Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

You don't gain iterative attacks with natural weapons, so at lvl 6, it's just +6/+6. If you want to add on, you have to either start using a manufactured weapon, or find a way to add more natural attacks (of which there are quite a few).

I have been thinking a lot about the Shifter class...

...remember the in Beast Shape II, it states what abilities you get in the new form. The Major Form of the Aspects just modifies what is gained from BS 2. The owl aspect gets flying from BS 2 and then gains Flyby Attack at lvl 8.

While that is probably the case, the class sometimes tells you everything you would normally get from Beast Shape II, and other times seems to omit stuff. The Bear form, for example, only says it gives you low-light vision and scent, even though the actual Dire Bear has a 40ft movement speed and the grab ability on its bite. Both of those abilities are omitted. Now, it's reasonable to assume that you should get those, since that's in line with Beast Shape II's mechanics.

It's made more complicated when you look at the Tiger form though. It gives you the enhanced movement and grab ability of the Dire Tiger, as well as everything else you would get form Beast Shape II. Spelled out right there so you don't have to look it up (aside from natural attacks and size). Is there a reason it mentions all the abilities you get in Tiger form, but leaves things out of the Bear form? Is Bear Form not supposed to have grab?

Most likely this is just an error, but it definitely needs clarification.

What I think the FAQ team forgot is that Claws only get two attacks, even with full BAB.

If that's the case, a one-sentence Errata to the Shifter would fix the class... and would stop us all (or most of us) from trying to 'pile on natural attacks' via items. With a two-sentence errata we could also increase the threat range for the claws as the shifter goes up level... 18-20/x2 claws with the wounding property or vorpal property at higher levels would be cool...

Agree with Brew Bird. Some of the animals merely restate what BS2 gives, in which case it seems pretty clear how they function. But some of them will omit features and it's hard to tell if that omission is intentional or not, especially given that some other forms delay access to certain BS2 abilities.

It's not too hard to figure out intent for the most part, but it does require you to interpret the rules one way for one form and another way for another form, which is messy.

Shifting gears, can anyone else take a look at the Star Watcher Investigator and tell me if I'm missing something? Because this archetype seems like it gives up a lot of power and flexibility in its first feature and doesn't earn back all that much.

Not being able to identify potions is minor. Not getting a bonus to craft checks is also minor, but slightly less so. Losing out on alchemist talents sucks quite a bit though and having to pick the targets of your spells when you prepare them and needing the target to be present to do so feels pretty brutal.

And in exchange... you essentially get the infusion talent for free (with that restriction) and instead of trapfinding you're really good at sense motive and geography.

The talents are nice, especially ranged spell combat and precognition, but even so those are still talents.

It just really feels like the archetype gives up a lot and then if you want to get anything out of it you have to give up even more.

I think the issue they have is that they don't want you doing +10 damage on an attack at level 10. What I think the FAQ team forgot is that Claws only get two attacks, even with full BAB.

As it is, it's powerful enough to make up for the lack of iterative attacks. The worst part is that if you're really using a Dex build, you'd probably try to have a +10 Dex mod by level 14. So Dex-To-Damage would actually just be a better ability than "Dex-to-hit and half-level-to-damage".

Like Mark mentioned, currently as written the feat explodes the vigilante's Lethal Grace out of the water (and vigilante talents are supposed to be stronger than feats balance-wise). Basically, this cements Shifter's Grace as a feat tax for Str-based shifters—if left unchanged, it would be the only way to play the class. The feat was designed to help Dex shifters better keep pace with Str-based ones, not as a buff to Str-based shifters.

Additionally, Shifter's Edge is better for shifters then, say, an agile amulet of mighty fists in situations where you want to be Dex-based and using an Aspect that is Medium or Large. Basically, Medium and Large shapes tend to offer Strength bonuses when you're wild shaped, and many of their universal monster abilities are Strength-dependent (like the monkey aspect's rend ability at 15th-level).

This isn't to say that Shifter's Edge is designed to be mandatory, nor is it inherently better (or worse) then wearing an agile amulet of might fists. The feat was designed to support a very specific kind of play style with very specific animal forms. Your mileage may vary.

