Hello all, just wondering what "instead of the usual effects" means. What are the usual effects of a grapple if you already have a creature grabbed. My other question is this a good feat or just some cool flavor thing like Aerial Piledriver that sounds good but isn't worth spending a class feat on.
Spinebreaker
You squeeze your opponent in a vicious bear hug, putting intense pressure on their nerves, joints, or other pain points. Attempt an Athletics check to Grapple the creature you have grabbed or restrained, with the following effects instead of the usual effects.
Critical Success The target is clumsy 2 until the end of its next turn and clumsy 1 for 1 minute.
Success The target is clumsy 1 until the end of its next turn.
PFS Standard
Inescapable Grasp
The usual effects of Grapple are the same as they are on a target you don't have Grabbed. They still matter, because those usual effects end at the end of your next turn after you grappled if you don't do it again.
Yes. It is very similar to spells that have a duration of 'sustained'. The effect of Grapple only lasts until the end of your next turn unless you spend another action during that turn on Grapple to maintain it.
Looking at the two, I am not entirely sure that the rules text for Spinebreaker even needs to reference Grapple. It looks like it is equivalent to:
You squeeze your opponent in a vicious bear hug, putting intense pressure on their nerves, joints, or other pain points. Attempt an Athletics check
to Grappleagainst the Fortitude DC of the creature you have grabbed or restrained, with the following effectsinstead of the usual effects.Critical Success The target is clumsy 2 until the end of its next turn and clumsy 1 for 1 minute.
Success The target is clumsy 1 until the end of its next turn.
And in your opinion guys is this feat any good? Or am I better off with a different level 10 feat?
And in your opinion guys is this feat any good? Or am I better off with a different level 10 feat?
I think it's a pretty nice debuff. As for whether you'd be better off with something else? I suppose that depends entirely on what you're trying to do with the character.
If you've got a lenient GM, they might even let you do both effects with two actions/checks.
Not sure why that would be considered lenient. It is two single action actions. Neither has the flourish trait. I see zero reason why you couldn't do Grapple followed by Spinebreaker in one round. Or Grapple in one round, then Spinebreaker followed by Grapple (to maintain) in the next round (or the other way around with Grapple first, then Spinebreaker).
Each action would be a separate Athletics check. And they do have the Attack trait, so it would be affected by MAP. But I'm not seeing any available argument to forbid the player from attempting it.
And they do have the Attack trait, so it would be affected by MAP.
Which it seems would be something else that would need to be copied over if you don't want Spinebreaker to reference Grapple. Spinebreaker itself doesn't have the Attack trait, but since it has you use Grapple with a modified outcome result list, it would inherit the Attack trait.
And in your opinion guys is this feat any good? Or am I better off with a different level 10 feat?
There aren't many debuffs that stack with both Frightened and Flat-footed and that drop an enemy's AC. Clumsy is one that would.
So if already playing a grapple-oriented build, having Clumsy available as a single action skill check with no cooldown or daily limits seems pretty good to me.
It would be lenient because grappled is a state. You're either grappled or you are not. GMs may interpret that to mean that you cannot be grappled twice. Since spinebreaker is considered a grapple, it cannot be combined with a traditional grapple.
To be clear, I'm not saying that's the case, just that many GMs may interpret it as such.
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Only egregiously wrong ones. That idea would have no basis at all. Grapple even specifically lists that you can attempt it on creatures you already have grabbed, and Spinebreaker requires that you have grabbed a creature before you can do it. Nothing even vaguely implies needing to be on a separate round.
The idea above that Clumsy (a status penalty) stacks with Frightened (a status penalty) is wrong, though.
The debuff by itself is a bit light but since it's technically a grapple check, it procs crushing grab and brutal bully.
If you have both that's twice your str mod, plus maybe your weapon spec (debated topic).
IMO the wrestler gives you the choice to either release the grapple to deal damage or keep holding and debuff. The latter is worse from an optimized point of view but it's a class fantasy I like. I would recommend using dazing blow as well if it's your intention and maybe submission hold is better than spinebreaker if you're going to do two grapple actions per turn.
Grapple even specifically lists that you can attempt it on creatures you already have grabbed, and Spinebreaker requires that you have grabbed a creature before you can do it. Nothing even vaguely implies needing to be on a separate round.
Good to know. :)
The idea above that Clumsy (a status penalty) stacks with Frightened (a status penalty) is wrong, though.
Did I miss something...
Ah. That Clumsy doesn't affect your dex bonus itself. Just penalizes all of the bonuses that use it.
So yeah, that wouldn't stack with other status penalties such as Frightened.
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By saying you make a check to grapple, you end up getting bonuses that apply only to Grappling, such as Clinging Shadows Stance. Gymnast Swashbucklers would indeed gain Panache if they succeed on it, and Crushing Grab will also activate.
Yes, it could have said what you suggested, but this is from the Wrestler archetype, and making Grapple checks is your bread and butter.