Kalindlara Contributor |
Jessica Price Project Manager |
Hayato Ken |
4 pages on each human ethnicity??
That surely cements the humanocentric outlook of Golarion.
Had the impression lately things might have changed a bit there.
But with this book, i might just encourage players in something i had in my mind some time already.
If you take certain feats that have a special player and are associated with regions, you should be from that region and most probably have that ethnicity.
CorvusMask |
I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.
This makes me wonder, is there really a reason why people would be bothered by options that they aren't interested in that other people are interested about? .-.
Like, whats wrong with existence of options? You don't like them, someone else will like them.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
Fourshadow |
Hayato Ken wrote:Nope, Golarion is still humanocentric.4 pages on each human ethnicity??
That surely cements the humanocentric outlook of Golarion.
Had the impression lately things might have changed a bit there.
Humans rule! Elves drool! Dwarves are tools! Goblinoids are vermin!
Gorbacz |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gorbacz wrote:I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.This makes me wonder, is there really a reason why people would be bothered by options that they aren't interested in that other people are interested about? .-.
Like, whats wrong with existence of options? You don't like them, someone else will like them.
I'd prefer people coming to me with an idea of an interesting elf or dwarf or tiefling, not with an idea for a quarter-skinwalker/quarter-aasimar/half-halfing.
I mean, I love 3.5/PF for its option crazy approach, but there are limits to everything, and while I don't mind the proliferation of classes/archetypes, the crazy race sprawl is slowly becoming irritating.
DekoTheBarbarian |
Very first D&D character I ever made was a Half-Orc Barbarian, and I've made him in each incarnation of D&D I've ever played (3.5, 4, and Pathfinder), plus various video games. I've always loved half-orcs and am looking forward to seeing more love for them.
Other than that, I love the half-elves in Pathfinder, though I wish there was some more options to replace multitalented with, maybe one that gives you a bonus for only focusing on one class (something like the Fast Learner human racial feat that I almost always choose with my human characters).
While I do love the Featured and Uncommon Races in the ARG and other Companion books, like the Dragon Empires books, the only reason I don't play more of them is because they do have a lack of options to customize them with. (Other than Aasimars and Tieflings, which have already been spoken about several times in this thread and don't really need me to bring up.)
That said, I am really looking forward to reading more about how the different races I love, and even those I merely like or find a little interesting, fit into the wider world of Golarion. I was a little disapointed in ARG because is was gender-neutral. I'm always a huge fan of background and world building in whatever I play/read so more fluff is always a bonus for me.
And yes, I am looking forward to finding out the racial name for cat folk. After all, khajiit like to sneak ;3
Kalindlara Contributor |
DekoTheBarbarian |
Heroes of the Wild gave us a new option to replace Multitalented with: Fey Thoughts. It makes two skills from a (very expansive) list into class skills.
Unfortunately, for unknown reasons, it is not PFS legal. :(
I have the book, but haven't looked at it a whole lot. Mostly been looking at Unchained and Animal Archive/Familiar Folio lately. I'll give it a look but it sounds a lot more useful.
Steve Geddes |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gorbacz wrote:I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.This makes me wonder, is there really a reason why people would be bothered by options that they aren't interested in that other people are interested about? .
If the book were the same size with fewer options, each of those options would be more detailed, have more associated flavor material, etcetera. That's one reason.
CorvusMask |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
CorvusMask wrote:Gorbacz wrote:I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.This makes me wonder, is there really a reason why people would be bothered by options that they aren't interested in that other people are interested about? .-.
Like, whats wrong with existence of options? You don't like them, someone else will like them.
I'd prefer people coming to me with an idea of an interesting elf or dwarf or tiefling, not with an idea for a quarter-skinwalker/quarter-aasimar/half-halfing.
I mean, I love 3.5/PF for its option crazy approach, but there are limits to everything, and while I don't mind the proliferation of classes/archetypes, the crazy race sprawl is slowly becoming irritating.
But I don't think its even possible to have character who is aasimar, thiefling, elf, orc, human and skinwalker at same time :p Nothing says you can mix them, so that argument sounds like you are making up a problem that doesn't exist
(plus dwarves and elves are kinda boring anyway)
Samy |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If the book were the same size with fewer options, each of those options would be more detailed, have more associated flavor material, etcetera. That's one reason.