Could we get a Feat Tax for Shifters that want to have 'fully functional' Wild Shape, perhaps something like 'Can Haz Drood Wyld Shape'? or something?

I know this has probably been asked, but it is a big thread and I don't have the book yet. How much has the wood element for Kineticist been improved?

well, they get their proper basic phytokinesis power. thats certainly a plus. and now the wood element does seem to have its own identity, rather than feeling like a not as good earth. most of the leg work was done by psychic anthology, but its still good. also there is a Laser-esqe infusion for wood that lets positive energy deal some damage to normal targets, normal damage to undead, and extra damage to creatures vulnerable to sunlight.

there are some other bits, but it is a solid choice for certain builds and styles.

It is all reprints and I did notice some nerfing with the brachiation utility wild talent other then that it is fine. I am happy to finally see the basic phytokinesis in print plus they added a detect plants ability to the list of what it can do.

What type of content does Ultimate Wilderness have for fey campaigns, or campaigns visiting the First World?

I've been reading of the discussions back and forth regarding the shapechanger class, and I'm actually not that concerned, as I'll likely use the Skinchanger from Legendary Games, which is pretty much on the nose EXACTLY what I want out of a shapechanger class.

But I'm interested in learning if there's enough interesting fey content to justify purchasing the book as a PDF.

There's a section of the "Mastering the Wild" chapter on the First World which includes some stuff like hazards, haunts, and other things, but it's a total of 6 pages. Apart from that there's only a smattering of Fey-related material. You'd be better off looking at the Campaign Setting book that came out a while back.

What type of content does Ultimate Wilderness have for fey campaigns, or campaigns visiting the First World?

I've been reading of the discussions back and forth regarding the shapechanger class, and I'm actually not that concerned, as I'll likely use the Skinchanger from Legendary Games, which is pretty much on the nose EXACTLY what I want out of a shapechanger class.

But I'm interested in learning if there's enough interesting fey content to justify purchasing the book as a PDF.

Can you imagine what would happen in the US if suddenly all the speed limit signs on the Interstate were changed to read "100 kph"?

Can you imagine what would happen in the US if suddenly all the speed limit signs on the Interstate were changed to read "100 kph"?

The police would have a field day with speeding tickets.

Ed Reppert wrote:

Can you imagine what would happen in the US if suddenly all the speed limit signs on the Interstate were changed to read "100 kph"?

The police would have a field day with speeding tickets.

Yep.

Coroners too.

As much as I am (highly) disappointed in the shifter, and a few other issues, I still find this book more useful then Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures.

I am highly disappointed in the Shifter. It seems like a class that was bathed in praise internally from day one, and was never given the necessary, thorough bathing of constructive criticism that makes things great.

What I don't understand is why the Shifter got full BAB but no kind of way to utilize it for attacks. Nat attacks don't benefit from high BAB, at least as far as iteratives are concerned. Why didn't Shifter get a kind of Wild Flurry like the Menhir Guardian got?

I probably have most of the Players Companion books that were added into this compilation, but at first read through this book is filled with tons of toys for GMs and players. I really dig it.

Don't understand all of the complaints one bit.

I probably have most of the Players Companion books that were added into this compilation, but at first read through this book is filled with tons of toys for GMs and players. I really dig it.

Don't understand all of the complaints one bit.

Severely overselling the Shifter, the main reason most people bought this book.

Brother Fen wrote:

I probably have most of the Players Companion books that were added into this compilation, but at first read through this book is filled with tons of toys for GMs and players. I really dig it.

Don't understand all of the complaints one bit.

Severely overselling the Shifter, the main reason most people bought this book.

Citation needed.

Alchemaic wrote:

Brother Fen wrote:

I probably have most of the Players Companion books that were added into this compilation, but at first read through this book is filled with tons of toys for GMs and players. I really dig it.

Don't understand all of the complaints one bit.

Severely overselling the Shifter, the main reason most people bought this book.

Citation needed.

Citation:

Lots of people talking about the new class doesn’t mean it was the main draw for everyone. I don’t care for shapechanging so I was indifferent to the Shifter. The Archetypes however made me interested.

