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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

***( )( ) (based on 51 ratings)
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

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Wild, untamed lands hold a wealth of mystery and danger, providing the perfect backdrop for heroic adventure. Whether adventurers are climbing mountains in search of a dragon's lair, carving their way through the jungle, or seeking a long-lost holy city covered by desert sands, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness gives them the tools to survive the wilds. A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with new class features derived from animalistic attributes. Overviews of druidic sects and rituals, as well as new archetypes, character options, spells, and more, round out the latest contribution to the Pathfinder RPG rules!

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness is an invaluable hardcover companion to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an open playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into a new era.

Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness includes:

  • The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a heightened level of savagery to the battlefield!
  • Archetypes for alchemists, barbarians, bards, druids, hunters, investigators, kineticists, paladins, rangers, rogues, slayers, witches, and more!
  • Feats and magic items for characters of all sorts granting mastery over the perils of nature and enabling them to harvest natural power by cultivating magical plants.
  • Dozens of spells to channel, protect, or thwart the powers of natural environs.
  • New and expanded rules to push your animal companions, familiars, and mounts to wild new heights.
  • A section on the First World with advice, spells, and other features to integrate the fey realm into your campaign.
  • Systems for exploring new lands and challenging characters with natural hazards and strange terrain both mundane and feytouched.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-986-8

Note: This product is part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscription.

Product Availability

Print Edition: Ships from our warehouse in 1 to 7 business days.

PDF: Will be added to your My Downloads Page immediately upon purchase of PDF.

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

PZO1140


See Also:

Product Discussion (3,250)
3,151 to 3,200 of 3,250 << first < prev | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | next > last >>
Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Given how many other things are non-functional or not workable in this book, I can't help but wonder perhaps erroneously, no claim to perfection here that it was simply left off by mistake... like so many other mistakes...


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Given how many other things are non-functional or not workable in this book, I can't help but wonder perhaps erroneously, no claim to perfection here that it was simply left off by mistake... like so many other mistakes...

Oh, I'll make NO effort in defence of the books logic... I can only work with what they've given us and that means taking a feat once only unless the feat says otherwise.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
jedi8187 wrote:

This is sounding like a cool book. Thanks Benjamin for sharing info.

Happy the Phytokineticist is getting the reprint, and finally getting it's basic skill.

Now if only the Chaokineticist got itself a reprint... maybe in Planar Adventures? *crosses fingers*


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's already been confirmed not to be over in the product thread, I'm afraid. ^_^


3 people marked this as a favorite.

What I find most troubling about this book, and of course the Shifter specifically is not that is poorly written, contradictory, and is appears to have been written by 5 different people in separate rooms. No my concern is that Paizo is an amazing company that makes thousands of awesome products that I LOVE, but it is no secret that 5e is flourishing amongst those who desire a simpler chassis for gaming, and PF marches on with it's fans who adore the freedom and choice presented to it's players(myself included). Now we are literally told that Shifter is a dud because people didn't want to have choices. I'd rather believe that you are lying than to think that is actually the reality of the situation

Shadow Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Who exactly are you suggesting is lying? As far as I know, the only dev to speak up here is Mark and he was not part of the Shifter team.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Based on my reading of the reviews, it seems to come down to this:

Players who purchased the book for player options, especially the Shifter, are rating it at one star or two if they recognize some value in other choices beyond the shifter and reprints.

People who look at this more from a GM standpoint with wilderness rules and information to build a wilderness style campaign are rating it four stars to five.

A few are taking a more player options/Campaign material balance approach and are rating it three to four stars.

This is one of those books where the value seems to depend entirely from how you approach the material. With that in mind, the three star rating it has averaged into seems appropriate overall.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Shifter is hopeless; rest of the book is great. I'd settle for a blog post showing the fixed Shifter version and/or a revised PDF later. Right now my book has been hidden in the shame pile away from my players' eyes.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

That's telling what?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

That's telling what?

That the haversack is far from handy.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Phranklin wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

That's telling what?
That the haversack is far from handy.

You're talking to the wrong purse.

Paizo Employee Designer

9 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

That's telling what?

