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A friend of mine played the new 7th level Hunter pregen at a convention this past weekend where I also played. After watching the 7th level Hunter PFS pregen in action and reading over the sheet, I'm not sure what the writer was thinking. Feat-wise and skill-wise, it seems to be fine. Ability score-wise I would have swapped some points (Str is 10, Con is 14), but that's just how I play.
Equipment-wise, this pregen is atrocious! Masterwork composite longbow (no strength bonus), a club, and masterwork studded leather armor. The pregen has a lot of support items: six different wands, and several kinds of magic arrows (but just one of each). But a 7th level character with no magic armor, no magic weapon and it's backup weapon is a club?! I don't get it.
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Thanks for your feedback! It's great to hear more thoughts on the pregens.
In my opinion, a +1 weapon is not a worthwhile investment over a MW weapon and a backup oil of magic weapon for DR/magic situations when she doesn't want to use a special arrow (she has lots of ghost salt for incorporeals, which is even better than magic). Remember that she does have the swarmbane clasp, Dex and Wis items (the Wis booster puts her from 14 to 16 and grants an additional 3rd level spell, so it's a particular good level for her to buy it), and the menacing amulet of mighty fists for Leryn. Those are all a good value compared to +1 to damage. I'm guessing that the number of times that she gets three cheers for her swarmbane clasp or oil of daylight will be worth it, but only time will tell.
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We played in an adventure, and I don't think it was unreasonable, where some of the bad guys had DR/magic. Oh, and I'd take the +1 TH from a magic bow (along with the +1 damage) to be more effective with my Deadly Aim which adds +4 damage (and -2 TH).
As for the menacing amulet of might fists, it's useless. If Adowyn (the Hunter) is adjacent to a foe, she is must be using her club, as a bow does not threaten. She doesn't have the AC to be adjacent to CR 7+ creature swinging just a club.
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Got it. And the oil of magic weapon and unique arrows weren't enough? The magic bow doesn't have +1 to hit over a MW bow. If it did, it would surely be worth the price!
The menacing amulet is meant to help Leryn and the melee PCs, not Adowyn herself. +2 to hit is quite a boon. Adowyn could be more personally effective if she focused all her gear on herself, but with the +2 (CL 8) wand of greater magic fang and the amulet, Leryn should be an effective force against DR/magic foes. The character was built around working in a team, so agreed that the amulet is definitely really bad in the case thar the team had no one but Leryn who wanted to melee.
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Damn.. a +2 Greater Magic Fang for a pet pc? yeah..she's way under set up. (snark).
That, in and of itself, is hellishly nasty. Add in some other things @ 7th level and you'll be scary as a team player.
I think she is a great addition to any team, but I am hugely biased, as I am the author, so I'm really grateful to hear Swiftbrook's analysis, especially since it was backed by a playtest experience. I based her selections on a combination of backstory (would have probably had to deal with swarms in her backstory in the Tangle) and ability to help out in a variety of situations. She will usually have 22 AC, which isn't frontline material but is reasonable for a 7th archer, I thought. If I had a bit more cash, I would certainly have gone for the +1 armor to raise that to 23.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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I think she is a great addition to any team, but I am hugely biased, as I am the author, so I'm really grateful to hear Swiftbrook's analysis, especially since it was backed by a playtest experience. I based her selections on a combination of backstory (would have probably had to deal with swarms in her backstory in the Tangle) and ability to help out in a variety of situations. She will usually have 22 AC, which isn't frontline material but is reasonable for a 7th archer, I thought. If I had a bit more cash, I would certainly have gone for the +1 armor to raise that to 23.Damn.. a +2 Greater Magic Fang for a pet pc? yeah..she's way under set up. (snark).
That, in and of itself, is hellishly nasty. Add in some other things @ 7th level and you'll be scary as a team player.
Don't get me wrong.. first time I looked at her 'backstory' she was 'all support'. That was clear. A Hunter can be ranged, melee or a mix, depending on the build but what I saw was more ranged/team support.
I like the stuff I saw in the game day module had me hopeful for a lot of flexiblity. Harsk isn't 'optimized' but he isn't very good at his role either. I like the Swashbuckler, Warpriest and Bloodrager in it..and have been waiting ever since to see what the rest look.
So.. ahead of time RE.. thanks for taking the time to make the Hunter.
