The progress with the old system was DC x Die result in cp per day. So DC 25 times Take 10 result of 25 is 625 cp per day or 6.25 gp per day. If you could take 20 for result of 35, then 35 x 25 or 875 cp or 8.75 gp per day.
In the new system, swords are Normal complexity (DC 15) with a flat rate of 2 gp per day. With the Take 10 result of 25, you beat the DC by 10, so triple the progress to 6 gp per day. If you could take 20, for 35, beating the DC by 20, so 5 times the progress at 10 gp per day.
But, that's with regular steel. Adamantine weapons increase the complexity by 2 steps to Intricate, so DC 25 and flat 8 gp per day. Taking 10 would meet the DC 25 on the spot for 8 gp per day, but take 20 would triple it to 24 gp per day.
So, the new process is a bit faster for simple expensive items like Adamantine swords, but is a lot faster for complex items regardless of cost, like clocks and guns.
(then add special raw materials but that's another layer of math)
You can't Take 20 on Craft checks.
Not normally, no. But if PCs look hard enough, they will find a way.
While I agreed with Myrryr that no blacksmith took a month to make a sword, assuming he was starting with a block of metal in roughly the same shape and size as the sword, neither version of the craft rules assume that is where you are starting. The process starts with either 1/3 of the final value (old version) or 1/4 (new version).
Looking at a real world wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing - and, yes real world doesn't always line up with RPG, but starting with iron ore and charcoal, it takes weeks with the use of assistants.
Assuming a masterwork katana (final price 350 gp) which would normally be Complex (DC 20), but masterwork makes it Intricate (DC 25), that would be 8 gp per day assuming you just made the check exactly at the DC, so 43.75 days (measured at 8 hours per day). If you have enough assistants and other modifiers to get a result of 30, then it would be 16 gp / day or 21.875 days (or 525 hours).
While an adamantine katana would be 3,050, it would also be far more difficult to forge (i.e. Very Intricate, DC 30), but the progression per day would be the same if you get the same result of 30 (i.e. 16 gp / day so about 190 days assuming you don't manage to get a result of 35 or more).
As I mentioned before, when you factor in the special materials, that is where the crafting math shifts. An adamantine katana must start with 762 gp worth of raw materials (1/4 of 3,050 gp). But lets say you you decide on getting some "Easily Worked Adamantine" from the special materials.
1 lb of easily worked adamantine costs 600 gp out of pocket, but counts as 300 gp for the purposes of meeting the 762 gp initial material cost. NOTE: no where does it say that you have to meet the weight of the item you are making, only the initial material cost.
So you spend 1,524 gp to start with easily worked adamantine (i.e. one half the construction cost) and your progress per day is doubled, thus, instead of the 190 days, it would be 95 days.
(Side Note, I honestly don't know why they didn't just assign cost multipliers to these material qualities. It would have saved space)
stuff...
Japanese swordsmiths took so long historically speaking because they had to spend far more time working the metal to purify and strengthen it. Japanese iron is low-quality stuff with lots of impurities.
A skilled smith with a moderate setup (tools, a forge, a friend to work the bellows) and a purchased steel billet would not take that additional time to work on the sword. Realistically, a smith dedicated to the creation of a non-masterwork sword could crank one out in a week. Masterwork swords are a little more complicated in that it really depends on how much of a perfectionist and how much detail the artist is putting into the thing (especially since the rules generalize the quality by an arbitrary gp value).
But it's a game mechanic, not intended to simulate real life to the letter so all is moot.
EDIT: And I imagine adamantine is extremely hard to work with in the first place, even the "easily worked" kind. ;D
Exactly. I also have to believe that modern day sword smiths in the real word have learned to correct mistakes or take advantage of techniques that were unknown to medieval smiths. To compare what a smith from today can accomplish to one from the 1500's takes as much adjustment as comparing a modern day smith from our world to a smith from a fantasy world.
Some time ago, somebody wrote a monograph called "Making Craft Work". He pointed out some of the silly things that can happen with the Core crafting rules - like it taking ten times as long to craft a gold ball as it does to craft a silver ball of the same size, because gold is worth ten times as much as silver. I was hoping these new "unchained" crafting rules would address those problems, but they don't. :-(
BTW, that monograph is available here as a pdf download. I don't remember what it costs, but it can't be much, as the thing is only a few pages long.