That a new class was released in a fall product for the first time (fall products have always otherwise been Bestiaries or Codexes: Bestiary, Bestiary 2, Bestiary 3, NPC Codex, Bestiary 4, Monster Codex, Bestiary 5, Bestiary 6, Ultimate Wilderness) and thus not released very close to Gencon when the new iconic pregens traditionally come out.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Lead Developer

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

Our primary push to release new pregenerated characters is at Gen Con. When a new book with new classes debuts at Gen Con, we push to have the corresponding pregenerated characters ready at the same time. When a new book debuts later than that, the character files usually come later. Looking at the vigilante, for example, that book came out in early 2016, and the vigilante pregenerated character appears to have debuted at Gen Con 2016.

I strongly suspect that we'll publish the shifter pregenerated character before then, but I don't have a specific date scheduled. In the meantime, I recommend not using the organized play team's production schedule as a barometer for what is or is not true about this book.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Typically the pregens are issued/launched/made available with the product (from my limited experience, at least) to help folks understand the classes presented and stir up some positive feelings for a given class.

It's how I discovered both Shaman and Slayer, and how Shardra is never very far from my travel kit in case I need to pre-gen something Standard.


All I know is I love Ultimate Wilderness more than I did Adventure's Guide.


I asked this in the Errata Thread, but I wanted to ask here as well, just in case Mark might not be watching both..

The Gathlain in UW does not show the Favored Class Bonus that was mentioned before in the Legacy of the First World, namely their ability to slowly reduce the Burn they took per level (1/6th per level I think it was).. was this intentional, or simply an oversight/misprint?

Side question, Mutated Form (I think it is called, the one that lets you add another attack to a shapeshifted character), is it only take once, or can it be taken several times?

Thank you for any and all information you might have.

Paizo Employee Designer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Janos1 wrote:

I asked this in the Errata Thread, but I wanted to ask here as well, just in case Mark might not be watching both..

The Gathlain in UW does not show the Favored Class Bonus that was mentioned before in the Legacy of the First World, namely their ability to slowly reduce the Burn they took per level (1/6th per level I think it was).. was this intentional, or simply an oversight/misprint?

Side question, Mutated Form (I think it is called, the one that lets you add another attack to a shapeshifted character), is it only take once, or can it be taken several times?

Thank you for any and all information you might have.

The second question is probably better off as a rules question than in the product thread (though the answer is that you can never take a feat multiple times unless it has a "Special" section saying you can).

The first question is about the product contents so is more appropriate for the product thread. Sometimes different books contain different combinations of classes included than other books for Favored Class Bonuses. Does Ultimate Wilderness contain all of the other gathlain FCBs from Legacy of the First World?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Class Deck, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
TOZ wrote:
Who exactly are you suggesting is lying? As far as I know, the only dev to speak up here is Mark and he was not part of the Shifter team.

It's a reasonably common occurrence: someone posts a complaint, paizo-fan posts a speculative explanation, someone else takes that as the "official position" and then critiques it.

I don't think there's been any official statement that "The shifter is a dud because people didn't want to have choices" (which is apparently what we've literally been told).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For the Gathlain favored class options, the Bard and the Rogue appear to be the only classes listed in both Ultimate WIlderness and Legacy of the First World, and the options for those two classes are different between the two sources -- so Ultimate Wilderness added a bunch of new options with no duplications or changes to existing options for favored classes.

Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Compton wrote:


Our primary push to release new pregenerated characters is at Gen Con. When a new book with new classes debuts at Gen Con, we push to have the corresponding pregenerated characters ready at the same time. When a new book debuts later than that, the character files usually come later. Looking at the vigilante, for example, that book came out in early 2016, and the vigilante pregenerated character appears to have debuted at Gen Con 2016.

I strongly suspect that we'll publish the shifter pregenerated character before then, but I don't have a specific date scheduled. In the meantime, I recommend not using the organized play team's production schedule as a barometer for what is or is not true about this book.

*...wipes egg off face, offers apology for subsequent post (which has been flagged for removal)...*

Thank you for the clarification, sir.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Class Deck, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

No crime (or egg), in my opinion. Though kudos for following up.

We base our impressions on limited information. You were pretty clear it was your opinion, not some set-in-stone fact. (You even acknowledged limited experience).


Mark Seifter wrote:
Janos1 wrote:

I asked this in the Errata Thread, but I wanted to ask here as well, just in case Mark might not be watching both..

The Gathlain in UW does not show the Favored Class Bonus that was mentioned before in the Legacy of the First World, namely their ability to slowly reduce the Burn they took per level (1/6th per level I think it was).. was this intentional, or simply an oversight/misprint?

