Do you mean Agile Maneuvers rather than Weapon Finesse? Either way, if both are available, I would say is players choice.
Agile Maneuvers (Combat)
You’ve learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Strength bonus.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
When you have any order of operations issues to deal with i.e. two contradictory rules, I believe historically it just turns into "pick one." For example weapon finesse says "you may" so if your hitting with your int, and your int is drained, you may then choose to use your weapon finesse feat instead.
But if one class feature clearly goes out of its way to say "always" or "never" or something, I believe it is specifically saying that no other option can override that. For example the mauler familiar archetype comes to mind:
At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a mauler’s Strength score increases by 1. As a result of this ability, the familiar’s Intelligence score remains 6; a mauler can never have an Intelligence score higher than 6.
seems to go out of its way to say you are never allowed to use other class features/magic to go above 6.
In this case, the white-haired witch gives you a specific kind of grapple attack that follows its own rules. Agile Maneuvers wouldn't apply here since Strength was never a consideration in the first place. It'd be like trying to apply Agile Maneuvers to black tentacles.
The default CMB stat is Strength. Both Agile Maneuvers and the White-Haired Witch are referring to that default state. If you have both, you would be able to choose from one grapple attempt to another based on which bonus is better for your character.
The attack itself is described as a primary natural attack that uses Intelligence. If you had Weapon Finesse, that would be a call by the GM to say which way it would work. If it were my table, I'd allow it to use either Intelligence or Dexterity, because Weapon Finesse works just fine for natural attacks. The functionally important part is that you can use your Dexterity as the attack's key stat, not what it was before the substitution.
Further, at my table I would rule that Weapon Finesse is enough without requiring Agile Maneuvers, because the character is using the natural weapon to make the grapple attempt. Maneuvers using a weapon can use the weapon's bonuses (including the key stat) for the check. While a little strange to apply it to a grapple, this is still (mechanically speaking) no different in my mind.
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The default CMB stat is Strength. Both Agile Maneuvers and the White-Haired Witch are referring to that default state.
OP is correct that the default stat is Dex for tiny creatures. I think this is an oversight on behalf of Paizo and the intention is that you'd use INT instead of DEX for white haired witch grapples if your witch was tiny.
Otherwise, the two (tiny creatures and white hair witches) are just completely incompatible.
OP is correct that the default stat is Dex for tiny creatures. I think this is an oversight on behalf of Paizo and the intention is that you'd use INT instead of DEX for white haired witch grapples if your witch was tiny.The default CMB stat is Strength. Both Agile Maneuvers and the White-Haired Witch are referring to that default state.
Mechanically speaking, Strength is the default for CMB and melee attacks of all kinds in the base system. The default for Tiny creatures is Dexterity because they have Weapon Finesse as a feat. At least, the ones I have looked at all have it as a feat; I have yet to see an exception that still has Dexterity as its key combat stat.
I agree that someone that is not naturally Tiny or smaller would not default to Dexterity, unless they had a feat or ability (such as Weapon Finesse) that lets them.
Regardless, the intention is still the same: whichever substituted stat your ability or feat says you can use is meant to replace whichever stat is normally the key ability score.
If there needs to be a FAQ post about this for future reference, I'm all in favor of that.
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I don't think a Tiny (through polymorphing) character gets Dex to-hit by default.
EDIT: If this is a GM allowing an actual tiny fox PC, not a Kitsune in Fox Form, then you're already into house rule territory, and it would be reasonable to allow Dex to-hit like a fox would normally get.
As far as mentioned by the OP, GM has allowed the PC to play a fox for their character. Could be a beast-bonded witch, or something, and be within normal rules, but OP didn't say.
Regarding size decreases for small characters, my understanding is that CMB is recalculated if your small character become tiny or smaller. Just like if a tiny creature was raised to Small, you'd need to recalculate CMB.
CMD is also adjusted, though this is a byproduct of the change in stats and size bonus, not because different stats are used.
I will note that Reduce Person is not a Polymorph effect. Becoming Tiny isn't just limited to Polymorph.
