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For those players that feel that Fighter is somewhat lacking in certain circumstances, here's a quick and simple fix that's easy to apply.
Note: I only listed changes here. The rest of the fighter functions exactly as it does right now.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
(same as they are right now, this is just a reference)
Career: At level 1, a Fighter chooses one of the various possible careers that he pursued earlier in life. This choice can not be changed.
Diplomat - Gains Knowledge (nobility) and Diplomacy as class skills.
Mercenary - Gains Appraise and Sense Motive as class skills.
Surgeon - Gains Heal and Perception as class skills.
Wanderer - Gains Knowledge (geography) and Linguistics as class skills.
Mageling - Gains Knowledge (arcana) and Use Magic Device as class skills.
Gambler - Gains Bluff and Sleight of Hand as class skills.
Entertainer - Gains Acrobatics and Perform as class skills.
Historian - Gains Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (local) as class skills.
Spy - Gains Disguise and Escape Artist as class skills.
Preacher - Gains Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (planes) as class skills.
Burglar - Gains Stealth and Disable Device as class skills.
Hermit - Gains Heal and Knowledge (nature) as class skills.
Resilience: At level 1, a fighter chooses either Reflex or Will saving throws to gain the good progression. This choice can not be changed.
Improvise: A fighter of 2nd level and higher can use broken equipment without penalties. If the item in question is a weapon or a suit of armor that the fighter is proficient with, he gains a bonus equal to half his level to any check made to repair the item.
Armored Skin: At 3rd level, the fighter has learned to angle his armor in just the right way in order to absorb blows. He gains damage reduction 1 against all physical attacks when wearing light armor, 2 when wearing medium armor, and 3 when wearing heavy armor. Weapons that have an enchantment higher than the armor's enchantment will bypass this damage reduction. This damage reduction does not function in situations in which the fighter loses his armor or dexterity bonus to AC.
Quick Study: When checking to see if the fighter qualifies for a feat that has a BAB requirement, treat the fighter's BAB as 1 higher than it actually is. The effect of this ability, gained at level 4, increases by 1 at levels 8, 12 and 16.
Shake It Off: After a fighter fails a saving throw against an ability which causes a condition, he can spend a move action on his following turn and try the saving throw again. He is only given this one additional chance. Conditions affected are Shaken, Fatigued, Dazzled, Sickened and Deafened.
Aggressive Charge: When a 6th level fighter charges a creature that is within his movement speed, he can instead perform an Aggressive Charge. The fighter gains no attack bonus for this charge, and he takes a -4 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn, but he can perform a full attack action against this target.
And there we have it. Skill points make him as smart as a barbarian, he learns a couple of new skills in a fluffy way, one of his saves gets a boost which replaces the bravery bonus, he gets a bit tiny bit tankier in combat, he can punce without feat expenditure, and then gains a few really small but really neat perks, just so he can feel good about himself.
Any thoughts or comments? Please, I want some feedback on this.
I better make this post sooner rather than later...
Since this board has a limited edit timer, here's a link to the Quick Fighter Fix that's likely to be updated if need be.
Sounds pretty interesting, but I think the pounce ability might be a bit too powerful.
What if this new fighter blows away the rest of the martials?
Aggressive Charge too powerful? Possibly. I think the lack of charge bonuses and shorter range coupled with the -4 AC would offset it slightly, and I feel that a class that does nothing but bash people up in melee really should have pounce or a similar close-to-melee damage move.
As for blowing away the rest of the martials? Hmm... I don't think the paladin has much to worry about, what with his spells, special abilities, etc. Same with ranger. Monk? Everyone outperforms monk, but I have a fix for that as well. Barbarian? Well, he sort of has access to a pounce ability, but yeah, there is some risk there.
However, the outperforming factor here between this fighter and a barbarian is negligible when comparing all the current martial classes with any of the full casters. The worry is secondary at best.
Does anyone have any other ideas about adding versatility to some of the mundane classes without adding abilities that are bordering on magic?
The DR ability is too damn high.
Level 3, break out the heavy armour and you have 3 DR? Wow that is high.
Excellent career ideas, because fighters can do with a top up of skills, but also could do with a better list.
Do you think it would fit better at a later level, such as 5? I really am not convinced that a conditional DR of 3 is overpowered enough to throw it up much later than that.
