Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Book of the Damned (PFRPG)

Disappointing but understandable. I was hoping there might be things in a character option section like unchained eidolon subtypes for the various fiends which don't have material yet, stuff for minions of various fiends, rakshasa themed monk archetypes, etc. But I can see why you'd prioritise other things.

This is not and was never intended to be a "PC option book." If your GM allows evil player characters, then there's a lot of things in there, but the focus of the book is to provide the GM with world background and NPC options and the like to help build foes for you to face. And archetypes are one of those elements that work better for PCs because they help a player hyper-personalize and hyper-specialize their character to make them truly unique. A GM doesn't really need that as much since they can do whatever they want to make a foe unusual.

Plus... there's plenty of archetypes in the book just before and just after this one for you to play with. It's nice to now and then give other design elements a chance to star.

This is not and was never intended to be a "PC option book."

I'm aware, I'm a GM. I use archetypes a lot when making NPC's.

A GM doesn't really need that as much since they can do whatever they want to make a foe unusual.

With that line of thinking there's no need to purchase monster books, because I can just do whatever I want to make a foe unusual, but I still am looking forward to monster books. Having more NPC options is something I always like.

It's nice to now and then give other design elements a chance to star.

Completely agree. Which is why I said I understand your position and can see that this product has different priorities.

Milo v3 wrote:

Disappointing but understandable. I was hoping there might be things in a character option section like unchained eidolon subtypes for the various fiends which don't have material yet, stuff for minions of various fiends, rakshasa themed monk archetypes, etc. But I can see why you'd prioritise other things.

This is not and was never intended to be a "PC option book." If your GM allows evil player characters, then there's a lot of things in there, but the focus of the book is to provide the GM with world background and NPC options and the like to help build foes for you to face. And archetypes are one of those elements that work better for PCs because they help a player hyper-personalize and hyper-specialize their character to make them truly unique. A GM doesn't really need that as much since they can do whatever they want to make a foe unusual.

Plus... there's plenty of archetypes in the book just before and just after this one for you to play with. It's nice to now and then give other design elements a chance to star.

ooh, that sounds promising. As someone who doesn't play PF anymore but still likes to read up on the world and settings, how much crunch is there vs fluff? I'm really interested in sinking my teeth into some juicy fiendish lore. ;)

ooh, that sounds promising. As someone who doesn't play PF anymore but still likes to read up on the world and settings, how much crunch is there vs fluff? I'm really interested in sinking my teeth into some juicy fiendish lore. ;)

There's more flavor than rules in the book overall, but not a LOT more.

James Jacobs wrote:

This is not and was never intended to be a "PC option book."

I'm aware, I'm a GM. I use archetypes a lot when making NPC's.

Quote:

A GM doesn't really need that as much since they can do whatever they want to make a foe unusual.

With that line of thinking there's no need to purchase monster books, because I can just do whatever I want to make a foe unusual, but I still am looking forward to monster books. Having more NPC options is something I always like.

Quote:

It's nice to now and then give other design elements a chance to star.

Completely agree. Which is why I said I understand your position and can see that this product has different priorities.

Give it a rest. There's an entire line of Player Companion books for archetypes.

Give it a rest. There's an entire line of Player Companion books for archetypes.

... how many times do I have to say "I understand your position and can see that this product has different priorities."

Fifteen would be nice. :-)

And perhaps bolded. :-)

And in different font!

James (or others from Paizo that may know this answer):

Has there been any discussion on how moving more "in-setting" info into the hardcover books will affect the PRD? Will we get only a very edited or scrubbed version of the crunchy bits put up online or will it be the full text like for earlier works?

James (or others from Paizo that may know this answer):

Has there been any discussion on how moving more "in-setting" info into the hardcover books will affect the PRD? Will we get only a very edited or scrubbed version of the crunchy bits put up online or will it be the full text like for earlier works?

The flavor of our products will remain product identity. Rules content will remain open content. How that'll show up on the PRD is something we're currently working on. But actual word content will NOT become part of the PRD. That isn't changing.

FYI, lots of info here: http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2017/04/know-direction-154-interview-with-j ames-jacobs/

Thanks for the interview James!

EDIT: Link is breaking but isn't broken when I try to edit it. Remember to remove the space when you copy/paste it!

EDIT 2: I'm watching listening right now although, I'm going to call it a night soon.

a) 2 pages on Kyton demigods. Yay! Hopefully we see some of them get fleshed out more in the AP line.

b) James, I for one would love to see more extraplaner content. Book of the Righteous and Wrath of the Righteous were the two things that got me into Pathfinder. Count me as one of those who would love to see more extraplaner content. It would be a glorious day to see an expanded hardcover Book of the Righteous.

