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Skill Challenge Handbook (PFRPG) PDF

***** (based on 4 ratings)

Our Price: $9.95

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Neverending Challenges Await!

Challenge your players like never before using the SKILL CHALLENGE HANDBOOK, by Everyman Gaming LLC. Building up decades of roleplaying game mechanics and history, the SKILL CHALLENGE HANDBOOK provides GMs with everything they need in order to design truly memorable skill-based challenges for their PCs. With the SKILL CHALLENGE HANDBOOK, skills in the Pathnder Roleplaying Game are no longer a one-roll-solves-all affair: success requires strategy, cooperation, and determination, transforming even the simplest scene into a full-fledged encounter with as much depth as any battle.

SKILL CHALLENGE HANDBOOK includes:

Rules for running skill challenges—multi-check scenarios that require PCs to think tactically and plan accordingly in order to win the day.
An in-depth analysis of how to construct skill challenges for use in your home games, as well as a step-by-step guide pertaining to the construction to whatever skill challenge you need to properly set the scene.
Four skill challenge subtypes: chases, contests, influence challenges, and verbal duels, each designed with their own mechanical quirks and special features, as well as rules describing how to properly run and construct skill challenges of each type.
Example skill challenges of each type presented within to provide GMs with adequate examples, as well as ready-to-play skill challenges for fast use.
And much more!
With Everyman Gaming, innovation is never more than a page away!

Page Count: 78

Product Availability

Will be added to your My Downloads Page immediately upon purchase of PDF.

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

PZOPDFRGGEMG0014E


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Product Discussion (95)
51 to 95 of 95 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Congrats on hitting the #2 spot on the top ten downloads list!

Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Congrats on hitting the #2 spot on the top ten downloads list!

Thank you! More than anything it makes me happy to know that people like this book. GM-focused manuals are a huge risk for 3PP, and seeing a GM-focused book so high on the top sellers list is a feat in and of itself.

To all of my Paizo.com fans and supporters, you're the best!


Well, I don't think the presentation hurt any - and you did seem to have hit something a lot of GM's would like to be doing better. XD I know I wanted better skill checks.


Love this product. I've been doing my own version of progress checks for years and seeing all these elements brought together (including chases, influence, more...) is such a wonderful tool.

So!

When you decide to take the next step of turning this product into not only a hardcopy but also a DM Screen, please please please resist the urge illustrate the front with fox people or it will simply be too much an eyesore to actually purchase.

Cheers!

Contributor

rainzax wrote:

Love this product. I've been doing my own version of progress checks for years and seeing all these elements brought together (including chases, influence, more...) is such a wonderful tool.

So!

When you decide to take the next step of turning this product into not only a hardcopy but also a DM Screen, please please please resist the urge illustrate the front with fox people or it will simply be too much an eyesore to actually purchase.

Cheers!

Glad you like it! Out of curiosity, when you say, "Hard copy" do you mean "a print book" or a literal hardcover book? You can currently get softcover copies of the book at DriveThruRPG, which is why I was curious. (We're currently working on Paizo, but there's a good chance I won't be able to attend to it until after GenCon.)

As for a GM screen what, might I ask, would you want to see in a Skill Challenge GM screen?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The tables perhaps (still getting to know this product). Which, admittedly wouldn't take up a lot of space. Because for example our group improvised a skill challenge today in order to resolve a spontaneous investigation - I chose the CR and format on the spot, and together we decided which skills would be primary/secondary/tertiary. The part that took the longest was looking up the table to get the DCs.

Honestly, I could see this product being a book / screen combo. Like you would read the book to understand all the details long-form during your prep time, but use the screen with shorthand reminders (divided by type?) for adapting skill challenges on the spot.

In short I feel that the ideas themselves are intuitive enough that some sort of 'shorthand' graphic organizer would be a high leverage tool.

Cheers!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reviewed.

This is one damn fine piece of work.


Ok I have a question about the math of this product.

Basically, I'm curious how you came up with it. And my initial impression is that the "very challenging" category, which scales from DC 23 to 52 over twenty character levels, is a little low, given the manifold ways the system allows bonuses to skill checks.

And just general curiosity!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Glad I'm not the only one with questions about the numbers.

There's some easy progressions to see, such as Easy>Average>Challenging>Difficult>Very difficult going 0>+5>+2>+3>+2 all the way down the table,

And since that works all the way down, you only need to care about one of the numbers (let's use Easy for... ease) to generate the entire table.