And these careers are just some of the ones presented. I'd like it for there to be twice as many more, with various class skill combinations.
I get that the DR is a bit situational, and can be bypassed (more things to keep track of, sigh), but the Pf barbarian gets DR 3 at thirteenth level.
Two points:
1. That DR applies to all lethal damage, all the time, with no chance of bypassing it.
2. I refuse to be slowed down by inferior* classes when trying to improve a class.
* - as defined by the tier system, I shall ignore claims of "this is better than X, and that is wrong" if X is T4 or worse, except in very specific cases.
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My main problem is that the fighter gets all of these abilities way too rapid-fire (especially with three at first level if I read correctly). Except for level 5, there is an extra bonus every level up to 6, without giving up anything it already has. Luckily, the first two levels aren't anything so overpowering that fighter would becoming an (even more) obvious 1- or 2-level dip class, but I would still consider spreading Improvise, Armored Skin and Aggressive Charge out a bit more.
I very much agree with Loyalist, having DR 3 at level 3 is waaay too high. At that level it's still not unheard of to fight a large group of goblins (or goblins with a class level or two)--who would now have a one in four chance of doing any damage at all, if they hit. If you want to keep this, I would keep it in line with the Armor Training ability. Training 1 they get DR1 while wearing light armor. Training 2 they get DR2 when wearing medium. Training 3 DR3 when wearing heavy. Training 4...maybe add 1 or 2 to the DR of all of the armor sizes (at that point is *is* 15th level anyways). Yes it does have the "not apply to touch or flat-footed" (effectively, with some situational exceptions), but for one it is extremely rare to run into a touch attack that isn't magic--which wouldn't be subject to DR anyways. As for flat-footed, it's going to depend alot on if you DM loves throwing invisible things at you or is the frustrating kind where every battle starts with a surprise round against the party. Without that, it's not going to be much of a difference between "all the time" and the limits you gave.
Aggressive charge I also find too powerful, especially for the level it's given. I would either make it higher level (around 10 or so?) or make it say, an extra +2 on attack rolls when charging.
That being said, I do love the career bonus, as well as the increase in skill points. It covers my main issue I always have with fighters is that it's nearly impossible to do anything but fight. Yes, I know it's part of the name, but I love me some RP'ing and some clever skill using. The "no skills but athletic stuff" always turned me off, so I've only played one fighter ever and that was for a quick one-off module.
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feedback:
Career
you can check out my fighter for more career ideas (click the spoiler tab).
Resilience:
two ideas
1) maybe instead allow fighter to substitute ST bonus for either DX or WIS on his (permanent 1st-level) choice of either Reflex or Will saves?
because to be honest the whole "switch from bad to good save" bit is a little sloppy and this proposal essentially accomplishes the same goal in a way that there is precedence for in the core rules.
2) or, on a limited (resource-managed) basis, allow the fighter to roll a Fortitude save in place of another save?
the resource management could come in the form of a pool (which it seems you are avoiding) or an action-economy sacrifice. in the latter instance, he could have to declare as a swift that he is using this ability for it to be active, applying it to the next Ref/Will save (if any) made before his next turn. or, you could go the immediate action route.
i think a way to balance all your abilities power levels would be to crowd them into the action economy. this would have the side effect of rewarding tactical decisions.
Improvise:
i still think there needs to be a drawback or opportunity cost here. for the former, how about just half penalty at all times? for the latter, how about the ability is a swift action to activate?
Armored Skin:
i don't like the name of the ability. aesthetics aside, i think an expanded progression (like as part of the Armor Mastery at 3/7/11/15/19) with light/medium/heavy gradiations? example:
3rd - DR 1 with heavy
7th - DR 2 with heavy, DR 1 with medium
11th- DR 3 with heavy, DR 2 with medium, DR 1 with light
15th- DR 4 with heavy, DR 3 with medium, DR 2 with light
19th- DR 5 with heavy, DR 4 with medium, DR 3 with light
i think the above progression balances it better, and even feeds for organically into the 19th capstone...
but if you prefer your simpler method, i would again insert it into the action economy via swift action.
Quick Study:
i dont like this ability at all. but i like the name...
Shake it Off:
neat idea. what level is this gained at? i think 3rd level is fair myself.