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As an aside, I don't think playing an animal with class levels is strictly a houserule. You'd need GM permission, but there's no need for alternate rules in character creation or otherwise. You'd have racial hit die as per the bestiary entry, and then apply class levels as you acquire them as per the rules for monsters as PCs. Certainly not PFS legal, but I don't think it would require a houserule, technically speaking.
Though I think a witch would be a tough one for an animal, since the witch needs INT and as an animal your INT is probably 1 or 2.
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Mechanically speaking, Strength is the default for CMB and melee attacks of all kinds in the base system. The default for Tiny creatures is Dexterity because they have Weapon Finesse as a feat. At least, the ones I have looked at all have it as a feat; I have yet to see an exception that still has Dexterity as its key combat stat.OP is correct that the default stat is Dex for tiny creatures. I think this is an oversight on behalf of Paizo and the intention is that you'd use INT instead of DEX for white haired witch grapples if your witch was tiny.The default CMB stat is Strength. Both Agile Maneuvers and the White-Haired Witch are referring to that default state.
Read CMB in the combat section of the CRB (or on PRD). Tiny or smaller creatures use Dex, which is the basis of the OP's question.
Weapon Finesse, as aside, has no effect on CMB, as far as I know (it might apply to maneuvers made with weapons subject to weapon finesse). Agile Maneuvers is the equivelent feat for CMB.
Additionally, Familiars may choose the best of Str and Dex for their attacks with natural weapons. The Familiar one is it's own thing and often confused with these, hence including it. I will note that the familiar doesn't get this option if it lacks natural attacks (like the toad familiar who has no natural weapons).
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Hmm... looking at it again, I'm not sure. You may be correct. The part about using Dexterity modifier in place of Strength is actually in the section for determining CMB. So a PC might actually get that when they become tiny.
They do not get the benefits of Weapon Finesse, though. So normal attacks with the hair would still be based on Strength, since neither being tiny nor the white-haired witch ability change that. Weapon Finesse does affect maneuvers performed with a weapon. It's questionable whether or not that includes the WHW grapple. The hair is a natural weapon, but grapple is not normally a maneuver used with a weapon.
All of that lines up with the actual fox entry in the bestiary. It's listed with an 9 STR, 15 DEX, +0 BAB (and +2 size for being tiny, -2 CMB/CMD for being tiny). Its bite is listed as +1, so +0BAB-1STR+2size. Its CMB is listed as +0 +0BAB+2DEX-2size. It does not have the Weapon Finesse feat.
Reduce person is a transmutation effect. If it doesn't use the rules under polymorph to determine what happens when you change size, then you don't recalculate your CMB, as it's the polymorph rules telling you to do that. Reduce person itself doesn't say anything about modifying CMB. But I'm going to guess that it's supposed to follow the rules under polymorph. I also don't think you can reduce person to become tiny after casting alter self to become small, either. (You didn't say you could, but if it's not a polymorph effect, the two would potentially stack).
Read CMB in the combat section of the CRB (or on PRD). Tiny or smaller creatures use Dex, which is the basis of the OP's question.
Thank you. I stand corrected.
Weapon Finesse, as aside, has no effect on CMB, as far as I know (it might apply to maneuvers made with weapons subject to weapon finesse). Agile Maneuvers is the equivelent feat for CMB.
Weapon Finesse does indeed apply to maneuvers made using appropriate weapons. You would, of course, need Agile Maneuvers for the rest.
Hmm... looking at it again, I'm not sure. You may be correct. The part about using Dexterity modifier in place of Strength is actually in the section for determining CMB. So a PC might actually get that when they become tiny.
The part that's unclear to me is if you'd get the Dexterity replacement if you simply become Tiny or smaller, or if you would need to naturally be Tiny or smaller.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
The wording isn't really clear if that means as appropriate to their type (melee vs ranged), appropriate to your new size, or both.
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The polymorph rules do say to recalculate your CMB, so I think I agree with Murdock on that point now. You would recalculate, and CMB tells you to use Dex for a tiny creature instead of STR. That has an interesting side-affect if you have an enemy that is STR based and can somehow reduce them to tiny, they'd have to use dex on CMB. Not going to be very common, just interesting.
