Pathfinder Player Companion: Potions & Poisons (PFRPG)

****½ (based on 7 ratings)
Pathfinder Player Companion: Potions & Poisons (PFRPG)

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Good for What Ails You!

Whether they're used to bolster heroes' abilities or take enemies out of the game, potions and poisons are key parts of many adventurers' arsenals. Far more options than simple healing draughts or strength-sapping toxins are available to savvy heroes, though, especially those ingenious enough to craft their own concoctions. Pathfinder Player Companion: Potions & Poisons offers a sea of new potions, elixirs, and stranger alchemical wonders for the discerning adventurer, plus heinous designer poisons. Class and character options for those who brew or regularly imbibe consumables round out these offerings.

Inside this book you'll find:

  • Feats and archetypes for races with an affinity for poisons, including gripplis, nagaji, and vishkanyas, plus the scorpion sorcerer bloodline for those with a toxic heritage.
  • Archetypes for a variety of classes known for brewing or poisoning, including alchemists, rogues, and witches.
  • Spells and feats specialized for potion brewing, plus drugs, elixirs, gear, poisons, and tinctures—alchemical remedies that produce potent effects but impair the user.

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and the Pathfinder campaign setting, but it can be easily incorporated into any fantasy world.

978-1-64078-000-2

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Player Companion Subscription.

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****½ (based on 7 ratings)

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Should be Drugs and Drinks

****( )

I'm going to say right now, this book has no major game-changers for potions or poisons.

The book is titled Potions and Poisons, but unfortunately this book has very little that really changes the game for those two types of items. Potions are by far the least explored part of this book, consisting of four feats total (of which only one will probably see any use in a game), a few pretty great potable versions of spells, a fairly lackluster Alchemist archetype, and a two-page spread listing spells that already exist and can be made into potions. Instead of anything useful, there's just two pages of effectively pointless filler, and not even particularly useful filler since most people work backwards when selecting potions (choose an effect then find the appropriate spell) instead of choosing from spells on a list, a list which isn't complete and even if it was would cease to be complete the moment a new 0-3rd level spell is released.

Poisons get a somewhat better showing, though still lacking. All the poison-using feats are racial feats, as are half of the poison-using archetypes. It would be less of an issue if the races weren't uncommon races; they're tied to the Vishkanya, Nagaji, and Grippli, meaning they'll see much less use than if they were for the more common races. There's also the Toxin Codexer Investigator, which at first seems to be the big game-changer in poison use, allowing the Investigator to boost the power of poisons to a DC equal to their spell DCs. Unfortunately that archetype comes with two issues: first, the DC boosts are class-locked, so a Toxin Codexer and ONLY a Toxin Codexer gets the bonuses. It functions more similarly to the Alchemist's Toxicant or Eldritch Poisoner archetypes, except that the Toxin Codexer also gives up spell slots to function. The other issue is that the poisons also become level-locked. Arsenic is a 1st level poison for example, while Hemlock is 5th. The poisons not listed are up to GM approval, which means that some poisons (such as Tongue Twist, presented in this book) may simply be banned for use with the archetype if the GM feels that it's too useful, or may be set at such a high level that by the time it comes into use every monster is immune to ability score damage or flat immune to poisons. And it's unfortunate, because it means all future poison boosters might take that same form, or this might supplant any need to make real useful feats or abilities since everyone can now say "Want to poison things? Toxin Codexer is obviously the way to do it."

The other sections of the book though are pretty solid. The talents and abilities listed for various classes make up for the overall weak showing in archetypes, and the Scorpion Bloodline gives a nice poison-based suite of abilities (though it functions based on a special scaling DC poison granted by the bloodline). The new elixirs are fantastic and make them into something more useful than just "drinkable Wondrous Items", like the Spirit Rush elixir which gives your villain a chance to always escape certain death, and even additional fleshcrafting elixirs. The new poisons are always fun to look at, since unlike the older poisons they focus more on strange and unique effects instead of ability score damage. The additional items are also pretty good, though most of the poisoner gear seems to be focused more on adding ways to poison a target instead of boosting the poison's power, and the anti-poisoner's gear is as would be expected, a number of items that grant bonuses to Fortitude saves and generally protect the wearer from being poisoned.

