-a single cantrip SLA 3/day does not a caster make (and a single level 1 SLA once per day if you invest further still doesn't--even if you use a precious feat to be able to swap them). that's by 3rd level earliest (by spending a feat on ERT (major magic)). if you wanted to be able to change them, you'd need to wait till 5th.You can actually make a highly effective Half-Elf or Elven rogue based around minor & Major magic. The Elven FCB allows you a LOT of uses of Minor & Major Magic, and if you choose Chill Touch for your SLAs, you have a level per use touch attack sneak attack delivery system. One use should be enough to last a combat, and you can easily have 10 uses per day.
Targeting touch AC fixes most rogue accuracy problems.
hmm. you've got a point about the touch thing (were guns not ranged and feat-intensive i'd consider building a rogue for those).
i wonder how that setup'd work with that gillman racial archetype (half-elf can get it via racial heritage(gillman)) for more SLA levels.
The Elven FCB allows you a LOT of uses of Minor & Major Magic, and if you choose Chill Touch for your SLAs, you have a level per use touch attack sneak attack delivery system.
FCB? SLA? Is there a dictionary of Pathfinder related abbreviations somewhere?
The Elven FCB allows you a LOT of uses of Minor & Major Magic, and if you choose Chill Touch for your SLAs, you have a level per use touch attack sneak attack delivery system.FCB? SLA? Is there a dictionary of Pathfinder related abbreviations somewhere?
Try this page: Link.
FCB means Favorite Class Bonus and SLA means Spell-like Ability.
honestly, if paizo doesn't do something pretty spectacular with unchained, rogues are just going into the bin for my games and being replaced with slayer or investigator (depending on whether the player is more concerned with combat or skills, respectively).
monks i'm still kinda on the fence about, since they at least have a few decent archetypes, and one that is broken in PFS and will never get addressed as a source of trouble.
Have you looked into the Talented PDFs from Super Genius Games? I have them all, and while I have not looked at the Rogue ones enough to judge them, the Talented Monk is awesome. Basically, take all the Monk's class features and the archetype class features, plus some new stuff, and put it all on a shelf. The Monk gets edges or a talent every level, and uses those edges and talents to purchase whatever class features on that shelf she wants and qualifies for. It works beautifully. Don't want to use unarmed strike? Never have to invest resources in it. I can focus on quarterstaffs or spears or something else instead. Want magic? I can buy the Qinggong monk's casting. Basically, buy the abilities you like, and skip the bad ones :D So much better than vanilla Monk. Talented Fighter is also really good, incidentally (Especially if the GM is good about converting newer Paizo archetypes over to the system.), and Talented Barbarian makes the class into something much more thematically versatile.
unfortunately that is 3pp, and therefore BADWRONGF--er, not allowed in a great many games.
that and paizo should start learning from and correcting their mistakes, not just saying "whoops, book's too old, can't change it or the old buyers'll whine!". if unchained doesnt at least step in that direction in the final product (regardless of being a non-canon material for PFS), i'll have that small feeling of satisfaction of having called it before quitting pathfinder entirely.
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Things I'd love to see in this book:
* Reworked Invisibility/Stealth/Perception/Lowlight/Darkvision rules that mesh seamlessly together and actually make things like stealth sniping possible.
** Low light vision simplified to "You can see in dim light as if it was normal light".
** darkvision still being sensitive to contrast, so it is still possible to hide in shadows.
** Blindsight/tremorsense reworked to work with Stealth and not just kill it.
* Sneak Attack working against concealment - such as in dark alleys. Overall, sneak attack should be very hard to negate.
* Changes to classes that let them remain what they are and not become entirely new classes. Case in point: if the unchained rogue is so different from the old rogue that it is basically a new concept, the old rogue would still be there and still be underpowered. Anyone who loved the old rogue but hated its weakness would still be suffering.
* If there is a new pool mechanic for martial characters, make it like Grit in that it can recharge during the day. Daily uses on martial abilities just doesn't sit well with me. Most rogue talents should lose their limit on daily uses as well.
* Skill bonus numbers and save DCs don't mix well. A humble suggestion is that a save DC of "10 + skill bonus/2" (and inversely a skill DC of "2*save bonus +10") gives reasonable numbers, and can solve many problems for skills like Intimidate.
* Around level 10-12, Pathfinder play bogs down. I feel three iterative attacks and a vastly increased number of options for all classes are to blame. While options are great, streamlining high level play (particularly multiple attacks) would be great.