Side question, Mutated Form (I think it is called, the one that lets you add another attack to a shapeshifted character), is it only take once, or can it be taken several times?

Thank you for any and all information you might have.

The second question is probably better off as a rules question than in the product thread (though the answer is that you can never take a feat multiple times unless it has a "Special" section saying you can).

The first question is about the product contents so is more appropriate for the product thread. Sometimes different books contain different combinations of classes included than other books for Favored Class Bonuses. Does Ultimate Wilderness contain all of the other gathlain FCBs from Legacy of the First World?

Thank you for responding Mark, it is good to know the answer to the first question (and I apologize for the wrong forum, I have rarely ever posted, so wasn't sure where to post at, so once again, I apologize for that.)

As for the second Question, as David knott 242 stated, the only FCB that are in both books are indeed the bard and the rogue. All the others are split between books.

Paizo Employee Designer

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Janos1 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Janos1 wrote:

I asked this in the Errata Thread, but I wanted to ask here as well, just in case Mark might not be watching both..

The Gathlain in UW does not show the Favored Class Bonus that was mentioned before in the Legacy of the First World, namely their ability to slowly reduce the Burn they took per level (1/6th per level I think it was).. was this intentional, or simply an oversight/misprint?

Side question, Mutated Form (I think it is called, the one that lets you add another attack to a shapeshifted character), is it only take once, or can it be taken several times?

Thank you for any and all information you might have.

The second question is probably better off as a rules question than in the product thread (though the answer is that you can never take a feat multiple times unless it has a "Special" section saying you can).

The first question is about the product contents so is more appropriate for the product thread. Sometimes different books contain different combinations of classes included than other books for Favored Class Bonuses. Does Ultimate Wilderness contain all of the other gathlain FCBs from Legacy of the First World?

Thank you for responding Mark, it is good to know the answer to the first question (and I apologize for the wrong forum, I have rarely ever posted, so wasn't sure where to post at, so once again, I apologize for that.)

No worries; not an accusation, just letting you know for next time you have a rules question! :)


Lot of stuff to sift through, just getting to the important part.

We getting a revision of the class or.....nah?

Mind you, this is going to taint future products introducing classes without public playtests.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Barachiel Shina wrote:

Lot of stuff to sift through, just getting to the important part.

We getting a revision of the class or.....nah?

Mind you, this is going to taint future products introducing classes without public playtests.

Completely unknown....the reaction to Shifter and it's archetypes has been more or less met with silence. So we will just have to wait and see.


8 people marked this as a favorite.
nighttree wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:

Lot of stuff to sift through, just getting to the important part.

We getting a revision of the class or.....nah?

Mind you, this is going to taint future products introducing classes without public playtests.

Completely unknown....the reaction to Shifter and it's archetypes has been more or less met with silence. So we will just have to wait and see.

I disagree with this. The reaction has been as public as I'd expect - which is that it looks like the company is somewhat in shock and disappointed at the reaction, and have circled the wagons because community discourse dove into the 'hostile' end of the pool.

I don't expect any company to come out and flat out poop on their own product - and I'm pretty sure based on the number of Paizo people who've had to moderate these discussions that community reaction is well known. How that will affect things going forward is a huge question - but we (as customers) have to balance the fact that this isn't like making a widget on a car. Someone had to write the text, work on the rules, and craft things into what we have now. For a creative person (especially when they are being paid to churn out stuff) the act of giving us this content is like bringing a new life into the world.

Now look at the community reaction.

Frankly I don't think it would be healthy for the author or those directly involved to speak on the issue - for another example I'd point to the Ben Affleck interview for Batman vs. Superman where he stares off into the void (with the edited video playing 'sound of silence' to dramatic effect) - seriously the public rejection of a creative work is devastating.

I don't begrudge anyone from being disappointed or upset with what we have - that's your right. Try to keep in mind that we are dealing with people at the other end, and that this isn't 'mega-anon-company' with 'PR robot #3' responding. I'm sure if we can keep things respectful we'll get more back than if we (as a community) just keep chucking hammers.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Ckorik wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:

Lot of stuff to sift through, just getting to the important part.

We getting a revision of the class or.....nah?

Mind you, this is going to taint future products introducing classes without public playtests.

Completely unknown....the reaction to Shifter and it's archetypes has been more or less met with silence. So we will just have to wait and see.
Ckorik wrote:

I disagree with this. The reaction has been as public as I'd expect - which is that it looks like the company is somewhat in shock and disappointed at the reaction, and have circled the wagons because community discourse dove into the 'hostile' end of the pool.

