… No? Poison Use takes a talent. Full immunity to one injury poison is a trait, and it comes with a save bonus vs. the most common poison category. The talent to increase DC only applies to one type of poison, so you can get an efficient poisoning setup for a talent and a trait.
That's a pretty good trait though, that's more powerful than most feats.
Although I feel like I'm going crazy, I swear there's a "you're immune to a specific type of poison" trait or something that already exists, although it was really limited to something like only poisons from plants that you would have eaten or from monster poisons or something.
… No? Poison Use takes a talent. Full immunity to one injury poison is a trait, and it comes with a save bonus vs. the most common poison category. The talent to increase DC only applies to one type of poison, so you can get an efficient poisoning setup for a talent and a trait.That's a pretty good trait though, that's more powerful than most feats.
Although I feel like I'm going crazy, I swear there's a "you're immune to a specific type of poison" trait or something that already exists, although it was really limited to something like only poisons from plants that you would have eaten or from monster poisons or something.
Eh… given how unlikely it is to run into one specific poison during a game, I'd consider it mostly "Poison Use for a single poison, with an extra bonus", which is the sort of half-feat that I'd expect from a trait.
Oh, and I forgot to mention how nice it is to have a free minor version of Stoneskin as a third-level spell.
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QuidEst, I'm so pleased you enjoyed hydrofluoric acid. I've sat through a few HF safety trainings, so it was a natural choice for a really nasty poison.
Do tinctures require their own item creation feat?
So what does the potable spells do?
Do tinctures require their own item creation feat?
So what does the potable spells do?
No. They’re alchemical items that provide a wide range of decent duration minor alchemical bonuses, but come with drawbacks. Generally fall in the low hundreds of gp cost range.
Somebody already posted a description of the potable spells. They are regular spells that qualify to be made into potions. My favorite is a minor Stoneskin with no expensive material component.
Could we get a brief synopsis of what the Grippli feats do? Thanks!
I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.
I'm also curious about the Alchemist stuff, though the Toxin Codexer sounds *amazing*
Sounds amazing. I'll have to put this on my January list of things to buy.
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Could we get a brief synopsis of what the Grippli feats do? Thanks!
Toxic Secretions: Extra uses of Toxic Skin alternate racial trait.
Poison Resin: Use Toxic Skin to make a temporary weapon.
Noxious Touch: Apply Toxic Skin effect to unarmed strike or natural weapon.
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I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.
Accurate Poisoner: Forego sneak attack damage to increase duration of poison.
Lingering Poison: Delay onset time of poison upon delivery.
Signature Poison: Increase save DC of any single poison type.
Suppress Poison: After failing save against poison with immediate onset time, make 2nd save to avoid effects of the poison for part of its duration.
Toxic Regurgitation: Harmless store a dose of poison in your body to spit at a foe later.
I'm also curious about the Alchemist stuff, though the Toxin Codexer sounds *amazing*
This book has a lot for Alchemists. I will just give you the discoveries for now.
Designer Poison: Increase save DC of poison against a single creature type at cost of making it less effective against all other creature types.
Lingering Poison: Increase maximum duration of poison that you make.
Lasting Tinctures: Increase maximum duration of tincture that you make.
I’ll mention that any creature type stuff uses the Ranger setup, so humanoid and outsider use subcategories.
For a Rogue poisoner build, I don’t think a generalist works too well, but they make a good specialist without dedicating your entire build to it. Trait for drow poison immunity, talent to raise the DC by 2. Possibly grab the talent to produce a free dose daily for every five doses you carry.
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To fill in an accidental gap in the above posting: The Shroud of Venom is a shoulders slot item.
Hm,what does undeath sense do?
Someone else mentioned it upthread, but it's a potion-able version of Detect Undead I believe.
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Hm,what does undeath sense do?Someone else mentioned it upthread, but it's a potion-able version of Detect Undead I believe.
Yep. Phase Step and Clay Skin, Glimpse the Hidden...really like these! For a player who generally avoids depending on poison, there is a lot in here to like! Alchemical items and potions my Investigator (Lamplighter--which loses Poison abilities) can really use. Tinctures? Really cool.
I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.** spoiler omitted **The last one sounds like it's basically
** spoiler omitted **
Actually... I think you can do that now. Someone mentioned that there's a Rogue talent that makes your blood poisonous, and there's that feat from Horror Adventures that lets you squirt blood from your eyes.
I figure I might as well ask since it's bound to come up: does the spell Phase Step count as Dimendion Door for any kind of prerequisite?
Also, why are there two pages dedicated to listing potions and their costs?
Ezren and Damiel are having a cook off!