I have no problem with that if the options cut are the core races. But what are the odds of that? It seems like whenever people talk about "cutting lists in half", they always want to keep the boring races and cut away the interesting ones.
Steve Geddes |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Steve Geddes wrote:If the book were the same size with fewer options, each of those options would be more detailed, have more associated flavor material, etcetera. That's one reason.I have no problem with that if the options cut are the core races. But what are the odds of that? It seems like whenever people talk about "cutting lists in half", they always want to keep the boring races and cut away the interesting ones.
Sure, some people will want things you don't. That doesn't make it without reason though. What you find interesting, others will find boring and vice versa.
I'd have been happy if this book focussed purely on dwarves, elves, humans, halflings, half orcs and half elves, personally. I'd love to have those races fleshed out much more than they are, rather than have lots of brief sketches.
Tastes vary enormously. Paizo have to walk the fine line between thousands of different preferences and work out the best compromise. Customers expressing their desires isn't having a go at customers with different tastes.
Gorbacz |
Gorbacz wrote:CorvusMask wrote:Gorbacz wrote:I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.This makes me wonder, is there really a reason why people would be bothered by options that they aren't interested in that other people are interested about? .-.
Like, whats wrong with existence of options? You don't like them, someone else will like them.
I'd prefer people coming to me with an idea of an interesting elf or dwarf or tiefling, not with an idea for a quarter-skinwalker/quarter-aasimar/half-halfing.
I mean, I love 3.5/PF for its option crazy approach, but there are limits to everything, and while I don't mind the proliferation of classes/archetypes, the crazy race sprawl is slowly becoming irritating.
But I don't think its even possible to have character who is aasimar, thiefling, elf, orc, human and skinwalker at same time :p Nothing says you can mix them, so that argument sounds like you are making up a problem that doesn't exist
(plus dwarves and elves are kinda boring anyway)
Bastards of Golarion has rules for mixed ancestry. The combo is possible and is played in one group I am in. :)
CorvusMask |
CorvusMask wrote:Bastards of Golarion has rules for mixed ancestry. The combo is possible and is played in one group I am in. :)Gorbacz wrote:CorvusMask wrote:Gorbacz wrote:I would prefer the above list to be cut in half, but YMMV.This makes me wonder, is there really a reason why people would be bothered by options that they aren't interested in that other people are interested about? .-.
Like, whats wrong with existence of options? You don't like them, someone else will like them.
I'd prefer people coming to me with an idea of an interesting elf or dwarf or tiefling, not with an idea for a quarter-skinwalker/quarter-aasimar/half-halfing.
I mean, I love 3.5/PF for its option crazy approach, but there are limits to everything, and while I don't mind the proliferation of classes/archetypes, the crazy race sprawl is slowly becoming irritating.
But I don't think its even possible to have character who is aasimar, thiefling, elf, orc, human and skinwalker at same time :p Nothing says you can mix them, so that argument sounds like you are making up a problem that doesn't exist
(plus dwarves and elves are kinda boring anyway)
Huh ._. More you know xD
Jessica Price Project Manager |
20 people marked this as a favorite. |
<wry> Saying humans aren't that interesting is sort of like saying our world and its history, its cultures, and the many ways humans have dealt with different environments, events, and other challenges isn't interesting--and it kind of ignores what I think is one of the primary attractions of speculative fiction: to take the familiar and change a few factors and ask ourselves how things we take for granted might only look like inevitabilities because of one or two factors.
For me, at least, the questions of what people who are basically like us would do in a world with magic, how a culture that openly has ties to Hell maintains itself and relates to the rest of the world, what a quasi-matriarchal desert empire would look like, what it would be like to live in a city that was filled with free universities (in which pretty much everyone continues to attend classes on and off for their entire lives), and so on are more interesting than another page on tengu.
You can disagree, of course, but for better or for worse, Golarion is humanocentric because most of the creative staff finds those types of questions interesting (which is what happens when you hire a bunch of history buffs), and a lot of those sort of details never get thought through in a fantasy world if your focus is on what isn't human, rather than on how humans react to what isn't human.