This progression is a lot harder to work through. Take the "+5CR" starting at CR1:

1:11
6:+7
11:+8
16:+7
21:+9
26:+10

(The CR 20+ numbers are the easiest to fathom, they're all +5 CR = +10 DC)

2:13
7:+6
12:+8
17:+7
22:+10
27:+10

3:14
8:+6
13:+8
18:+8
23:+10
28:+10

4:15
9:+7
14:+8
19:+8
24:+10
29:+10

5:16
10:+8
15:+7
20:+9
25:+10
30:+10

So below CR 20 you can generally see that +5 CR ~ +7/+8 DC and above CR 20 it's +10 DC for the same CR jump.

This then begs the question of where Alex has generated those base "Easy" numbers (granted, he might have generated the Average ones and gone -5>0>+2>+3>+2 for the DCs).

So, making a few assumptions. A character is using a class skill on the check, the character has max ranks in that skill. The character starts with a +2 attribute bonus to that skill, and that bonus increases by +1 every 3 levels (to account approximately for stat boosting items and increases with level). So, a level 1 character has a +6 bonus on a skill (needing a 10 to hit a CR 1 average check, which is right on the money!).

I'm starting with the theory that "Easy" means "needs a 5 or more to succeed".

Here's the target numbers for Easy:

1: 5
2: 6
3: 5
4: 5
5: 5
6: 5
7: 5
8: 5
9: 5
10: 6
11: 7
12: 6
13: 6
14: 7
15: 6
16: 7
17: 7
18: 7
19: 8
20: 9

There's a couple of obvious break points in that table (ignoring the oddity of CR 2), it can be seen that if you get an extra +1 at level 10, and another at level 15, the numbers come out rather nicely.

I'm not sure that they function appropriately above CR 20, though, because player ability doesn't escalate, but these DCs do (player resources are vastly higher, though, so it might be a wash). I can say, though, that I have a ridiculously overpowered character in an APL 26 party who needs a 17 to succeed at an average check using his best skill. (Worth noting that the bard in the same party needs a 5 to hit a Very Difficult check with her best skill.)

So, my conclusion on the numbers is that they're basically fine for 1-20 (because the game cannot assume hyper-optimised characters), but might be worth another look at CR 20+.

Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.

1) So without going into too much detail, Easy assumes that you don't have max ranks in the skill, while Average and above assume you do. That's why Easy looks a little off (And would be insanely time consuming to explain, because not only are ability scores and bonus types changing and improving, but easy also has a different number of skill ranks in the skill at each level. That's why the "number to succeed" changes as you level up.

2) In Combat encounters, you can face monsters of higher CR and be successful. In Skill Challenges, the assumption is that you are facing Skill Challenges of your player's APL and modifying the difficulty using the suggested DCs. As a result, the DCs for level 20+ assume that you're Level 20+, which means you have mythic tears. The DCs get a little wild after that because they're accounting for mythic tiers. (Remember, the mythic rules say that roughly two-third of encounters you face should be standard for your level, and roughly one-third of encounters you face should incorporate your mythic tier when determining the CR. This means that CR 21 and high skill challenges need to assume that you are throwing mythic power into surging your skill checks, and that is SUPER variable.

Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.
rainzax wrote:

Ok I have a question about the math of this product.

Basically, I'm curious how you came up with it. And my initial impression is that the "very challenging" category, which scales from DC 23 to 52 over twenty character levels, is a little low, given the manifold ways the system allows bonuses to skill checks.

And just general curiosity!

So, part of the problem is that you can't really design DCs for things assuming that PCs with the absolute maximum bonuses will be challenged by them. If you do, then ultimately the players who DON'T have those values maxed out won't be able to participate. So the high-level skills follow a very moderate progression designed to challenge those who have "expected" levels of optimization in the system. If a player decides to optimize for skills, they're going to be as crazy-effective in skill challenges as a high-tier optimized fighter is in combat; because if your response to "I designed my character to be good at X" is to always make X harder, you end up entering an arms race with the player that devalues their choices because your tweaking makes them just as likely to succeed at your skill challenge as if they hadn't optimized and played the challenge at the "appropriate" tier.

Basically, the system is designed to encourage players to put some of their wealth and options into being better at out-of-combat scenarios; making an "Impossible" difficulty to challenge full-in optimization could have the opposite effect long-run.


How easy would it be to use this for Anachronistic Adventures? I plan on running a non-magic or very low magic game which means more skill uses. Would this be something I should look at?

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Chemlak wrote:

Reviewed.

This is one damn fine piece of work.

Thank you! I'm glad you like it.