However, the real stars of the book are the Tinctures and Drugs. Tinctures are a collection of weird alchemical not-potions that grant boons at some cost (in a way similar to the alchemical items from Ultimate Intrigue), but their effects are shockingly useful despite their cost and lack of real magic. Similarly the drugs are fantastic in this book, becoming items that players could see real use in and that actually give a person a reason to take them at risk of addiction. An old drug gives a minor ability bonus at the cost of ability damage and a risk of addiction. These give major really interesting bonuses at the same cost, which makes them infinitely more appealing.

tl;dr Poisons are given not much support and there are no game-changers, potions are given even less. Everything else in the book is definitely worth it though.


A Little More Potions and Little Less Poisons

***( )( )

Not a bad book but not great. I really enjoyed the new options for the 3 races, sorcerer bloodline, elixirs, tinctures and a few other things. Really would have liked more stuff for potions, elixirs, tinctures, etc. and less poison. Finally got a periapt of proof against paralysis but it sucks, it doesn't grant full immunity, and for 8000GP at that!


Genuinely Game-Changing -- In a Good Way

*****

Start with the Toxin Codexer, which pretty much single-handedly makes a poison-focused character actually viable. You can prepare poisons in your extract slots for free, their DCs scale, and you can pick up Discoveries that allow you to bypass species poison resistance (you do need to do know what you're facing ahead of time, so this is an investigator encouraged to investigate). That's the big draw of the book, but not the only stuff.

The Vishkanya, Grippli, and Nagaji stuff is all good, most notably the Dispelling Blood feat and Nagaji Spit Venom line. The Vishkanya Bard and Nagaji Fighters are also pretty interesting, and worthy of characters.

The new potion-friendly spells are useful and interesting. Toxic Blood is going to be a BBEG staple, and Glimpse the Hidden is a seriously useful spell.

The witch hexes are impressive, most importantly in their ability to give witches more Fort targeting effects.

As with any Companion, there's plenty of dross in here along with the gold (the magic items come to mind), but the gold is so shiny and excellent this a five-star book. One of the best recent Companions, up there with the First World booklet and Blood of the Coven.


A solid supplement for the size

*****

There is a lot of good stuff packed in here. The Vaporous Potion feat especially, which allows brewing potions that can be delivered as a splash weapon.

The Witch Hexes are also especially useful, and I may make use of them on my next character.


Enhance Brew Potion, add Investigator(Toxin Codexer)

*****

Details:
pages:36 pages with content:30
traits: regional:10
racial feats:11 (grippli 3, nagaji 4, vishkanya 4)
racial archtypes:5 (grippli 2, nagaji 1, vishkanya 2)
class archtypes:7 (alchemist 2, witch 1, rogue 2{rogue talents 5, slayer talents 2}, investigator 2{inventigator talents 3})
spells:8 (mostly arcane)
feats:4(enhancements to Brew Potion)
poisons:10
drugs:12
items(alchemical:1 & tinctures{t}:16, equip:6)
magic items:(wpn:1, wondrous:16)
potions(elixirs:13)

overall it is a lot of new content with only 1 page giving a table of standard potions and oils(CR,APG,ACG,OA,UC,UI,UM).
This is your supplement for enhancing Brew Potion, introducing a poisoner (that's not an assassin per se), or adding to grippli, nagaji, or vishkanya racial abilities.

The material looks balanced on the whole and shouldn't upset most games. My only caution is that drugs with high addiction DCs should be reviewed before using in a campaign.

Standouts would be;

Magic Items: Aegis of Recovery, Greater $3750 (neck), Eye of Crystallized Venom $2250 (neck).

Alchemical: Venombane Lozenges $35, Dodger's Draught{t} $300, Mage's Assistant{t} $150.
The tinctures{t} are creative, expensive in general, excellent duration (1 hour or better) and they have drawbacks. A regular magical potion/scroll/wand might suffice instead but NPCs need stuff!