CorvusMask |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eh, people are interesting, history is interesting, culture is interesting, but human as species is normal and not that special or interesting :P I'm human, I know what being human is like, I see humans everyday. Humans in fantasy, humans in scifi, humans back few hundred years ago, humanity never really changes. For obvious reasons xD One of better examples of interesting and weird humanity I can think of is Eclipse Phase, and thats because transhumanism challenges what it means to be human. Heck, there are tons of good fiction that explores what it means to be human, whats wrong with wanting fiction that explores whats its like NOT being a human?
Thats kinda what I thought when Gorbacz said he'd prefer well played dwarf or elf to some wacky weird ancestry character, interesting character is interesting even if the race of the character isn't that interesting. Before you argue "But if character isn't interesting and only thing going for them is just unusual obscure race, thats not good character!", I agree, but there is nothing preventing having a good character with rarer race. As player, I like option of being able to pick weird as hell stuff.
Note that in my opinion, interesting races are the ones that are weird(well, more weird than "Humans, but they have gills" <_< Weirdness is subjective I guess) either by physical stuff or psychological stuff, have abilities that allow unique solutions or gameplay stuff(like, kitsune have two different appearances they can freely use, tengu can have proficiency with all sword-like weapons regardless of class) or playstyles or just look cool. So to me, that type of "I have blood line from all possible sources!" character is just as boring as regular human.
Also, I don't really mind Golarion being humanocentric as long I can play as non human character and see humans reacting to non human character. It would suck to play as kobold and everyone not wanting to immediately kill me :p
(Granted, I do love some xenofiction as well, but that is so niche as hell genre that only way for me to find some is probably become a writer myself, but that won't happen probably since I suck in writing)
p-sto |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do love the attention to detail that's been give to the various human cultures and governments throughout Golarion. They are quite rich, diverse and interesting. However, it does make some of the non-core races who have received less attention seem like silly caricatures in comparison. There are times where I wonder why certain races are even included in the campaign setting when there seems to be little effort put into developing them.
CorvusMask |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do love the attention to detail that's been give to the various human cultures and governments throughout Golarion. They are quite rich, diverse and interesting. However, it does make some of the non-core races who have received less attention seem like silly caricatures in comparison. There are times where I wonder why certain races are even included in the campaign setting when there seems to be little effort put into developing them.
Ye, its not hard to wonder why they exist sometimes. Especially when developers keep reminding customers that Golarion is humanocentric world as if they think we are devaluing their writing or something by saying we happen to find human like races uninteresting in comparison :P
...Huh, I guess thats it though? xD Writers are offended that some of us are more interested in races that have less effort put them than interesting history of core races?
Eh, I guess it is bit confusing that I happen to consider cultures and races separate stuff.
David knott 242 |
Of course, there are many races that fit uneasily into human cultures rather than having distinct cultures of their own. I have noticed that an interesting thing that my last three player characters have said is "I am human" -- and that statement has invariably proven false in some way.
I guess I should be able to surprise my fellow players by having my next player character actually be human.
knightnday |
p-sto wrote:I do love the attention to detail that's been give to the various human cultures and governments throughout Golarion. They are quite rich, diverse and interesting. However, it does make some of the non-core races who have received less attention seem like silly caricatures in comparison. There are times where I wonder why certain races are even included in the campaign setting when there seems to be little effort put into developing them.Ye, its not hard to wonder why they exist sometimes. Especially when developers keep reminding customers that Golarion is humanocentric world as if they think we are devaluing their writing or something by saying we happen to find human like races uninteresting in comparison :P
...Huh, I guess thats it though? xD Writers are offended that some of us are more interested in races that have less effort put them than interesting history of core races?
Eh, I guess it is bit confusing that I happen to consider cultures and races separate stuff.
I do not think they are offended; rather, they are trying to manage expectations. People on many of these threads get excited because their favorite race may be included and they are letting you know that there isn't going to be 90 pages of kitsune material followed by half a book on skinwalkers.
Even in this thread we can see a divide between those that think that humans or core races are "boring" (whatever that means) and those who think many of the exotic races are interesting or out there (whatever those terms mean.)