Coroners too.

Every mortician in the USA would be standing beside the local highway rubbing their hands together so hard in glee over the expected business that the friction would be raising sparks.

I really like the two new spells that allow sorcerers and wizards to shapeshift other people and that permit the person it's cast on to change their own form while the spell lasts. The new spell for 'turn into a magical beast' spell is fun too.

Pity they're both limited to only sorcerers and wizards but no sense getting greedy.

I really like the two new spells that allow sorcerers and wizards to shapeshift other people and that permit the person it's cast on to change their own form while the spell lasts. The new spell for 'turn into a magical beast' spell is fun too.

Pity they're both limited to only sorcerers and wizards but no sense getting greedy.

Two spells better than a class for shapeshifting. Go, wizards, go!

Alchemaic wrote:

Brother Fen wrote:

I probably have most of the Players Companion books that were added into this compilation, but at first read through this book is filled with tons of toys for GMs and players. I really dig it.

Don't understand all of the complaints one bit.

Severely overselling the Shifter, the main reason most people bought this book.

Citation needed.

Well....there is the large number of people expressing disappointment....as well as a smaller number of people making obvious excuses....(ranging from "make your own class"...through...."it's a beginners class, and as such is OK as is")....IMO that counts as citation....but YMMV of course..... ???

Keep in mind I have zero problems with people liking the book.....I only have problem with people who like the book trying to dismiss those that are disappointed in the book ;)

Lots of people talking about the new class doesn’t mean it was the main draw for everyone. I don’t care for shapechanging so I was indifferent to the Shifter. The Archetypes however made me interested.

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

If you don't care for shapeshifting, then it's understandable that you are not very disappointed....and that's grand. As long as you don't attempt to minimize or dismiss those that are ;)

The issue is sample size. The majority of people who've posted in this thread? Possible. The majority of people who purchased the book? Unverified.

It's in our nature to assume that because we feel a certain way, that's the majority opinion. Actually proving it, though, is a bit more complicated.

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

How many individual posters are there in this thread that have offered an opinion? I'm guessing 25-100, just as a very loose estimate.

Do you think that includes all of the people buying the book? Do you think it includes a majority of the buyers? Even without Paizo's production numbers in front of me, I can guarantee you that it isn't.

As such, it's hardly a "no-brainer", as you put it. This is a sample of the subset of customers dedicated enough to use the forums. It can't be said to be statistically reliable - at best, it's a data point.

The issue is sample size. The majority of people who've posted in this thread? Possible. The majority of people who purchased the book? Unverified.

It's in our nature to assume that because we feel a certain way, that's the majority opinion. Actually proving it, though, is a bit more complicated.

Also....when all is said and done....those that choose not to comment....are irrelevant. If the majority of the people who choose to comment....are disappointed....then that's the viewpoint that is actionable.

I fully understand that people are more likely to comment when they are displeased (I owned a store for many years....it's far easier to get complaints than compliments).....that said.....the only actionable items are those that get feedback ;)

nighttree wrote:

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

How many individual posters are there in this thread that have offered an opinion? I'm guessing 25-100, just as a very loose estimate.

Do you think that includes all of the people buying the book? Do you think it includes a majority of the buyers? Even without Paizo's production numbers in front of me, I can guarantee you that it isn't.

As such, it's hardly a "no-brainer", as you put it. This is a sample of the subset of customers dedicated enough to use the forums. It can't be said to be statistically reliable - at best, it's a data point.

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

Also....when all is said and done....those that choose not to comment....are irrelevant.

The hell you say.

Kalindlara wrote:

nighttree wrote:

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

How many individual posters are there in this thread that have offered an opinion? I'm guessing 25-100, just as a very loose estimate.

Do you think that includes all of the people buying the book? Do you think it includes a majority of the buyers? Even without Paizo's production numbers in front of me, I can guarantee you that it isn't.

As such, it's hardly a "no-brainer", as you put it. This is a sample of the subset of customers dedicated enough to use the forums. It can't be said to be statistically reliable - at best, it's a data point.