Agressive Charge:
i agree with posters that this ability is either gained too early or could be envisioned differently. i think 8th level might be fairer, because after all it isn't a double-move charge, it's a single move charge. why 8th? because that is when 3/4 BAB classes pick up their first iterative attack (+6/+1), and so it'd be nice to see the fighter progress onto a new full-round trick as well.
Just have him get DR = to his armor training bonus and let it stack with Adamantine Armor. Increase by +1 in Heavy armor. Done.
For saves: Have the save feats stack with class training.
Iron Will is increased by the amount of your Bravery skill.
Lightning Reflexes is increased by your Armor Training Skill.
Great Fortitude is increased by your Weapon Training Bonus.
As for skill: Every level he doesn't get a Combat Bonus feat, give him a Skill Bonus feat. What he doesn't get in skill points, he'll get in feats, and the flavor will be totally different then a rogue.
==Aelryinth
Just have him get DR = to his armor training bonus and let it stack with Adamantine Armor. Increase by +1 in Heavy armor. Done.
For saves: Have the save feats stack with class training.
Iron Will is increased by the amount of your Bravery skill.
Lightning Reflexes is increased by your Armor Training Skill.
Great Fortitude is increased by your Weapon Training Bonus.As for skill: Every level he doesn't get a Combat Bonus feat, give him a Skill Bonus feat. What he doesn't get in skill points, he'll get in feats, and the flavor will be totally different then a rogue.
==Aelryinth
I like this idea to some degree at least the saves bit. I like your additional skill points and fluff class skills. The rest feels a bit to good and maybe gained to quickly.
The broken items bit is a little to strong, I think someone suggested half the value, maybe around 10+ no penalty. Shrug off is good actually but what lvl? 3rd would be good IMO. The DR is too good at that lvl, best I have seen has been the grow with armor training. The pounce charge needs to be later in lvl I think. When does the pounce bar bar get theirs? Around that lvl would be good. Otherwise, the idea is great, tempting to use as written and see what it does in an actual game.
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Like the ideas.
As others said, some of the bonuses are a bit early in the levels. I'd probably push them back a bit. Like the pounce-thing should be maybe 11th or so.
I would also modify some of the career options.
I think perception would be available in more options.
My rather similar suggestion on fighter upgrades is:
A 1st level a fighter selects 3 additional skills to become class skills.
This is a bit better and allows more freedom. I tend to think of the fighter as the customization class, so I see this as in keeping with it.
Two points:
1. That DR applies to all lethal damage, all the time, with no chance of bypassing it.
2. I refuse to be slowed down by inferior* classes when trying to improve a class.* - as defined by the tier system, I shall ignore claims of "this is better than X, and that is wrong" if X is T4 or worse, except in very specific cases.
By your own words on this DR:
"Weapons that have an enchantment higher than the armor's enchantment will bypass this damage reduction. This damage reduction does not function in situations in which the fighter loses his armor or dexterity bonus to AC."
I agree with Dazz. Good job on the skills and opening them up Boz.
If I could make a comment about pf, it may help your project. Paizo gave us more special abilities through the re-done classes, as compared to 3.5. They are a bit supercharged and there is a lot to keep track of. The class tables all seem bloated now, as if they can barely contain all the changes. Some classes are worse than others in regards to bloat and balance is also off in pf. Pf meant well, and it is attractive and got people in, but too much of a good thing can be too much.
Now I see what you are trying to do, but this is way too much for low levels. You can consider how good you want a class to be, how balanced to existing classes. I would say the extremely powerful barbarian with its class bonuses and rage powers is not an inferior class to the pf fighter, but at level 3 your version of the fighter has got a level 13 barb ability.
I do actually like your variant pounce though, because of the serious hit to AC. Checks and balances.
Soak systems are great, so I think he wants the fighter to be the master of soaking and taking hits.
You can make the fighter the master of soak easily.
Every round, a fighter gains an amount of temporary Soak equal to his class level. Any damage taken comes out of this temporary soak first. This Soak does not stack with itself, but returns to full value at the beginning of every round.
i.e. like DR, only against everything.
==Aelryinth
Mmmmm damage sponge.
@ Dazz
The "abilities" he gains at level 1, well... They're not really abilities as such. They're an expansion on the basic class chassis; they improve one save to a built-in level-appropriate amount, and they add two class skills.
