Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Races (PFRPG)

Finally, please don't be upset with posters or (even accidentally) snark at them for making suggestions. Everyone here are taking time out of their day to post because they want this book to be the best book it can be! :)

The same goes for everyone else, frankly.

We DO try to not get upset and try to build the best books we can. Keep in mind as well that this isn't the ONLY thread here, and this board isn't the ONLY place where we interact with customers, and that interactions with customers aren't the ONLY interactions we have. There's a lot going on with this book, and while it's shaping up to be a great book... it's proving a tough one to pull off.

So we absolutely will try to keep from getting too upset... but I humbly ask folks to keep in mind that, while we ARE trying to listen and make the book as great as possible, we're also trying to manage expectations while simultaneously trying to finish the book on time for the printer. Which is in less than a week. So big changes are NOT on the menu at this point... only small adjustments. And frankly, once the work day starts in a few minutes... the time for small adjustments is gone as well as we move into the final stages of printer prep.

So.. again... let's all try to stay calm and understanding. I know folks are excited to see this book, and I'd hate for anyone to ruin that with overreactions.

Understanding and patience is a two way street. Let's work together on this!

Why do Hobgoblins get +2 dex instead of +2 str?

EDIT: I propose a trait which allows you to exchange the +2 dex for +2 str. It's a soldier race; it's only natural.

Actually, while +2 Strength might make sense for a warrior race, I'd argue that Dexterity could be considered more important for a soldier race than Strength, along with Constitution. Dexterity impacts initiative, allowing soldiers to react first and gain tactical maneuvering. Dexterity impacts armor class, allowing them to last longer against less armored foes. Dexterity impacts ranged attacks, which allows hobgoblin armies to pull out the bows and rain arrows on their enemies from tactical positioning more effectively or from behind while hobgoblins in the front hold the line, as well as making use of thrown alchemical weapons (something we know that hobgoblins are canonically fond of). It can also (via Combat Reflexes) increase how many attacks of opportunity they can make, and I can easily imagine hobgoblins with longspears or other polearms making good use of that. Comparatively, certainly, Strength is relevant for dealing damage, hitting in melee, carrying their gear (though pack wagons and slaves can help there) but I think Constitution (for lasting in combat, marching, and of course, surviving combat in the first place) and Dexterity are far more relevant to many soldiers.

Unrelatedly, I think changelings are fine witches. Sure, the Constitution penalty hurts, but it's not like they've got an Intelligence penalty or anything. And it may be a bit weird that witchwolves are pretty bad at being witches, but they're still definitely playable, I've played a few myself...had a witchwolf playtest cryokinetist (Ivan! The Winter Wolf!) and been playing a witchwolf playtest medium in a Celtic-themed adventure with an alternate origin, which is also fun.

I am glad that most of rules in the book will be new other then the heritages I can't of anything else I would want to see reprinted rule wise.

I can't wait for this book. New material, info, rules. All of it sounds great.

Similarly while I understand that altering changelings is problematic, you can still get some use out of my suggestions on Changelings - namely that it'd be nice if Changelings worked better with the witch class. Assuming you agree with that premise and want to make changeling witches a more dynamic option, how you'd go about doing that is entirely up to the designer. Creating alternate race variants akin to angelkin for the different hags or expanding on the Hag racial trait has already been mentioned. I also think Kalindlara has a great idea in using changeling-specific archetypes to make their attribute spread more compatible with the witch class.

Okay, here is an idea for why the changeling stat mods work as they are. A changeling decides she wants to be a witch. She doesn't have a penalty to Intelligence but she doesn't have a bonus. So, her mom starts whispering her name, and she goes to investigate... and finds her mom is a witch... nay, not just a witch but a hag. An uber-witch.

Mom: Hon, you already know you want to be a witch, but join me and you can be the witch you were always meant to be...

Changeling: Really? Okay, I'm in!

Mom: Excellent! Here's how the ritual works...

or

Changeling: Ewww, no you are a disgusting evil hag, and I refuse to have anything to do with you!

Mom: Then you shall never reach your true potential.