Also, more nagaji and grippli, as well as a bloodline sounds cool (growing a scorpion tail involved?)!
It would seem not, though personally, I will be adding in the character being able to grow a fleshwarped scorpion tail as a normal action. Or just permanently give them the tail
It would seem not, though personally, I will be adding in the character being able to grow a fleshwarped scorpion tail as a normal action. Or just permanently give them the tailEzren and Damiel are having a cook off!
Also, more nagaji and grippli, as well as a bloodline sounds cool (growing a scorpion tail involved?)!
I thought it mentioned growing an etheric tail to sting things with at higher level ?.....but I was just skimming...
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The item Reaper's Wisdom looks to have some sort of error caused by editing the item's effects. The item description "increases the virulence of all poisons used by the wearer", but despite this the item just gives a once per day ability and nothing else.
Not only this the once per day ability is just bypassing delay poison. This ability is pathetically weak for its 21k price tag. Did the item previously bypass delay poison on every hit?
So finally digested the book more fully. The book's called Potions and Poisons, but it really should have been called Drugs and Drinks because those are the best parts of the book by far. The new elixirs are all cool and useful (especially the Spirit Rush one which is a good reason your returning boss fight can escape certain death), the tinctures are really good for the most part (and remind me a lot of those alchemical burn/inspiration items from Ultimate Intrigue) and those new drugs actually look like something that people would use for some reason, because the old ones were honestly pretty lame. Like remember that weird Investigator archetype that got immunity to drugs? I can totally see using that now in conjunction with these new things.
The new poisons are also fun, since they're focused more on weird side-effects than ability score damage, but poisons in general also seem to be lacking a bit of boosting support in this book. Yes yes there's Toxin Codexer and the Designer Poison stuff, but that's really not a big boost to their effectiveness, not to mention they're class locked (and in the case of the Codexer the poisons are level-locked too). It makes the Codexer function more similarly to an Eldritch Poisoner or Toxicant, except it gives up spell slots to do so. Anathema and Greater Anathema though, that's the real gem in the book for poisoning creatures. I don't know if it makes up for the lack of support elsewhere, but my god I'm salivating over those talents.
Potions also lack support in the book. There's four feats, a few potable versions of spells, and one kind of weird Alchemist archetype? Definitely could have used a bit more pizzazz, especially since there's the two pages of space spent on potions that already exist?
Feats like Powerful Poisoning and Designer Poison will help a fair measure though - I think I can maybe get a 6th level extract to around ~30ish DC with enough finagling, but that seems like the upward limit.
I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).
Plus, of course, you can always apply debuffs. Grab a Spell-Storing Weapon and get your friendly wizard to cast Pernicious Poison into it. Bam, guaranteed -4 to the target's saves.
Anyway. I'm not sure this is so radically different than saying 'the wizard's DCs max out at a certain level'. A Toxin Codexer, or any poisoner really, is a save-based character in the same way an enchanter bard is.
Anyone have a thought on Vaporous Potion and action economy?
If i drop a vaporous potion on the ground, does it break?
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I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).
Yes, but their base DC generally ends up being not much better than their equivalent, purchasable forms - You're just saving GP (which of course, is nice.)
I knew I was forgetting a couple of things. So yeah, about 30ish. Pretty good, but I still think it's not the 'suddenly poisoners are playable by the grace of this alone' that some reviews argued.
Still an extremely fun archetype, also.
I do consider it to be “suddenly poisons are playable by the grace of this alone”. Those DCs are sufficient for me when I’m playing Occultist, and the poisons are now free.
Made a fun Witch build using the new hexes in here. Starting at level five, you can poison somebody within thirty feet as a swift action by revealing a secret and turn invisible as a move action. That leaves your standard free for high-fiving Norgorber or whatever.
I do consider it to be “suddenly poisons are playable by the grace of this alone”. Those DCs are sufficient for me when I’m playing Occultist, and the poisons are now free.
I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).
Yes, but their base DC generally ends up being not much better than their equivalent, purchasable forms - You're just saving GP (which of course, is nice.)
I knew I was forgetting a couple of things. So yeah, about 30ish. Pretty good, but I still think it's not the 'suddenly poisoners are playable by the grace of this alone' that some reviews argued.
Still an extremely fun archetype, also.
Not to derail too much, but what is the Occultist trick that raises Poison DCs?
There isn’t one. I meant that the Investigator’s poison archetype gives DCs comparable to the spell DCs of any 6/9 class (other than Mesmerist). Occultist is just the one I happen to use most. If those DCs were good enough for me, I’d consider them enough to use free poisons (especially ingestion ones).