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that's a fairly solid list there starfox.
some things i'd love to see:
means to make precision damage (especially sneak attack) more reliable--such as ignoring certain types of concealment (DARKNESS) or a less selfish (play around where MY character is standing or i'll whine about being useless!) or costly (feinting--you didnt need your most accurate attack anyway, exploiting magical cheese--gozmask+obscuring mist, tiny hut, chill touch spam, etc.) method of actually obtaining it.
a more coherent direction for the base monk class--are they supposed to be mobile or not? as the system currently is, mobility and damage (outside of pounce) is mutually exclusive. leading to my next one...
a means of combat mobility available to everyone, not just barbarians/alchemists/summoners--pounce (and it's lesser kin, such as dimensional dervish) is top dog for anything martial. it let's them finally not be kneecapped by the mere thought of moving. this should not be something that only a select few martial classes get. have it use the 'martial pool' or whatever you're going to call it if you're THAT afraid it will break the game (it wont).
some means for a martial to compete on the same scale as a caster in the lategame--when one guy can literally move mountains, birth new worlds, and shake nations with a whim, while the other is doing exactly the same thing that he's been doing from level 1 (move and swing or stand and swing, those are your only choices) with mildly bigger numbers tacked on, there is something incredibly wrong with that picture.
martials should be just as heroic, just as legendary as casters, even if not in the same way. if one can tear a rift in the fabric of dimensions with an errant wave of his hand, the other should be able to cleave a mountain with his sword.
alternate ways to cast spells--MP systems, wordcasting support, ANYTHING else. occult adventures' psychic magic is a step in that direction already with undercasting. expand on such options further.
more means of 'stat to attack/damage' for things like dex, int, wis that arent so needlessly restrictive--it is absolutely silly that you cannot play a dextrous character until level 3-5 AT MINIMUM (1/4 through your career in paizo's favorite houserule game), or someone that uses their wits or experience over brute strength until even later (if at all!)--in a world where your bearded buddy can hurl lightning bolts at dragons.
while 1, 3, and 6 MIGHT be on the table in unchained, the others are but broken dreams.
Whatever it is they're fighting I want one.
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Things I'd love to see in this book:
* Reworked Invisibility/Stealth/Perception/Lowlight/Darkvision rules that mesh seamlessly together and actually make things like stealth sniping possible.
** Low light vision simplified to "You can see in dim light as if it was normal light".
** darkvision still being sensitive to contrast, so it is still possible to hide in shadows.
** Blindsight/tremorsense reworked to work with Stealth and not just kill it.* Sneak Attack working against concealment - such as in dark alleys. Overall, sneak attack should be very hard to negate.
* Changes to classes that let them remain what they are and not become entirely new classes. Case in point: if the unchained rogue is so different from the old rogue that it is basically a new concept, the old rogue would still be there and still be underpowered. Anyone who loved the old rogue but hated its weakness would still be suffering.
* If there is a new pool mechanic for martial characters, make it like Grit in that it can recharge during the day. Daily uses on martial abilities just doesn't sit well with me. Most rogue talents should lose their limit on daily uses as well.
* Skill bonus numbers and save DCs don't mix well. A humble suggestion is that a save DC of "10 + skill bonus/2" (and inversely a skill DC of "2*save bonus +10") gives reasonable numbers, and can solve many problems for skills like Intimidate.
* Around level 10-12, Pathfinder play bogs down. I feel three iterative attacks and a vastly increased number of options for all classes are to blame. While options are great, streamlining high level play (particularly multiple attacks) would be great.
New stealth rules and new precision damage rules would probably make me happiest. You are definitely right.
while 1, 3, and 6 MIGHT be on the table in unchained, the others are but broken dreams....not to put too fine a point on it, but you know this how, exactly?
I don't, I'm just working from past experience. they've already said they're taking a step back/away from the established rules to go some new and hopefully not terrible directions with classes/combat/etc. (rogues/monks, general martial options, etc.), but the things like affecting the overall depth and scale of martials vs casters in the world at large would require a pretty extensive rewrite of a great deal of the system.
they only have so many pages to work with in unchained, and if our wonderful little friend the wordcasting system is any indication, this book and any systems introduced (no matter how in need of clarification/editting after the fact) will likely be a standalone that will never ever be touched again. namely because it doesnt play nice with PFS (which the misguided death of crane wing has shown is a top priority for paizo).
for example on the stealth/precision wishlist item: i'm going to hazard a guess and say paizo'll forget some minor thing that still makes the rogue/sneak attack useless in the dark or against minor concealment, and never get around to fixing it (which would completely miss the entire point of trying to make it more accessible).
I'd certainly love to be proven wrong though.
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While this looks interesting, before I can throw money into my CD drive and hope for the best, I must ask; How much of this will be PFS legal? Anything at all?