Poisons: decent effects & DCs at reasonable prices, only 2 are deadly. Insecticide as written doesn't kill vermin.

Drugs: interesting but some are actually very cost effective slow acting poisons with high DCs. Craft these for long term situations.

Art: pg 26 there's something special in that satchel!

I would have liked to seen more poisons in the work (say 20 total rather than 10), particularly under 100gp.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
… No? Poison Use takes a talent. Full immunity to one injury poison is a trait, and it comes with a save bonus vs. the most common poison category. The talent to increase DC only applies to one type of poison, so you can get an efficient poisoning setup for a talent and a trait.

That's a pretty good trait though, that's more powerful than most feats.

Although I feel like I'm going crazy, I swear there's a "you're immune to a specific type of poison" trait or something that already exists, although it was really limited to something like only poisons from plants that you would have eaten or from monster poisons or something.


Alchemaic wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
… No? Poison Use takes a talent. Full immunity to one injury poison is a trait, and it comes with a save bonus vs. the most common poison category. The talent to increase DC only applies to one type of poison, so you can get an efficient poisoning setup for a talent and a trait.

That's a pretty good trait though, that's more powerful than most feats.

Although I feel like I'm going crazy, I swear there's a "you're immune to a specific type of poison" trait or something that already exists, although it was really limited to something like only poisons from plants that you would have eaten or from monster poisons or something.

Eh… given how unlikely it is to run into one specific poison during a game, I'd consider it mostly "Poison Use for a single poison, with an extra bonus", which is the sort of half-feat that I'd expect from a trait.

Oh, and I forgot to mention how nice it is to have a free minor version of Stoneskin as a third-level spell.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

QuidEst, I'm so pleased you enjoyed hydrofluoric acid. I've sat through a few HF safety trainings, so it was a natural choice for a really nasty poison.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do tinctures require their own item creation feat?

So what does the potable spells do?


Dragon78 wrote:

Do tinctures require their own item creation feat?

So what does the potable spells do?

No. They’re alchemical items that provide a wide range of decent duration minor alchemical bonuses, but come with drawbacks. Generally fall in the low hundreds of gp cost range.

Somebody already posted a description of the potable spells. They are regular spells that qualify to be made into potions. My favorite is a minor Stoneskin with no expensive material component.


Could we get a brief synopsis of what the Grippli feats do? Thanks!


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.


I'm also curious about the Alchemist stuff, though the Toxin Codexer sounds *amazing*


Sounds amazing. I'll have to put this on my January list of things to buy.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
knightnday wrote:
Could we get a brief synopsis of what the Grippli feats do? Thanks!

Grippli feats:

Toxic Secretions: Extra uses of Toxic Skin alternate racial trait.

Poison Resin: Use Toxic Skin to make a temporary weapon.

Noxious Touch: Apply Toxic Skin effect to unarmed strike or natural weapon.


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Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Cellion wrote:
I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.

There are actually five of them:

Accurate Poisoner: Forego sneak attack damage to increase duration of poison.

Lingering Poison: Delay onset time of poison upon delivery.

Signature Poison: Increase save DC of any single poison type.

Suppress Poison: After failing save against poison with immediate onset time, make 2nd save to avoid effects of the poison for part of its duration.

Toxic Regurgitation: Harmless store a dose of poison in your body to spit at a foe later.


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
NeoTiamat wrote:
I'm also curious about the Alchemist stuff, though the Toxin Codexer sounds *amazing*

This book has a lot for Alchemists. I will just give you the discoveries for now.

Discoveries:

Designer Poison: Increase save DC of poison against a single creature type at cost of making it less effective against all other creature types.

Lingering Poison: Increase maximum duration of poison that you make.

Lasting Tinctures: Increase maximum duration of tincture that you make.


I’ll mention that any creature type stuff uses the Ranger setup, so humanoid and outsider use subcategories.

For a Rogue poisoner build, I don’t think a generalist works too well, but they make a good specialist without dedicating your entire build to it. Trait for drow poison immunity, talent to raise the DC by 2. Possibly grab the talent to produce a free dose daily for every five doses you carry.


