Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

Alexander, I think you meant "sage" not "saga" familiar archetype though a "sega" familiar archetype sounds interesting as well;)

Alexander, I think you meant "sage" not "saga" familiar archetype though a "sega" familiar archetype sounds interesting as well;)

You can only take that familiar archetype with a hedgehog, flying fox, or echidna familiar.

Dragon78 wrote:

Alexander, I think you meant "sage" not "saga" familiar archetype though a "sega" familiar archetype sounds interesting as well;)

You can only take that familiar archetype with a hedgehog, flying fox, or echidna familiar.

I think a later source allowed bats, too, but the master had to be evil.

I'm just kind of amused by how polarized the reviews have been. I grinned a bit when I saw the 1-star and 5-star reviews had balanced out perfectly to give it a 3-star rating (though the scales have since tipped slightly).

I'm just kind of amused by how polarized the reviews have been. I grinned a bit when I saw the 1-star and 5-star reviews had balanced out perfectly to give it a 3-star rating (though the scales have since tipped slightly).

As a scientist before being a game designer, I'm a hardcore data nerd, so I couldn't help but see the parallels with the intriguing and unusual movie review split on An Inconvenient Sequel (fivethirtyeight link).

The similarities include the polarization but also the fact that it built up lots of reviews before full release (it already has almost as many as some much older books, and more than others).

Mmmm... Noob question: can I apply Improved Natural Attack to the shifter's claws?

Mmmm... Noob question: can I apply Improved Natural Attack to the shifter's claws?

Hopefully, since at least one of the shifter's animal forms gets Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat. (unless I am mistaken)

As a scientist before being a game designer, I'm a hardcore data nerd

[Quick Thread Hi-Jack]

Now I'm curious...what field of science?

[/End Thread Hi-Jack]

Mark Seifter wrote:

As a scientist before being a game designer, I'm a hardcore data nerd

[Quick Thread Hi-Jack]

Now I'm curious...what field of science?

[/End Thread Hi-Jack]

PhD candidate in the sciency side of computer science (AI, language, cognition and such). Even after these years of game design, it still seems that the videos of my lectures from MIT are still just as popular as my paizo stuff. But no more threadjacking!

Actually I went digging some more into this because I've never actually seen any rules for allowing Bluff to imitate voices, and that's because there isn't.

You're correct. There were no hard rules for this mechanic before UW, but that's what I'm lamenting.

Paizo has a tendency to take corner cases with no clear rules interactions like these and introduce rules for them, but do so in the form of feats. This takes something that may have in the past been a very niche issue you'd adjudicate with your GM and now locks it away behind a wall that I wager most people won't be willing to pay given how limited a commodity feats are these days.

Which is a shame in my book, because this feels like something that doesn't need to be a feat in the first place.

I was looking at the elementalist shifter and noticed it doesn’t replace the 20th level ability of final aspect. That seams like it is an oversight as I don’t know how it works with the archetype.

Edit: looking more into it this applys to all the shifter archetypes.

Rysky wrote:

Actually I went digging some more into this because I've never actually seen any rules for allowing Bluff to imitate voices, and that's because there isn't.

You're correct. There were no hard rules for this mechanic before UW, but that's what I'm lamenting.

Paizo has a tendency to take corner cases with no clear rules interactions like these and introduce rules for them, but do so in the form of feats. This takes something that may have in the past been a very niche issue you'd adjudicate with your GM and now locks it away behind a wall that I wager most people won't be willing to pay given how limited a commodity feats are these days.

Which is a shame in my book, because this feels like something that doesn't need to be a feat in the first place.

It's not like adding new uses for skills is impossible or something too, this book alone adds several. Plus previous player companions (the one that sticks out to me is Spymaster's Handbook) added a bunch of handy skill uses that were only locked behind being in a PDF not everyone might read.

I'm just kind of amused by how polarized the reviews have been. I grinned a bit when I saw the 1-star and 5-star reviews had balanced out perfectly to give it a 3-star rating (though the scales have since tipped slightly).

Does make me wonder how many of the 1 and 5-star reviews are being made just to counterbalance the 5 and 1-star reviews.

Rysky wrote:

Actually I went digging some more into this because I've never actually seen any rules for allowing Bluff to imitate voices, and that's because there isn't.

You're correct. There were no hard rules for this mechanic before UW, but that's what I'm lamenting.

Paizo has a tendency to take corner cases with no clear rules interactions like these and introduce rules for them, but do so in the form of feats. This takes something that may have in the past been a very niche issue you'd adjudicate with your GM and now locks it away behind a wall that I wager most people won't be willing to pay given how limited a commodity feats are these days.

Which is a shame in my book, because this feels like something that doesn't need to be a feat in the first place.

I’d say what it’s capable of qualifies it for a Feat, since you could only readily replicate the sound of a T-Rex with a spell otherwise. The flavor of the Feat is that you’ve spent so long among certain areas that you can perfectly mimic the sounds of all the animals there in.

