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This is a question about optimization...
what weapon will give me the most damage for a two-handed strength build melee combatant. I need great damage with a great balance of crit chance/multiplier.
I was thinking Greatsword due to possible 12 base damage with an average crit chance/multiplier.
Then again Scythe is okay damage with a awesome crit multiplier but only on a nat 20. 19-20 with keen still seems like a heavy investment for low returns in crit chance.
any thoughts?
Basically, it depends on your damage bonuses. The bigger they get, the more the crit range of the weapon matters and the less the base damage of the weapon matters. If you have +50 damage, the falchion blows the greatsword out of the water. If you have +0 damage, it's the other way around.
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Care to go into detail Mongoose?
The greatsword has higher base damage, but the falchion threatens critical hits more. The greatsword has an average of 7 damage per hit without extra modifiers, the falchion has 5. However, the falchion has a 15% chance to threaten a critical while the greatsword has only a 10%. Since criticals factor in your Strength, weapon enhancements, etc, they get better as you get more modifiers. Thus, when you have lower Strength and such, you want a greatsword so as to get the most out of regular hits, and when you have higher bonuses to damage, you want a falchion because it will benefit you a lot more when you crit.
stuff!
A better elaboration than I would have been able to give; I'll only add that I know I've seen a thread on these forums in the past delving into the math about it if you want to do some digging and find it.
One such thread was about whether or not the falcata is too good of a weapon -- I can't remember if the math is directly in that thread or in posts linked from that thread, but if you're curious at what point damage bonus tips the scales, gaming math nerds (and I mean that in the most affectionate way) have already done the work for you.
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If we're on the subject of math, I should probably give an example involving math.
A Man in Black has kindly provided a formula for DPR (damage per round) calculations in this thread. If you don't want to read that thread, here's the formula:
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
So, let's plug it in for a 5th level Two-Handed Fighter from the APG, to whom I will refer as Bob the Basher. Bob has 21 Strength (17 base+2 racial+1 level+1 item) and a +1 Greatsword. This means his bonus to hit (with his Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Weapon Training factored in) is +11. According to the monster creation section of the Bestiary, a CR 5 monster should have 18 AC. Thus, Bob hits on anything 7 or higher, which works out to a 70% chance to hit. Because he has the Overhand Chop class feature, Bob gets to apply double his Strength modifier on damage for a total of +10, and since his weapon is two-handed, Power Attack provides +6 damage, Weapon Training provides +1 damage, and his weapon's enhancement bonus adds +1 damage, and a greatsword averages 7 damage. Thus, his average damage is 25. Bob's greatsword is not keen, nor does he have Improved Critical for it, so it threatens on a 19-20, which is a 10% chance, and has a 70% chance to confirm. So, his DPR calculation looks something like this: .7*25+.1*.7*25, and his DPR comes out to roughly 19.25.
But what if Bob had been wielding a falchion? His average damage drops to 23, but his chance to threaten a critical hit becomes 15%. The calculation looks like this: .7*23+.15*.7*23, and his DPR is roughly 18.515. So in this case, the greatsword is better by a very slight amount.
But suppose Bob were 10th level. Now he has 26 Strength, and both weapons are +2 and keen now. Additionally, Power Attack now grants +9 to damage and his Weapon Training bonus has gone up to +2. Also, let's say he's now got Weapon Specialization for whatever weapon he has chosen. Let's run the numbers for a single attack. This time, his enemy has AC 24 and Bob's attack bonus works out to +20 (rough guess, but it should be correct), so he hits on everything from 4 and up on the d20. That's an 85% chance to hit. His average damage is now 36 for the greatsword and 34 for the falchion (+16 Strength, +2 Enhancement, +2 Weapon Specialization, +2 Weapon Training, +9 Power Attack, and either 7 base for the greatsword or 5 for the falchion). The greatsword threatens on 17-20, or a 20% chance, and the falchion threatens on 15-20, or a 30% chance. So, let's run the numbers again.