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Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Potions & Poisons Rules Elements:
Alchemist Discoveries: designer poison, enduring toxin, lasting tinctures

Archetypes: concocter (alchemist), disciple of the forked tongue (vishkanya, bard), fermenter (alchemist), mantella (grippli, druid), needler (rogue), reckless epicurean (investigator), rotdrinker (rogue), swamp poisoner (grippli, rogue), toxin codexer (investigator), venom siphoner (witch), venomblade (nagaji, fighter)

Feats: Delayed Potion, Dispelling Blood (vishkanya), Ghostbane Ichor (vishkanya), Healing Potion, Hemorrhaging Venom (nagaji, Combat), Lengthy Potion, Noxious Touch (grippli), Poison Resin (grippli), Toxic Secretions (grippli), Toxic Spray (nagaji, Combat), Unraveling Blood (vishkanya), Vaporous Potion, Virulent Venom (nagaji, Combat), Warding Blood (vishkanya)

Hexes: gift of consumption, greater gift of consumption, poison touch

Major Hexes: restless slumber, withering

Investigator Talents: anathema, greater anathema, lingering venom

Rogue Talents: accurate poisoner, lingering poison, signature poison, suppress poison, toxic regurgitation

Slayer Talents: focused poison, redirect poison

Sorcerer Bloodline: scorpion

Spells: antitoxin touch (alchemist 1, druid 1, ranger 1, shaman 1, witch 1), clay skin (alchemist 3, bloodrager 3, inquisitor 3, magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3), glimpse the hidden (alchemist 3, inquisitor 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3, witch 3), identifier's eye (alchemist 2, bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2, witch 2), phase step (alchemist 3, bard 3, magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3, witch 3), poisonous cloud (bloodrager 4, magus 4, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 4, witch 4), toxic blood (alchemist 3, bloodrager 3, cleric 3, druid 3, investigator 3, magus 3, ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, summoner 3, witch 3), undeath sense (alchemist 2, cleric 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 2)

-----

Drugs: esoterum (600 gp), goassamer veil (20 gp), hush (200 gp), inspiration dust (75 gp), Keleshite coffee (5 gp), magesight (15 gp), oblivion (100 gp), old-mage (1,500 gp), ruk tar (55 gp), serpent's kiss (50 gp), sting's savor (45 gp), vigilance (15 gp)

Equipment: harvester's kit (65 gp), poisoned locket (75 gp), poisoned quill (30 gp), poisoner's goblet (100 gp), stalker's oil (50 gp), toxic censer (115 gp), venombane lozenges (35 gp)

Fleshcrafts*: adhesive slime (500 gp), ring of eyes (1,400 gp), webbed appendages (200 gp)

*These fleshcrafts are available only in elixir form and cannot be created as a graft.

Poisons: blackfingers's salt (300 gp), diplopic serum (250 gp), gelidburn oil (75 gp), hydrofluoric acid (2,500 gp), insecticide (175 gp), juvebloom (750 gp), nerveblast (1,500 gp), ossivane (350 gp), pupil's friend (30 gp), tongue twist (600 gp)

Ring: band of efficacious death (9,250 gp)

Tinctures: alluring philter (150 gp), artistic ale (300 gp), brawler's brew (150 gp), dodger's draught (300 gp), explorer's emulsion (150 gp), leaper's libation (200 gp), liquid courage (175 gp), mage's assistant (150 gp), mirage mixture (300 gp), nimble nectar (200 gp), prowler's palliative (300 gp), sorcerer's spirits (300 gp), starlight juice (300 gp), stout solution (100 gp), thinker's tipple (300 gp), titan's tonic (200 gp)

Traits: Alchemical Fence (Regional - Katapesh), Blood Potion Brewer (Regional - Belkzen), Liquid Healing (Regional - Rahadoum), Necrotoxin (Regional - Geb), Palm Potion (Regional - Razmiran), Poison Connoisseur (Regional - Taldor), Poisoned Blade Resistance (Regional - River Kingdoms), Resourceful Alchemy (Regional - Thuvia), Technological Brewmaster (Regional - Numeria), Weed Resistance (Regional - Kyonin)