And yes, there is a bonus at every level without giving up anything. This is working as intended; had I given the fighter stuff while taking away other stuff, it would not have been a buff. The fighter needs a buff.
@ Everyone that thinks DR3/* is OP at the level it was introduced: Do I need to start listing all the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid/oracle/magus/whatever spells that provide DR at these early levels?
Please don't look at an ability and say "this is bad because it is better than what another martial class has". I'm trying to improve martial classes here; that attitude does not help at all.
However, your fears have been noted, and Armored Skin has been delayed by one level.
@ rainzax
Thanks for the career ideas. I'm working to improve choice by having each skill appear in at least two career choices, but coming up with mechanically AND thematically good options is not easy. For example, the current WIP list of added careers includes:
Sapper - Gains Disable Device and Use Magic Device as class skills.
Contortionist - Gains Acrobatics and Escape Artist as class skills.
Conniver - Gains Bluff and Disguise as class skills.
Arcanist - Gains Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) as class skills.
Pickpocket - Gains Appraise and Sleight of Hand as class skills.
And I am reasonably convinced that Sapper is better than most other career choices due to the utility it provides. Not all skills are equal, sadly. That's why I don't have Diplomacy and Sense Motive on the same list, for example.
And I don't see how "bad save becomes good" is sloppy compared to changing governing ability scores or limited-use ability to roll something as something else.
@ Jack Rift
I haven't given Improvise much thought after I added it here. My main goal with that ability was to make fighter less vulnerable to sunder maneuvers (which COMPLETELY shut him down INSTANTLY), and to make him less dependant on a Mend spell.
@ kyrt-ryder
I agree, a class should be able to do "its thing" as early as possible. Take Pathfinder Society for example: if a class or build is not entirely functionable, playable and fun by level 5 or, at the latest, 7, it is no good. Nobody will play a character for thirty sessions in order to have six sessions of fun before retiring.
@ drbuzzard
I intentionally avoided the "choose any 3 class skills" approach, because some are clearly better than others, when the fighter's role is taken into account. However, 26 lists, so that each career-available skill appears exactly twice, should be enough as far as breadth of choice is concerned.
@ 3.5 Loyalist
A melee fighter is exactly that: the master of dealing AND taking damage. No plan survives contact with the enemy, so the fighter builds both for high survivability and high damage potential. He doesn't have spells, he doesn't have self-buffs, he doesn't have stealth, what he has is his armor and his weapon. He is supposed to be REALLY good at using BOTH.
I have updated some things in the original editable thread, so feel free to take a look.
You can make the fighter the master of soak easily.
Every round, a fighter gains an amount of temporary Soak equal to his class level. Any damage taken comes out of this temporary soak first. This Soak does not stack with itself, but returns to full value at the beginning of every round.
i.e. like DR, only against everything.
==Aelryinth
This reminds me of the Knight Class from 3.5.
IMO fighters don't need more skills per se, but what options they have are pretty limited. I think adding perception and survival are good starts.
I'm also a fan of changing the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats to apply to damage types rather than to particular weapons, it would definitely widen the options, though you would have to make 2 different versions for ranged and melee weapons.
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The armoured warrior from ultimate combat already provides the DR you're suggesting. It kicks in at 5th level, but costs weapon training. It's pretty powerful, and nicely balanced as it is, so I wouldn't be playing with that.
I like the idea of the background soldiering to open up more skills, but think mageling shouldn't be there really (personal preference)
I like shake it off, but would get rid of dazzled and deafened from that list. Those are more about sensory deprivation rather than being tough enough to shake it off.
I think most people like the idea of a fighter with 4 skill points.
I think the rest is kind of superfluous given all the other material available to build fighters now days.
I'd add perception to the skill list since the NPC warrior class gets it.
@ Salamandyr
The problem is with Combat Expertise, not the fighter itself. And I think outright going around certain prerequisites in order to qualify for feats, as opposed to just qualifying early, is unbalanced, and might have unforseen consequences.
I do agree that armor mastery right now is a bit... semi-useless. Maybe I'll make a non-quick fighter fix later that addresses this issue by giving a choice at levels at which the fighter doesn't gain a bonus feat. The choice would be between the current armor training, weapon training, certain archetype abilities and what not. Not yet sold on it, though.
