Sphereworld: The Forest Kingdoms

Game Master DarkLightHitomi

On a strange world with no stars and month long days, there lies a vast empire still recovering from the civil war, and now new peoples arrive. In a small corner of the empire, people just try to make their way in life.



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I am hoping for some players to run a PF game with several houserules, some of which need testing. Mostly the magic will be modded as this setting has pervasive magic as most folks even farmers can do some magic. I'd like to see who would be interested in playing, though thoughts on the rule changes, which are open to discussion, will be appreciated. If you decide the rules aren't to your liking, can you tell me why please?

The non magic house rules.
*Armor as DR. The armor bonus is DR instead. Armor check penalty applies to AC (now Avoidance Class) which should work with,

*BCB. BAB is now Base Combat Bonus and applies to AC.

*Weapons deal extra damage for every 5 points by which an attack beats AC.

*Health. In addition to HP, there are Wound Points equal to con score. 0 HP results in unconciousness. Half WP or less makes a character disabled. 0 WP is dead. Crits go straight to WP. Cure spells can't heal WP damage. Restoration spells heal WP.

*Multiple attacks. Twf and bonus atks from high bab are combined. Any extra atks, regardless of source, take successive penalties. TWF allows an extra attack with offhand weapon at -7, the feat reduces this to -5. The penalty for each successive attack stacks so a fighter with a +6/+1 BCB and a second weapon can make three attacks at +6/+1/-6, or with the twf feat, +6/+1/-4.

*Start of Combat. A character counts as in combat, or "combat ready" if they know or suspect combat is about to occur. So the first round of combat is when a character first suspects or realizes combat is about to happen, even if the players and GM have not started using rounds yet. (Thus standing in total defense staring at an enemy waiting for the arena bell to ring doesn't leave one side flat footed, since both sides know combat will occur before it happens.)

*Proficiencies. Crossbows are martial, normal bows are simple. Classes that grant all simple weapons instead gain 3 profs plus int modifier. Classes the grant simple and martial gain 9 plus int. Simple weapons cost 1 prof, martial cost 2, exotic cost three. All classes get daggers profficiency for free. Weapons similar in style and use can be usd at a -1 instead of the normal -4. I.E. proficiency in short swords but not longswords lets you use a longsword at -1 because they are similar weapons.

Now, the magic changes. A flexible, vitalizing, spellpoint system.

*Spellpoints. All characters have a number of SP equal to their con score. Caster classes gain more in a similar fashion to HP, by rolling an SP die forveach level. D8 or full casters, d6 for medium casters, and d4 for low casters (yes before they get spells normally).

*SP recharges con modifier each hour. Sleep improves this gain by 50%.

*Casters roll a spellcraft check to cast a spell. The caster level of the spell is the result minus the DC. No spell has a minimum caster level. The save DC is 10+casting stat mod+caster level. The DC to cast a spell is 15 for 0 lvl spell, each level after adds it's lvl to the previous level's DC (so starting with 0 ;15/16/18/21/25/30/36/43/51/60) so ninth lvl spells have a DC of 60. The spellcraft check to cast a spell is keyed to your casting stat. There is no minimum ability score to cast a spell, nor minimum level, though a spell can't be mastered until your class wouod normally gain that spell level.

*All casters can cast spontaneously or prepared, even mixed. Each has benefits. Prepared casting is easier (-2 DC) but costs an extra spellpoint per prepared spell. The spellpoints for a prepared spell can't be recovered until the spell is expended. A prepared spell can be sacrificed to cast a spontaneous spell by adding a +2 to the spellcraft DC. Only spells known as mastered (via the spell mastery feat, or similar) can be cast spontaneously. Preparing a spell takes one minute per spell lvl.

*The SP cost for a spell is the spell lvl times 3, and one SP for 0 lvl spells.

