The Gold Sovereign |
Well, the thing is that this book is primarily content for adventuring parties of good alignment...it's just focusing more on areas and creatures for those parties to adventure in/against. Which is probably the reason why we're less likely to get a hardcover about the celestial planes and such...good-aligned adventurers are less likely to adventure there or combat their inhabitants, though I'd still love to see it, but I manage my expectations there for the above reasons.
And, for what it's worth, it does say, "...for use by characters who both fight against and serve the forces of darkness." Not sure on the exact ratio, but still.
What I'm going to say is totally UNOFFICIAL and should be taken as a large amount of ASSUMPTIONS!
But
Judging by the content of the original trilogy, I'm close to sure that this book is far MORE about SERVING the darkness than fighting it. You probably (and probably only) should expect close to 75% of the book to be about option for characters serving these demigods and forces of evil. From feats and spells to prestige classes and equipment.
This will help us build foes for the PCs to fight against, and I'm again CLOSE to sure that this is how far we are going with the "fight against". Of course, we have the bestiary as well, with more enemies to battle against.
If you think to much about the serving and fighting aspects of the book, Book of the Damned is going to be really useful for all types of GMs, but only for evil aligned players. Chronicles of the Righteous would be useful for all sorts of Game Masters and also for the most common type of player: good aligned ones.
A Chronicles of the Righteous Hardcover with the same amount of contest would be a far more useful and requested book on all sorts of tables, I'm sure about it.
D. Castro |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking as myself and not as a dragon fanatic...
I don't know about you all, but I would be whiling to sacrifice some books in the Campaign Setting line for books like Adventure's Guide and Book of the Damned. :O
I mean, in a single book we have a large amount of content covered; from lore and flavor to rules and options. All packed in one single book! A content that we are going to be able to use to design our own settings! Just imagining books like this one about the other major planes that can easily fit on anyone's setting - and by that I mean the Upper Planes, the Elemental Planes and the Realm of the Fey - It would be like a dream coming true.
I'm not really interested in or even concerned about the "fighting vs serving" aspects of this book... I'm FAR MORE interested in the options that will come within it. Rules for adventuring in these realms, feats, spells, equipment, class options, faith options, maybe even templates and racial traits! *¬*
I really liked and fully support the initiative of bringing the combination of FLAVOR and RULES to the RPG line, and I totally want to see more about the planes and faith in the line.
Luthorne |
What I'm going to say is totally UNOFFICIAL and should be taken as a large amount of ASSUMPTIONS!
But
Judging by the content of the original trilogy, I'm close to sure that this book is far MORE about SERVING the darkness than fighting it. You probably (and probably only) should expect close to 75% of the book to be about option for characters serving these demigods and forces of evil. From feats and spells to prestige classes and equipment.
This will help us build foes for the PCs to fight against, and I'm again CLOSE to sure that this is how far we are going with the "fight against". Of course, we have the bestiary as well, with more enemies to battle against.
If you think to much about the serving and fighting aspects of the book, Book of the Damned is going to be really useful for all types of GMs, but only for evil aligned players. Chronicles of the Righteous would be useful for all sorts of Game Masters and also for the most common type of player: good aligned ones.
A Chronicles of the Righteous Hardcover with the same amount of contest would be a far more useful and requested book on all sorts of tables, I'm sure about it.
Yeah, but a GM is going to generally make roughly a bazillion more evil cgaracters than a player will, so I still think evil material for GMs is probably seen as generally being more useful for the same reasons that evil monsters are seen as generally being more useful. Which is also probably why the original trilogy was a trilogy, and we only got a single book for Chronicle of the Righteous. I'm not certain how a hypothetical hardcover version of Chronicle of the Righteous would be useful for all sorts of GMs, though, can you expand on that? It seems like it would only be useful for GMs who are either running an evil (or at least morally ambivalent) game and want some more tools for the opposition, intend to run games in the celestial realms, or have a setting with a strong celestial presence in their setting...none of which are particularly common, given that - at least in my experience - it's more popular to adventure in the Abyss or Hell when it comes to outer plane adventures, and most GMs I've played with prefer to keep the celestial presence relatively low so that the PCs are the primary heroes...do your experiences there differ?
Edit: Though, of course, I would still love to see such a book, but the above are reasons I think it's less likely.