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

I read it as implying that most of the people who buy this book don't actually frequent the forums here. If that was the sum total of the people buying books from Paizo, they would be out of business in a week.

nighttree wrote:

Also....when all is said and done....those that choose not to comment....are irrelevant.

The hell you say.

ROFLMAO.....well if your not willing to speak up....then yes, the hell I say ;)

Kalindlara wrote:

nighttree wrote:

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

How many individual posters are there in this thread that have offered an opinion? I'm guessing 25-100, just as a very loose estimate.

Do you think that includes all of the people buying the book? Do you think it includes a majority of the buyers? Even without Paizo's production numbers in front of me, I can guarantee you that it isn't.

As such, it's hardly a "no-brainer", as you put it. This is a sample of the subset of customers dedicated enough to use the forums. It can't be said to be statistically reliable - at best, it's a data point.

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

As a self-published author? Yes. The vast, vast majority of people don't comment one way or another.

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

That's almost definitely true. The vast majority of Pathfinder players I know don't frequent the forums or do so only very irregularly, and all of the FLGS' within driving distance of my house sold out of Ultimate Wilderness very quickly, with tables full of people oohing and ahhing over the shifter. It was very similar during convention season where people from all over the country were talking about how strong and awesome the kineticist was at PFS events. The realities of the casual market can differ quite a bit from those of the forum communities. Even a quick head count comparing posters in the Paizo forums to various sales numbers shows that only a fraction of a fraction of the people who play actually post.

I think the biggest issue is that the premise and inspirations of the class weren't communicated very well. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only information we got seemed to be "full BAB with shapeshifting powers" and "nature paladin", which the class does give, but not in a way that met everyone's expectations.

Given that the shifter exists in a pretty crowded field of 1pp and 3pp shapechanging options, everyone assumed they'd get the ultimate shapeshifter, a full BAB master of many forms. What was actually produced was a high floor, low ceiling entry based on inspirations like Beorn from The Hobbit or Norse hamrammr and ulfhednar, which the class does a pretty solid job of embodying and which is reasonably competitive with classes like barbarian and slayer. If there had been more communication up front about the goals and inspirations for the class, there probably would have been significantly fewer people disappointed with the end result.

nighttree wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

nighttree wrote:

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

How many individual posters are there in this thread that have offered an opinion? I'm guessing 25-100, just as a very loose estimate.

Do you think that includes all of the people buying the book? Do you think it includes a majority of the buyers? Even without Paizo's production numbers in front of me, I can guarantee you that it isn't.

As such, it's hardly a "no-brainer", as you put it. This is a sample of the subset of customers dedicated enough to use the forums. It can't be said to be statistically reliable - at best, it's a data point.

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

I read it as implying that most of the people who buy this book don't actually frequent the forums here. If that was the sum total of the people buying books from Paizo, they would be out of business in a week.

I read it as implying that most people who buy the books don't bother to express their opinions of the books.

If that's the case, that's fine.....but if you have an opinion.....express it :P

nighttree wrote:

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

That's almost definitely true. The vast majority of Pathfinder players I know don't frequent the forums or do so only very irregularly, and all of the FLGS' within driving distance of my house sold out of Ultimate Wilderness very quickly, with tables full of people oohing and ahhing over the shifter. It was very similar during convention season where people from all over the country were talking about how strong and awesome the kineticist was at PFS events. The realities of the casual market can differ quite a bit from those of the forum communities. Even a quick head count comparing posters in the Paizo forums to various sales numbers shows that only a fraction of a fraction of the people who play actually post.

I think the biggest issue is that the premise and inspirations of the class weren't communicated very well. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only information we got seemed to be "full BAB with shapeshifting powers" and "nature paladin", which the class does give, but not in a way that met everyone's expectations.

Given that the shifter exists in a pretty crowded field of 1pp and 3pp shapechanging options, everyone assumed they'd get the ultimate shapeshifter, a full BAB master of many forms. What was actually produced was a high floor, low ceiling entry based on inspirations like Beorn from The Hobbit or Norse hamrammr and ulfhednar, which the class does a pretty solid job of embodying and which is reasonably competitive with classes like barbarian and slayer. If there had been more communication up front about the goals and inspirations for the class, there probably would have been significantly fewer people disappointed with the end result.