As for finally nailing down a rule I can’t really fault them for that either, especially when it’s not an unwritten rule that everyone agrees on, but a “come up with a rule when it occurs” situation that there wasn’t a consensus on.

Or you can just buy an Animal Call (from the ACG) for 1 sp, keyed to a T-Rex. If you really need to be able to get an animal call at-will, spend the feat on Brilliant Planner to be able to pull an appropriate call out when you need it, and the feat does other stuff too.

Lemartes wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

As a scientist before being a game designer, I'm a hardcore data nerd

[Quick Thread Hi-Jack]

Now I'm curious...what field of science?

[/End Thread Hi-Jack]

PhD candidate in the sciency side of computer science (AI, language, cognition and such). Even after these years of game design, it still seems that the videos of my lectures from MIT are still just as popular as my paizo stuff. But no more threadjacking!

Ha cool. Found some of the vids. Might have to watch a bit. Thanks. :)

On another note to officially end the thread jack...who was involved in the Rage Shifter archetype and what was the overall goal with that archetype? How did it perform in play testing? Thanks to whomever. ;)

Or you can just buy an Animal Call (from the ACG) for 1 sp, keyed to a T-Rex. If you really need to be able to get an animal call at-will, spend the feat on Brilliant Planner to be able to pull an appropriate call out when you need it, and the feat does other stuff too.

*looks up item*

Not the same thing, since all that item does is give you a +2 to Survival to track the animal it is modeled after (what?) or “get along in the wild” (what?).

The Feat would let you mimic a T-Rex roar and scare the everliving s!%@ out of some guards. Or goats.

Alchemaic wrote:

Or you can just buy an Animal Call (from the ACG) for 1 sp, keyed to a T-Rex. If you really need to be able to get an animal call at-will, spend the feat on Brilliant Planner to be able to pull an appropriate call out when you need it, and the feat does other stuff too.

*looks up item*

Not the same thing, since all that item does is give you a +2 to Survival to track the animal it is modeled after (what?) or “get along in the wild” (what?).

The Feat would let you mimic a T-Rex roar and scare the everliving s#+! out of some guards. Or goats.

Which the call also does, since the call generates the same noise as the feat. The feat just has a failure possibility, while the call doesn't

The feat's actually kind of weird, since yes you can generate the sound, but it doesn't actually give you any use out of it. Like being able to mimic an animal to throw something of your trail (like the Burglar Rogue's Distraction ability) or beckon a similar animal over. So you've got to convince your GM that the noise you're making is doing whatever it is you're trying to do. I have to assume that sort of thing is the intent, but the feat itself is just missing it.

The Feat is very open ended in what all you can do with it, which would rely on how well you roll and your GM’s adjudication. The item mimics a specific animal call... that gives you a bonus to track said animal. Somehow.

Dragon78 wrote:

Alexander, I think you meant "sage" not "saga" familiar archetype though a "sega" familiar archetype sounds interesting as well;)

You can only take that familiar archetype with a hedgehog, flying fox, or echidna familiar.

It's amazing that Pathfinder's come so far that this joke works.

I love the Sylvan Trickster archetype. Can someone in the know -- a contributor, editor, designer -- let us know if the Rogue can count her Rogue levels as witch levels while using her Hexes? Please? I'm assuming that you can, but it doesn't exactly specify.

The Feat is very open ended in what all you can do with it, which would rely on how well you roll and your GM’s adjudication.

So... it's a Disguise/Bluff check? That you now can't use without the feat?

Wonderful design, this...

So overall not bad. Kinda wish Gathlains were tiny though. Playable pixie-esque PC would be awesome and Small is just too big to really pull that off even if they otherwise fit the aesthetic.

Biggest disappointment though for me is the Commando Gunslinger. Archetype is thematically cool and trades away a lot of utility skills for other flavorful utility skills in a balanced fashion. And then you hit the end of the archetype and find out it loses gun training and the whole thing falls apart.

Star Watcher is another one that bugged me. Feels like you give up a lot in its modified alchemy and don't really gain a lot anywhere else, though knowledge for sense motive is cool. There are a few archetypes like that though.

Otherwise thought the book was okay. I like Ice Chemist (though I wish it was bigger), Fiendflesh Shifter (though I wish it was bigger), Sharptooth (though the numbers on ocean breath and swim like fish feel conservative), Venomfist, the kineticist archetypes.. etc.

I love the Sylvan Trickster archetype. Can someone in the know -- a contributor, editor, designer -- let us know if the Rogue can count her Rogue levels as witch levels while using her Hexes? Please? I'm assuming that you can, but it doesn't exactly specify.

I feel like we need a general rule somewhere on this.

Rysky wrote:

The Feat is very open ended in what all you can do with it, which would rely on how well you roll and your GM’s adjudication.

So... it's a Disguise/Bluff check? That you now can't use without the feat?

Wonderful design, this...

Without the feat, you would use Disguise and take significant penalties for physical differences. With the feat, it is a Bluff check (more common skill) and doesn't face those penalties.

Publishing the feat doesn't negate the previous use of the Disguise skill. The feat just makes you better at it (and uses a better skill).