Resilience replaces Bravery. Keeping resilience as a bonus to saves and bravery as a bonus to fear is unneeded. A strong save is both more reliable AND more elegant.
@ master marshmallow
Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization changes would be feat changes, not fighter specific changes. Do I think they need some help? Sure. But they need a very careful approach, because they don't need much.
@ Wrath
The armor master gains DR/- at level 5. This is quite different from the DR that this version gets. He gains it later and loses things because it is both more powerful AND increases with level.
ADDITIONALLY, armor master, the same as fighter, is a T5 class. This is a fix. The point is to buff the fighter. Improve it. Move it up a tier or so. Saying "this ability that you included in your attempt to increase the viability of the class is more viable than what this or another class of the same level of effectiveness gets" is not a constructive comment.
@ AnnoyingOrange
Just checked, the warrior does not get perception. You almost had me worried there for a moment.
Anycakes, how's this for a few new career options?
Saboteur - Gains Disable Device and Use Magic Device as class skills.
Funambulist - Gains Acrobatics and Escape Artist as class skills.
Swindler - Gains Bluff and Disguise as class skills.
Stargazer - Gains Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) as class skills.
Pickpocket - Gains Appraise and Sleight of Hand as class skills.
Messenger - Gains Diplomacy and Linguistics as class skills.
Custodian - Gains Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (nature) as class skills.
Jester - Gains Perform and Knowledge (nobility) as class skills.
Confessor - Gains Knowledge (religion) and Sense Motive as class skills.
Archaeologist - Gains Knowledge (history) and Stealth as class skills.
Navigator - Gains Knowledge (geography) and Perception as class skills.
These, together with the ones from before, ensure that the player has a choice between two careers for each skill he might want, except for spellcraft and fly. However, this second batch might have some balance issues; Saboteur, for example, might be a bit stronger than some other choices.
@ master marshmallow
Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization changes would be feat changes, not fighter specific changes. Do I think they need some help? Sure. But they need a very careful approach, because they don't need much.
Changes to feats that are specific to fighters I think does count as a start on the class, because the only other classes that will take them are classes that have their levels treated as fighter.
There also needs to be more clarification as to what we want the fighter to do, because it looks like we have a bunch of different versions that you intend to be the main version of the class, with what? Six options to change your class skills up? It seems you feel the fighter needs more skills to be a 'better' class. I don't necessarily agree.
Fighter's aren't a skilled class, I think giving them all these skill options takes away what makes them fighters, give them Perception or something, sure, but for the most part fighters want to get something that will help them with their concepts. Most of the skills I can see a fighter wanting are the knowledge skills for identifying enemies and their weaknesses, Perception to find and see them more easily, and save the list of optional skill sets for an archetype or something.
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@the Boz, actually what I was suggesting was to use the mechanics from the Armour Master rather than yours. They're better mechanics than what you suggested and balance nicely with power. Perfectly constructive as far as I can tell.
Probably worded badly from my end originally.
I'd like to see the requirements for combat manoeuvres feats tied to only one stat for fighters. Possibly allow fighters IMF a certain level to ignore the intelligence requirement for improved disarm etc. if you make it level 5 or so, it avoids the simple dip to get around the problem.
Having said that, I don't feel fighter are T5 so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Cheers.
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Sorry for not responding, had to finish up some stuff like college, get a job, etc.
I took all the feedback from this thread and two other places, and I crunched through it, and what came out was this:
Fighter Full Fix
Biggest new changes:
1. Versatility. It is by far the biggest change now. Floating feat goodness, yay!
2. Buffed Walk It Off (and renamed, as there is a feat named Shake It Off) with 10th and 15th level progression that includes more conditions.
3. Took all the DR advice, folded all that armor and weapons training into a single, flexible feature. Also retooled the capstone.
4. Fighter now starts with an exotic weapon proficiency. Yay!
I love the imagery conjured up from the "preacher" fighter. Also the "spy" should have bluff instead of escape artist.
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my 2 cp
Versatility
too good at 1st level! (DIP). i would bump it to 4th level at least. or consider allowing the 4th level ability to 'retrain' feats 1/level become 1/day. basically you should check out the vancian fighter thread if you haven't already. my working version looks like this:
Bonus Feats (Alternate):
At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level,
Walk It Off
this is a neat idea. especially because the implications for action economy scale with the severity of the condition itself. is Shake It Off a swift action? love the name(s)!
