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I'm going to preface this by saying, normally in a home campaign I'd just make a ruling and go with it, but since I'm judging Pathfinder Society I need a lil more to go on, since I can't entirely make rules calls.
I've got a player with an alchemist who is stacking modifers on to his bombs to maximize splash damage. He purchased a +1 flask thrower (from Gnomes of Golarion), he uses point-blank shot. At 4th level his splash damage is 9 (2d6 + 5 Int + 1 magic weapon + 1 point blank). Would I be in the wrong to say that the magic weapon and point blank bonuses only apply to the direct hit target, not to the splash damage?
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No, you would not be wrong at all. Splash damage is a secondary effect of the splash weapon. Like flaming on a sword, or poison on an arrow. Weapon Focus doesn't boost the DC of poison. Weapon Specialization doesn't add to the swords fire damage.
In general, with d20/PF stuff, bonuses take the shortest route, then do their thing, then stop. So magic weapon and Point Blank Shot apply to the attack against a creature and the damage that attack does to that creature. Splash, explosions, etc, are all a second step.
To be fair though, I can see where the player is coming from in his own interpretations. Enough to almost (emphasis almost) make me doubt mine. A bit of developer insight might be nice. Flagged for FAQ review.
The feats he is using do not change the the unthrown damage of the bomb, so I would say the player is incorrect and the feats only apply to the one whose directly hit with the bomb.
Not happy with my wording. A alchemist makes a bomb, as he levels he makes it more potent. so 2d6 plus int (5) with a minimum of 7. Now he takes feats that improve his ability to hit someone and do more damage (presumably because he is hitting them in an exposed area or more vulnerable area than before, not because the feats give him insight in making a stronger bomb)
Definetly a gray area but i think the intent is no to the players idea. His ability with thrown weapons goes up but bombs splash damage stays the same.
And i am playing an alchemist and didn't go that route because it seemed a small bonus. Don't think my GM would mind either way because its not much damage and the save seems to be a fairly easy one.
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And i am playing an alchemist and didn't go that route because it seemed a small bonus. Don't think my GM would mind either way because its not much damage and the save seems to be a fairly easy one.
I wasn't too terribly concerned about it, but at 4th level when they are still fighting occasional bunches of 1 HD creatures, he can clear an encounter with 1 bomb, and it doesn't matter if the creatures save or not because their health is still less than the half-damage on a save.
I don't mind characters shining, but I don't like it when they trivialize encounters either.
And i am playing an alchemist and didn't go that route because it seemed a small bonus. Don't think my GM would mind either way because its not much damage and the save seems to be a fairly easy one.I wasn't too terribly concerned about it, but at 4th level when they are still fighting occasional bunches of 1 HD creatures, he can clear an encounter with 1 bomb, and it doesn't matter if the creatures save or not because their health is still less than the half-damage on a save.
I don't mind characters shining, but I don't like it when they trivialize encounters either.
On the bright side, damage out put will definitely fall behind the rest of the part in another few levels.
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On the bright side, damage out put will definitely fall behind the rest of the part in another few levels.
See therein lies the problem with alchemist. The class rewards the front end so extremely heavily that in most games they will feel and indeed will play out to be overpowered compared to the rest of the party.
I don't have any real statistics here to back me up but experience and the like have shown that most games rarely even reach level 12. The ones that do reach that level usually only happen because they started the character off at 8-10 for the specific purpose of running a higher level game.
Up until about level 8, 2 rounds of bombs will kill off pretty much any swarm/zerg type monsters that would otherwise work to flank the party.
To answer the OP's question however- I don't believe that PB shot would work.
About the flask thrower now... that brings up an interesting point. The flask thrower is an exotic weapon and thus the character in mind would NEED to take a feat just to use it without the -4 to hit. Remember, even if he is a gnome, the racial bonus only lowers the weapon type down to martial, and he would still be non-proficient with it.
Next would be the fact that the player would need to "load" the thrower each time he wants to use it, this would require a move action that requires 2 hands and provokes AoO to do. This combined with the fact that you have to prepare the bomb before you throw it (A standard action) would mean that he has literally no time during his turn to prepare his bomb and throw it (Also a standard action) in the same round. I honestly don't think he could use the Flask thrower for his bombs at least by RAW because of how bombs defuse after the round they are made in.
So from that alone you halved the range of his bombs, and knocked 2 damage off them. Other than that I would say ready some actions against him throwing a bomb.
I think with the number of adventure paths being pumped out, you will see a lot more games going beyond 8th level.
The 1st bomb I used almost got me killed, lol. 6 stirge and me going 1st. killed one damaged the rest then got 9 points of con damage over the next few rounds. with a 10 con, that hurts. And when melee breaks out, other party members don't like being hit by your bombs. You can take a discovery to prevent this at 2nd level but it costs a discovery. Sure against large groups you might be mowing things down compared to others, at least until the wizard gets his fireball. But against a single tough opponent, your not game breaking using bombs. The small area of effect should also start to play against you. Just as a party likes to stay slightly spread out, so too should the bad guys. Making it harder to just dominate an encounter with a bomb or 2.
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Next would be the fact that the player would need to "load" the thrower each time he wants to use it, this would require a move action that requires 2 hands and provokes AoO to do. This combined with the fact that you have to prepare the bomb before you throw it (A standard action) would mean that he has literally no time during his turn to prepare his bomb and throw it (Also a standard action) in the same round. I honestly don't think he could use the Flask thrower for his bombs at least by RAW because of how bombs defuse after the round they are made in.
Well, its actually a single standard action to create AND throw the bomb. In the case of using a flask thrower, I could see allowing the alchemist to "split" the action, to create it, load it and fire it as long as it was all done in the same round (it wouldn't work for the launching crossbow from Adventurer's Armory tho, since that requires a full-round action to load).
Well, its actually a single standard action to create AND throw the bomb. In the case of using a flask thrower, I could see allowing the alchemist to "split" the action, to create it, load it and fire it as long as it was all done in the same round (it wouldn't work for the launching crossbow from Adventurer's Armory tho, since that requires a full-round action to load).
Next would be the fact that the player would need to "load" the thrower each time he wants to use it, this would require a move action that requires 2 hands and provokes AoO to do. This combined with the fact that you have to prepare the bomb before you throw it (A standard action) would mean that he has literally no time during his turn to prepare his bomb and throw it (Also a standard action) in the same round. I honestly don't think he could use the Flask thrower for his bombs at least by RAW because of how bombs defuse after the round they are made in.
I would agree that using the bomb thrower makes it a full round action as opposed to the normal standard action