Kudaku wrote:

Similarly while I understand that altering changelings is problematic, you can still get some use out of my suggestions on Changelings - namely that it'd be nice if Changelings worked better with the witch class. Assuming you agree with that premise and want to make changeling witches a more dynamic option, how you'd go about doing that is entirely up to the designer. Creating alternate race variants akin to angelkin for the different hags or expanding on the Hag racial trait has already been mentioned. I also think Kalindlara has a great idea in using changeling-specific archetypes to make their attribute spread more compatible with the witch class.

Okay, here is an idea for why the changeling stat mods work as they are. A changeling decides she wants to be a witch. She doesn't have a penalty to Intelligence but she doesn't have a bonus. So, her mom starts whispering her name, and she goes to investigate... and finds her mom is a witch... nay, not just a witch but a hag. An uber-witch.

Mom: Hon, you already know you want to be a witch, but join me and you can be the witch you were always meant to be...

Changeling: Really? Okay, I'm in!

Mom: Excellent! Here's how the ritual works...

or

Changeling: Ewww, no you are a disgusting evil hag, and I refuse to have anything to do with you!

Mom: Then you shall never reach your true potential.

I don't hate this. ^_^

Ruby Rose Royce wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

Similarly while I understand that altering changelings is problematic, you can still get some use out of my suggestions on Changelings - namely that it'd be nice if Changelings worked better with the witch class. Assuming you agree with that premise and want to make changeling witches a more dynamic option, how you'd go about doing that is entirely up to the designer. Creating alternate race variants akin to angelkin for the different hags or expanding on the Hag racial trait has already been mentioned. I also think Kalindlara has a great idea in using changeling-specific archetypes to make their attribute spread more compatible with the witch class.

Okay, here is an idea for why the changeling stat mods work as they are. A changeling decides she wants to be a witch. She doesn't have a penalty to Intelligence but she doesn't have a bonus. So, her mom starts whispering her name, and she goes to investigate... and finds her mom is a witch... nay, not just a witch but a hag. An uber-witch.

Mom: Hon, you already know you want to be a witch, but join me and you can be the witch you were always meant to be...

Changeling: Really? Okay, I'm in!

Mom: Excellent! Here's how the ritual works...

or

Changeling: Ewww, no you are a disgusting evil hag, and I refuse to have anything to do with you!

Mom: Then you shall never reach your true potential.

I don't hate this. ^_^

Thanks! That's kinda what I am going with in a campaign I am running in fact (single player game, so I have a few NPCs that help out with adventures... Sometimes they'll have other stuff to do and others will help.) This is the hag (green) in question and her daughter is a changeling witch who pretty much has that attitude.

Matrix Dragon wrote:

I really hope that the skinwalkers make it into this book and get their ability scores fixed. Between witchwolves having an int penalty and many skinwalkers gaining mental bonuses instad of physical bonuses which they shapechange they had a serious case of flavor not matching the mechanics.

Heck, if they fixed skinwalkers in this book that would make it a must buy for me.

There'll be a little bit of finessing for some of the skinwalker stat mods, but we're trying hard NOT to go crazy with unnecessary errata.

In the case of the witchwolf, their intelligence penalties are likely to remain. Note that while they have the word "witch" in their name, this isn't meant to imply that lots of them take levels as witches. And they need ONE penalty at least, and frankly... as far as wolves are concerned... Intelligence is the stat that seems to me to be the most logical choice to penalize.

We're very close to pencils down on this, so if someone wants to make an impassioned plea or argument... now is the time!!!

EDIT: At this point, we ARE shifting the werecrocodile-kin mods from +2 Int/–2 Wis to +2 Con/–2 Wis AND the wereboar-kin from +2 Wis/–2 Cha to +2 Str/–2 Cha... but the other ones seem to be pretty spot on as far as we can tell...

Thanks for the info James! I am glad that those updates are making their way in :) (I hope I didn't come off as confrontational)

Just curious, what are your thoughts on the way that many of the skinwalkers only gain their mental bonuses when shapeshifted? For example, Werebearkin have +2 Con/-2 Cha, and gain +2 Wis when they shapeshift. Wouldn't it make more sense thematically for them to gain their physical bonus when shapeshifted? The way it is right now it implies that they are physically bear-like all the time, and have to shapeshift to become bear-like mentally... which feels off.

These temporary mental bonuses also cause issues for spellcasters and other classes with special abilities, since they have to be in their beast form all the time in order to keep their bonus spells per-day and such.