There has been ZERO response to the reaction for the class. That's not even arguable. I would agree that they are in shock, and disappointed in the reception of the class....but it is also completely unfair to act as though their silence is based on people being unreasonable (which is how your post comes across to me).

Ckorik wrote:
I don't expect any company to come out and flat out poop on their own product - and I'm pretty sure based on the number of Paizo people who've had to moderate these discussions that community reaction is well known.
I don't expect them to "poop" on their own product either....I do however expect them to acknowledge that they have disappointed their customers...and attempt to rectify the situation.
Ckorik wrote:
Frankly I don't think it would be healthy for the author or those directly involved to speak on the issue - for another example I'd point to the Ben Affleck interview for Batman vs. Superman where he stares off into the void (with the edited video playing 'sound of silence' to dramatic effect) - seriously the public rejection of a creative work is devastating.

That I will completely disagree with...the lack of response to peoples disappointment is in large part what is driving peoples disappointment to the extreme. As to not speak for others....I can without reservation say the longer they remain silent....the more disappointed I will become.

Ckorik wrote:
I don't begrudge anyone from being disappointed or upset with what we have - that's your right. Try to keep in mind that we are dealing with people at the other end, and that this isn't 'mega-anon-company' with 'PR robot #3' responding. I'm sure if we can keep things respectful we'll get more back than if we (as a...

For the most part everyone has. Those that are disappointed (the majority as near as I can tell) have actually been more civil in their comments than those speaking out against the disappointment.


Phranklin wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Equally telling is that there hasn't been a release of the Shifter pregen that I can see... and usually these things come out right with the source material...

That's telling what?
That the haversack is far from handy.

what? What!? WHAT!?!?!?!

Silver Crusade

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nighttree wrote:
For the most part everyone has. Those that are disappointed (the majority as near as I can tell) have actually been more civil in their comments than those speaking out against the disappointment.

You mean the people who advocated for Paizo employees to be fired or the ones who threatened physical violence against the company? :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
nighttree wrote:
For the most part everyone has. Those that are disappointed (the majority as near as I can tell) have actually been more civil in their comments than those speaking out against the disappointment.
You mean the people who advocated for Paizo employees to be fired or the ones who threatened physical violence against the company? :)

There's nothing uncivil about advocating (not demanding) that an employee who shamed and embarrassed a company be let go to demonstrate a commitment to better values (e.g. Weintsteingate) or work product (Shiftergate) going forward.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
nighttree wrote:
For the most part everyone has. Those that are disappointed (the majority as near as I can tell) have actually been more civil in their comments than those speaking out against the disappointment.
You mean the people who advocated for Paizo employees to be fired or the ones who threatened physical violence against the company? :)

That's why I prefaced my statement with "for the most part".....there have certainly been some people who made comments that are in bad taste ;)

Sovereign Court

22 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
There's nothing uncivil about advocating (not demanding) that an employee who shamed and embarrassed a company be let go to demonstrate a commitment to better values (e.g. Weintsteingate) or work product (Shiftergate) going forward.

Did... did you just compare an RPG class you didn't like... to years of unrestrained sexual harassment and assault?

Jesus Christ, this community. I can't even.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
There's nothing uncivil about advocating (not demanding) that an employee who shamed and embarrassed a company be let go to demonstrate a commitment to better values (e.g. Weintsteingate) or work product (Shiftergate) going forward.

Did... did you just compare an RPG class you didn't like... to years of unrestrained sexual harassment and assault?

Jesus Christ, this community. I can't even.

See, Kali?

*smokes a cigar*

That's how I am best at what I do, but what I do isn't really nice.

Liberty's Edge

15 people marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
There's nothing uncivil about advocating (not demanding) that an employee who shamed and embarrassed a company be let go to demonstrate a commitment to better values (e.g. Weintsteingate) or work product (Shiftergate) going forward.

There's a huge difference between advocating someone be fired for something horribly immoral and, indeed, illegal and advocating for them to be fired because their creative direction is not one you like.

This is not necessarily to say that saying someone should be fired for a creative direction you dislike is never warranted (I've advocated exactly this in regards to Zack Snyder for the DC Movies), but this particular comparison is messed the hell up.