* All casters can use any metamagic feat (that I'm familiar with). Metamagic feats add 2 to the DC of the spell and 1 to the SP cost, each per spell level increase, (so +2 spell levels would be a +4 DC and +2 SP) but does not otherwise affect anything relying on spell lvl.

*Counterspelling, roll your spellcraft as if casting a spell, but with a -5 penalty. If you beat the other caster's spellcraft check, the spell has been countered. Imp Counterspell reduces the penalty to -2. You must spend half as many SP as the cost of the spell to be countered. You can spend additional SP, each to add one to your check. (in essence, you could burn a bunch of power to counter a more skilled caster.)

*A caster can cast a spell by using their life force if they don't have enough SP. For each SP they are missing, they take 1d4 WP damage. They must also succeed on a concentration check based on this damage, or the spell fails.

*Save or die spells instead deal ability score damage. I.E. paralysis deals dexterity damage.

*Most spells no longer have caps based on caster lvl.

*Noncasters who are trained in Spellcraft can cast spells as rituals. Treat just like preparing a spell except the time to cast is 5 minutes per spell level and the spell takes effect at the end of the ritual. A spellbook is required during the ritual.

*Many magic items in this world simply hold a spell but require the user to put SP into the item to make it work. This takes a UMD check to do so, DC 10+SP spent. Can do partial charging, but it is a standard action to charge an item. The item goes off once it has the required SP to work.

*Spell like, per day, and other similar abilities use SP.

*A caster can learn or cast a spell from another spell list, but it is treated as one spell lvl higher.

*New skill, Use Manatronics. Manatronics are computer-like devices that function using magic. More robust than computers, but less flexible, as each "program" needs to be crafted "by hand." Thus no copying, nor simple typing.


Your critical system is broken.

Orc barbarian 1 has power attack, 18 base strength, and a falchion. Rage.

Assuming crits aren't multiplied with these houserules, 5 average damage, 9 str, 3 power attack - that's 17 damage.

Many tenth level characters have less than 17 constitution. This is not good for telling a story, as even high-level pcs can expect to die every three combats or so against low-level threats.


On crits,
You are right, crits are not multiplied. However, armor would reduce the damage taken. I also want it fairly lethal. I figure I should mention that I avoid having single baddies to fight and instead focus on multiple weaker enemies, so not much worry about a monster with insane damage per strike. The goal being to make 1-3 crits to kill. An unarmored commoner should die with one or two blows, and heros should avoid that not through some inherent super toughness but through skill or armor or protections.

Perhaps I just like a bit more lethality in my game, but if you think about it, a first level character would die from a similar amount of damage, so all I really did was add in some penalties for severe wounds, and to make it so simply having higher HP isn't an infallible protection from lucky strikes.

Alternatives,
*One would be to deal the weapon's crit multiplier as WP damage, but this isn't very lethal at all, and PCs would rarely ever get hurt enough to hit half WP. (which would hardly be lethal enough in my opinion.)
*Another option would be to put the weapon's damage die to WP but leave the rest of the damage to HP, or vice versa.
*The toughness feat could apply to WP instead of HP.
*Could add 1 WP per hit die.

I'm going for something hard to balance here. I don't want players dying often, but I do want them to be dying (or better yet, nearly dying) often enough that that death is a constant threat that looms over any combat.

I might also consider Alexandrian's death rules, which is to say that there are no rez spells, but healing magic can bring characters back from the dead if their HP (or in this case WP) are raised above the dead mark in less than 24 hours. Allows death more often, without death being a permanent thing, and also evens it out a bit so even low level characters can be saved.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

On crits,

You are right, crits are not multiplied. However, armor would reduce the damage taken. I also want it fairly lethal. I figure I should mention that I avoid having single baddies to fight and instead focus on multiple weaker enemies, so not much worry about a monster with insane damage per strike. The goal being to make 1-3 crits to kill. An unarmored commoner should die with one or two blows, and heros should avoid that not through some inherent super toughness but through skill or armor or protections.