Wondrous Items: aegis of recovery, greater (neck, 3,750 gp), alchemist's aspergillum (none, 2,805 gp), apron of the careful chemist (chest, 5,200 gp), blight kickers (feet, 13,500 gp), death's will (hands, 3,600 gp), elixir of agility (none, 450 gp), elixir of countless eyes (none, 1,200 gp), elixir of the infernal familiar (none, 1,400 gp), elixir of vicious magic (none, 1,750 gp), eye of crystallized venom (neck, 2,250 gp), fiery maw elixir (none, 800 gp), forbearer's grace (neck, 5,400 gp), gloves of restrained death (hands, 9,250 gp), harvester's bindings (wrists, 8,500 gp), headband of the tainted ouroboros (headband, 4,500 gp), healer's aid (none, 900 gp), miasmatic mask (head, 23,000 gp), periapt of proof against paralysis (neck, 8,000 gp), reaper's wisdom (shoulders, 21,600 gp), shroud of venom (shoulders, 4,500 gp), silversheen elixir (none, 900 gp), spirit rush (none, 2,400 gp), swarmform elixir (none, 3,300 gp), vest of resonating fortitude (chest, 7,000 gp), wraith's sight elixir (none, 1,500 gp)

(Edited; Thanks to David knott 242.)


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Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

To fill in an accidental gap in the above posting: The Shroud of Venom is a shoulders slot item.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hm,what does undeath sense do?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeciusNero wrote:
Hm,what does undeath sense do?

Someone else mentioned it upthread, but it's a potion-able version of Detect Undead I believe.


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Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alchemaic wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:
Hm,what does undeath sense do?
Someone else mentioned it upthread, but it's a potion-able version of Detect Undead I believe.

Yep. Phase Step and Clay Skin, Glimpse the Hidden...really like these! For a player who generally avoids depending on poison, there is a lot in here to like! Alchemical items and potions my Investigator (Lamplighter--which loses Poison abilities) can really use. Tinctures? Really cool.


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David knott 242 wrote:
Cellion wrote:
I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.
** spoiler omitted **

The last one sounds like it's basically

Spoiler:

Quote:
My body sucked the poison out and stored it in my eyes... so I can shoot it out later like a toad.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Cellion wrote:
I'd love some details on the four rogue talents, if anyone with the book is willing to share. I kind of have my fingers crossed that they'll make a poison-based rogue worth making, though I know that's pretty unlikely.
** spoiler omitted **

The last one sounds like it's basically

** spoiler omitted **

Actually... I think you can do that now. Someone mentioned that there's a Rogue talent that makes your blood poisonous, and there's that feat from Horror Adventures that lets you squirt blood from your eyes.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I figure I might as well ask since it's bound to come up: does the spell Phase Step count as Dimendion Door for any kind of prerequisite?

Also, why are there two pages dedicated to listing potions and their costs?


DeciusNero wrote:

Ezren and Damiel are having a cook off!

Also, more nagaji and grippli, as well as a bloodline sounds cool (growing a scorpion tail involved?)!

It would seem not, though personally, I will be adding in the character being able to grow a fleshwarped scorpion tail as a normal action. Or just permanently give them the tail


Zenshrom wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:

Ezren and Damiel are having a cook off!

Also, more nagaji and grippli, as well as a bloodline sounds cool (growing a scorpion tail involved?)!

It would seem not, though personally, I will be adding in the character being able to grow a fleshwarped scorpion tail as a normal action. Or just permanently give them the tail

I thought it mentioned growing an etheric tail to sting things with at higher level ?.....but I was just skimming...


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The item Reaper's Wisdom looks to have some sort of error caused by editing the item's effects. The item description "increases the virulence of all poisons used by the wearer", but despite this the item just gives a once per day ability and nothing else.