Also, and unrelatedly, I don't think an isolated incident like Shifter is remotely sufficient ground for advocating a firing, but that's extraordinarily secondary to how messed up that comparison is.

Silver Crusade

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
nighttree wrote:
For the most part everyone has. Those that are disappointed (the majority as near as I can tell) have actually been more civil in their comments than those speaking out against the disappointment.
You mean the people who advocated for Paizo employees to be fired or the ones who threatened physical violence against the company? :)
There's nothing uncivil about advocating (not demanding) that an employee who shamed and embarrassed a company be let go to demonstrate a commitment to better values (e.g. Weintsteingate) or work product (Shiftergate) going forward.

What is wrong with you?!?!

I, really can’t come up with anything eloquent or laconic here, just, what?!?!


11 people marked this as a favorite.

Ye gods. This place really hasn't gotten any better in the couple of years I've been away. People are still demanding employee blood because they didn't like a product.

Oh well. See you all in 2020 I guess.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Asking for people to be fired because you are unhappy about the product is an over-reaction on an epic scale.

My advice is perhaps people not be the first in line to buy a product -- any product, be it a phone, a game book, a toy, whatever -- if they are concerned that they might mislike a product in such an extreme way. Wait for the reviews, wait for the fires to die down.

That way, you can manage your own expectations and if things are bad, you've saved yourself some money. If the item is good and up to your expectations, then I imagine there will be plenty left.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

*epic facepalm*

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Aaah...

*pours himself a glass of Laphroaig*

Target is outside the edit window.

*calls in airstrike*

Damn, I'm good.

*rocks the chair, puts Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" on*

"But Gorbacz, how can you even take any comfort from what you do? Can't you just hug kittens and focus on positive things?"

*empties the glass*

I do what I must because I can.

Dark Archive

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's been so many ' 'gates ' that it is the *fervent* hope from this angle that the poster who made the reference was referring to the original issue, ie, 'Watergate' rather than subsequent disturbing legitimate issues that have arisen.

I just saw James Jacobs' post in his question thread, and I can sympathize and empathize with the position he takes, and the above if meant in such a way makes his comment even more accurate and chilling.

Perhaps we need to lock this thread for now, and those of us who are dissatisfied/upset/concerned return our product politely, with no rancor or animosity or even credit back requested.

Then we should thank the design team for their efforts on our behalf but it was not the product that a goodly portion of us believed it would be, and politely and respectfully move on, wiser and more robust as a community for the lessons we have learned.

EDIT: Reread the disturbing comment above instead of skimming. Yeah, just lock this thread, please. Words fail me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, I see that I was universally misunderstood. I feel that there is a wide variety of causes that can call for civil discussion of whether it's healthy to let someone go, and obviously the Shifter fiasco is on the "not that big a deal" side of the spectrum. I also have never called for any firings, but I can certainly understand those who do.

Plenty of people have over time suggested after various setbacks at least as far back as the ACG that people not buy or subscribe to Paizo products until they correct their course. Taken far enough, that's a call for multiple layoffs or the folding of the company. Less personally offensive, perhaps, but even more painful.

In any case, I did not intend to offend. The Shifter is not an act of criminality or moral turpitude. It is arguably one of questionable competence at one's job function, however, and potentially one that harmed the company. I only intended to point out that those are firing offenses plenty of places, and a discussion of that is not uncivil.

Silver Crusade

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Well, I see that I was universally misunderstood.

No, your statement was perfectly clear.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Class Deck, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
The Shifter is not an act of criminality or moral turpitude. It is arguably one of questionable competence at one's job function, however, and potentially one that harmed the company.

Some people like the shifter. We've just learned that when the internet is on a roll expressing a contrary view is an invitation for demands to defend a preference.

It's an error to think that something you don't like in a creative field is bad. It's just something you dont like.

50 to 100 posters going on and on about how much they dislike something is also not a particularly meaningful measure of failure/success. Long term sales are.

I like Ultimate Wilderness - certainly higher up on my list than ACG or even APG.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steve Geddes wrote:


It's an error to think that something you don't like in a creative field is bad. It's just something you dont like.

You do not appear conversant with all common definitions and uses of the word "bad."

Liberty's Edge

12 people marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
Well, I see that I was universally misunderstood. I feel that there is a wide variety of causes that can call for civil discussion of whether it's healthy to let someone go, and obviously the Shifter fiasco is on the "not that big a deal" side of the spectrum. I also have never called for any firings, but I can certainly understand those who do.