We now need Legacy of the Damned in the Player Companion line I think ;-)

We now need Legacy of the Damned in the Player Companion line I think ;-)

I've been thinking about Paths of the Damned, myself. Prestige classes for each type of fiend...

Things I'm really pleased to know from the KD Interview:

1) There's a chapter exclusively for the evil aligned realms and locations.

2) There're two pages for the Kyton Demagogues (which could mean we are getting two pages for each of the "lesser" fiendish demigod groups/pantheons)

3) The exact number of demon lords in the book: 32

4) The book chapter arrangement (1-Demigods; 2-Realms; 3-Options; 4-Bestiary)

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Gold,

I'm assuming my Lord Orcus will get a write up but probably not extensive coverage compared to some other Demon Lords.

Things I'm really pleased to know from the KD Interview:

1) There's a chapter exclusively for the evil aligned realms and locations.

2) There're two pages for the Kyton Demagogues (which could mean we are getting two pages for each of the "lesser" fiendish demigod groups/pantheons)

3) The exact number of demon lords in the book: 32

4) The book chapter arrangement (1-Demigods; 2-Realms; 3-Options; 4-Bestiary)

1) Yup!

2) Yup... or more than two pages for larger categories like infernal dukes or harbingers.

3) Something like 32. That was sorta a guess... it's however many demon lords there are in Book of the Damned II.

4) Plus "Appendix" which contains the info on the Book of the Damned from Hell Unleashed as well as all of the in-world pages from the book we published in the original run.

Gold,

I'm assuming my Lord Orcus will get a write up but probably not extensive coverage compared to some other Demon Lords.

All demon lords get a two page entry and have an illustration.

Including OGL demon lords like Jubilex and Orcus.

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Every two page entry gets its own illustration, yes. That means there'll be illustrations of all demon lords, all arch devils, the horsemen, the queens of the night, and Ahriman, along with several more illos of other fiendish demigods. Most of them are new illustrations, since we prefer not to reprint illustrations once they have appeared in other hardcovers.

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Gold,

I'm assuming my Lord Orcus will get a write up but probably not extensive coverage compared to some other Demon Lords.

All demon lords get a two page entry and have an illustration.

Including OGL demon lords like Jubilex and Orcus.

Sweet! Thanks for confirming this Mister Jacobs! :D *dances around the fire with frozen chickens for Orcus*

James Jacobs wrote:

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Gold,

I'm assuming my Lord Orcus will get a write up but probably not extensive coverage compared to some other Demon Lords.

All demon lords get a two page entry and have an illustration.

Including OGL demon lords like Jubilex and Orcus.

Sweet! Thanks for confirming this Mister Jacobs! :D *dances around the fire with frozen chickens for Orcus*

I was also under the same assumption Blaine, but, fortunately, we were wrong!

*brings more froze chickens*

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Every two page entry gets its own illustration, yes. That means there'll be illustrations of all demon lords, all arch devils, the horsemen, the queens of the night, and Ahriman, along with several more illos of other fiendish demigods. Most of them are new illustrations, since we prefer not to reprint illustrations once they have appeared in other hardcovers.

Thanks for answering James! I'm really glad to hear that, and I'm sorry if a made you reaffirm this... But art is a really helpful tool for inspiration, and one of my favorite aspects of Pathfinder books.

I'm really excited to indeed see all these major powers of the setting, but now I'm also excited to see the Pathfinder version of the classic OGL demon lords.

So I noticed that back in Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness, there where some spells such as Hellfire and Summon Hellmouth that are listed as spells in the Book(Artifact) but not actually listed. Will we get the chance to see these spells and more in the Hardback version?

YES! More Evil!

So I noticed that back in Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness, there where some spells such as Hellfire and Summon Hellmouth that are listed as spells in the Book(Artifact) but not actually listed. Will we get the chance to see these spells and more in the Hardback version?

No, because they were never created. There ARE new spells coming, but not those ones, which have been cut for what they essentially were—errors.

that's a pity - summon hellmouth reminds of the the end of buffy the vampire slayer

That Know Direction interview with James Jacobs was great. Very fun and informative. You should do more of those!

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Every two page entry gets its own illustration, yes. That means there'll be illustrations of all demon lords, all arch devils, the horsemen, the queens of the night, and Ahriman, along with several more illos of other fiendish demigods. Most of them are new illustrations, since we prefer not to reprint illustrations once they have appeared in other hardcovers.

Will he look differently because of OGL/intellectual property reasons? Compared to this?