Perhaps I just like a bit more lethality in my game, but if you think about it, a first level character would die from a similar amount of damage, so all I really did was add in some penalties for severe wounds, and to make it so simply having higher HP isn't an infallible protection from lucky strikes.

Alternatives,
*One would be to deal the weapon's crit multiplier as WP damage, but this isn't very lethal at all, and PCs would rarely ever get hurt enough to hit half WP. (which would hardly be lethal enough in my opinion.)
*Another option would be to put the weapon's damage die to WP but leave the rest of the damage to HP, or vice versa.
*The toughness feat could apply to WP instead of HP.
*Could add 1 WP per hit die.

I'm going for something hard to balance here. I don't want players dying often, but I do want them to be dying (or better yet, nearly dying) often enough that that death is a constant threat that looms over any combat.

I might also consider Alexandrian's death rules, which is to say that there are no rez spells, but healing magic can bring characters back from the dead if their HP (or in this case WP) are raised above the dead mark in less than 24 hours. Allows death more often, without death being a permanent thing, and also evens it out a bit so even low level characters can be saved.

The problem with no crit multiplier is no one will use any 20/ x3 weapon if crit multiplier never matters. Maybe the first dice goes to WP but the others to HP? I would also consider something like every hit does 1 WP damage, otherwise it only comes into effect when a/ several crits happen.


I kinda like every hit dealing 1 WP (or perhaps the weapon's crit multiplier to WP), but that comes with the problem of when only 1-2 damage is dealt overall and taking WP seems too much in those cases. Or apply the str, or dex for range, times the crit multiplier to WP on critical hits, the weapon damage still only dealing HP damage.

Definitely something to continue working on.

Liberty's Edge

This looks pretty interesting. Do you also have any house rules for using nonstandard dice?


TheAlicornSage wrote:

I kinda like every hit dealing 1 WP (or perhaps the weapon's crit multiplier to WP), but that comes with the problem of when only 1-2 damage is dealt overall and taking WP seems too much in those cases. Or apply the str, or dex for range, times the crit multiplier to WP on critical hits, the weapon damage still only dealing HP damage.

Definitely something to continue working on.

Then say every attack that deals a minimum amount of damage does 1WP. Say 10 minus strength bonus.

Also crossbows should be the simple proficiency. They are way easier to use than a normal bow.


Do note that low-level characters actually get more hit points, not less.

Anyway, the problem I'm seeing isn't a low-level problem, it begins really appearing around level 9, when most people have keen weapons or improved critical.

Crit-fishing is already really good in pathfinder. But this makes it insane.

A tenth level character can easily deal some 20 points of damage with a hit. But even glancing blows are probably enough to deal half the defenders constitution in damage, disabling them.

It worked for Star Wars, because in that system, critical ranges were really small, and hard to expand. Further, getting damage per attack past roughly 14 on average was difficult, even for high-level characters. In pathfinder, every martial and their grandmothers can run around with a threat range of 15-20 past level 8 or so. That's 30% of the attacks being critical threats. This is before even taking into accounts the massive amounts of damage being lobbed around.


Seth Dresari wrote:
This looks pretty interesting. Do you also have any house rules for using nonstandard dice?

???

Do you mean like rolling 3d6 in place of a d20? (I actually like bell curve myself, but e rollers are easier with fewer dice.)


The Dragon wrote:

Do note that low-level characters actually get more hit points, not less.

Anyway, the problem I'm seeing isn't a low-level problem, it begins really appearing around level 9, when most people have keen weapons or improved critical.

Crit-fishing is already really good in pathfinder. But this makes it insane.

A tenth level character can easily deal some 20 points of damage with a hit. But even glancing blows are probably enough to deal half the defenders constitution in damage, disabling them.