I have a question about the Variant Multi-Classing (VMC).
The Cleric version "... gains the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists."
Does "appropriate spells" mean having cure spells on their class lists (e.g., Druid, Shaman, Witch, Warpriest, Paladin, Ranger), or does it mean spell levels (i.e., swap out a L 1 prepared spell for a Cure Light Wounds, a L 2 spell for Cure Moderate Wounds, etc.)? If the latter is what is intended, then a Wizard, Magus, and possibly Arcanist could also use this class feature.
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"On their spell list" refers to whether they could prepare that spell under normal circumstances - e.g., the first list. It would also apply to a member of another prepared class who added it to her class list, such as with the samsaran's Mystic Past Life alternate racial trait.
Does that make sense? :)
Yes, thank you. I just wanted to be sure that I was not over-thinking the interpretation. :)
Next question, this time about an unchained Summoner evolution: why is the Mount evolution (1 point; already limited to quadruped and serpentine forms) also limited to just the daemon, demon, devil, elemental, and protean sub-types?
In other words, why are agathion, azata, and psychopomp sub-types not allowed to use the Mount evolution? All three have quadruped and/or serpentine as a base form option. Agathions in particular would be suitable for the Mount evolution, as they take on aspects of a single animal or creature.
(Full discolosure: yes, I want my Summoner eventually to ride her tiger-shaped agathion eidolon, using the Mount and Large evolutions. If it's legal, that is ...)
Also ... I have a question about the unchained Rogue's Finesse Training class feature ("... any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse"). Does this include the elven curve blade and Aldori duelling sword (assuming that one has the appropriate feat)?
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I don't understand how the alternate Craft skill rules help make item creation process any faster.
If, when he takes 10, he gets a result of 30 (a margin of 5) he doubles his rate of crafting. And so on.
I think the intent was to simplify more than to increase the efficiency, and that it does (to my eye). It also greatly increases the rate at which you make simple alchemical items and poisons - low DC and high base rate makes for a happy alchemist.
Now, the really interesting part comes with the 20 ranks skill unlock for Craft. This lets you make magic items using the regular Craft skills. This is cheaper than normal (1/4 instead of 1/2 cost), but as your example shows, it takes a LOT of time. Or it is just a typo, and the reference to "using the normal Craft rules" really means "using the normal rules for crafting magical items".
Edit: Missted that there was another page in the thread. Talk about being ninja'd. Doh!
Debilitating Injury can be ridiculously powerful.
Especially Hampered.
Combined with two feats and a special weapon i´ll most definately make a small character go into a certain prestige class. So looking forward to level 10 there and the faces :D
BTW: What happens when a rogue hits someone who is already hampered with an AoO that would apply sneak attack?
Would the 1 round than be reset to that point of time, effectively not the rogues turn, but the foes turn?
Hitting stores tomorrow!
Finally have my grubby hands on my reserved copy!
The progress with the old system was DC x Die result in cp per day. So DC 25 times Take 10 result of 25 is 625 cp per day or 6.25 gp per day. If you could take 20 for result of 35, then 35 x 25 or 875 cp or 8.75 gp per day.
In the new system, swords are Normal complexity (DC 15) with a flat rate of 2 gp per day. With the Take 10 result of 25, you beat the DC by 10, so triple the progress to 6 gp per day. If you could take 20, for 35, beating the DC by 20, so 5 times the progress at 10 gp per day.
But, that's with regular steel. Adamantine weapons increase the complexity by 2 steps to Intricate, so DC 25 and flat 8 gp per day. Taking 10 would meet the DC 25 on the spot for 8 gp per day, but take 20 would triple it to 24 gp per day.
So, the new process is a bit faster for simple expensive items like Adamantine swords, but is a lot faster for complex items regardless of cost, like clocks and guns.
(then add special raw materials but that's another layer of math)
These are good points.. it is also worth noting that you can have assistants helping you. If 3 of them succeed on "Aid Another" to help, that's a +6 to your check, which means a doubling of the progress rate.
Also, as mentioned, the new system makes crafting a Masterwork Weapon a single process. In the old system, you had to craft the base item first, then work through another crafting process for it to be Masterwork (even though it was flavored as part of the same creation, so you could not add Masterwork to an existing item... hence the Masterwork Transformation spell).