In short, telling you that the book is going to be full of information on the human cultures provides people a quick way to see if the book is for them so there is less grar about "If I had known that they weren't going to include more than a passing remark about my favorite race the Blah, I'd have never bought this book! Negative Five stars!"
CorvusMask |
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Eh, perhaps, but I take offense at "Saying humans aren't that interesting is sort of like saying our world and its history, its cultures, and the many ways humans have dealt with different environments, events, and other challenges isn't interesting" :P Its false analogy, saying that humans aren't interesting doesn't mean that human history, human cultures and etc aren't interesting.
Seriously <_< Why would "human race option in role playing game" being boring in my opinion mean all of those things in real life? I just don't find humans mechanically interesting(or any of core races for that matter) and thematically they aren't that interesting to me since because we are all humans, they are the default and so are the norm you compare weirder stuff to. Sure each of human cultures in game is interesting, but race itself? Not really.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
p-sto wrote:I do love the attention to detail that's been give to the various human cultures and governments throughout Golarion. They are quite rich, diverse and interesting. However, it does make some of the non-core races who have received less attention seem like silly caricatures in comparison. There are times where I wonder why certain races are even included in the campaign setting when there seems to be little effort put into developing them.Ye, its not hard to wonder why they exist sometimes. Especially when developers keep reminding customers that Golarion is humanocentric world as if they think we are devaluing their writing or something by saying we happen to find human like races uninteresting in comparison :P
...Huh, I guess thats it though? xD Writers are offended that some of us are more interested in races that have less effort put them than interesting history of core races?
Eh, I guess it is bit confusing that I happen to consider cultures and races separate stuff.
Your clumsy and baiting attempts at armchair psychology aren't needed here.
CorvusMask |
I'm sorry, but I honestly wasn't trying to bait. I say stupid crap when I get offended to vent out my own frustration -_-; I'm sorry about what I wrote and I guess I will now just leave and calm down, before I say more stupid stuff and am told to get out..
Myth Lord |
Humans in a fantasy world are overrated, they would stand little chance without guns in a fantasy setting, and without magic they all would be sword-peasants that could NEVER win against the intellect of a Sphinx or the strength of a Minotaur, maybe they could hurt a pixie or goblin, but that's about it. (watch a horror-movie, the humans mostly win because the creature is stupid or makes a mistake (mostly the movie-writer makes the mistake), an intelligent creature would never make that mistake)
That's why humans in games are also fantasy creatures, and not how a real human would act and be, even the strongest human would have little chance against a fully armed Minotaur and if Sphinxes and Demons really are that intelligent, no way a human makes a chance without an army, as they are also more powerful in strength than them.
I see humans as peasants in games, they act more as food for monsters, and the powerful heroes ALWAYS need help in defeating powerful monsters from magical races such as elves, dwarves and other fantasy races.
Dragon78 |
I do find humans, as a race, to be boring, mechanically above average in usefulness, and culturally sometimes interested. But you know what I really like about humans, what they create both real and unreal. So what I like are things that I find cool from the human mind such as architecture, literature, science, and especially made up creatures from the past, present, and future.
Manwolf |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wait, responding to armchair psychology stating that preferring to play a non-human in a fantasy game full of dragons and magic means that you don't like humans or their history or culture in the real world counts as armchair psychology?
Wow. Does that count as irony?
No, I read it as people take pride in their work product, as I'm sure Ms. Price does, and to see someone write something negative, something based solely on personal preference, could seem as devaluing work they have put so much into, it's a bit difficult to swallow.
KingmanHighborn |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think Corvus and Myth Lord pretty much echoe most of my thoughts.
Especially this:
I just don't find humans mechanically interesting(or any of core races for that matter) and thematically they aren't that interesting to me since because we are all humans, they are the default and so are the norm you compare weirder stuff to. Sure each of human cultures in game is interesting, but race itself? Not really.
Though I do like Half Orcs
As I said, it's much more interesting to apply the culture across all the races, then lock everything into humans.
No, I read it as people take pride in their work product, as I'm sure Ms. Price does, and to see someone write something negative, something based solely on personal preference, could seem as devaluing work they have put so much into, it's a bit difficult to swallow.