Gorbacz |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've had to take things in my own hands and play a flexi-sexual albino tiefling Paladin of Shelyn in my friends' Out of Abyss game.
Long white hair. A massive zwiehander called Maria whom he is in platonic love with. An even greater ego and an even greater libido.
Some people are yet to recover from my performance, which was part Sephiroth, part Sterling Mallory Archer and part Dr. Frank 'n' Furter, while all the time adhering to Shelyn's paladin code. As long as somebody was looking, that is.
MMCJawa |
Luthorne wrote:Well, the thing is that this book is primarily content for adventuring parties of good alignment...it's just focusing more on areas and creatures for those parties to adventure in/against. Which is probably the reason why we're less likely to get a hardcover about the celestial planes and such...good-aligned adventurers are less likely to adventure there or combat their inhabitants, though I'd still love to see it, but I manage my expectations there for the above reasons.
And, for what it's worth, it does say, "...for use by characters who both fight against and serve the forces of darkness." Not sure on the exact ratio, but still.
What I'm going to say is totally UNOFFICIAL and should be taken as a large amount of ASSUMPTIONS!
But
Judging by the content of the original trilogy, I'm close to sure that this book is far MORE about SERVING the darkness than fighting it. You probably (and probably only) should expect close to 75% of the book to be about option for characters serving these demigods and forces of evil. From feats and spells to prestige classes and equipment.
This will help us build foes for the PCs to fight against, and I'm again CLOSE to sure that this is how far we are going with the "fight against". Of course, we have the bestiary as well, with more enemies to battle against.
If you think to much about the serving and fighting aspects of the book, Book of the Damned is going to be really useful for all types of GMs, but only for evil aligned players. Chronicles of the Righteous would be useful for all sorts of Game Masters and also for the most common type of player: good aligned ones.
A Chronicles of the Righteous Hardcover with the same amount of contest would be a far more useful and requested book on all sorts of tables, I'm sure about it.
75%? That doesn't at all jive with the previous books of the damned. IIRC we are getting at least a 2 page spread for every archdevil, Queen of Darkness, demon lord, and horseman, plus random stuff on the planes, other prominent groups, the book itself, etc. I'd expect "PC Options" to be closer in percentage to Inner Sea Gods or Inner Sea Races.
Davia D |
I'd expect more small 'Books of the Damned' covering Kytons and perhaps other evil outsider groups, before a hardcover book of Empyreal Lords or whatnot.
Of the neutral outsiders, Psychopomps and Proteans *might* be ready for the softcover treatment (Inevitables and Axiomites, which could share a book, or Aeons, not so much), and I'd expect at least three softcovers and a couple of years to pass before a hardcover is even warranted.
Gosh, now I've jazzed myself up for a hypothetical 'Book of Balance: Proteans...' which is not even a gleam in the mailman's eye, at this point.
'Book of Balance' strikes me as a pretty planescape-y term- Unlike the Great Wheel of D&D, in the Great Beyond it's not in balance between anything, it came before them and doesn't represent a balance point but more... hm... 'Book of Creation: Proteans' maybe?
The Gold Sovereign |
75%? That doesn't at all jive with the previous books of the damned. IIRC we are getting at least a 2 page spread for every archdevil, Queen of Darkness, demon lord, and horseman, plus random stuff on the planes, other prominent groups, the book itself, etc. I'd expect "PC Options" to be closer in percentage to Inner Sea Gods or Inner Sea Races.
We are not talking about the FLAVOR X "PC OPTIONS" aspects of the book, we are talking about SERVING X FIGHTING.
For example - Dragon Slayer Handbook is completely different from Legacy of Dragons - the first is about fighting dragons and the second about using the power of dragons. Book of the Damned is 75% serving the evil demigods and I can't really remember any option about fighting them...
To me, Book of the Damned isn't about how to fight and defeat the demigods, it more about serving them.
Berselius |
I'm not saying that Paizo shouldn't do a core manual book with 75% of the content based on serving or describing the fiendish planes of the multiverse and the vile powers that dwell there. What I am saying is I hope Paizo balances the scales and release hardcover core manuals covering the other two works of Tabris (aka Chronicle of the Righteous and the Concordance of Rivals).
I wouldn't say that "good aligned ones" are the most common type of PC. 90% of PCs played in my games are Neutral, of which 80% are CN and NN. I'm yet to see a LG character at my table.