Aggressive Charge
another neat idea. but i don't like the name nor nominate a replacement. i think the -4 AC for full attack (at +0) is fair. it even has another drawback (that a clever foe can brace). maybe an additional drawback can be that the fighter cannot make attacks of opportunity on a round they make an aggressive charge? then, you could remedy that drawback with a feat which restores the privilege? just an idea.
i like your change to weapon proficiencies, and also, may i propose:
Vocation (alternate):
A 1st level fighter may trade out armor, shield, and/or exotic weapon proficiencies 1-for-1 in exchange for specialized training in a skill, promoting it to his list of class skills. If he trades out armor proficiencies, he must first trade out heavy armor before he can trade out medium armor, and medium armor before light armor. If he trades out shield proficiencies, he must first trade out tower shields before he can trade out regular shields. These exchanges are permanent.
This is perfect. Also very moddable without adding any archetypes, thanks to how the trainings work.
That is one of the overarching goals of my class fixes; to fold in all of the archetypes into optional class features that the character gets during progression.
The only thing I kinda sorta don't like is agressive charge, although I do get that that's the way PF works, so it is just needed to be able to get a full attack.
I am of the opinion that all of the five major frontline classes (barbarian, fighter, monk, ranger, paladin) should have some type of access to a charge>full attack ability. However, while I want this ability to be optional for most of these, I think that the fighter really should have it automatically.
I do feel like if, say, Vital Strike didn't suck it wouldn't be needed though. In general, after this, the only thing fighter needs is fixing feats that suck to make more builds available.
I like the skill focus feat autoscale thing, and if I ever get around to redoing some of the feats, I think that is direction they'll go. So weapon focus automatically becomes greater weapon focus at BAB +8, weapon specialization automatically becomes greater weapon specialization at BAB +12, etc. But there are only a few of these minor outliers, I do not think that most feats need a thorough rework.
EDIT: one more thing. I think the trainings should probably be forced to alternate. Something like "you can not select the same training twice in a row". I know it probably wouldn't be OP, but it feels a bit bad to me to be able to dump everything into the same training when the point here should be versatility. That's just an opinion though.
The thought has crossed my mind, but I ultimately decided against it. Grabbing a +9 attack and damage with a chosen weapon group (+18 at level 20) at the expense of all the other bonuses really should be an option, I think.
I love the imagery conjured up from the "preacher" fighter. Also the "spy" should have bluff instead of escape artist.
I was having so much fun thinking up those! Stuff like preacher, mercenary, and gambler are my favorites.
Bluff and disguise is already a combination of the swindler... but you're right. Maybe I should rename the spy into infiltrator or something similar?Versatility
too good at 1st level! (DIP). i would bump it to 4th level at least. or consider allowing the 4th level ability to 'retrain' feats 1/level become 1/day. basically you should check out the vancian fighter thread if you haven't already.
Maybe I should have made the wording more clear; it only works with fighter's bonus feats, not all feats or all bonus feats any of the other classes could get. So if you dip fighter for Versatility, you get just two feats. And what I really wanted is for the fighter to have an actual class feature right at 1st level.
I did check out the vancian fighter, just like I did many of the other fighter fixes. I'm not sure I like the vancian feats on a fighter. Some other class? Sure, in order to compete with the many caster martials out there, I could see that being a thing, in some limited way... but changing feats by selecting ANY without having to learn them (like a wizard adds spells to his spell book)? Not sure I like it.
Walk It Off
this is a neat idea. especially because the implications for action economy scale with the severity of the condition itself. is Shake It Off a swift action? love the name(s)!
Walk It Off is a move action, Shake It Off is a teamwork feat that just increases saves when people stick together.
I should also probably make it more clear that walk it off does NOT remove any other effects of the ability, just the condition. Not sure, what do you think?Aggressive Charge
another neat idea. but i don't like the name nor nominate a replacement. i think the -4 AC for full attack (at +0) is fair. it even has another drawback (that a clever foe can brace). maybe an additional drawback can be that the fighter cannot make attacks of opportunity on a round they make an aggressive charge? then, you could remedy that drawback with a feat which restores the privilege? just an idea.
That type of penalize and restore I don't particularly like. Especially because it's a somewhat minor effect, but still needs to be kept track of, and it could have some bad interactions with other feats.