I believe everyone works their backsides off at Paizo, but a statement of personal preference and opinion shouldn't be attacked either. It's not devalueing the work.
But the fact remains humans are WAY over represented, mechanical over powered (or overly flexible really, there isn't an overpowered race under 20rp), and over covered right now. It's nice to have quality products like the ARG, and the Monster Codex, where humans are the blurbs, and the deeper and richer races get some spotlight other then 'rawr monster' which is a category that even the other 'CORE' races get dropped into.
And as I said in response to James Jacobs remarks on the GM needing monsters, nothing has more monstrous potential then a human.
I just don't want to play as one, and really if the option ever came up (never happen but I wish) I'd walk away from humanity to be a catfolk in real life.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wait, responding to armchair psychology stating that preferring to play a non-human in a fantasy game full of dragons and magic means that you don't like humans or their history or culture in the real world counts as armchair psychology?
Wow. Does that count as irony?
No.
People were asking if Golarion's humanocentricness had changed, and saying humans are boring.
I explained that no, it hadn't, and disagreed with them that it's boring.
Disagreement is not an attack. My saying I disagree that humans are boring, and explaining why, is not an attack, and neither is people disagreeing with me and saying they still find them boring.
What I do object to is the "you're just offended because we've figured out that you didn't put much effort into the other races" crap. I wasn't offended by the idea that some people prefer non-human races and find humans boring. I disagreed. And my disagreement was based on reasons I gave, not pique or writer sensitivity, and it's dismissive and gaslighting to attempt to write it off as "well, you're just pissed because we found out you don't put that much effort into elves."
We do, for the record, put a ton of effort into non-human races, as should be evidenced by the gazillion pages we've written about them even though they're not the dominant species on Golarion. We put effort into everything we publish.
Which I think you knew quite well.
Now move on.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
I'm sorry, but I honestly wasn't trying to bait. I say stupid crap when I get offended to vent out my own frustration -_-; I'm sorry about what I wrote and I guess I will now just leave and calm down, before I say more stupid stuff and am told to get out..
Apology accepted. As I said above, I don't have an issue with your disagreement itself.
Gorbacz |
I just don't want to play as one, and really if the option ever came up (never happen but I wish) I'd walk away from humanity to be a catfolk in real life.
Yeah, but I doubt that having a tail and whiskers would suddenly make you a better person. ;)
Hayato Ken |
People were asking if Golarion's humanocentricness had changed,
and saying humans are boring.
While i indirectly did the first thing, i never said the second, just to make that clear.
We do, for the record, put a ton of effort into non-human races, as should be evidenced by the gazillion pages we've written about them even though they're not the dominant species on Golarion. We put effort into everything we publish.
That´s what lead me to my - obviously wrong - impression of the softened up humanocetrism.
Besides, i´m positively surprised and looking forward to the many pages on human ethnicities in this book. I even think humans of different origins could eventually get some more customization.
Not necessarily what had been done with Aasimar and Tiefling, since that was/is a bit too good.
Set |
As for humans, more on Shoanti, in particular, sounds cool, since, of the human ethnicities, they seem the least tied to a real-world ethnicity (well, them and the Kellids, who are kind of faux Cimmerians).
Varisians are an odd bunch as well. It sometimes feels like one writer wants to make them more stereotypically 'gypsy/romani' and the next writer wants to drag them away from that, which gives the race a funky sort of schizophrenic feel (more like a real world ethnicity, which defies easy pigeonholing, than a somewhat 'shorthanded for your convenience' fantasy culture).
Hayato Ken |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I´m definately welcomning a fluff approach on the human ethnicities.
Costumization doesn´t necessarily mean different stats etc for me.
If those 4 pages each help me as a player and other players give characters from various regions more color and amke it easier to roleplay them, it will be a great book for sure!
KingmanHighborn |
KingmanHighborn wrote:Yeah, but I doubt that having a tail and whiskers would suddenly make you a better person. ;)I just don't want to play as one, and really if the option ever came up (never happen but I wish) I'd walk away from humanity to be a catfolk in real life.
Not about being a better person. ;) But that's getting off topic.