I'd just connect it to a stronger connection to the spirit/magical/other side where their powers are drawn from while in were form.

+2 Wisdom: Heightened animal senses, more primal reactions to the world around them (fight or flight instinct kicks in; shapechanged/larger pituitary gland?)

True True, but I do have to point out that this would make skinchangers the only 'race' in the game that changes its mental stats via transformation. Normal lycanthropes don't do it (except when they first get their template), other shapechangers don't do it, and polymorph spells do it extremely rarely (aka double failed baleful polymorph save). I can see the explanation for it, it just seems to not mesh with the way the rest of the game works.

I also find it strange to get a mental stat boost when transformed.

This book isn't the place to completely redesign the skinwalker race. They don't have a significant presence in the book at all—there's about 2 paragraphs about ALL of the various heritages in the book (and all of the heritages themselves get their racial traits reprinted, along with all other races, at the end of the book), so they're really not a big part of the book at all. Blood of the Moon remains the primary source for skinwalkers at this time, and will continue to do so into the forseable future.

As for why they gain their mental stats when they transform... that was a decision made by the book's authors and its developer, Patrick Rennie. He no longer works at Paizo so he's not handy for me to chat with as to why he and the authors made that call... but that's the call that was made.

Maybe, in some unforseen future, we might revisit them. At this point, I don't see that future in the near horizon. If you feel that their stat mods would work better differently... feel free to houserule away, but as it is now... with the exception of one or two MINOR changes we're making to them in this book... this book is neither the time nor the place to spend that much reworking and re-design on what is, ultimately, an INCREDIBLY minor part of the Inner Sea region.

Skinwalkers ARE likley a big part of Arcadia. If and when we do more with that continent, THAT might be the right time to look into a big revision of them. But maybe not even then. Time will tell.

Again: Skinwalkers are a very minor part of Inner Sea Races, and I just want folks to keep that in mind, considering how much focus they've received in the conversation in this thread. Skinwalkers are outliers to the Inner Sea region, after all.

Patrick's gone? Who's managing the Player Companion line now?

Owen.

Will there be any product previews for this item before Gen Con?

if Owen is running the companion line, is he still running the module line as well???

Again: Skinwalkers are a very minor part of Inner Sea Races, and I just want folks to keep that in mind, considering how much focus they've received in the conversation in this thread. Skinwalkers are outliers to the Inner Sea region, after all.

Sorry! It just so happens that all of my favorate races in pathfinder aren't inner sea races, so whenever they do actually come up I can't help but focus on them ;)

What are your favorite races Matrix Dragon?

What are your favorite races Matrix Dragon?

Well, I don't want to derail any more than I already have, but: Skinwalker, Kitsune, Kobold, Undine, Tengu, and Ratfolk.

I guess Kobolds are Inner Sea, but they are usually evil and have a weird/bad stat spread. They are kind of difficult to play in a standard campaign. Hmmm, I wonder how big of a section Kobolds will get in this book.

More then likely the same amount of space as any of the other non-core races.

if Owen is running the companion line, is he still running the module line as well???

Nope - one line's enough for one person. :-) With 3 new developers, we're able to shift a lot more stuff around, and one of the benefits of that has been giving projects like individual modules to devs who are a good match for them. So, for example, we've been able to offload some stuff from Adam so that he can develop House on Hook Street.

It's off to the printer.

*flops on couch to begin two weeks of sleep*

I can't wait to get my hands on this one...or at least read the PDF.

Maybe we need to make a list of what races will not be in this book, that would be easier to keep track of;)

So, when will the product description get updated?

Closer to launch, I assume.

So to satisfy my curiosity and since this will probably be a guranteed Christmas purchase how much does it cover these races?

Catfolk
Gnolls
Kobolds
Wyvarans
Changelings
Kitsune
Ratfolk
Vanara
Half Orcs
Tieflings

Cause those are my favorites to play

So to satisfy my curiosity and since this will probably be a guranteed Christmas purchase how much does it cover these races?

Catfolk
Gnolls
Kobolds
Wyvarans
Changelings
Kitsune
Ratfolk
Vanara
Half Orcs
Tieflings

Cause those are my favorites to play

All of those are mentioned in the book. In some cases (such as tieflings and half-orcs and kobolds) for several pages. In others (such as wyvarans and kitsune and vanara) for a paragraph or two. Gnolls barely get mentioned at all—they have hit dice, and are thus beyond the scope of this book. There's 2 pages in the book that summarize a lot of the races with HD, from gnolls on up to giants and beyond, but the focus of this book is races without racial HD.