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I actually just finished a campaign as a white haired witch that ran around in fox shape grappling giant things. :) an absolute must for the build is the "equality for all" trait
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The original question stands, when multiple sources attempt to replace the same stat, is there a hard rule on this?
Strictly as written, the rules are broken and don't really function right. It's very clear that the intention on the White Haired witch is to replace the CMB stat mod with INT. So I'd go with that for clarity on the White Haired Witch entry.
Regarding the multiple abilities that swap stat mods used. This one is complex regarding the natural attacks of white haired witch. You'd use Dex on attack rolls (due to weapon finesse), INT to damage, INT on CMB grapple rolls made as a free action via this attack. For grapple attempts without the white hair, you'd use Dex. The INT trumps the weapon finesse because there is no choice given in the witch's ability description, while weapon finesse is optional to use (a character with weapon finesse is still free to use Str for attack).
Regarding the later abilities of the White Haired Witch, RAW, you'd use DEX for any other Combat Maneuvers because they don't actually say to use INT. That said, I think it's strongly implied that they intend INT for all combat maneuvers granted by the class ability, so I suggest going with that.
The class archetypes in this book are some of the worst in terms of needing FAQs or fixes to make them playable. On the other hand, they are really awesome archetypes...
Murdock. For my tiny character. I don't have the option of using str for grapple. Forget about weapon finesse. It's due to my size and the cmb rules.
When the white witch archetype attempts to swap str for int. I think it fails as there is no str in the equation.
The better wording for whw would have been "you may use int instead of the governing attribute"
FTFY
That's essentially what the conclusion has been, so far as I'm seeing. The archetypes, feats, spells, and other content pieces are written with the assumption that the PCs are either Small- or Medium-sized, because most of the time* they are. Wording like "Use [stat] instead of Strength for [purpose]" is also operating under that assumption.
There are cases where the literal word-for-word reading of the rule, ability, etc is not the way it should work all of the time. This is one of those.
* Assuming PFS games, modules, and some arbitrary percentage of homebrew games. As with most things, YMMV.
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Exactly what I'm suggesting.Murdock. For my tiny character. I don't have the option of using str for grapple. Forget about weapon finesse. It's due to my size and the cmb rules.
Strictly as written, the rules are broken and don't really function right. It's very clear that the intention on the White Haired witch is to replace the CMB stat mod with INT. So I'd go with that for clarity on the White Haired Witch entry.
Strange question
If I had a white haired witch, with weapon finesse how do I determine which order to use in stat substitution for grapples.
1) white haired witch ability replaces str with int. Nothing for weapon finesse to interact with
2) weapon finesse replaces str with Dex, nothing for white haired witch to interact with
3) players choice?
According to the FAQ, White Haired Witches still use Str on attack rolls for their hair. So Weapon Finesse would let you replace Str with Dex the way it usually does for normal attacks.
The special grapple does pose issues. Since your size requires you to use Dex instead of Str, it does seem that you wouldn't be able to replace Str with Int.
Last question ... when I use fox-shape to turn into a tiny fox ... does my white haired witch hair attack still work using my fox hair, or does it disappear?
Foxes still have hair. The FAQ linked above states that even creatures without hair can take the archetype and will grow hair to support it. So it should work just fine in arctic fox form. :)
Feauce,
My questions is more along the realm of** spoiler omitted **
The white haired witch's class ability ... is it the use of her (own / natural) hair, or is it the use of the hair she has on her, even if it's from a new form?
I believe it to be retained, but since this is for PFS, I want to verify beforehand.
Because the archetype provides hair if your form does not have it, as a GM, I would rule that it does not "depend on your original form" as specified by the polymorph rules. As I understand it, if you could make such attacks or use those abilities if the new form was your natural-born form, then you're good to go. Attacks using your hair should stick around, because you still have hair and could still make such attacks if being a fox was your original and only form.
Also, class features, skills, feats, etc. are typically retained between forms, so long as the alternate form is capable of making use of them. Spellcasting is one that usually is not retained, due to the lack of humanoid voice, hands, etc. This doesn't rely on any of those things, though.