Not only this the once per day ability is just bypassing delay poison. This ability is pathetically weak for its 21k price tag. Did the item previously bypass delay poison on every hit?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Given its prerequisites, I'm guessing it had some sort of actual enhancement effect.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On my first two passes through -

Generally positive about the book, but the reviews seem to be way overrating the Toxin Codexer archetype - It's good, but there are still going to be issues. Maybe it's just me, but the scaling poison DCs are still pretty hard to push upwards, even with
higher level extracts, since realistically the formula (10 + Extract + Int Mod) is going to hit a wall around the low 20s in DC.

Feats like Powerful Poisoning and Designer Poison will help a fair measure though - I think I can maybe get a 6th level extract to around ~30ish DC with enough finagling, but that seems like the upward limit.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So finally digested the book more fully. The book's called Potions and Poisons, but it really should have been called Drugs and Drinks because those are the best parts of the book by far. The new elixirs are all cool and useful (especially the Spirit Rush one which is a good reason your returning boss fight can escape certain death), the tinctures are really good for the most part (and remind me a lot of those alchemical burn/inspiration items from Ultimate Intrigue) and those new drugs actually look like something that people would use for some reason, because the old ones were honestly pretty lame. Like remember that weird Investigator archetype that got immunity to drugs? I can totally see using that now in conjunction with these new things.

The new poisons are also fun, since they're focused more on weird side-effects than ability score damage, but poisons in general also seem to be lacking a bit of boosting support in this book. Yes yes there's Toxin Codexer and the Designer Poison stuff, but that's really not a big boost to their effectiveness, not to mention they're class locked (and in the case of the Codexer the poisons are level-locked too). It makes the Codexer function more similarly to an Eldritch Poisoner or Toxicant, except it gives up spell slots to do so. Anathema and Greater Anathema though, that's the real gem in the book for poisoning creatures. I don't know if it makes up for the lack of support elsewhere, but my god I'm salivating over those talents.

Potions also lack support in the book. There's four feats, a few potable versions of spells, and one kind of weird Alchemist archetype? Definitely could have used a bit more pizzazz, especially since there's the two pages of space spent on potions that already exist?


Swordwraith wrote:
Feats like Powerful Poisoning and Designer Poison will help a fair measure though - I think I can maybe get a 6th level extract to around ~30ish DC with enough finagling, but that seems like the upward limit.

I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).

Plus, of course, you can always apply debuffs. Grab a Spell-Storing Weapon and get your friendly wizard to cast Pernicious Poison into it. Bam, guaranteed -4 to the target's saves.

Anyway. I'm not sure this is so radically different than saying 'the wizard's DCs max out at a certain level'. A Toxin Codexer, or any poisoner really, is a save-based character in the same way an enchanter bard is.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
NeoTiamat wrote:


I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).

Yes, but their base DC generally ends up being not much better than their equivalent, purchasable forms - You're just saving GP (which of course, is nice.)

I knew I was forgetting a couple of things. So yeah, about 30ish. Pretty good, but I still think it's not the 'suddenly poisoners are playable by the grace of this alone' that some reviews argued.

Still an extremely fun archetype, also.

Silver Crusade

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Anyone have a thought on Vaporous Potion and action economy?

If i drop a vaporous potion on the ground, does it break?


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Swordwraith wrote:
NeoTiamat wrote:


I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).

Yes, but their base DC generally ends up being not much better than their equivalent, purchasable forms - You're just saving GP (which of course, is nice.)

I knew I was forgetting a couple of things. So yeah, about 30ish. Pretty good, but I still think it's not the 'suddenly poisoners are playable by the grace of this alone' that some reviews argued.

Still an extremely fun archetype, also.

I do consider it to be “suddenly poisons are playable by the grace of this alone”. Those DCs are sufficient for me when I’m playing Occultist, and the poisons are now free.