Oops, uh, if I implied that Paizo had a focus on good-aligned manuals then I slipped up. What I was trying to imply was that Paizo had a focus on producing content for adventuring parties that were interested in defeating the enemies of the adventure paths and modules they were in (usually this involves defeating foes that threaten the world of Golarion or a nation or kingdom in it in some such manner). They could be scoundrels with hearts of gold or selfish and roguish rakes with a soft spot for kittens but generally they are motivated to stop the bad guys (instead of wanting to serve them or join their cause).
I wouldn't say that "good aligned ones" are the most common type of PC. 90% of PCs played in my games are Neutral, of which 80% are CN and NN. I'm yet to see a LG character at my table.
There's always that righteous crusader of Ragathiel you salivated for Gor dude. ;) :D
To me, Book of the Damned is about knowing them and their motivations. It gives you information on those who serve, and their goals.
It's not about how to fight them in the same sense a Slayer Handbook is, but it does give a lot of info on how they work as villains in plots.
I can accept that we need that as well as needing more info on the three fiendish planes of the multiverse.
I just hope Paizo balances it out by giving us rich detail on all the other planes (and powers that dwell within them).
75%? That doesn't at all jive with the previous books of the damned. IIRC we are getting at least a 2 page spread for every archdevil, Queen of Darkness, demon lord, and horseman, plus random stuff on the planes, other prominent groups, the book itself, etc. I'd expect "PC Options" to be closer in percentage to Inner Sea Gods or Inner Sea Races.
Will that include stats for them?
Gorbacz |
There's always that righteous crusader of Ragathiel you salivated for Gor dude. ;) :D
Yeah, but he would be LE with Chaotic tendencies, so I'm eagerly awaiting Book of the Damned for material. Kill the heretic, eviscerate the unclean. Only through the purging flame of pyres full of witches shall the bliss of purity be achieved.
Rysky |
The Gold Sovereign wrote:Berselius wrote:Will that include stats for them?No. No stats for any demigod.Aren't the stats for all Archdevils, Queens of Darkness and Horsemen to be in Bestiary 6(66)? ;-)
Bestiary 4 has Pazuzu, Kostchie and another one if i remember correctly.
Yes, but no stats in this book.
Dagon is the other Demon Lord you're thinking of.
Luthorne |
Oops, uh, if I implied that Paizo had a focus on good-aligned manuals then I slipped up. What I was trying to imply was that Paizo had a focus on producing content for adventuring parties that were interested in defeating the enemies of the adventure paths and modules they were in (usually this involves defeating foes that threaten the world of Golarion or a nation or kingdom in it in some such manner). They could be scoundrels with hearts of gold or selfish and roguish rakes with a soft spot for kittens but generally they are motivated to stop the bad guys (instead of wanting to serve them or join their cause).
Eh, rather than alignment, I think that's more about just making sure your PCs are willing to subordinate themselves to the overall story. If you decide to play a good-aligned character in, say, Rise of the Runelords, but they're only there to gather allies to fight an evil shadow demon back home and keep steadfastly resisting getting involved in the adventure path because that's not what their character would do, that's just as disruptive. Conversely, an evil character could have motivations that would allow them to play the adventure path without being disruptive...if the player is willing to make a character whose motivations align appropriately.
Worst case I remember in that regards wasn't an evil character, but someone who joined a Skulls & Shackles game...but somehow never found time to actually read the Player's Handbook for it...or anything about it...and didn't realize they were supposed to become a pirate. Not only did they absolutely refuse, they tried to burn down the boat we were on after getting kidnapped...because that was what their character would do, apparently.
I just hope Paizo balances it out by giving us rich detail on all the other planes (and powers that dwell within them).
It would be nice, I just suspect they're considerably lower priority. I love planar material regardless, and would especially love some more information about Axis. There's just much more of a tradition of storming the gates of Hell than the gates of Heaven...well, maybe if you're playing in a Dragon Age setting, but that's pretty different all around...
Samy |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm skeptical about this product. It seems like yet another "Enemy Book" type thing. Villain Codex -- enemy statblock book. Bestiary 6 -- enemy statblock book. Adventurers' Guide -- enemy organizations. Books of the Damned -- more enemies again. Maybe this one is more flavor than crunch, as opposed to something like B6, but nonetheless an enemy book. Seems like the focus for the RPG line is to provide material for DMs. I feel like material for players -- new feats, archetypes, classes, subsystems -- is only an afterthought now, and will get sprinkled in to DM-oriented enemy books where you have to comb for them.
