David Schwartz Contributor |
James Jacobs Creative Director |
8 people marked this as a favorite. |
LittleMissNaga wrote:Hopefully we'll see better this time than another reiteration of 'just compare your end result to other monsters and adjust it if the power seems off'.That is literally how the professionals do it.
Absolutely correct.
Game design is as much art as it is science. There's not a set of immutable always-right rules that you use to make a perfect element of game design each time. If there were, then there wouldn't need to be game designers—just a recipe book for anyone to follow that would churn out perfect rules each and every time.
It doesn't work that way. And any game designer who says that artistry isn't a part of designing a game is lying. :-P
LittleMissNaga |
David Schwartz wrote:LittleMissNaga wrote:Hopefully we'll see better this time than another reiteration of 'just compare your end result to other monsters and adjust it if the power seems off'.That is literally how the professionals do it.Absolutely correct.
Game design is as much art as it is science. There's not a set of immutable always-right rules that you use to make a perfect element of game design each time. If there were, then there wouldn't need to be game designers—just a recipe book for anyone to follow that would churn out perfect rules each and every time.
It doesn't work that way. And any game designer who says that artistry isn't a part of designing a game is lying. :-P
Fair enough, I guess, though "Just have the skill of a professional and you'll do fine" is perhaps even more disappointing, as far as advice goes. That pretty much doesn't help the non-professionals at all.
I don't know what a better solution is. I'm not a pro. I guess I'll just hold out hopes that you guys can find new and more-useful ways to convey a little bit of how it's done in ways that'll help those folks who aren't already capable game designers.
Isabelle Lee |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fair enough, I guess, though "Just have the skill of a professional and you'll do fine" is perhaps even more disappointing, as far as advice goes. That pretty much doesn't help the non-professionals at all.
I don't know what a better solution is. I'm not a pro. I guess I'll just hold out hopes that you guys can find new and more-useful ways to convey a little bit of how it's done in ways that'll help those folks who aren't already capable game designers.
If it's any comfort, I wasn't a pro either. ^_^
I didn't know that I could do this, but all it took was a little effort. (And the grace of Robert Brookes, who entrusted me with some of Aethera's monster designs.)
So... some quick advice.
2) Consider what resources a party of the appropriate level has. An affliction that reguires the heal spell to counter is very dangerous on a CR 3 monster, for example.
3) If you deviate from the guidelines, consider your reasoning for doing so carefully. It's not always wrong to do so.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or start a new thread - we shouldn't completely derail this one. ^_^
Benchak the Nightstalker Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
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Dragon78 wrote:I hope the Yaddithian will be an aberration, it would be nice to have at least one aberration 0HD race.Agreed.....just not impressed with the existing visual. I hope they are far more "human" looking.....
I go the other way on this one. I think the game has more than enough "human-but-not-quite" races, I'd much rather see a full on inhuman weirdo. I really dug that picture (with its weird toothy snout and funny legs!)
Zaister |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like new 0HD races because they bring variety to the game.
I dislike new 0HD races because there are far too many poeple who do not understand the mechanics of 0HD races and the necessity of "X race as characters" rules and think the presence of these rules automatically means that the race is intended as a PLAYER character race. Sigh.
Kalindlara Contributor |
Milo v3 |
I dislike new 0HD races because there are far too many poeple who do not understand the mechanics of 0HD races and the necessity of "X race as characters" rules and think the presence of these rules automatically means that the race is intended as a PLAYER character race. Sigh.
Admittedly, according to the bestiary that's what those sections are: "Some monsters have additional sections that cover variant creatures, notes on using the monsters as PCs, methods of constructing the creature, and so on." so I can see why that misconception exists.
Kalindlara Contributor |
Dragon78 wrote:I love 0HD races but it looks like we are not getting any more then what is mentioned in the product description.What is that based on?
Possibly this. ^_^
JiCi |
I like new 0HD races because they bring variety to the game.
I dislike new 0HD races because there are far too many poeple who do not understand the mechanics of 0HD races and the necessity of "X race as characters" rules and think the presence of these rules automatically means that the race is intended as a PLAYER character race. Sigh.
I always thought that people hated new 0HD races because of 1) the "Motley Crew" image of having a rag-tag party and 2) bloating.
Options are always welcomed, not to mention that the GM has the final word on which races are allowed or not. New races also bring up new species for a certain ecosystem (especially planar), a certain region or a certain breed of creatures. For instance, we have a bunch of hags, but also the changelings related to them. Same goes with the Deep One hybrids and the Dark Folk calignis. Finally, the world is big, VERY big, as we have both planets AND planes.
Fourshadow |
Personally, I don't need any new player races...but I am not the only one buying this, so that doesn't matter so much. I just hope GM's are creating role-playing situations based on rare race choices. It may be fantasy, but heads are going to turn in "civilized" areas if you look vastly different from the "norm".
I do hope the Dawn Piper is in this one! And I do not mind if they just reprint the art from the AP--that was quite good, IMO. That is one of my favorite fey--absolutely love fey of all alignments. They make great antagonists, npc-allies/neutrals and ladies/gents-in-distress. Fey can play any and all roles in this game. It's why they are a favorite of mine.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
nighttree wrote:I go the other way on this one. I think the game has more than enough "human-but-not-quite" races, I'd much rather see a full on inhuman weirdo. I really dug that picture (with its weird toothy snout and funny legs!)Dragon78 wrote:I hope the Yaddithian will be an aberration, it would be nice to have at least one aberration 0HD race.Agreed.....just not impressed with the existing visual. I hope they are far more "human" looking.....
The nature of this creature, as set out several decades ago in Lovecraft's story, is that they CAN pass for human if they wear baggy clothing and a mask and other elements. So don't expect something full-on-inhuman.