James Jacobs wrote:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Every two page entry gets its own illustration, yes. That means there'll be illustrations of all demon lords, all arch devils, the horsemen, the queens of the night, and Ahriman, along with several more illos of other fiendish demigods. Most of them are new illustrations, since we prefer not to reprint illustrations once they have appeared in other hardcovers.

Will he look differently because of OGL/intellectual property reasons? Compared to this?

Orcus is a tricky dude there... he's open content, along with his physical description, thanks to the Tome of Horrors, but at the same point we don't want him to look exactly like the WotC version or the Necromancer Games version. He needs to be recognizable as Orcus, but not someone you'd mistake for the WotC one or the Necromancer Games one. We'll see if we succeed, I guess, when the book is out.

Axial wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Every two page entry gets its own illustration, yes. That means there'll be illustrations of all demon lords, all arch devils, the horsemen, the queens of the night, and Ahriman, along with several more illos of other fiendish demigods. Most of them are new illustrations, since we prefer not to reprint illustrations once they have appeared in other hardcovers.

Will he look differently because of OGL/intellectual property reasons? Compared to this?

Orcus is a tricky dude there... he's open content, along with his physical description, thanks to the Tome of Horrors, but at the same point we don't want him to look exactly like the WotC version or the Necromancer Games version. He needs to be recognizable as Orcus, but not someone you'd mistake for the WotC one or the Necromancer Games one. We'll see if we succeed, I guess, when the book is out.

Now I'm excited to see what Paizo does here.

Any idea on who the artist is?

Any idea on who the artist is?

I've seen two sketches so far, and I like where it's going, but I don't know who the artist is and it's not the time to reveal that anyway.

Furthermore, I'm more likely, once previews get going, to focus the actual previews on content that we've built up or created. Orcus has had more than his share of time in the spotlight.

Axial wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

I'm rather curious about how are you handling Orcus in this book. Is he getting two pages with rules, flavor and art as all the others? Orcus was among the Demon Lords in Lords of Chaos, and that's why I'm asking - specially because of the illustration.

I know I might have asked this before, as illustrations are one of my favorite parts of the flavor in the book - but are all the "two pagers" getting illustrations?

Every two page entry gets its own illustration, yes. That means there'll be illustrations of all demon lords, all arch devils, the horsemen, the queens of the night, and Ahriman, along with several more illos of other fiendish demigods. Most of them are new illustrations, since we prefer not to reprint illustrations once they have appeared in other hardcovers.

Will he look differently because of OGL/intellectual property reasons? Compared to this?

Orcus is a tricky dude there... he's open content, along with his physical description, thanks to the Tome of Horrors, but at the same point we don't want him to look exactly like the WotC version or the Necromancer Games version. He needs to be recognizable as Orcus, but not someone you'd mistake for the WotC one or the Necromancer Games one. We'll see if we succeed, I guess, when the book is out.

Awesome. I look forward to seeing what Paizo!Orcus looks like. If people prefer the old version; that's fine. You could argue that both are valid: a lot of deities and fiendish demigods are portrayed as having different forms or being able to shapeshift.

So this book is gonna have the Queens of the Night retcon?

It's a decent idea and I certainly like the worldbuilding aspect of it, though if I were to do something to tone down misogynistic implications... I probably wouldn't reference "The Magic Flute."

So this book is gonna have the Queens of the Night retcon?

Yes, although I like to hearken it to something more like "errata" than a "retcon." It's just as easy to make errors when creating world content or flavor for a setting as it is to make errors when building rules, but the fact that it's so much more difficult to correct errors in world content since so many folks have an easier time quantifying and accepting absolutes with rules but not with more descriptive text frustrates me.

Ahh, gotcha.

Another reason "retcon" isn't as appropriate is that the older term for the Queens of Night is still extant and even used within the setting...just mainly by chauvinists and the Archdevils.

If someone were to arrogantly use the term too often or—heaven's forfend—to one of their faces, that individual will find themselves eviscerated. If they are lucky.

"Errata" is definitely the better term as it was "an error to leave out the proper title and only leave in the derogatory slur."

Orcus is a tricky dude there... he's open content, along with his physical description, thanks to the Tome of Horrors

Why thanks to the ToH? Wouldn't an official WotC product have had to make it open content first so the ToH could use it? Or was the ToH made under some arrangement that allowed them to make things open content that weren't before?

Or was the ToH made under some arrangement that allowed them to make things open content that weren't before?

Yes.

That's interesting. I had assumed that only open content were ones that Wizards had made open content. Are there other third party products out there, other than the Tome of Horrors, that made pre-existing Wizards property open?

No, the Tome of Horrors was unique in that regard.