I have toyed with the idea of making the AC penalty be -2 + (-2) for each additional attack, so that would be -4 at level 6 and 2 attacks, -6 at level 11 and three attacks, and -8 at level 16 and four attacks... I decided against it, I think it would be too harsh, especially when compared with the monk version I already have (it's a 2pt ki power) or the ranger (full attack against favored enemy) or paladin (full attack with smite evil, but only until you miss) versions I'm planning on.i like your change to weapon proficiencies, and also, may i propose:
Vocation (alternate)
I definitely do not want to make vocation optional; especially if the option is between in and out of combat utility.
At first I didn't like the packages to pick out the fighter's skill set, but in reality, the cavalier has the same feature so I'm fine with it. Only thing I really have issue with is Quick Study, it seems kind of useless, even if his BAB keeps scaling up until lvl 16, what good is an effective BAB of 20? What feats would he even qualify for?
How much faster, because at level 4, it doesn't open up anything because nothing to my knowledge requires BAB 5, by level 7 I can take Improved Critical or Greater Weapon Focus a level early which is okay I guess, but at level 8 I count as level 10, so by level 9 I get access to a couple of feats, and at level 10 I can take Greater Weapon Specialization early. Sure, the critical feats that require BAB 16+ I get access to by level 13, but to be honest working a build around feats taken that far down really doesn't make it that attractive as a class feature. Maybe if the initial BAB boost was higher at level 4, then scaled by one at later levels (to a maximum of 20 at level 16).
Should this homebrew ever incorporate epic the first class feature they would get should be an augmented version of this with this fix imo.
It also increases your ability scores by an equal amount. As far as I know, the most OP thing it enables you to do is to get a Vital Strike of a higher attack number earlier (getting it as early as level 4), but... that's just Vital Strike, so whatever.
It enables you to take feats that require higher Int or other ability scores, for some mysterious reason. Or to not bone your build when you want dex-intensive stuff (TWFing)...
I will likely buff it to include both the bonus feats AND the versatile feats, but that leaves me with a question: Why would you take a bonus feat instead of a versatile pair? And, more importantly, is this even a bad thing?
My current thoughts are aimed at restructuring Quick Study to function like this:
Quick Study (Ex): A fighter's skill in combat is equal parts natural talent and endless hours of practice. At 4th level and thenafter, the fighter starts to develop greater and greater efficiency with marital studies.
First, when checking to see if he qualifies for a bonus feat (but not a versatile feat) that has a BAB or ability score requirement, a 4th level fighter treats his BAB and relevant ability score as 2 higher than they actually are. All other prerequisites are unaffected. The effect of this ability increases by 1 every three levels after 4th (+3 at 7th, +4 at 10th, and so on).
Second, every time a fighter gains a fighter bonus feat or a versatile feat, he can choose to learn a new fighter bonus feat or versatile feat(s) in place of the same that he has already learned. He can not exchange a bonus feat for a versatile feat this way, or vice versa. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat or a single pair of versatile feats at any given opportunity, and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Third, the fighter can spend an entire day in rigorous training with a new weapon or maneuver. Doing so allows him to change the weapon or combat maneuver for all the feats that specify such. For example, a fighter with weapon focus (greatsword) and weapon specialisation (greatsword) could spend the day training with a greataxe in order to lose his weapon focus (greatsword) and weapon specialisation (greatsword) feats, and gain weapon focus (greataxe) and weapon specialisation (greataxe) instead. That same fighter could spend an additional day to change his improved trip and greater trip for improved sunder and greater sunder. The fighter must meet all prerequisites for these new feats, and he is limited to exchanging like for like; elephant stomp can not be traded for felling escape, for example.
Well, that's the idea bouncing around in my head right now. Still not happy enough with it to commit it to e-paper.
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pretty solid. maybe a bit low level on when he gains some abilities imo. Quick study is the only ability i have a problem with, increased BAB with the fighter bonus feat retraining is really good. But if i had to have 2 concerns, maybe make the DR from armored skin only apply when using a shield, to encourage shield use.
I would make Quick study: @ lv 9 a fighter is proficient in any weapon he spends 30 minutes practicing with, including specific improvised weapons. At level x, he can practice mentally and it only takes him 1 minute.