I haven't provided the art team with ANY reference for this critter other than the description pulled directly from Lovecraft's texts, so whatever we come up with for their illustration will be recognizably a yaddithian (the tapir snout and its semi-insectile elements for sure, but also the fact that it's got a basically human shape). It's not one of Lovecraft's better-known critters, in any event—mostly because it never really played a big role in the Call of Cthulhu game, which is where most gamers cut their teeth on Lovecraft stuff these days.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
13 people marked this as a favorite. |
With 100 less monsters or so than last book, I hope too see more new monsters and few ap-bestiary re-uses
At this point, the mix is about the same as in previous Bestiaries—about 1/3 of the book are updated/reprinted monsters that have appeared in softcover format (some as far back as Second Darkness' era).
So, about 2/3 of the monsters are new.
The primary reason there's fewer monsters overall is that I'm skewing things more toward 2-page monsters—both becuase there's more high-CR monsters and they're more complex and thus benefit from having 2 pages, but also because I've always felt that we didn't leave enough space for flavor text for the monsters.
Also hoping that since this IS the sixth Bestiary that fans and customers will be a bit more accepting of the fact that there are fewer monsters than previous ones, since there ARE previous ones.
nighttree |
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nighttree wrote:I go the other way on this one. I think the game has more than enough "human-but-not-quite" races, I'd much rather see a full on inhuman weirdo. I really dug that picture (with its weird toothy snout and funny legs!)Dragon78 wrote:I hope the Yaddithian will be an aberration, it would be nice to have at least one aberration 0HD race.Agreed.....just not impressed with the existing visual. I hope they are far more "human" looking.....
The more I think on it, it's just that I think that character looks like something from a muppets show. I don't mind them looking alien...I just don't like them looking goofy :P
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Luthorne |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:The more I think on it, it's just that I think that character looks like something from a muppets show. I don't mind them looking alien...I just don't like them looking goofy :Pnighttree wrote:I go the other way on this one. I think the game has more than enough "human-but-not-quite" races, I'd much rather see a full on inhuman weirdo. I really dug that picture (with its weird toothy snout and funny legs!)Dragon78 wrote:I hope the Yaddithian will be an aberration, it would be nice to have at least one aberration 0HD race.Agreed.....just not impressed with the existing visual. I hope they are far more "human" looking.....
That's just one interpretation of them, I don't think there's official art, since Lovecraft tended to be vague in his descriptions...I think we mostly just got something like...
[quote-Through the Gates Of the Silver Key]He was, as many a night before, walking amidst throngs of clawed, snouted beings through the streets of a labyrinth of inexplicably fashioned metal under a blaze of diverse solar colour; and as he looked down he saw that his body was like those of the others—rugose, partly squamous, and curiously articulated in a fashion mainly insect-like yet not without a caricaturish resemblance to the human outline. The Silver Key was still in his grasp—though held by a noxious-looking claw.
So yeah...pretty sure there's plenty of room for Paizo to put their own spin on it. Claws, snouts, some insect-like aspects, but also somewhat humanoid, wrinkled or ridged, scaled or at least scale-like...but yeah, how those bits are assembled...well. We'll have to wait and see, no?
James Jacobs Creative Director |
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So yeah...pretty sure there's plenty of room for Paizo to put their own spin on it. Claws, snouts, some insect-like aspects, but also somewhat humanoid, wrinkled or ridged, scaled or at least scale-like...but yeah, how those bits are assembled...well. We'll have to wait and see, no?nighttree wrote:Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:The more I think on it, it's just that I think that character looks like something from a muppets show. I don't mind them looking alien...I just don't like them looking goofy :Pnighttree wrote:I go the other way on this one. I think the game has more than enough "human-but-not-quite" races, I'd much rather see a full on inhuman weirdo. I really dug that picture (with its weird toothy snout and funny legs!)Dragon78 wrote:I hope the Yaddithian will be an aberration, it would be nice to have at least one aberration 0HD race.Agreed.....just not impressed with the existing visual. I hope they are far more "human" looking.....
That's just one interpretation of them, I don't think there's official art, since Lovecraft tended to be vague in his descriptions...I think we mostly just got something like...
[quote-Through the Gates Of the Silver Key]He was, as many a night before, walking amidst throngs of clawed, snouted beings through the streets of a labyrinth of inexplicably fashioned metal under a blaze of diverse solar colour; and as he looked down he saw that his body was like those of the others—rugose, partly squamous, and curiously articulated in a fashion mainly insect-like yet not without a caricaturish resemblance to the human outline. The Silver Key was still in his grasp—though held by a noxious-looking claw.
Turns out we've had pretty good luck paying artists to make pictures of monsters for us over the past few years.
Milo v3 |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hate extra elements, OOTS captured their absurdity perfectly with the Paraelemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.
Thank you, Paizo, for not going down that road.
Except that some characters are actually screwed over with class features that do nothing if they take them because of paizo not putting Void and Wood elementals in....
Plausible Pseudonym |
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:Except that some characters are actually screwed over with class features that do nothing if they take them because of paizo not putting Void and Wood elementals in....I hate extra elements, OOTS captured their absurdity perfectly with the Paraelemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.
Thank you, Paizo, for not going down that road.
Let's not chase the bad design of the Kineticist with bad planar design.
Milo v3 |
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I see we get invertebrate version of lycanthropes with the "entothrope", but I wonder if there will be any regular lycanthropes?
I never really understood why there were lycanthropes beyond bestiary 1... since it's a template. I mean, if they didn't want it like a template they probably should have handled it in a manner similar to how James Jacobs has discussed Troops.
Let's not chase the bad design of the Kineticist with bad planar design.
I think we'll just have to disagree, I'm not really sure how Wood and Void elementals is bad planar design.