Hit the nail.

nighttree wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

nighttree wrote:

It's actually a "no brainer" from the responses over the last few weeks that the Shifter was the main attraction.

How many individual posters are there in this thread that have offered an opinion? I'm guessing 25-100, just as a very loose estimate.

Do you think that includes all of the people buying the book? Do you think it includes a majority of the buyers? Even without Paizo's production numbers in front of me, I can guarantee you that it isn't.

As such, it's hardly a "no-brainer", as you put it. This is a sample of the subset of customers dedicated enough to use the forums. It can't be said to be statistically reliable - at best, it's a data point.

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

That's almost definitely true. The vast majority of Pathfinder players I know don't frequent the forums or do so only very irregularly, and all of the FLGS' within driving distance of my house sold out of Ultimate Wilderness very quickly, with tables full of people oohing and ahhing over the shifter.

I think the biggest issue is that the premise and inspirations of the class weren't communicated very well. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only information we got seemed to be "full BAB with shapeshifting powers" and "nature paladin", which the class does give, but not in a way that met everyone's expectations.

Given that the shifter exists in a pretty crowded field of 1pp and 3pp shapechanging options, everyone assumed they'd get the ultimate shapeshifter, a full BAB master of many forms. What was actually produced was a high floor, low ceiling entry based on inspirations like Beorn from The Hobbit or Norse hamrammr and ulfhednar, which the class does a pretty solid job of embodying. If there had been more communication up front about the goals and inspirations for the class, there probably would have been significantly fewer people disappointed with the end result.

I'm trying to move away from my "expectations" over the last year (that boat has sailed so to speak)....and just looking at what role the class is obviously designed to fill....it still fall's very short of that....IMO.

When all is said and done, I'm OK with the direction they took the class in....I would just like to see it fill that role in a way I'm willing to use. Currently, the only use I can see for the class is Lycanthrope concepts with the Weretouched Archetype. That's the only character concept I can imagine using the class for.

And I can't say that about a single class they have developed.

All in all, the only thing that can be read from all this with some accuracy is that:

A) Most people assumed that the Shifter would be a shape-changing machine from first level on, better at it than any other class; they assumed that because that was the impression they got from the developers and designers as they discussed this class over the months between announcement and delivery.

B)Those who were expecting that would be mostly disappointed given the actual structure and abilities of the class.

C)Any for whom the main reason for buying a fairly expensive book was not wilderness campaign rules but to get a Paizo published shape-shifting class would be quite upset given A) and B).

D)Upset people tend to be more vocal than those who are content.

That's it. Whether a book titled Ultimate Wilderness will upset a person just picking it up and finding the new class is called a Shifter and isn't all about shape-shifting is questionable IMHO. How many people are like that out there and what percentage they might represent? Who knows?

The people making these claims might be right in assuming that most people ARE in fact upset with the book. But they might not be. We don't have enough data to draw an accurate conclusion.

Ssalarn wrote:

nighttree wrote:

Are you implying that most buyers don't comment ?

That's almost definitely true. The vast majority of Pathfinder players I know don't frequent the forums or do so only very irregularly, and all of the FLGS' within driving distance of my house sold out of Ultimate Wilderness very quickly, with tables full of people oohing and ahhing over the shifter. It was very similar during convention season where people from all over the country were talking about how strong and awesome the kineticist was at PFS events. The realities of the casual market can differ quite a bit from those of the forum communities. Even a quick head count comparing posters in the Paizo forums to various sales numbers shows that only a fraction of a fraction of the people who play actually post.

I think the biggest issue is that the premise and inspirations of the class weren't communicated very well. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only information we got seemed to be "full BAB with shapeshifting powers" and "nature paladin", which the class does give, but not in a way that met everyone's expectations.