James Jacobs wrote:

Orcus is a tricky dude there... he's open content, along with his physical description, thanks to the Tome of Horrors

Why thanks to the ToH? Wouldn't an official WotC product have had to make it open content first so the ToH could use it? Or was the ToH made under some arrangement that allowed them to make things open content that weren't before?

The Tome of Horrors was made under a special arrangement with Wizards to include a HUGE number of 3rd edition open content stats for monsters that, as of Monster Manual and Monster Manual 2 and the Faerun monster book had not yet been presented for 3rd edition. Orcus was among those monsters, along with hundreds of more, ranging from the thessalhydra (which we just picked up for Bestiary 6) to the froghemoth (which we picked up for our first Bestiary).

This is also why you can't just cite the Tome of Horrors in your OGL statement if you use content from it; you have to cite each and every monster individually; that was part of the deal they struck with WotC.

(At the time Necromancer Games struck this deal, the brand manager at WotC was under the impression that there were no plans to continue to reprint old monsters and that WotC's future Monster Manuals would focus on new content for 3rd edition, and that special license to print those monsters was granted to Tome of Horrors. Almost immediately thereafter, though, WotC decided otherwise, which is why there are some monsters that are not open content that appear in their very next monster book, the Fiend Folio, that duplicate monsters in the Tome of Horrors. Things like demodands, for example. So yeah, Tome of Horrors kinda got in at the exact right time to do what it did.)

This is very interesting. Thank you for the information. Is there any publicly available further reading on this thing? Like press releases by Necromancer, industry articles or something?

This is very interesting. Thank you for the information. Is there any publicly available further reading on this thing? Like press releases by Necromancer, industry articles or something?

Not that I'm aware of. That said, this topic should transition to its own thread at this point.

Yeah let's save Necromancer Games history for when we have the right thread.

Right now, I'm just glad I'll see some kind of artistry for Orcus that doesn't look like 4th edition...

In BotD Vol.1, when it listed the various Devils it told what kind of torment in Hell that creates them.
Just as it tell us the ehat kind of Sin for Demons and Death for Daemons. But that was the only book that explains what torment creats which Devil. So in this book willwe bet an uodate on all the methods of Devil Creation?

I'm really curious to see how this product will affect future campaign setting-like books in the line and also the possibility of other books about the planes. Really, I'm anxious to see the contents of the book (especially the illustrations for never "seen" before demon lords), but I'm even more anxious to see how successful this product will be.

Only then am I going to start dreaming about a Chronicles of the Righteous Hardcover. *-* (Lies! I'm already dreaming about it).

Paladinosaur wrote:

Ohhh, its in the RPG line. I'm really happy with this route.

Is James Jacobs developing this?

Nope.

In that I just finished developing it last Monday, that is. So the present tense is no longer accurate. :-P

James, a few quick questions. Will this give details including encounter tables, maps of some of the levels of these planes and more unique monsters in them? I am hoping so. I hope this builds from the existing knowledge and fleshes things out in greater details (so a GM can run campaigns or simple treks to each).

RicMTheGM

James Jacobs wrote:

Paladinosaur wrote:

Ohhh, its in the RPG line. I'm really happy with this route.

Is James Jacobs developing this?

Nope.

In that I just finished developing it last Monday, that is. So the present tense is no longer accurate. :-P

James, a few quick questions. Will this give details including encounter tables, maps of some of the levels of these planes and more unique monsters in them? I am hoping so. I hope this builds from the existing knowledge and fleshes things out in greater details (so a GM can run campaigns or simple treks to each).

RicMTheGM

No encounter tables. Not really any maps—we talk a little bit about the planes, but the primary focus of the book is on the denizens of those planes, and the primary focus there is on the fiendish demigods.

Is there a book that addresses the geography of these planes? I don't really know what they're like. I know in the old days there used to be nine levels to the Hells and 666 layers of the Abyss. Is there a PF source to these sorts of things, or do I need to fall back on 3e Manual of the Planes?

Is there a book that addresses the geography of these planes? I don't really know what they're like. I know in the old days there used to be nine levels to the Hells and 666 layers of the Abyss. Is there a PF source to these sorts of things, or do I need to fall back on 3e Manual of the Planes?

There's an article about the various rifts of the Abyss in Pathfinder Adventure Path #76: The Midnight Isles. As for Hell, your best bet is probably Hell Unleashed. There's also the 3.5-era Pathfinder Chronicles supplement The Great Beyond, but it's old enough that I wouldn't consider its contents irrefutably canonical.

That said, for home campaigns, I wholeheartedly support filling in the gaps with the Manual of the Planes. In my opinion, it's one of the absolute best Third Edition books. ^_^