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I think she is a great addition to any team, but I am hugely biased, as I am the author, so I'm really grateful to hear Swiftbrook's analysis, especially since it was backed by a playtest experience.Didn't know you were the author.
The adventure was Legacy of the Stonelord, tier 7-8. Table makeup: 7th Archeologist (me), Cleric (8th), Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple (7th), and the first time PFS player who I brought. She wanted to play an archer and her eyes lit up when she saw the Hunter Adowyn. Just had a little time to look over the sheet before we began to play. Most of the wands didn't get used (found on the sheet) until about 90 minutes into the game. We had no one for Leryn to buddy with. Oh, and we didn't run into any of the encounters with a 4-person party adjustment.
Rogue, so why not a Strength of 12 and +1 on the bow for damage? She's not a frontliner, no melee weapon, and could easily have a Con of 12 or 13. I know, it's a min/max type of question.
Finally, I guess I expect to be able to pick up a pregen it's ready to go. Adowyn, is a support person who needs (almost must have) a melee PC in the party to have Leryn work with. I expected Aowyn to work with Leryn, to have some kind of teamwork theme or teamwork feats working together.
Just My Thougths
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I think she is a great addition to any team, but I am hugely biased, as I am the author, so I'm really grateful to hear Swiftbrook's analysis, especially since it was backed by a playtest experience.Didn't know you were the author.
The adventure was Legacy of the Stonelord, tier 7-8. Table makeup: 7th Archeologist (me), Cleric (8th), Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple (7th), and the first time PFS player who I brought. She wanted to play an archer and her eyes lit up when she saw the Hunter Adowyn. Just had a little time to look over the sheet before we began to play. Most of the wands didn't get used (found on the sheet) until about 90 minutes into the game. We had no one for Leryn to buddy with. Oh, and we didn't run into any of the encounters with a 4-person party adjustment.
Rogue, so why not a Strength of 12 and +1 on the bow for damage? She's not a frontliner, no melee weapon, and could easily have a Con of 12 or 13. I know, it's a min/max type of question.
Finally, I guess I expect to be able to pick up a pregen it's ready to go. Adowyn, is a support person who needs (almost must have) a melee PC in the party to have Leryn work with. I expected Aowyn to work with Leryn, to have some kind of teamwork theme or teamwork feats working together.
Just My Thougths
Thanks for the feedback! It'll help me in future character making. Playing it out in an actual game is the only way to see how it really goes in the trenches, so I'm grateful for your analysis. I'm going to try
So the archaeologist was a ranged build and the dragon disciple didn't melee either? Ranged arch is a pretty good combo, but I'm more surprised by the disciple. Why go dragon disciple over pure sorcerer if you aren't going to go into melee.
I'd like to think that some of the effect was due to an unusual party makeup and situation: Adowyn is ranged, so other than the pet, there was no character who would go melee (and the enemies didn't even get to melee range with anything except Leryn, allowing a backup melee to flank)--Leryn grants a +2 additional flanking bonus, and one of Adowyn's feats also gives her large bonuses to archery if Leryn is flanking with a melee character. This also works with Wounded Paw, which is Leryn and Adowyn's two-person tag-team combo. With her ghost salt, cold iron, and adamantine, she should have been in good shape for most of the DRs, but if the wands went unnoticed, those might have too.
I guess it means that you guys were a really solid and effective team, though, if you could manage to take out enemies before they could pass Leryn, so since I know that Stonelords can be a challenge for 4, you guys did great!
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(she has lots of ghost salt for incorporeals, which is even better than magic)
Note that ghost salts are a weapon blanch, which take 1 full round to apply over a "hot flame." I, personally, have experienced table variation over what constitutes a hot flame (GM thought that it had to be like a campfire or blacksmith's forge, making these out-of-combat only). Regardless of what you think of that GM's interpretation, I think that pregens should be built to have next to no chance of being subject to TV.
Even if the GM lets this happen in combat, it's two rounds of blanching your weapon (move action to retrieve blanch, standard action to pour it on your weapon, full round over flame) - during which time you could be hitting with your magic weapon for 50%. It takes 4 full rounds (starting from beginning of combat) for blanch damage to catch up with magic weapon damage, on average. The only way blanch is better is if you just apply it at the beginning of the scenario to some arrows, just in case. But the average pregen player probably isn't going to do that.