"What are you thinking about Steve? that wench?"
"nah, I am trying to decide which is better to kill an orc with: the barkeeps glass eye or his lazy cat's tail. I think the glass eye just does a bit better..."
I like the general idea, GeneticDrift. I was hoping to fold the Cad archetype into the Equipment Training option more thoroughly. Take once, you gain proficiency with improvized weapons and unarmed strikes, as well as the usual broken/repair bonuses. Take twice, get 19 crit range for improvized and unarmed, as well as the usual broken/repair bonuses. Take three times, gain x3 crit multi on improvized and unarmed, as well as the broken/repair bonuses. Something like that.
Yeah, I kinda have a dozen more ideas for this, and will probably reject like 90% of those :p Will probably open a new thread on this when it gets ripe enough for a full Fighter 2.0, like I did for my monk.
The great feat rework that I've gotten myself into has been taking up most of my time so far. It has given me new insights into the state of the fighter, and where I want to take him. I now really like the second and third effects of the Quick Study ability as explained above, but I'll remove the BAB functionality of the first effect. This will tie in nicely with the feat consolidation and weapon group reforming (so that they work with weapon focus/specialization, etc).
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i like the direction of the GeneticDrift.
consider:
Quick Study (alternate):
A Xth level fighter is considered proficient with any simple, martial, or exotic weapon. He further suffers no penalty to attack rolls when using an improvised weapon. Upon acquiring this ability, he may swap out any Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats he has for corresponding Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization feats, so long as he meets those prerequisites normally. These changes are permanent.
The fighter may spend 1 hour practicing with a weapon to extend all benefits gained from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats onto the weapon he is practicing with. He may do the same by practicing with at least three weapons from the same weapon group to extend all bonuses from one of those weapons to the whole group. These effects last for 24 hours.
Made yet another version. This is now getting very close to the point at which I'd feel comfortable calling it Fighter 2.0 and being done with it.
As before, the Fighter Full Fix is available here.
Changes include two new vocations replacing two old ones (guard and missionary replacing confessor and navigator), expanded Quick Study functionality, improved and renamed Armored Skin into Defensive Training, improved Shield Training and Ranged Combat Training, slightly reworked weapon groups (including three new ones; defensive, hooks and medium blades), and a completely reworked and renamed Equipment Training into Improvisation Training.
Note: the new version uses some things from the great feat rework that I'm working on. This includes weapon groups as targets for focus/specialisation. It is not a required component, and replacing groups for specific weapons is trivial, but I just thought I'd point it out.
I hope you guys like it, and I'm looking forward to your feedback and ideas.
Career is good for everyone. I will just assume they pursue these while the others make potions during the down time. A pounce like feat could just be available to both fighter and monk.
I already gave my monk a ki power that allows him to pounce. It might be a bit too good, I'll have to do some more testing to see how it would work. I plan to do the same for rangers and paladins, and make the barbarian's Beast Totem pounce ability a stand-alone rage talent. However, the ranger, paladin, and barbarian "fixes" will be very limited in scope, likely included in a single thread, with just a single page of content each.
Meanwhile, I was thinking about expanding the fighter's training options with something along the lines of these two:
Offensive Support Training
Fighters that are used to acting in organized groups will often train hard to increase the capabilities of the entire group, not just themselves. A fighter with this training option grants a +1 bonus to attack and CMB rolls, as well as caster level checks to beat a target's spell resistance, to all adjacent allies, as well as those adjacent to any enemy that the fighter is adjacent to. The bonus increases by +1 every time the fighter selects this option. Multiple sources of this bonus do not stack, only the highest bonus applies.
Defensive Support Training
Instead of emphasizing the group's offensive abilities, some group leaders work on bolstering a group's defensive abilities instead. A fighter with this training option grants a +1 bonus to AC, CMD, and all saves to all adjacent allies, as well as those adjacent to any enemy that the fighter is adjacent to. The bonus increases by +1 every time the fighter selects this option. Multiple sources of this bonus do not stack, only the highest bonus applies.
Should probably find a nice place to point out that training option effects only work while fighter is up and about, and not while he's helpless or something silly like that.
What would the point of selecting trainings and specializing be if they all autoscaled up? It would increase the fighter's power in combat, but the "power" aspect of combat has never been the fighter's main concern...