Also, as mentioned, the new system makes crafting a Masterwork Weapon a single process. In the old system, you had to craft the base item first, then work through another crafting process for it to be Masterwork (even though it was flavored as part of the same creation, so you could not add Masterwork to an existing item... hence the Masterwork Transformation spell).
In the guild system that developed in the Middle Ages in Europe a "masterwork" was the thing a Journeyman crafted and presented to his guild's masters as a requirement — if they approved — for elevation to "master" rank.
Personally, I much prefer the weaponcrafting and armorcrafting rules from HarnMaster, but I'm not sure how one would adapt them to Pathfinder since the fundamental assumptions are different.
Hey Mark, not to poke, but uh... gonna poke at you again with this. Is it really intended for disease/poison conditions to only be curable with time/miracle/wish? Or does the above sound reasonable?Oh. You also realize you made it so there's no actual way to fix conditions from disease/poison beyond bed rest? Besides the 25k gold miracle/wish which is a bit overkill imo. They're scary enough without needing to say 'ok you failed a single save against a poison, you can adventure in 2 days or cough up a lvl 17 caster and 25k gold'.
I think making it so lesser restoration can move you up one step on the disease/poison condition track (but not from death obviously), and not curing something like say, the blinding sickness' blinding, would be quite useful. Make it so restoration and greater restoration bring you back to fully healthy (not rezzing you).
Any disease/poison that originally caused ability drain would need restoration for 1 step up the condition track, or greater restoration for going straight back to healthy.However, still needs Remove disease/poison to cure the cause, those just treat the symptoms. Additionally, you'd need to cure any body before you could rez it also.
It's only end states (usually death) that require stronger magics to reverse.
Will you guys be making new character sheets for these new skill options?
I could use some insight on the skill groups section.
In the section, it basically says that you have a number of skill ranks in every skill that is in one of your skill groups that you have not chosen with a skill specialization equal to half of your character level. Profession, Craft, and all Knowledges are part of the Scholarly group. Am I reading it right that if I pick scholarly as a skill group, I effectively get that 1/2 my character level as a bonus in every Profession, Craft, and Knowledge skill?
The bookmarks in my PDF are messed up a bit. For several days I completely overlooked the Stamina/Combat Tricks section because it was nested inside Removing Iterative Attacks as a sub-section. (I navigated via bookmarks, but didn't look at the mostly deeply nested ones.)
My apologies if this was already brought up, or this isn't the place to bring this up, but on page 25 of Unchained, it reads, "When summoned in this way, the eidolon's hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned." However, in the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9oh2), in a response posted September 2011, it says to "change 'unchanged from the last time it was summoned' to 'unchanged from the last time it was dismissed or banished'.
I assume that this holds true for the Unchained version as it did for the APG summoned, but it should be changed for clarification.
Seems to me that this rule means that an eidolon, in his own place, has no means of healing, and no natural healing. That doesn't make sense to me.
Nothing you've said changes my opinion.
Just a quick question: The title of the book includes (OGL). Is that just to denote that it includes some OGL content from other sources? Or does that signify that it contains new OGL content? If it is the latter, will it get added to the Paizo SRD (or any other OGL content site)?
Mostly interested in the nitty-gritty of the skills and crafting rules.
Thanks.
The summoner and the Unchained summoner are two different classes, it is not obvious that the FAQ for the first apply to the second (unless that was already clarified)
It really needs to apply because the original wording has serious problems.
From one end of the spectrum: Your high-level eidolon is rendered unconscious? Un-summon it and summon it again. Voilà! Full hit points!
From the other end of the spectrum: The only exception is if the eidolon is slain, "it returns with half its normal hit points" (Unchained pg 26; same as in the APG). As written, this means that the first time your eidolon is reduced to negative HP equal to its Constitution, the next time you summon it, it has half its normal HP. The kicker is that the next time you summon your eidolon after that, it also has half its normal HP, because that's how many it had "the last time you summoned it". RAW, one death means it's always summoned with half hit points.
I think these two reasons easily justify the FAQ, now as they did originally, and I can't imagine any GM not applying the FAQ to the Unchained summoned.
I really like unchained so far, but the things i will incorporate into my current campagin is just the Background skillsystem.
Otherwise i like the new rogue and monk, skill unlocks and the variant multiclassing even tho i am not sure if i can make it work with half my feats.