It worked for Star Wars, because in that system, critical ranges were really small, and hard to expand. Further, getting damage per attack past roughly 14 on average was difficult, even for high-level characters. In pathfinder, every martial and their grandmothers can run around with a threat range of 15-20 past level 8 or so. That's 30% of the attacks being critical threats. This is before even taking into accounts the massive amounts of damage being lobbed around.

High level play is broken for many reasons, but most campaigns never make it above levels 10-12, most play by post don't make it more than a couple of levels, so it isn't often an issue.


The Dragon wrote:

Do note that low-level characters actually get more hit points, not less.

Anyway, the problem I'm seeing isn't a low-level problem, it begins really appearing around level 9, when most people have keen weapons or improved critical.

Crit-fishing is already really good in pathfinder. But this makes it insane.

A tenth level character can easily deal some 20 points of damage with a hit. But even glancing blows are probably enough to deal half the defenders constitution in damage, disabling them.

It worked for Star Wars, because in that system, critical ranges were really small, and hard to expand. In pathfinder, every martial and their grandmothers can run around with a threat range of 15-20 past level 8 or so. That's 30% of the attacks being critical threats.

I see, though honestly, if we actually get that far, I'd be surprised (pleasantly so).

A simple solution to the crit fishing is to change any doubling of crit range into a +1 crit range.

Though honestly, here is my proposed alteration. All attacks deal the weapon's crit multiplier minus 1 per size category larger the target is to WP (so a small character attacking a medium character with a bow deals 2 WP {3 crit weapon, -1 size difference}). On a critical hit, a weapon's base damage goes to WP instead of HP, and 1 point of damage per die of magic damage applies to WP, in addition to the crit multiplier. (So a dagger that crits deals 1d4+2 WP and str plus extraneous to HP, while a crit with a 3cl shocking touch deals 3+2 WP and 3d6-3 HP.

Also, having used a bow and crossbow, I'm completely baffled by how anyone can think a crossbow simpler. A crossbow isn't hard by any means, but it isn't intuitive and takes a bit to figure out just how to get it to work, but a bow is just pick up and shoot. The advantage of a crossbow is it's piercing power and range. (DnD doesn't do it any justice, then again, it doesn't do much justice for combat at all. Piercing power isn't even a thing in DnD.)


Decent bowmen take a lot longer to train to effective levels and bow damage is largely based on draw strength, whereas crossbows can be wielded by someone of any strength for the same result.


If I wrote my own book on this, I'd probably rearrange the entire weapon tables, as they don't really make sense to me. The use in terms of what classes get what proficiencies seems to me like the weapons should be classified on intuitiveness, commonality, and simplicity of technique (requiring practice to perfect technique is different from how much training is needed to learn the techniques). The bow and crossbows seemed the worst offenders to me, though staves aren't too far behind.

I do think the mechanics have shifted in regard to weapon class though since classification now affects the cost of becoming proficient. Bows require more practice, crossbows more training.

The damage and draw strength I agree with, but I wouldn't use that to pick the class of the weapon. Besides, crossbows require much higher strength just to use, I struggled just to get the string far enough back for someone else to actually set the catch, can't imagine trying to do that in combat.

In any case, bows are far more common in the setting to be played, used by hunters and such, while crossbows are only used by soldiers/guards.

It isn't that big of a deal to me though.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

If I wrote my own book on this, I'd probably rearrange the entire weapon tables, as they don't really make sense to me. The use in terms of what classes get what proficiencies seems to me like the weapons should be classified on intuitiveness, commonality, and simplicity of technique (requiring practice to perfect technique is different from how much training is needed to learn the techniques). The bow and crossbows seemed the worst offenders to me, though staves aren't too far behind.

I do think the mechanics have shifted in regard to weapon class though since classification now affects the cost of becoming proficient. Bows require more practice, crossbows more training.

The damage and draw strength I agree with, but I wouldn't use that to pick the class of the weapon. Besides, crossbows require much higher strength just to use, I struggled just to get the string far enough back for someone else to actually set the catch, can't imagine trying to do that in combat.