Oh, for another APG/Ultimate Magic/Combat/Campaign/Equipment/Occut Adventures/ACG/Technology Guide. With those you felt like the players were catered to. Ever since Horror Adventures, I no longer really feel that anymore. The RPG line feels like it's abandoned the players and only throws them vague scraps in-between DM material.
captain yesterday |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what we're saying is that the player side of Pathfinder is finished? And from here on it'll only be a torrent of DM-oriented enemy books anymore?
And yet this is what you drew from it.
First of all, I have absolutely no input into what books they release, or what they put in them. So drawing implications from anything I say on the subject is on you. :-)
QuidEst |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've got two characters that are getting plenty of use out of this. One Rakshasa who really screwed up in the last reincarnation (now a Kitsune Mesmerist/Psychic), who will be glad to have obediences available along with any other Rakshasa-related material, and one NE character who has resigned herself to her afterlife destination, and would like to arrive there in a better position than "fresh soul-meat".
Rakshasas are pretty niche content, so I never expected to get anything PC-friendly for them apart from the bloodline and familiar, and Daemons are less popular than their LE and CE cousins, so getting this much for them was a pleasant surprise as well.
Isabelle Lee |
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My understanding is that the Adventurer's Guide is a player focused book, but the crunch is themed around the different Golarion organizations.
In addition, I'd say that most are allies - Eagle Knights, Lantern Bearers - or, at worst, neutral - Aldori Swordlords, Mammoth Lords.
Hardly a tome of enemy organizations. ^_^
MMCJawa |
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I'm skeptical about this product. It seems like yet another "Enemy Book" type thing. Villain Codex -- enemy statblock book. Bestiary 6 -- enemy statblock book. Adventurers' Guide -- enemy organizations. Books of the Damned -- more enemies again. Maybe this one is more flavor than crunch, as opposed to something like B6, but nonetheless an enemy book. Seems like the focus for the RPG line is to provide material for DMs. I feel like material for players -- new feats, archetypes, classes, subsystems -- is only an afterthought now, and will get sprinkled in to DM-oriented enemy books where you have to comb for them.
Oh, for another APG/Ultimate Magic/Combat/Campaign/Equipment/Occut Adventures/ACG/Technology Guide. With those you felt like the players were catered to. Ever since Horror Adventures, I no longer really feel that anymore. The RPG line feels like it's abandoned the players and only throws them vague scraps in-between DM material.
The Adventurers book is definitely focused on PC material (To be honest more than I would prefer actually).
I wouldn't read too much into this year's line of releases. I suspect we are getting this line up of books more because of Starfinder than because of Pathfinder running out of material. Producing a rulebook for a relatively brand new rules system in a brand new genre, a rulebook topping 500 pages, is going to eat up a lot of the rule design team's time.
Large chunks of all three of the upcoming rules books are heavily based off of existing material, and also material that can probably be easily outsourced to freelancers. I would be pretty shocked if we didn't get a player option heavy Ultimate or Adventures line book next year, once this initial Starfinder hurdle is passed.
The Gold Sovereign |
To me, Book of the Damned is about knowing them and their motivations. It gives you information on those who serve, and their goals.
It's not about how to fight them in the same sense a Slayer Handbook is, but it does give a lot of info on how they work as villains in plots.
About the SERVING X FIGHTING aspects of the book:
Here is Mr. James Jacobs comment on this subject.
Exactly as this friend here said. So I think we can move on now... XD
Marco Massoudi wrote:The Gold Sovereign wrote:Berselius wrote:Will that include stats for them?No. No stats for any demigod.Aren't the stats for all Archdevils, Queens of Darkness and Horsemen to be in Bestiary 6(66)? ;-)
Bestiary 4 has Pazuzu, Kostchie and another one if i remember correctly.
Yes, but no stats in this book.
Dagon is the other Demon Lord you're thinking of.
IIRC, there's no stats for the Queens of the Night in B6. There's also no stats for the rest of the Demon Lords.