Don't know if this is the place to drop it, but I've been a bit annoyed that the Stamina (Combat Tactics) section in Ch. 3 isn't bookmarked in the PDF table of contents. Took me a while to find it at first and makes it more difficult to reference.
That's what I was referring to 10 posts earlier. I hope that they fix it soon!
And what's the word on Variant Multi-Classing rules for the Advanced Class Guide classes? Will they be published or not?
Ditto for classes from the upcoming Occult Adventures.
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And what's the word on Variant Multi-Classing rules for the Advanced Class Guide classes? Will they be published or not?
Ditto for classes from the upcoming Occult Adventures.
They've said that there are no plans to create VMC options for the hybrid classes. They've been more coy about future classes, though... ^_^
Something I just noted; the unchained monk does not have the old monk's prohibition against combining natural attacks and unarmed attacks. Does this mean that an unchained monk who has transformed into a feline with beast shape (such as with a potion) gets pounce with full attack + flurry of blows, and then can use all his natural attacks as secondary attacks?
Suddenly a converted Nimble Guardian seems like a really good idea!
Is this something that needs errata?
Something I just noted; the unchained monk does not have the old monk's prohibition against combining natural attacks and unarmed attacks. Does this mean that an unchained monk who has transformed into a feline with beast shape (such as with a potion) gets pounce with full attack + flurry of blows, and then can use all his natural attacks as secondary attacks?
Suddenly a converted Nimble Guardian seems like a good idea!
Is this something that needs errata?
This has been hashed out several times in different places. You can make attacks with other weapons (such as natural weapons) if you like, but they will never give you additional attacks.
This has been hashed out several times in different places...
Has it been discussed for the unchained monk? I don't recall seeing it in this thread. New playing field, new rules, new errata might be needed.
Has it been discussed for the unchained monk? I don't recall seeing it in this thread. New playing field, new rules, new errata might be needed.This has been hashed out several times in different places...
He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).
This is the clause that stops the Unchained Monk from making natural attacks in addition to the flurry. It's also the same clause that stops a Monk from combining Two-weapon Fighting with Flurry of Blows.
So, basically, any additional attacks not granted from BAB, Flurry, or Haste (and similar effects) can't be taken during a flurry. This includes Two-weapon Fighting, Natural Attacks, Medusa's Wrath; basically anything that grants additional attacks that isn't included in the flurry section doesn't trigger during a flurry.
I'm not sure if this question has been answered. I was browsing through the Stamina section and I saw that the stamina power for Improved Feint doesn't actually do anything. It lets the feat-holder spend stamina to Feint as a move action, even though Improved Feint lets you do just that.
Also, the stamina power for Gang Up also does not actually do anything, based on the current FAQ about counting as your own ally.
I know, I'm probably the only player in the world who does characters that are affected by these sorts of things, but...
Does anyone know whether there been any clarification on these particular stamina powers?
-Matt
Actually, reading and re-reading the unchained flurry of blows, I think the question is answered quite clearly. "When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality." This tells me you can ONLY use unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
This is quite clear. I was wrong.
Actually, reading and re-reading the unchained flurry of blows, I think the question is answered quite clearly. "When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality." This tells me you can ONLY use unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
This is quite clear. I was wrong.
I was assuming one would use one of the various ways to make a weapon be a 'special monk weapon' for the purpose of a flurry.
I just picked up the book today, and browsing through it at my FLGS, I discovered the Crystal Tiara. It is an awesome item, I wonder if it is too powerful, but more importantly, is one of the authors/designers a Frozen fan?
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I just picked up the book today, and browsing through it at my FLGS, I discovered the Crystal Tiara. It is an awesome item, I wonder if it is too powerful, but more importantly, is one of the authors/designers a Frozen fan?
Actually, reading and re-reading the unchained flurry of blows... I was wrong.I was assuming one would use one of the various ways to make a weapon be a 'special monk weapon' for the purpose of a flurry.
Thinking further , if you elect not to make a flurry of blows, could you still make a full unarmed attack and then any natural attacks as secondary weapons? Still pretty impressive.
Also, a potion won't work for this, as it takes Beast Shape II to gain pounce, and potions can only be spell level 3 or lower. An infusion would do the trick. Or a wand with UMD.