting outside of major artifacts....Interesting possibility but not allowed by Pathfinder rules. I thought that there was a hardcap of +10. Am I incorrect about that?
That's why I used it as an example of an interesting idea that could lead to unforeseen consequences.
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I will briefly reiterate what I recall another poster observed earlier. Adding a weapon enhancement as a blanket, "always available" purchase option can potentially mess up the Fame purchase limits in very strange ways. Allow me to illustrate with the example of ]flaming burst (a +2 bonus). If a sheet simply allowed a character to purchase the flaming burst property with no regard to what his or her present weapon's enhancement is, the actual benefit would vary wildly depending on the weapon's qualities before enchantment.
+1 -> +1 flaming burst = 16,000 gp in difference (not too crazy)
+2 -> +2 flaming burst = 24,000 gp in difference (a little crazier)
+3 -> +3 flaming burst = 32,000 gp in difference (whoa!)
+4 -> +4 flaming burst = 40,000 gp in difference (eep?)
+5 -> +5 flaming burst = 48,000 gp in difference (ouch)That's without considering the ramifications of a particularly high-level PC having an effective +9 weapon (+5 keen speed greataxe?) and then getting a boon that allows him to add flaming burst. That would make an effective +11 weapon, which is not only not on the charts; it arguably doesn't even exist in the Pathfinder campaign setting outside of major artifacts. If the player were to gain some other boons that do a similar thing, could that character end up with a +5 keen speed flaming burst dancing vicious greataxe, barring character wealth?
As you can see, the logistics of this approach is a can of purple worms I'm not looking to open further. Perhaps a "Hey, you can now purchase +2 weapons willy-nilly" boon would be cool, but I would want to tie it an in-game reason for a character to have that option. Picking up a +2 spear does not enable a person to suddenly purchase +2 weapons of all other types. Being owed a favor by a master weapon-crafter might make more sense.
Beyond that, my challenge stands. Play two or more of the scenarios released since March and let me know if your opinion changes.
Just as a thought, what about making a +2 Flaming Burst [insert weapon of choice here] available, instead of a +2 Flaming Burst Greataxe? Would this avoid the quoted issue?
Please note I am not talking the specifics but rather a general concept.
To be absolutely clear, I am not arguing about the current rules but offering a suggestion that I think might be balanced, cool, and could answer some of the OPs concerns.
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I would think the Hardcap rule, overrides any number of possible enchantments. At lvl. 19 I could potentially have the necessary Fame for a 800,000gp weapon which would mean that I could have the Fame for a +16 weapon. The Hardcap rule, still overrides my Fame ability, or at least I thought it did?
Because if it can't then giving all the things you mentioned, would still limit it to a +10 cap and no one would be able to improve a weapon above the +10 cap.
Mind you, I'm willing to drop the issue since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere but the ability to do +1 Flameburst offered on a sheet would likely not break the game. No more than an archer with all his feats already does, at least.
Or at least a +2 enchantment to Heavy Armor. It'd be nice to buy a Mithral Full Plate +2, without being limited to +1 forever.
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For example: 4-15 The Cyphermage Dilema has some pretty poor boons for Tier 4-5
Just so you know, Cyphermage was actually a Season 3 special that could only be run by Venture Officers. It was opened up for general play in Season 4, but it wouldn't include any of the changes made for other Season 4 scenarios.
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Christine Stiles won the first year of RPG Superstar with a wondrous item that transferred a magical dwoemer from one weapon to another, so long as the second one were a non-magical, masterwork weapon to begin with.
I would second the request to provide a boon like "25% discount on the purchase of any +1, holy or +2, guardian weapon".
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For example: 4-15 The Cyphermage Dilema has some pretty poor boons for Tier 4-5Just so you know, Cyphermage was actually a Season 3 special that could only be run by Venture Officers. It was opened up for general play in Season 4, but it wouldn't include any of the changes made for other Season 4 scenarios.
Ah, cool. I started in December of 2012, so that would not be info that I would have been aware of but it does explain why it seems to stick to the rules of S0-3.