Given that the shifter exists in a pretty crowded field of 1pp and 3pp shapechanging options, everyone assumed they'd get the ultimate shapeshifter, a full BAB master of many forms. What was actually produced was a high floor, low ceiling entry based on inspirations like Beorn from The Hobbit or Norse hamrammr and ulfhednar, which the class does a pretty solid job of embodying and which is reasonably competitive with classes like barbarian and slayer. If there had been more communication up front about the goals and inspirations for the class, there probably would have been significantly fewer people disappointed with the end result.

Hit the nail.

Very possibly true. I honestly don't feel the class comes even close to what was hyped....but perhaps my perception of what was hyped was not what they were trying to hype.

That said...I see very little use for the class as it is.

Further clarification on my opinion of all this: it all comes down to a small marketing blunder. Like Rysky and others have stated on the boards before me, had a reasonable idea of where they were going with the class been presented it wouldn't have caused such a crack-up.

Would people still be disappointed with the class? Yes: quite a few people have noted that they believe the class is not up to snuff even representing the shifting angle Paizo took with it. But that would have been design criticism and most people would then have moved on to the rest of the book.

Of course this is just my opinion based on what I am seeing here. If you are unhappy with the book, be unhappy with it! You have every right to be unhappy, just as those of us who really like the book have every right to be happy.

Lots of people talking about the new class doesn’t mean it was the main draw for everyone. I don’t care for shapechanging so I was indifferent to the Shifter. The Archetypes however made me interested.

People who are unhappy about something are far more likely to say something about it than people who are happy will. And people who are unhappy will also complain TO more people.

That doesn't mean that more people are unhappy. Just that unhappy people are more vocal about it, statistically.

Rysky wrote:

Lots of people talking about the new class doesn’t mean it was the main draw for everyone. I don’t care for shapechanging so I was indifferent to the Shifter. The Archetypes however made me interested.

People who are unhappy about something are far more likely to say something about it than people who are happy will. And people who are unhappy will also complain TO more people.

That doesn't mean that more people are unhappy. Just that unhappy people are more vocal about it, statistically.

Additionally, with all the rather heated language going on in this thread and others regarding the shifter and the rest of the book, many of those that might have wanted to comment may have decided not to wade into the drek storm.

that tends to make the threads a little polarized with very vocal unhappy people, a smaller number of happy or satisfied people asking what the problem is, and a lot of lurkers wishing that the signal to noise ratio was a bit better.

Additionally, with all the rather heated language going on in this thread and others regarding the shifter and the rest of the book, many of those that might have wanted to comment may have decided not to wade into the drek storm.

This was me, for the entire time that I was waiting for the launch day. I chose to poke my head out anyway because I remember James Jacobs saying a while back that the constant negativity on the site was getting to him, and I promised at the time to try to make the site more welcoming.

You can express your displeasure with something without being rude or a jerk. I want to be clear... I'm not happy with how the Shifter turned out, but I don't think it's horrible. The communication about it was skewed by differing expectations, and mis-interpretation. But I respect the sheer amount of time and effort that went into the book, and want to compliment the authors on all the stuff I did enjoy.

I'm largely on the same page as Benjamin. Only the opportunity to talk about my own contributions even lured me out of my shell.

I usually don't comment, but with this book I had to give some feedback. My whole group found it very poorly made. It has some quality material but the part we use the most was far from our expectations.

Not only the shifter is basically unsalvageable, but most archetypes and feats are useless or subpar. There is hardly anything we want to use from what we got from the book. People are complaining in hope to get better products in the future and to let the designers behind the book know how they feel about it.

I think the biggest issue is that the premise and inspirations of the class weren't communicated very well.

That's putting it mildly. Some of the pre-release information, along with the class' own fluff writeup in the book, are entirely at odds with the finished product.

That said, I think trying to deflect the whole thing into a communications problem feels disingenuous. Yes, there was hype around the class and yes it failed to live up to the hype. Hype aside however it's still a bland, exceptionally mediocre class with an extremely narrow focus, trap options and limited build variety that struggles to stay competitive at higher levels and sports multiple archetypes with editing errors and noticeable design problems.

Going on about mismanaged expectations and silent majorities just comes across as a rhetorical trick designed to deflect away from actual issues. You can do better.