Along those same lines: unique arrows. I haven't seen the character sheet, but if these are single units of ammunition with special materials or magic properties, I think it's a bit misleading to new players who will then think they can buy these arrows in singles, rather than in batches.
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You can apply ghost salt to arrows and it will persist on them in between scenarios The pregen having them on the arrows might be noted, or DMs may want to point out to the players to get some smores at the start of the adventure.
Since ALL fire is hot, I assume that the text means a pretty significant amount of heat, not a candle.
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You can apply ghost salt to arrows and it will persist on them in between scenarios The pregen having them on the arrows might be noted, or DMs may want to point out to the players to get some smores at the start of the adventure.
Since ALL fire is hot, I assume that the text means a pretty significant amount of heat, not a candle.
It is called out to have been ghost salt blanched already before the scenario, yes. There is text that explains what ghost salt means to the player.
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*** Spoiler Omitted ***
I guess it means that you guys were a really solid and effective team, though, if you could manage to take out enemies before they could pass Leryn, so since I know that Stonelords can be a challenge for 4, you guys did great!
Stonelords experience:
Also, the Hunter pregren is two sided. There is a lot to read and if you don't know the rules very well, it's difficult to play and easy to miss stuff. She still had a lot of fun!
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*** Spoiler Omitted ***
I guess it means that you guys were a really solid and effective team, though, if you could manage to take out enemies before they could pass Leryn, so since I know that Stonelords can be a challenge for 4, you guys did great!
Stonelords experience: ** spoiler omitted **
Also, the Hunter pregren is two sided. There is a lot to read and if you don't know the rules very well, it's difficult to play and easy to miss stuff. She still had a lot of fun!
I'm glad she had a lot of fun! It sounds like the perfect setup for her to show off her
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Rogue, question: Was this Adowyn pregen developed for PFS or for a advanced class guide NPC book? My guess is both. This pregen has the feel of a well thought out character with depth. It uses and mixes a lot of mechanics from the class, with feats and equipment. As such, it is harder for a new player to pick it up in a short time and run her effectively. There are many items and choices and you need to have a good understanding of the rules to make them work the way they are intended.
Note: Never saw Versatile Weapon. That would have solve some problems.
I still think you should make a few minor changes as this is a 7th level character. Give her at least a masterwork melee weapon, and maybe some better armor.
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Rogue, question: Was this Adowyn pregen developed for PFS or for a advanced class guide NPC book? My guess is both. This pregen has the feel of a well thought out character with depth. It uses and mixes a lot of mechanics from the class, with feats and equipment. As such, it is harder for a new player to pick it up in a short time and run her effectively. There are many items and choices and you need to have a good understanding of the rules to make them work the way they are intended.
Note: Never saw Versatile Weapon. That would have solve some problems.
I still think you should make a few minor changes as this is a 7th level character. Give her at least a masterwork melee weapon, and maybe some better armor.
Yeah, versatile weapon was also there for an option for a longer duration, and to help with DR/slashing. More and more, I do think that a big part of what happened there was flat out this: A new player was playing a level 7 pregen in Legacy of the Stonelords, one of the most time-crunched scenarios possible. Level 7, with a pregen of any kind (especially one that uses a pet, teamwork feats, and spells) is going to be complicated for a newbie no matter what. With a time-crunch like Stonelords, things are going to be missed. And it's a demanding scenario too, with lots of tricks and things required. There was not really a way that it was going to be an easy experience for that newbie, no matter which pregen she picked up.
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I'm glad she had a lot of fun! It sounds like the perfect setup for her to show off her ** spoiler omitted ***** Spoiler Omitted ***
I guess it means that you guys were a really solid and effective team, though, if you could manage to take out enemies before they could pass Leryn, so since I know that Stonelords can be a challenge for 4, you guys did great!
Stonelords experience: ** spoiler omitted **
Also, the Hunter pregren is two sided. There is a lot to read and if you don't know the rules very well, it's difficult to play and easy to miss stuff. She still had a lot of fun!
I sounds to me like the problem might actually be that the pregen is a bit too complex for a new player. A lot of the equipment you gave her would be amazing in the hands of an experienced player, but a new player isn't going to understand how to make the best use of them.