We won't know until a month after it's released, unless the PFS folks get advance copies for review. I fervently hope that at least the four classes will be.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is Crossbows and Firearms. They are both a bit wonky and could use some loving in this book.
More wishes - the sky has been officially declared as the limit, so anything below that should be ok. :)
* Unchain feats! Feats with less prerequisites. Feat chains are a nuisance. Anything that forces you to plan several levels ahead is bad. If you want to restrict a certain feat to fighter 12 and other classes BAB +15, do JUST THAT. Don't write elaborate build games. Unchaining feats would also help the fighter (and anyone else with bonus feats) immensely, as fighter could then cherry pick much more and actually get a benefit from their bonus feats. Having analyzed the ranger in depth, this is actually one of the best things about their fighting style ability. Share that joy!
* Sneak attack needs an in-depth reevaluation. Sneak attack is expressed as precision damage, but it really isn't. Sneak attack is a game artifact. Fighters wear down each other guard and become fatigued, hit points make sense to model that. But rogues are lethal, one-stab combatants. That doesn't work with a hp system. Instead we have sneak attack, a metagame thing that allows rogues to partially bypass the hp system in favor of a sneakier approach. The issue is that while the rogue sets up his sneak attack, he has NO effect on the combat. He doesn't shield the mage, he doesn't flank, he does no damage. Sneak attack needs to combine all the effect of the time the rogue spent setting up into one devastating blow, and an attack that lethal would just be too much. So instead we have a small sneak attack that is supposedly quite easy to set up (flanking), but often leaves the rogue in such a vulnerable position he dies. And then we have the über-stab, where a TWF rogue gets to make a full attack and miraculously hits with five sneak attacks in one round - the dream of every rogue which happens maybe once per season. Instead, we get gimmick rogue builds like using a wand of holy ice in a surprise round.
Some suggestions:
** Remove the range limit on Sneak Attack - in all its varieties.
** Make Stealth a more effective means of setting up sneak attack, and above all make Stealth rules CLEARER.
** Give sneak attack some kind of accumulating bonus for time spent setting up.
** Make sneak attacks hit better - a lot better. Compare to the investigator version for how much better.
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is Crossbows and Firearms. They are both a bit wonky and could use some loving in this book.
i would love to see some love for those and other subpar weapons (like the whip)--just streamlining the feat investment to not be so crippling would be a godsend.
i'm also with starfox on the feats thing: unchained feats (actually useful feats without a two-to-four-feat tax) would be spectacular for people who actually rely on them for competence (i.e. anyone who cant cast spells to solve all their problems)
As this is a book of incremental revision, total unchaining of feats is not going to happen. But classes could get feats lists from which they can pick regardless of prerequisites, like the ranger's fighting styles has.
Of course, a total unchaining of feats could be in the "very very very optional rules" section. But I've thought of making that a house rule, and decided not to, so I doubt Pazio will.
And making Combat Expertize a more generally useful feat, especially at low levels (it presently does nothing at all if your BAB is +0), would go a long way towards mitigating feat prerequisites.
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For the record, either me and my players have been using them wrong (and my players are real good at making powergame type characters) or people need to give me real examples but in our games the Barbarian seems fine, the Monk seems overpowered, the Rogue seems fine if played right (if people would play the Rogue as a ROGUE and not a FIGHTER/NINJA/SUPER SAIYAN then I am sure we can leave that be) and, while we have not used Summoner yet, we have yet to see how their spell list is such a problem (we know the Eidolon can be). Their spells are mostly buff spells, that's it. They have almost no damaging spells, if you kill their eidolon, they are dead or have to flee. They can use their Summon Monster ability, but the monsters summoned have poor level scaling and can easily be destroyed by quit a number of spells (Protection from Law/Good/Evil/Chaos, Dispel Magic, and I have seen a few spells that free the summon from control or take control of a summon).So... what you're telling me is that all of the people who play this game have been playing the rogue wrong, and your group has discovered the One True Path for playing a rogue?
Please, teach us your masterful rogue ways, oh supreme master!
Here's an example.
Party is fighting a huge gang of bandits led by a werebaboon barbarian. While the Knight/Cleric, Magus, and Conjurer all are busy fighting enemies on the first floor of the building, the 2nd floor has the majority of the bandits talking on plans to take out the PCs.
The Rogue of the party, a Changeling, shifted into the form of one of the bandits they took out and went upstairs after grabbing some of his equipment. With a series of SKILL checks (Disguise, Bluff, etc.) he led half the bandits out into the nearby jungle where he knew (thanks, again, to skill checks) of wandering carnivores and the bandits were attacked by a pack of deinonychus. He returned back, managed to infiltrate again and got up to the leader before sneak attacking...