Hmmm ever thought about expanding the 0HD Gnoll in ARG? It was simple but it was one of my favorite Pathfinder creations of all time.

I'm glad wyvarans are getting more love too.

Huh, even wyvarans get a paragraph? Thats interesting to me, I love to get info on obscure races xD

Hmmm ever thought about expanding the 0HD Gnoll in ARG? It was simple but it was one of my favorite Pathfinder creations of all time.

I'm glad wyvarans are getting more love too.

I would love an expanded 0 HD Gnoll. I've been playing one through Mummy's Mask.

I'm not all that interested in pursuing a zero HD gnoll. Not everything needs to be a player option. The GMs need monsters too.

No matter how many "monsters" you guys add favored enemy human still is more useful. You might as well let us play nothing but monster races;)

Nothing has more monstrous potential then a human ;)

Or high elves thanks to TES.

But still, I love gnolls, have played a paladin in a campaign set in Mendev, gunslinger in Kingmaker, a barbarian in CotCC, and currently a Chirurgeon Alchemist in RotR

A playable 0HD Gnoll race is one of the races highlighted in the upcoming Kobold Publishing race hardcover. Probably worth a look at that book when its published if you want more gnolls as PC options.

I think we need more 0HD races, a little more then 50 isn't enough, we will talk when the number reaches 100.

I'm not all that interested in pursuing a zero HD gnoll. Not everything needs to be a player option. The GMs need monsters too.

Totally agree. There are already a LOT of playable races to choose from. Everything does not need to be a player option. Thank you for drawing the line somewhere.

I am glad that the Wyvarans will at least get a mention.

I am glad that the Wyvarans will at least get a mention.

A rather fun mention that should give you some good adventure ideas and character concepts!

I think we need more 0HD races, a little more then 50 isn't enough, we will talk when the number reaches 100.

Alternately, I think some of the 40 non-core races could receive a better coat of paint. I want more 0HD races too, but mostly because the existing ones are so lackluster. Instead of increasing the number, a lot of the existing ones could be made appealing, IMO. I mean, for example, I love the fluff of changelings, but their crunch doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to play a race *just* for the fluff.

I don't know what your talking about Samy, all my favorite races in Pathfinder are non-core.

All the races to date in Pathfinder that have stats are...
1)Aasimar
2)Android
3)Catfolk
4)Changeling
5)Dhampir
6)Dwarf
7)Dwarf, Duergar
8)Elf
9)Elf, Aquatic
10)Elf, Drow
11)Elf, Half-
12)Eoxian(human stats except +4Int -4Con)
13)Fetchling
14)Gathlain
15)Ghoran
16)Gillmen
17)Gnome
18)Gnome, Svirfneblin
19)Goblin
20)Goblin, Hobgoblin
21)Goblin, Monkey
22)Grippli
23)Halfling
24)Human
25)Ifrit
26)Kasatha
27)Kitsune
28)Kobold
29)Kuru
30)Lashunta
31)Merfolk
32)Nagaji
33)Orc
34)Orc, Half-
35)Oread
36)Ratfolk
37)Samsaran
38)Shabti
39)Skinwalker
40)Strix
41)Suli
42)Sylph
43)Syrinx
44)Tengu
45)Tiefling
46)Triaxian
47)Trox
48)Undine
49)Vanara
50)Vishkanya
51)Wayang
52)Wyrwood
53)Wyvaran

This doesn't included third party products or what will be in any future products such as Bestiary 5;).

I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.

I don't know what your talking about Samy, all my favorite races in Pathfinder are non-core.

Mine too. Only core race I ever play is human.

I'm partial to half-elves, myself. But, that's about it.

Changelings4life.

Do Humans get one section, or do each of the human ethnicities get a section?

Humans get an intro section that matches the section for other races, and then each ethnicity gets a 4-page section.

Really looking forward to this! Any chance of this heralding some changes in PFS allowed races? ;)

Not that I'm aware of, but that would be a question for the PFS team.

Wow, 4 pages per human ethnicity, well that is lot.

Has the book gone to the printers yet?