In any case, bows are far more common in the setting to be played, used by hunters and such, while crossbows are only used by soldiers/guards.

It isn't that big of a deal to me though.

It really doesn't matter to me one way or another.

On a different note are you looking at any class restrictions?

And I assume a homebrew setting?


No gunslingers. Though the class could probably work with wands of spells that make ray attacks. I'll draft something if someone wants to go that route.

I almost forgot, none of the advanced class guide classes. I haven't looked them over yet (forgot about it truthfully).

The setting is a custom setting, no stars in the sky, the sun doesn't move, it just fades and then brightens over about a month. Though, stories tell of all peoples coming from other worlds with stars.

The Empire is far reaching, though has suffered a bit from a civil war resulting in a vast wasteland in the middle of the Empire. The Forest Kingdoms and Shattered Hills, the eastern and western parts of the empire are still intact.

The elves and gnomes were altered magically when humans tried to settle the Bleakwood. Dwarves were the first race known to be here and seem distantly related to humans but the exact connection is unknown. Darkmen are elves, men, and dwarves who settled underground under the Bleakwood, they are the "drow," "duerger," and a similar version of humans.

The Great Sea is settled by Grettles, sentient octopi basically.

The eastern parts of the empire holds the Zyphers and Reaplings, a tiger like race and artificial life, respectively.

The Fealin are some demented wizard's attempt at chimera, mixing Zypher and Elf. The result is a tiny sized race of anthromorphs who strangely can spin silk. They were used as minions by said wizard till they killed him and escaped.

There is a measure of technology based on mana. Much of that technology is lost, but not all. However, there are no mass production techniques for them, so they are expensive. However, the wasteland was the heart of the empire before it's destruction, so many brave the wastes in search of looting such tech. Few return. The wastes are basically like a fantasy version of Fallout without the brotherhood or enclave, fewer raiders, and more monsters, radiation, and taint (ala Fallout Equestria).

The Forest Kingdoms were mostly untouched by the civil war and are more classical, with nobility, royalty, and petty squabbles. The Empire is present here, but not very strongly.

The Shattered Hills are sparsely populated and is more frontier like.

The entire Empire is about 9000 miles across, with the explored world only about twice that.

There are airships, but very rare. Only three don't belong to the Imperial Air Force.

Some rocks float, and even floating islands can be found. None have settlements, but sometimes a hermit may live on one, or are sometimes used as a watchtower or airship dock. They are notoriously unstable and prone to breaking apart.


Where do you plan on starting the campaign? I am beginning to think about my character. Probably use the ninja class for some kind of magical scout/ assassin.


The campaign will start on the northern side of the forest kingdoms area, near the border to the wastes. A local noble lady needs some people to invesigate a matter and the Imperial Guards lack the manpower. So a character needs to have some reason to help her and not be wanted by the Imperials.

The starting level will be 4. Races will include only those mentioned above (minus grettles which are aquatic only) plus Kobalds (which are not generally known yet, therefore their existance is not common knowledge). The specifics can wait till later, only character concepts are needed right now. I will run as many as want to play, though in groups no larger than 6.


Given some feedback, I'll run with these alerations to the opening rules,

Crits and WP,
Weapons deal their crit modifier to WP on a normal hit. On a critical hit, the base weapon damage will also subtract from WP (instead of from HP). A crit with a spell will deal 1 WP damage per damage die.

Proficiencies, bows and crossbows will be simple weapons.

Death, there are no spells for bringing folks back from the dead, however, if the lost WP can be restored to at least 1 WP within 24 hours, the character will be revived.

Anyone willing to play chime in with a character concept (or question). I'll run whoever, even solo. (caveat, disruptive players will be warned then kicked, not that I expect problems, but I'll deal with them if come).


As I said, I am thinking Human Ninja as some kind of scout/ assassin. He will try to use some spells for buffing pre-combat.


Yep. I'll open the discussion thread where we can do character creation.


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