I've really been blown away by the success of this book. If you had told me back in January when I was slaving over the finishing touches on the Skill Challenge Handbook while starting my first semester of grad school that the book was going to be Top Ten at Paizo for almost two months, and one of the highest-selling GM supplements in 3PP history, I don't know if I would have believed you.

Thank you so much, from all of us at Everyman Gaming and Rogue Genius Games!

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
How easy would it be to use this for Anachronistic Adventures? I plan on running a non-magic or very low magic game which means more skill uses. Would this be something I should look at?

You certainly could. The system uses Pathfinder's math engine, so you might want to either find ways to give PCs "enhancement bonuses" to skills of whatever, or simply choose the lower difficulty options when running your skill challenges.

But as long as your players' bonus numbers are about the same, this will work for you. And it excels at creating tense scenes for your PCs to maneuver through, like sneaking into a company office or breaking into a bank, or even trying to race through a city to a checkpoint.

Skill Challenge Handbook is designed to be module, so you can just not use any of the options that specifically reference magic, or reskin them to something else.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for the feedback on my thinking, Alex! Hugely appreciate your input, and that makes sense. I don't entirely agree with the rate at which you've accounted for mythic power use, and my players are resource-hoarders, so tend to avoid using mythic power unless they're in dire straits, and the numbers (and the rate at which high-CR skill challenges require checks) strike me as a bit wonky (but might be perfect for a.n. other gaming group). Definitely not insurmountably so, and I absolutely support this book and encourage everyone to get it. Now.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
..which means you have mythic tears.

Hardcore emo.

Contributor

Matrix Sorcica wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
..which means you have mythic tears.
Hardcore emo.

Hey, it worked in Pokemon: The First Movie, right?


Alexander Augunas wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Ok I have a question about the math of this product.

Basically, I'm curious how you came up with it. And my initial impression is that the "very challenging" category, which scales from DC 23 to 52 over twenty character levels, is a little low, given the manifold ways the system allows bonuses to skill checks.

And just general curiosity!

So, part of the problem is that you can't really design DCs for things assuming that PCs with the absolute maximum bonuses will be challenged by them. If you do, then ultimately the players who DON'T have those values maxed out won't be able to participate. So the high-level skills follow a very moderate progression designed to challenge those who have "expected" levels of optimization in the system. If a player decides to optimize for skills, they're going to be as crazy-effective in skill challenges as a high-tier optimized fighter is in combat; because if your response to "I designed my character to be good at X" is to always make X harder, you end up entering an arms race with the player that devalues their choices because your tweaking makes them just as likely to succeed at your skill challenge as if they hadn't optimized and played the challenge at the "appropriate" tier.

Basically, the system is designed to encourage players to put some of their wealth and options into being better at out-of-combat scenarios; making an "Impossible" difficulty to challenge full-in optimization could have the opposite effect long-run.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, which I feel you have in a way that makes sense to me.

A follow-up question I have is "how do you select a CR and difficulty for a groups of PCs to work backwards to create a skill challenge?"

For example, right now I am just sticking to their current APL = CR, with the "executive decision" being choosing a difficulty based upon what I think a party of APL "would" consider easy, average, challenging, difficult, or very difficult. Basically, I am not varying CR at all.

And so I lack a frame of thinking for how to differentiate when, for a party of say APL 3, would be better served by a "challenging CR 4", an "average CR 5", or an "easy CR 6", for example. Curious your thoughts on the matter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matrix Sorcica wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
..which means you have mythic tears.
Hardcore emo.

Edgelord mythic path?


It's probably fine to stick with the chart given in the book. The various difficulty levels are given for each CR, and there's no particular need to use a different CR unless you feel like your party is legitimately stronger than their "official" CR would suggest. This is particularly true if you have a large group that knows how to Aid Another.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
rainzax wrote:

A follow-up question I have is "how do you select a CR and difficulty for a groups of PCs to work backwards to create a skill challenge?"

For example, right now I am just sticking to their current APL = CR, with the "executive decision" being choosing a difficulty based upon what I think a party of APL "would" consider easy, average, challenging, difficult, or very...

You're trying to CR skill challenges the way you CR combat. Don't do that.

Skill challenges are intended for CR to ALWAYS equal APL, and for the difficulty ratings to be knobs you turn and tune to your PCs. Also, you should select skills at difficulties that make sense when you're designing the skill encounter. Don't feel like you HAVE to include each of your PC's best skills for every skill challenge, but DO keep in mind what your PCs are capable of as a group. The different types of SQs allow you to pick how your PCs are going handle the skill challenge.