Rysky wrote:

The Feat is very open ended in what all you can do with it, which would rely on how well you roll and your GM’s adjudication.

So... it's a Disguise/Bluff check? That you now can't use without the feat?

Wonderful design, this...

You can use Disguise without the Feat, and that has been the official rule for disguising your voice since the Ultimate Intrigue clarification*. This Feat lets you use Bluff to disguise your voice.

*before this clarification there was no rule nor consensus on what skill you used to disguise your voice.

Edit: ninjaed more succinctly by King.

I'm just glad no one gave King Mogaru levels in Cavalier so he can't do Green Knight... ;)

I'm just glad no one gave King Mogaru levels in Cavalier so he can't do Green Knight... ;)

BRB, know who the BBEG will be will be in next campaign.

Now you make think I'm joking, and I am, but what is really concerning is that was actually more than half-serious, there's an actual chance I'm going to do this

I'm glad I got people inspired. :)

Hello, new user, and welcome to the forums! ^_^

Jinkies!

Scratch what I said abouve about the Commando, misread it. It's cool.

So... do we use the fire damage or the acid damage this time?

The Gathlain doesn't seem to have it's type listed. Anyone see it?

It isn't listed anywhere but the bestiary entry. It's a fey. I really have to wonder why it is STILL not listed anywhere else....

A nature themed book and not even one illustration of a Catfolk. Much disappoint, such sad.

A nature themed book and not even one illustration of a Catfolk. Much disappoint, such sad.

Yes... But there is a feat that lets you turn ANYONE into a catgirl if you want.

Caleb Garofalo wrote:

A nature themed book and not even one illustration of a Catfolk. Much disappoint, such sad.

Yes... But there is a feat that lets you turn ANYONE into a catgirl if you want.

Orc catgirls? Sure.
Tangu catgirls? Sure (but what does that even look like?)
I think thats what the feat does at least.

I think it may also have mechanical benefits, just as a little icing on the cake. ^_^

It would have been cool if granted a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against rodent based animals, humanoids, and magical beast;)

Tengu catgirls? Sure (but what does that even look like?)

A blur, since it spends most of it's time reflexively chasing itself.

Ditto for Ysoki/ratfolk cat-girls.

J4RH34D wrote:

Tengu catgirls? Sure (but what does that even look like?)

A blur, since it spends most of it's time reflexively chasing itself.

Ditto for Ysoki/ratfolk cat-girls.

Tom is Jerry.

Almonihah wrote:

I'm just kind of amused by how polarized the reviews have been. I grinned a bit when I saw the 1-star and 5-star reviews had balanced out perfectly to give it a 3-star rating (though the scales have since tipped slightly).

As a scientist before being a game designer, I'm a hardcore data nerd, so I couldn't help but see the parallels with the intriguing and unusual movie review split on An Inconvenient Sequel (fivethirtyeight link).

The similarities include the polarization but also the fact that it built up lots of reviews before full release (it already has almost as many as some much older books, and more than others).

I actually did some Machine Learning research during my undergraduate years...

Anyway, sort-of back on track, how many other releases have had similar review distributions? Is Ultimate Wilderness the most divisive release in Paizo history, or are there other books that have done likewise?

We're not allowed to talk about the other ones in this thread, because it adds several dozen pages of back-and-forth that the moderators have to clean up.

There have been a few significant issues in the past with releases, to say the least.

We're not allowed to talk about the other ones in this thread, because it adds several dozen pages of back-and-forth that the moderators have to clean up.

There have been a few significant issues in the past with releases, to say the least.

...I don't think I have seen this level of broad scale disappointment however......

...I don't think I have seen this level of broad scale disappointment however......

That's because you have that piece of metal covering your eyes.

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HAHAHAHAHA! THAT WAS A GOOD ONE, WASN'T IT!

In other news, Ultimate Magic and ACG are both rated lower than UW, Ultimate Combat is about the same.

Rated lower, yes. However, it feels like there's almost a war going on between the 5 star reviews and the 1 star ones. The book isn't perfect, by any means, but neither is it worthless. I think that a lot of the reviews (especially some of the positive ones) are intentionally exaggerating the book's good points while ignoring its shortcomings, in order to artificially inflate the rating. UM and the ACG don't have that quite as much.

Rated lower, yes. However, it feels like there's almost a war going on between the 5 star reviews and the 1 star ones. The book isn't perfect, by any means, but neither is it worthless. I think that a lot of the reviews (especially some of the positive ones) are intentionally exaggerating the book's good points while ignoring its shortcomings, in order to artificially inflate the rating. UM and the ACG don't have that quite as much.

I didn't ignore anything, just for me, as a DM, there are sections of the book which I just don't pay as much attention to. Shifter is one of them. Maybe, if the PDF was 40 USD, I'd be edgy that I'm paying too much for material I don't need, but at 10 bucks? No reason to complain.

Rated lower, yes. However, it feels like there's almost a war going on between the 5 star reviews and the 1 star ones.

I believe it's the difference between people appreciating the forest or people that wanted that one tree.