Monkeygod |
I'm skeptical about this product. It seems like yet another "Enemy Book" type thing. Villain Codex -- enemy statblock book. Bestiary 6 -- enemy statblock book. Adventurers' Guide -- enemy organizations. Books of the Damned -- more enemies again. Maybe this one is more flavor than crunch, as opposed to something like B6, but nonetheless an enemy book. Seems like the focus for the RPG line is to provide material for DMs. I feel like material for players -- new feats, archetypes, classes, subsystems -- is only an afterthought now, and will get sprinkled in to DM-oriented enemy books where you have to comb for them.
Oh, for another APG/Ultimate Magic/Combat/Campaign/Equipment/Occut Adventures/ACG/Technology Guide. With those you felt like the players were catered to. Ever since Horror Adventures, I no longer really feel that anymore. The RPG line feels like it's abandoned the players and only throws them vague scraps in-between DM material.
Various members of Paizo staff have said on multiple occasions, that their release paradigm was to focus on all the options you needed to play the game first and foremost, and then expand beyond those rules into various other non-essential supplements.
You'll note, CRB was released around 2009, APG in 2010 or so, and the first two Ultimate books(magic and combat) shortly thereafter.
Once those books were out of the way, and thus the *vast* majority of PC options were in the hands of the players, Paizo began releasing other, less essential books. Like the ARG and ultimate equipment.
There's currently 43 base classes, including alternate ones(like ninja) and the unchained variants.
19 'core' PrCs, ie, not the ones found in campaign specific books.
A SLEW of archetypes, feats, traits, etc.
Oh, and uh...
AN ENTIRE LINE DEVOTED SPECIFICALLY TO PLAYERS
Guy St-Amant |
Samy wrote:***Various members of Paizo staff have said on multiple occasions, that their release paradigm was to focus on all the options you needed to play the game first and foremost, and then expand beyond those rules into various other non-essential supplements.
You'll note, CRB was released around 2009, APG in 2010 or so, and the first two Ultimate books(magic and combat) shortly thereafter.
Once those books were out of the way, and thus the *vast* majority of PC options were in the hands of the players, Paizo began releasing other, less essential books. Like the ARG and ultimate equipment.
There's currently 43 base classes, including alternate ones(like ninja) and the unchained variants.
19 'core' PrCs, ie, not the ones found in campaign specific books.
A SLEW of archetypes, feats, traits, etc.
Oh, and uh...
AN ENTIRE LINE DEVOTED SPECIFICALLY TO PLAYERS
Many of those have options more suited for NPCs than PCs, and options usable by both... the Player Companion lines isn't immune to giving GM/NPC only options/rules, Blood of the Night comes to mind, Blood of the Elements also got bashed for the "fluff" vs rules/mechanic.
Berselius |
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Berselius wrote:There's always that righteous crusader of Ragathiel you salivated for Gor dude. ;) :DYeah, but he would be LE with Chaotic tendencies, so I'm eagerly awaiting Book of the Damned for material. Kill the heretic, eviscerate the unclean. Only through the purging flame of pyres full of witches shall the bliss of purity be achieved.
From what I'm aware Gor, only LG characters can become Crimson Templars and I don't think Ragathiel would tolerate a evil-aligned PC worshiping him much less grant him any abilities or spells.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
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One of the things that helps to keep demons, devils, and daemons from being interchangeable and indistinguishable from each other is the fact that devils use infernal contracts and demons are good at helping mortals destroy themselves (such as by destroying their humanity through the transformation of the body into something demonic).
Mixing that up across fiend types tends to blur boundaries and homogenize things in a way for fiends overall that I'm not fond of; these three races already have enough baseline similarities that diluting the things that make them different from each other is undesirable from my viewpoint.
Daemons have traditionally lacked much in the way of a "path to power" for mortals because unlike devils (who want to enslave mortals) and demons (who need mortals to live and sin so they can become demons in the afterlife), daemons only want to eat our souls, and they don't really particularly care if we're loyal or not or tough or not.
That's why infernal contracts are generally limited to devils, and the transformation ritual is traditionally something that's associated with demons, and the practice of soul trapping and trading and consuming is associated with daemons but doesn't particularly allow for a lot of daemon/mortal cross-cultural empowerment.
That said, the ritual detailed in Book of the Damned for fiendish apotheosis are presented in a way that they CAN be used for any type of fiend, not just demons. And the ritual detailed in Book of the Damned for soul trapping likewise just requires you to be evil, not specifically a minion of daemons. And while it remains easiest for devils to forge infernal contracts, any fiend could do one if they wish... just don't expect chaotic ones to honor said contract!