For instance, let's say that you want your PCs to scale a mountain to reach a dungeon. Consider two scenarions:

Scenario A — Group Checks: If you're going to allow all of the PCs to throw success or failure on one PC (aka the standard rules for skill challenges) and you know a guy in your group has max Climb, it's probably okay to make the Climb DCs difficult or very difficult because your PCs have the check to overcome that. This puts the PC with the high bonus in the role of "The Hero" where the other PCs are mostly trying to support him or her.

Scenario B — Individual Checks: If you're going to force all of the PCs to make their own skill checks as they make their way up the mountain and no one except Charly Climbsalot invested in Climb, you're going to want to make the checks doable for the low-rank people even though it means Charly is going to ace the checks. In this situation, you're really challenging the people WITHOUT Climb rather than the people WITH Climb, and if the challenge isn't doable by everyone then the challenge is pointless; it serves only for the GM to knock his players down for their character choices, which isn't fun. Its best to allow Charlie to use his skill to trivialize the encounter for himself; it's his reward for mastering a corner-case skill that no one else had.

I hope this helps answer your question.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That makes sense, thanks.

In short, sticking to CR = APL is the way to go. Spice from there. Easy. Cheers!


I'm going to pick this up next Wednesday. I really think that I need this for the Anachronistic Adventure I'm working on. Since there isn't any magic and it's set in 1989, the characters will have to rely more on skills than anything else.

I also am working on a lower magic game and I want to see more focus on skills for an upcoming campaign I'm working on.

Out of curiosity, do you know how this works with Starfinder yet? I'm assuming that there really isn't much difference, but since I don't have either PDF yet, I don't really know for sure.

Contributor

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you know how this works with Starfinder yet? I'm assuming that there really isn't much difference, but since I don't have either PDF yet, I don't really know for sure.

I'm still under NDA about SF stuff, even if people are getting their books.

From what SF developers and Paizo designers have said on SF, it would seem that SF has a completely different Math engine from PF, which means all of the skill DCs in the tables would need adjusting. The pregen skill challenges would also need to have their skills changed to match SF's skills. Other then that (which is a pretty big "other") I would expect them to sync up fine.

I don't know how I feel about going in, switching a few numbers, and republishing this book for SF though. What do you all think? Interest or no?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Would a smaller "conversion document" with the revised DC table and amended sample challenges be possible, rather than a full-blown SF version?

The big argument against would be requiring SF-only players to buy two books instead of only one.

Personally I'd buy a full SF one.


I think having a book - or, as Chemlak suggests, a conversion table if the math is close enough - with solid numbers early on would be a fantastic thing to have. In particular, I'm thinking about the developers who might be able to make use of such a thing when designing adventures. Just think of how much better the game could be if developers had a resource for making better skill challenges pretty early on. ^^

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And ... purchased :-)

Contributor

GM Rednal wrote:
I think having a book - or, as Chemlak suggests, a conversion table if the math is close enough - with solid numbers early on would be a fantastic thing to have. In particular, I'm thinking about the developers who might be able to make use of such a thing when designing adventures. Just think of how much better the game could be if developers had a resource for making better skill challenges pretty early on. ^^

I don't know if the Paizo developers would use a third-party system for something like that.

In the meantime, I'll talk with Owen about it when I see him at Gen Con. If there's anyone who (A) knows how the DCs should progress and (B) has a vested interest in EMG putting out great stuff, its Owen. :D

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

1) I just picked this up.

2) Here's what I use for skill DC rules of thumb.

3) Check out other stuff on that site, it's superbly helpful.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Robert Brookes wrote:

1) I just picked this up.

2) Here's what I use for skill DC rules of thumb.

3) Check out other stuff on that site, it's superbly helpful.

AH! Robert Brookes bought my product! *swoon*

I actually used that chart as one of my starting points when designing my DCs for Pathfinder; the ones I end up with are different, but that's only because Pathfinder has more factors. (Other sources of inspiration include the fantastically-written research rules from Ultimate Intrigue and the "Tier DC" system in 8-00: The Cosmic Captive.\


Hey, I'm enjoying the product, but I did have a question I'm hoping someone can help me out with. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around how you "fail" some of the progress skills challenges with demerits.

BLUF: How do you fail a progress challenge that does not have the failures allowed quality, time pressure, or other mitigating factor?

By my reading, you need to obtain a certain number of successes and demerits detract from that. But it appears the challenge keeps cycling until the successes are achieved. So you can get:

success with no demerits
success with one demerit
success with two demerits or
success with three demerits, which is treated as failure with none

If getting three demerits equals a failure on the challenge, then you can get a failure with three demerits. But I can't figure out how to fail a challenge like "Meal for a Dragon", "Babysitting", or "Audience with the King". I can't find a reference to what would cause the failure.