You were not misunderstood (at least not by most people responding to your statement). Nobody (or not most people anyway) thought you were actually saying that creating the Shifter was morally equivalent to sexual assault. We just found you making the comparison between the two situations at all to be deeply inappropriate and tasteless.

Bringing up serious and traumatic incidents that hurt real people in a discussion about whether a class in an RPG could've been written better is just beyond inappropriate.

Xenocrat wrote:
Plenty of people have over time suggested after various setbacks at least as far back as the ACG that people not buy or subscribe to Paizo products until they correct their course. Taken far enough, that's a call for multiple layoffs or the folding of the company. Less personally offensive, perhaps, but even more painful.

Sure, people have been calling for that, though it doesn't seem to be happening. Don't underestimate how much of a difference being personally offensive is, though. Being personally offensive in this context is a big deal and seriously not cool.

Xenocrat wrote:
In any case, I did not intend to offend. The Shifter is not an act of criminality or moral turpitude. It is arguably one of questionable competence at one's job function, however, and potentially one that harmed the company. I only intended to point out that those are firing offenses plenty of places, and a discussion of that is not uncivil.

As I said earlier, I can see where you're coming from in regards to people being fired for making a product poorly or in a way the customer base does not enjoy.

But that doesn't mean the way it's been done in this thread (which has mostly just been entitled as s%!+, with an attitude of "I don't like this so the people responsible should be fired!" rather than any reasoned critique or analysis) is appropriate. Or useful.

And, more importantly, it hardly excuses the awful comparison you made. Which, to reiterate, was offensive on multiple levels to a wide variety of people and you haven't actually apologized for. Indeed, you just blamed people for misunderstanding you rather than accepting that you shouldn't have made the statement in the first place.


Personally, I don't see how hard it would be to do some sort of revision. A separate PDF file anyone can download and/or print. For those with the PDF, a new copy. For those with hard copies, well, best print out the PDF revision.

Many companies will take your product and replace it with something functional. If not, they still compensate you and you can get the same thing or something else entirely.

Car companies do "callbacks." Bring your car in, get what's wrong with it fixed, and continue on with what you originally paid for. A great quality product.

Now I'm not suggesting Paizo callback all their hard copy orders. But to do the electronic equivalent, instead. Revise, release as a PDF for those with hard copies to print (not the entire book, just the Shifter) and those with electronic copies can simply get a revised version of the PDF to re-download.

Done deal.

That's just how efficient customer service should work. Otherwise, you're just harming yourself as well as those who bought into something believing and being told it's one thing, only to find out it's nothing they expected or just poor quality of what they expected.

I believe we're not hearing much from their end because they're still considering what to do, if anything at all, but my hope is they're trying to do something. Maybe they're in the process and don't want to say much.

In time, we'll see.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

You’re right, I owe the community and Paizo an apology. I regret the comparison.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Barachiel Shina wrote:

Personally, I don't see how hard it would be to do some sort of revision. A separate PDF file anyone can download and/or print. For those with the PDF, a new copy. For those with hard copies, well, best print out the PDF revision.

Many companies will take your product and replace it with something functional. If not, they still compensate you and you can get the same thing or something else entirely.

Car companies do "callbacks." Bring your car in, get what's wrong with it fixed, and continue on with what you originally paid for. A great quality product.

Now I'm not suggesting Paizo callback all their hard copy orders. But to do the electronic equivalent, instead. Revise, release as a PDF for those with hard copies to print (not the entire book, just the Shifter) and those with electronic copies can simply get a revised version of the PDF to re-download.

Done deal.

That's just how efficient customer service should work. Otherwise, you're just harming yourself as well as those who bought into something believing and being told it's one thing, only to find out it's nothing they expected or just poor quality of what they expected.

I believe we're not hearing much from their end because they're still considering what to do, if anything at all, but my hope is they're trying to do something. Maybe they're in the process and don't want to say much.

In time, we'll see.

There is a bit of a difference in "Faulty brakes" and "I don't like the way this class was constructed."

Car companies aren't recalling and repairing those vehicles out of the goodness of their heart; rather, they'd like to not be sued by the families of and survivors of any accidents.

Something to consider is that the shifter class is exactly what they wanted, and there isn't a fix coming. If one is desired, it is certainly possible for individuals to work on them for their home games and have the product they want.

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