Made a fun Witch build using the new hexes in here. Starting at level five, you can poison somebody within thirty feet as a swift action by revealing a secret and turn invisible as a move action. That leaves your standard free for high-fiving Norgorber or whatever.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Swordwraith wrote:
NeoTiamat wrote:


I mean, that's sort of the point. You can take your extract-based poisons, which gives them a much more solid DC, and then start layering on the other tricks that poison-based characters have used for ages. Use a Spinal Sword or Sankhpang, that's +1 or +2 DC. Make it Virulent and get your friendly wizard to cast GMW on it, that's another +1 to +5. Grab Poison Focus, another +1. Bam, that's about +5 to DCs, and we haven't even started on the more tenuous things (Deific Obedience Norgorber -- +2 DCs past level 16, Insightful Delivery, +2 to +4 to DCs with Studied Strike, the Poison Concoction Trait, +1 to DCs for two specific poisons).

Yes, but their base DC generally ends up being not much better than their equivalent, purchasable forms - You're just saving GP (which of course, is nice.)

I knew I was forgetting a couple of things. So yeah, about 30ish. Pretty good, but I still think it's not the 'suddenly poisoners are playable by the grace of this alone' that some reviews argued.

Still an extremely fun archetype, also.

I do consider it to be “suddenly poisons are playable by the grace of this alone”. Those DCs are sufficient for me when I’m playing Occultist, and the poisons are now free.

Not to derail too much, but what is the Occultist trick that raises Poison DCs?


There isn’t one. I meant that the Investigator’s poison archetype gives DCs comparable to the spell DCs of any 6/9 class (other than Mesmerist). Occultist is just the one I happen to use most. If those DCs were good enough for me, I’d consider them enough to use free poisons (especially ingestion ones).


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
There isn’t one. I meant that the Investigator’s poison archetype gives DCs comparable to the spell DCs of any 6/9 class (other than Mesmerist). Occultist is just the one I happen to use most. If those DCs were good enough for me, I’d consider them enough to use free poisons (especially ingestion ones).

I kind of realized that after posting but just wanted to verify.

Unrelated, but since you mentioned ingestion poisons, I also really appreciate the ability to change up poison types more in this book. That one Alchemist discovery was a real game-changer, and having it spread to other classes and magic items adds a lot of potential.

Silver Crusade

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Franz Lunzer wrote:

Anyone have a thought on Vaporous Potion and action economy?

If i drop a vaporous potion on the ground, does it break?

No one?


Nobody mentioned Apron of the Careful Chemist? A tiny markup (for the extra effect) to a belt of dex +2 in a different (and rarely used) slot? That's huge for characters that want two physical scores (archers, kinetisits) and summoners. Snakeskin tunic does a similar thing, but its much more expensive thanks to including an amulet of armor.


Question on Phase Step. I know it was included in this book because it is a potable version of Dimension Door, but it is also castable as a spell.

If brewed into a potion it is pretty clear how it works: Subject spends a standard action to drink the potion, teleports a short distance, and then its turn ends (unless it has the Dimensional Agility feat) as per the spell D-Door.

But if cast as a spell, you can target another willing subject touched. What happens to that subject's actions? It is transferred to the new location on your turn, not its turn. Does it lose the entirety of its next action? Only lose the remainder of its current action (for example, if it was readying or delaying)? Or suffer no penalty and just act normally on its each initiative?

Dimension Door says after using it you can't take any actions until your next turn. "You" means the caster when talking about a spell, though it becomes the subject when dealing with a potion. So it sounds like if you cast it as a spell, you can't then take additional actions that round, but the subject who is teleported (assuming you didn't target yourself) is not impaired.


Question also on Vaporous Potions. Clearly, the intent is that you can use potions as improvised single-target (targets one square) ranged "attacks" to provide the benefits of the potion to a party member. But what about hitting my own square?

Drinking a potion in combat is normally a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The text says the vial is considered an improvised weapon, so if I throw it at my own square I still provoke attacks of opportunity (for making a ranged attack in a threatened area, if I don't have the proper feat), which means I might as well just drink it. But what about simply dropping it? Dropping a held item is a free action that does not provoke, but would there be a chance it fails to break? If it doesn't break, can't I just stomp on the following round since it will then be an unattended object?