Does the challenge only last one cycle? I could see that resulting in not having enough successes and only having one or two demerits. Is the assumption that the players could quit halfway through the challenge and fail that way? What am I missing?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is not an official answer by any stretch, but if a challenge needs X successes, but the PCs rack up X failures first, I generally rule the challenge a failure.

If a DC is high enough to make this likely, my players typically respond by instead assisting another teammate's check over attempting their own, as it is an easier check to make.

Dunno if this helps...

Contributor

"THUNDER_Jeffro"[/quote wrote:
Some questions about how the demerit mechanic works.

You're right that those challenges don't specifically have a failure clause listed, and they're lacking the usual means for failing them, like the SQs you listed. The ones listed should all probably have the time pressure SQ, and if you fail to earn any successes during that time you fail.

Let that be a lesson for you to design your own skill challenges well! I'll see if I can't get an update on the SCH together after Gen Con; right now, things are rough.


Thanks rainzax and Alexander. I appreciate the quick response. Great to know I'm not as crazy as I thought.


If a roll is either a success or a demerit, how would you end up with the max number of successes and demerits? For example, in Prosecution, completion is 7 successes. If you are at 6 successes and 3 demerits, how could one roll cause you to get both 7 successes AND 4 demerits, as is implied when it states, "If the PCs gain 4 demerits but would otherwise succeed, the success instead counts as a failure with no demerits."? I feel like I'm misunderstanding something core about the system.

Similarly, I don't get the difference between gaining advantage and gaining completion. "Making a skill check to gain an advantage counts as making a skill check to earn completion for all purposes and effects." Why are there two separate terms for this? What am I missing here?


Off the top of my head...

I believe the maximum number of successes and demerits is broadly meant to reflect the task at hand. This system isn't really meant for single-skill challenges (just use the chart for that and bam, done). It's meant for more complex things, with the actual complexity detailed largely by the story. For example, if you need to persuade at least half of a group of seven village elders, you might need a minimum of four successes - while four demerits could make them lose. (Basically, it's more art than math when these are involved.)

As for Advantage, that's specific to movement-based challenges, yeah? It counts as progress towards completion, and lets them get the extra 1+ squares of movement. Essentially, it's making progress with a bonus. All successful acquisitions of advantage count towards completion, but not all things that help you with completion give you an advantage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I just picked this up and holy crap! You put a ton of work into this. I think it will work perfectly for my Anachronistic Adventures campaign. It will be taking place in the real world during November 1989. No magic. No monsters (well, one, but it's the only one and will have to be stopped with skills more than combat). I have a lot of reading to do to see how I will use this. I know that it will be used. I only wish that I could have a hardcopy of it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Apparently the file was updated on September 7th. I was wondering what the changes were

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Raven Black wrote:
Apparently the file was updated on September 7th. I was wondering what the changes were

If I did it right, everyone should have gotten an email from Paizo with the changes. If not; they were pretty small. A few of the sample skill challenges got the time pressure SQ, and some references to chases in the verbal duels section were corrected.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Apparently the file was updated on September 7th. I was wondering what the changes were
If I did it right, everyone should have gotten an email from Paizo with the changes. If not; they were pretty small. A few of the sample skill challenges got the time pressure SQ, and some references to chases in the verbal duels section were corrected.

I don't think you did it right then. I downloaded a bunch of your files recently when I saw that they had been updated very recently, but I do not recall seeing any e-mail from Paizo saying why they were updated.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I did not receive any either, but then IIRC I never received those when 3pp products were updated ;-)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The reviews totally sold me on this one. Ordering my hardcopy from another site so I can get it in play!

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hm, that's odd that you guys didn't get the message. The DriveThruRPG message seems to have been sent fine. It could be something with Paizo's update system, but I'm not really sure. (Lj handles the products for Rogue Genius Games and all of its affiliates.)

In any case, here's a copy of the message I had sent out to the other customers.

Quote:

Hello, Everyman Gaming customers! Just a quick heads-up that an update for Skill Challenge Handbook. Within, you’ll find the following:

— Added the Time Pressure optional rule to “babysitting,” “a meal fit for a dragon,” and “an audience for a king.”

— Fixed several references to “chase” encounters in the verbal duels section.

Thanks for your support!

Alexander Augunas
Everyman Gaming LLC

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I always get info on updates of products I got from DriveThruRPG :-)

Not so for 3pp on Paizo


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'll have to check when I last got an update message from Paizo (I know I've had them in the past, but none recently). Might be that there's a bug in the update automatic processes.

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