There isn’t one. I meant that the Investigator’s poison archetype gives DCs comparable to the spell DCs of any 6/9 class (other than Mesmerist). Occultist is just the one I happen to use most. If those DCs were good enough for me, I’d consider them enough to use free poisons (especially ingestion ones).
I kind of realized that after posting but just wanted to verify.
Unrelated, but since you mentioned ingestion poisons, I also really appreciate the ability to change up poison types more in this book. That one Alchemist discovery was a real game-changer, and having it spread to other classes and magic items adds a lot of potential.
Anyone have a thought on Vaporous Potion and action economy?
If i drop a vaporous potion on the ground, does it break?
No one?
Question on Phase Step. I know it was included in this book because it is a potable version of Dimension Door, but it is also castable as a spell.
If brewed into a potion it is pretty clear how it works: Subject spends a standard action to drink the potion, teleports a short distance, and then its turn ends (unless it has the Dimensional Agility feat) as per the spell D-Door.
But if cast as a spell, you can target another willing subject touched. What happens to that subject's actions? It is transferred to the new location on your turn, not its turn. Does it lose the entirety of its next action? Only lose the remainder of its current action (for example, if it was readying or delaying)? Or suffer no penalty and just act normally on its each initiative?
Dimension Door says after using it you can't take any actions until your next turn. "You" means the caster when talking about a spell, though it becomes the subject when dealing with a potion. So it sounds like if you cast it as a spell, you can't then take additional actions that round, but the subject who is teleported (assuming you didn't target yourself) is not impaired.
Question also on Vaporous Potions. Clearly, the intent is that you can use potions as improvised single-target (targets one square) ranged "attacks" to provide the benefits of the potion to a party member. But what about hitting my own square?
Drinking a potion in combat is normally a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The text says the vial is considered an improvised weapon, so if I throw it at my own square I still provoke attacks of opportunity (for making a ranged attack in a threatened area, if I don't have the proper feat), which means I might as well just drink it. But what about simply dropping it? Dropping a held item is a free action that does not provoke, but would there be a chance it fails to break? If it doesn't break, can't I just stomp on the following round since it will then be an unattended object?
If dropping it without provoking works, then will brew every potion this way and drop them like ninja bombs at my own feet every combat. People will be able to tell where I have been by the caltrop-like spread of broken glass. Since applying this Versatile Brewing feat does not increase the level or cost of the potion, there really is no downside to applying it to every potion and keeping my options open.
But if cast as a spell, you can target another willing subject touched. What happens to that subject's actions? It is transferred to the new location on your turn, not its turn. Does it lose the entirety of its next action? Only lose the remainder of its current action (for example, if it was readying or delaying)? Or suffer no penalty and just act normally on its each initiative?
There's an FAQ about this exact question. Dimension Door only restricts the caster, not the other creatures that get brought along with the caster. So Phase Step, by virtue of being Dimension Door-lite also only affects the caster with the end-of-turn clause.
Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?
So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?
Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?
So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?
The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.
The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?
So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?
So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?
Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.
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The other nice thing about anathemas is that they only work vs. creatures of the selected type. This is a benefit even if you are not trying to bypass racial poison immunity or a Periapt of Proof Against Poison. If you have prepared an inhaled dust poison as an anathema for drow, you can freely disperse it without worrying about harming a party member (unless you have one in your party). If you have converted an ingested poison, you can mix it in food, serve it at the table, and even go ahead and eat that food in front of your target to show it is harmless.
Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?
So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question, but the discovery Celestial Poison lets one poison both evil outsiders and undead (from Champions of Purity). It does bypass poison immunity for those categories of monster.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question, but the discovery Celestial Poison lets one poison both evil outsiders and undead (from Champions of Purity). It does bypass poison immunity for those categories of monster.Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?
So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?
Yeah, which just leaves Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Aeons, Behemoths, Elementals, Inevitables, and Psychopomps.
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So I just received and opened up mine, and I just wish to say I like the cover! Definitely one of the better ones (I'd give anything for Paizo to start doing something like those those masterful photographed-faux-tomes that graced the 3.0 hardbacks, but that's neither here nor there).
Damiel looks beautiful - although there is the problem of his eyes being wrong. He's an ELF! I totally dig the way Pathfinder does Elven eyes, so friggin' stick with it!
Then there's Ezren back there...what's the deal with that guy? Did he take the Elongated Cranium (Ovoid Compression) feat or something??? And why is it Ezren back there anyways, and not the Iconic Investigator guy (Quinn, is it?), since he's the other "alchemical mage"? Heck, why not even the Iconic Ninja (Reiko?), since it's "Potions & Poisons"?
One other thing: I really appreciated the interior of the cover (alchemical gear from different regions) - but why not one from Ustalav??? They've got Lepidstadt U, you know!