If dropping it without provoking works, then will brew every potion this way and drop them like ninja bombs at my own feet every combat. People will be able to tell where I have been by the caltrop-like spread of broken glass. Since applying this Versatile Brewing feat does not increase the level or cost of the potion, there really is no downside to applying it to every potion and keeping my options open.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AntiDjinn wrote:
But if cast as a spell, you can target another willing subject touched. What happens to that subject's actions? It is transferred to the new location on your turn, not its turn. Does it lose the entirety of its next action? Only lose the remainder of its current action (for example, if it was readying or delaying)? Or suffer no penalty and just act normally on its each initiative?

There's an FAQ about this exact question. Dimension Door only restricts the caster, not the other creatures that get brought along with the caster. So Phase Step, by virtue of being Dimension Door-lite also only affects the caster with the end-of-turn clause.


Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?


bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.


AntiDjinn wrote:
bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.

Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
AntiDjinn wrote:
bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/

Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.


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The other nice thing about anathemas is that they only work vs. creatures of the selected type. This is a benefit even if you are not trying to bypass racial poison immunity or a Periapt of Proof Against Poison. If you have prepared an inhaled dust poison as an anathema for drow, you can freely disperse it without worrying about harming a party member (unless you have one in your party). If you have converted an ingested poison, you can mix it in food, serve it at the table, and even go ahead and eat that food in front of your target to show it is harmless.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alchemaic wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
AntiDjinn wrote:
bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/
Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question, but the discovery Celestial Poison lets one poison both evil outsiders and undead (from Champions of Purity). It does bypass poison immunity for those categories of monster.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fourshadow wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
AntiDjinn wrote:
bewareoftom wrote:

Question about the anathema (sorry if it was posted before), but does it keep the original poison's effects as well or is it all replaced by the debuffs?

So lets say I make an anathema from medium spider venom is it the 1d2 str dmg for 4 rounds AND reduce chosen ability by 5 for X rounds, or is it just DC 14 for reduced ability by 5 for X rounds?

The text says "When an investigator creates or prepares a poison, including poisons derived from racial or class abilities, he can spend one use of inspiration to create an anathema instead." So you get the racial targeting specification and whatever other ability you select instead of what the poison would normally do. The only properties of the poison held over are method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) and save DC.
Ooh, crud. I misread that. Well, looks like the poison-using Investigator can't actually prepare poisons to bypass immunities. :/
Would it be a problem if it DID do that though? I can't see it being super overpowered or anything to finally be able to bypass the multiple poison immunities that creatures get just by existing and being a certain type. Maybe just have the Anathema effect wear off after a day so you can't stockpile the stuff.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your question, but the discovery Celestial Poison lets one poison both evil outsiders and undead (from Champions of Purity). It does bypass poison immunity for those categories of monster.

Yeah, which just leaves Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Aeons, Behemoths, Elementals, Inevitables, and Psychopomps.

Scarab Sages

So I just received and opened up mine, and I just wish to say I like the cover! Definitely one of the better ones (I'd give anything for Paizo to start doing something like those those masterful photographed-faux-tomes that graced the 3.0 hardbacks, but that's neither here nor there).

Damiel looks beautiful - although there is the problem of his eyes being wrong. He's an ELF! I totally dig the way Pathfinder does Elven eyes, so friggin' stick with it!

Then there's Ezren back there...what's the deal with that guy? Did he take the Elongated Cranium (Ovoid Compression) feat or something??? And why is it Ezren back there anyways, and not the Iconic Investigator guy (Quinn, is it?), since he's the other "alchemical mage"? Heck, why not even the Iconic Ninja (Reiko?), since it's "Potions & Poisons"?

One other thing: I really appreciated the interior of the cover (alchemical gear from different regions) - but why not one from Ustalav??? They've got Lepidstadt U, you know!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I've always assumed that Damiel's eyes were like that because of too much exposure to (al)chemical fumes... the elven equivalent of permanently contracted pupils.

Dark Archive

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

One other thing: I really appreciated the interior of the cover (alchemical gear from different regions) - but why not one from Ustalav??? They've got Lepidstadt U, you know!

By thunder, the Archdean WILL hear of this...!

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