While it sounds like I would have a blast playing this pregen, some of the point of pregens is ease of use for new players. Static pluses as opposed to single use item tricks reduces the complexity a lot.
Though I think you may be misunderstanding some of the teamwork feats. The one that gives +2 more to hit when flanking only activates when you flank with someone else with that feat. And since this hunter is ranged focus, it doesn't sound like it will come up frequently.
Check out Coordinated Shot. It's a pretty cool feat!
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Got it. And the oil of magic weapon and unique arrows weren't enough? The magic bow doesn't have +1 to hit over a MW bow. If it did, it would surely be worth the price!
The menacing amulet is meant to help Leryn and the melee PCs, not Adowyn herself. +2 to hit is quite a boon. Adowyn could be more personally effective if she focused all her gear on herself, but with the +2 (CL 8) wand of greater magic fang and the amulet, Leryn should be an effective force against DR/magic foes. The character was built around working in a team, so agreed that the amulet is definitely really bad in the case thar the team had no one but Leryn who wanted to melee.
From what I understand, the Hunter's schtick is to be a team with their animal companion. So wouldn't it make more sense to either design the Hunter character itself as melee so she can take advantage of the menacing item, or buy a different item for the animal companion that compliments the hunter?
Buying an item that overall helps the pathfinder team, but makes the character itself less effective at what they are supposed to do is an interesting tradeoff. But not one that I feel is a good one. You gotta be good at what you do before you can really think about how to help your other teammates. And if you don't really get to explore what the hunter is good at, then you are not really playing a Hunter, right?
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Got it. And the oil of magic weapon and unique arrows weren't enough? The magic bow doesn't have +1 to hit over a MW bow. If it did, it would surely be worth the price!
The menacing amulet is meant to help Leryn and the melee PCs, not Adowyn herself. +2 to hit is quite a boon. Adowyn could be more personally effective if she focused all her gear on herself, but with the +2 (CL 8) wand of greater magic fang and the amulet, Leryn should be an effective force against DR/magic foes. The character was built around working in a team, so agreed that the amulet is definitely really bad in the case thar the team had no one but Leryn who wanted to melee.
From what I understand, the Hunter's schtick is to be a team with their animal companion. So wouldn't it make more sense to either design the Hunter character itself as melee so she can take advantage of the menacing item, or buy a different item for the animal companion that compliments the hunter?
Buying an item that overall helps the pathfinder team, but makes the character itself less effective at what they are supposed to do is an interesting tradeoff. But not one that I feel is a good one. You gotta be good at what you do before you can really think about how to help your other teammates. And if you don't really get to explore what the hunter is good at, then you are not really playing a Hunter, right?
Oh, I think that from an optimization standpoint of the teamwork feats, melee is undoubtedly the better choice for a hunter (other than archery just generally being strong compared to melee). But Adowyn is an archer, so the first and foremost duty is to represent the character and her choices in a believable way. If it's just some hunter that I wrote who goes melee with Paired Opportunists, Outflank, and Improved Feint Partner with a tiger companion, then it isn't the iconic Adowyn. That being said, then, given that Adowyn was ranged, the menacing amulet is an item to benefit Leryn when he is fulfilling his role and granting Adowyn her bonuses. A pet class, particularly one that is as focused on the pet as a the hunter is, should spend some of their wealth on boosting the pet too. Since Adowyn's teamwork feat Coordinated Shot grants Adowyn a +2 to hit with her bow when Leryn is flanking with another ally and Leryn knows the flank trick, it's actually a quite synergistic item for the two of them, since the item gives Leryn (and the other melee Pathfinders) +2 to hit whenever Leryn is giving Adowyn +2 to hit from her teamwork feat.
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All right, I don't doubt you, but that's weird.
There were the level-one versions from "Master of the Fallen Fortress", but those weren't PFS-legal. If there were other ones, they never showed up at any conventions where I GMed.
Yeah, they came out around GenCon 2010...it was Damiel, Alain, and Alahazra at 1st, 4th and 7th level. They were rather awkward, as they were built on 15 pt. buys and like most pre-gens not very optimized even with that limitation.
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Equipment-wise, this pregen is atrocious! Masterwork composite longbow (no strength bonus),
You just said she had Str 10. You want her to take a -2 to-hit on the off chance someone throws her a Bull's Strength?
a club, and masterwork studded leather armor.Now that is unforgivable. She should have no less than +1 armor at that level. Oh, wait. Archer. She's probably fine.