Greatsword: .85*36+.2*.85*36 = Average 36.72 damage on a single hit.
Falchion: .85*34+.3*.85*34 = Average 37.57 damage on a single hit.
As you can see, the greatsword is better at lower levels while the falchion is better at higher levels. I'm not entirely sure about the exact point at which the falchion eclipses the greatsword, but it's probably somewhere before level 10. My test is far from conclusive, as there are a lot of other factors that could have gone in and Bob isn't completely optimal, but it agrees with the general consensus of falchions being better. In general, the more bonuses you pile on, the better the falchion gets relative to the greatsword. Although the difference honestly seems small enough that you might as well go with whichever weapon you think is cooler.
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This is a question about optimization...
what weapon will give me the most damage for a two-handed strength build melee combatant. I need great damage with a great balance of crit chance/multiplier.
I was thinking Greatsword due to possible 12 base damage with an average crit chance/multiplier.
Then again Scythe is okay damage with a awesome crit multiplier but only on a nat 20. 19-20 with keen still seems like a heavy investment for low returns in crit chance.
any thoughts?
I'm currently playing a scythe fighter in my friends game. Using the two handed archetype from the APG and power attack I'm getting respectable damage 95% of the time and about 5% of the time I Just End Encounters. (Well, that's not true if we're fighting more that one big thing.) From what I understand mathematically the greatsword is the way to go, but I do enjoy it when I manage to crit and do enough damage to cause a goblin's parents to have never have met. :-p
==AKA 8one6
does weilding a falcata with two-hands stand a chance?
Yes. The falcata is one of the few exotic weapons I would take.
Yar!
At level 1, assuming a strength of 18 and a BAB of +1, no feats altering hit or damage (power attack or weapon focus), non-masterwork weapon, wielding it with both hands (mandatory for some weapons), and a target AC of 10, the following weapons have the following average DPR:
Bastard Sword: 10.12
Large Bastard Sword: 11.55
Dwarven WarAxe: 10.12
Large Dwarven WarAxe: 11.55
EarthBreaker: 11.44
Elven Curve Blade: 10.58
Falcata: 10.08
Large Falcata: 10.92
Falchion: 10.12
Greatsword: 11.44
Rhoka: 9.66
Large Rhoka: 10.465
Sawtooth Sabre: 9.24
Large Sawtooth Sabre: 10.01
Huge Sawtooth Sabre: 10.89
Scythe: 10.12
Urumi: 9.66
Large Urumi: 10.465
This next option is often dismissed, because it requires a mount, but I include it anyways (you can use your Ride skill or your mounts Acrobatics skill to jump as part of movement a.k.a. during the charge, to jump over difficult terrain -doesn't guarantee you can charge, but it helps-, and if your a halfling cavalier and the Bestiary is included for your animal companion mount, you can ride a Roc into battle and fly over all terrain problems, but that is a different topic altogether).
Lance, 2handed on a normal hit: 9.24
Lance, 1handed on a Mounted Charge: 16.83
Lance, 2handed on a Mounted Charge: 20.79
...
Of course, once you start adding other modifiers (feats, class abilities, enhancement bonus', special properties & Crit properties, full attacks vs. vital strikes vs other attack options), things change quite a bit... but for basic DPR for each weapon (well, the deadlier weapons), this is what you got.
^_^
~P
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Here's the same list sorted by average damage:
9.24 - Sawtooth Sabre
9.66 - Rhoka
9.66 - Urumi
10.01 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
10.08 - Falcata
10.12 - Bastard Sword
10.12 - Dwarven WarAxe
10.12 - Falchion
10.12 - Scythe
10.47 - Large Rhoka
10.47 - Large Urumi
10.58 - Elven Curve Blade
10.89 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
10.92 - Large Falcata
11.44 - EarthBreaker
11.44 - Greatsword
11.55 - Large Bastard Sword
11.55 - Large Dwarven WarAxe