The pregen has a lot of support items: six different wands, and several kinds of magic arrows (but just one of each).
Thank the Devs! I'm glad a pregen finally has some useful equipment. Don't get me wrong, I love Kyra's fully charged heal stick and Amiri's potion of fly but that's about it...
Oh, and I'd take the +1 TH from a magic bow (along with the +1 damage) to be more effective with my Deadly Aim which adds +4 damage (and -2 TH).
Ahem. She already has a +1 to hit from the bow being masterwork. They don't stack. You're asking them to spend 2000gp on just +1 to damage. That isn't worth it, not at all. The oil is still good enough for situations where DR/magic matters.
As for the menacing amulet of might fists, it's useless. If Adowyn (the Hunter) is adjacent to a foe, she is must be using her club, as a bow does not threaten. She doesn't have the AC to be adjacent to CR 7+ creature swinging just a club.
Then give it to the AC. Does the AC already have a neck slot item?
Is this the new Harsk?
Not hardly.
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My suggestion for improving the equipment for Adowyn:
Downgrade the Cloak of Resistance from +2 to +1 (+ 3,000 GP)
Purchase a Efficient Quiver (- 1,800 GP)
Purchase 30 more Cold Iron Arrows (- 3 GP)
Purchase a longsword and a couple of daggers (- 19 GP) {see her picture}
Add a +1 magical enhancement to her armor (-1,000 GP)
These small changes keep all the flavor of Adowyn, while correcting some weak spots. With eight different types of arrows, she (as with any archer) should not be without an Efficient Quiver.
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying.
...or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
I agree with Bob.
It is everyone's right to play this game the way they have fun playing it. But lets please not confuse playing the role of a caricature and a character.
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
Just relaying my experiences. I don't use animal companions. It's from other players that I have learned that they are fire-and-forget. I think that even a minor penalty would at least have made people think twice. It's not me that "doesn't get it".
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And yet another thread where David's anti Animal Companion rhetoric has been delivered1 Whew, I thought you might actually miss one!
That was actually intended to be useful commentary on the pre-gen. The pre-gen, or any hunter, can hand down goodies from one dead animal companion to the next with no penalty.
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
I agree with Bob.
It is everyone's right to play this game the way they have fun playing it. But lets please not confuse playing the role of a caricature and a character.
It's not a caricature when I've met druid players who have pets named "Meat Shield Number One". Literally.
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
How about you let them play their character how they want to? Without the wongbadfun commentary.
There are plenty of people that use and bause animals for their best interest.
Me personally I enjoy a good steak now and then.
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Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
How about you let them play their character how they want to? Without the wongbadfun commentary.
There are plenty of people that use and bause animals for their best interest.
Me personally I enjoy a good steak now and then.
I may be reading too much into this, but just in case Im not...
Just an FYI, if thats an indication you would kill your companion for a meal cause you feel like having a steak, I would be marking it as an evil action on your chronicle sheet. Do it a second time, and Id mark the character dead for being evil.
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It's not a caricature when I've met druid players who have pets named "Meat Shield Number One". Literally.Yeah, and if the pet dies, the free replacement pet gets all the goodies from the first one. It's a fire-and-forget meatbag. If Paizo intended something else, they would have attached real penalties to animal companions dying....or maybe you could, oh, I don't know, actually take an interest in the theme of the character instead of just treating it like numbers on a page. This is supposed to be a ROLE-playing game. If you think animal companions are intended to be disposable just because the designers didn't attach real penalties to losing one, you just don't "get it."
Sorry for the passive/aggressive, but IMO my response is nothing more than equal to this ridiculous commentary. YMMV
I agree with Bob.
It is everyone's right to play this game the way they have fun playing it. But lets please not confuse playing the role of a caricature and a character.
That's my point. That literally is a caricature.
Some people enjoy playing caricatures instead of characters. That's their right.
I just didn't want people to confuse the two.
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Just relaying my experiences. I don't use animal companions. It's from other players that I have learned that they are fire-and-forget. I think that even a minor penalty would at least have made people think twice. It's not me that "doesn't get it".
Gotcha, and thanks for clarifying
Consider my commentary directed at the community at large