So... the PCs kill a common grunt in some gang orginzation, Rogue uses it's Rogue class features to shapeshift into another human, because, you know, all Rogues in the game can do that. Then he uses disguise to persuade a bunch of enemies, again, in the guise of some low-level mook who doesn't even have a name beyond 'Bandit #4', to follow him out into the wilderness that all of the other bandits are acquainted with, right into the path of some g~! d$~ned deinonychus that just so happened to be in the path. Then, using his elite disguise granted by his Rogue powers (and totally not from a racial ability), he manages to sneak up onto a werebaboon barbarian, and gravely injure the barbarian, with, I'm assuming, Sneak Attack. I mean, it's not like the werebaboon BARBARIAN happens to have Uncanny Dodge can is never caught flat-footed or anything, because that would suck if it were true.
I mean, wow. It's sure is a good thing that all of the bandits were absolute morons and decided to follow the orders of some random ass mook in some bandit gang and then decided, "Hey, lets go traipsing around in a jungle where there are some g@@ d@~ned dinosaurs running around! Sounds like a plan! I'll bring the pic-a-nic basket!"
Sounds a lot less, "One True Path to Rogue" and more "GM lets you get away with stupid crap". I mean, hell, if my GM favored my wizard that much, I'd have an infinite loop of crafting and selling magic items right now and would have attained ultimate power by this point.
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Tels, quit holding back. Tell us how you really feel. :-)
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Here's an example.
Party is fighting a huge gang of bandits led by a werebaboon barbarian. While the Knight/Cleric, Magus, and Conjurer all are busy fighting enemies on the first floor of the building, the 2nd floor has the majority of the bandits talking on plans to take out the PCs.
The Rogue of the party, a Changeling, shifted into the form of one of the bandits they took out and went upstairs after grabbing some of his equipment. With a series of SKILL checks (Disguise, Bluff, etc.) he led half the bandits out into the nearby jungle where he knew (thanks, again, to skill checks) of wandering carnivores and the bandits were attacked by a pack of deinonychus. He returned back, managed to infiltrate again and got up to the leader before sneak attacking him and gravely wounding him.
THAT'S what a Rogue should do. Everyone else seems to expect their Rogue to wade into the thick of combat and ninja-slice everyone's heads off before they realize he is there.
I feel like Tels got emotional and was overly harsh on this. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
That said...what part of that plan was helped by being a Rogue? It involved being good at 4 or 5 skills (Disguise, Bluff, Stealth, Knowledge-Nature, and maybe Diplomacy)...one of which isn't even on the Rogue list (Knowledge-Nature) and most of which Rogues aren't encouraged to have the related stat that high by the rules (Charisma. mostly).
A Bard could've done all that, only better (because of higher Charisma and things like Charm Person and Invisibility) and without needing to be a Changeling (Disguise Self being a thing). Ditto Investigator or Inquisitor. Slayer could've done it slightly better, too, due to Studied Target (though they'd have needed to be a Changeling or have a Hat of Disguise).
In short, that's the player succeeding due to cleverness, not any virtue of the Class they happened to be playing. Any class with social skills could've managed it equally well, including Expert or Aristocrat (whose damage would've been worse on the final attack, but that would've been the only difference...and the PC classes listed above likely would've done more damage).
Here's an example.
Party is fighting a huge gang of bandits led by a werebaboon barbarian. While the Knight/Cleric, Magus, and Conjurer all are busy fighting enemies on the first floor of the building, the 2nd floor has the majority of the bandits talking on plans to take out the PCs.
The Rogue of the party, a Changeling, shifted into the form of one of the bandits they took out and went upstairs after grabbing some of his equipment. With a series of SKILL checks (Disguise, Bluff, etc.) he led half the bandits out into the nearby jungle where he knew (thanks, again, to skill checks) of wandering carnivores and the bandits were attacked by a pack of deinonychus. He returned back, managed to infiltrate again and got up to the leader before sneak attacking him and gravely wounding him.
THAT'S what a Rogue should do. Everyone else seems to expect their Rogue to wade into the thick of combat and ninja-slice everyone's heads off before they realize he is there.
I feel like Tels got emotional and was overly harsh on this. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
That said...what part of that plan was helped by being a Rogue? It involved being good at 4 or 5 skills (Disguise, Bluff, Stealth, Knowledge-Nature, and maybe Diplomacy)...one of which isn't even on the Rogue list (Knowledge-Nature) and most of which Rogues aren't encouraged to have the related stat that high by the rules (Charisma. mostly).
A Bard could've done all that, only better (because of higher Charisma and things like Charm Person and Invisibility) and without needing to be a Changeling (Disguise Self being a thing). Ditto Investigator or Inquisitor. Slayer could've done it slightly better, too, due to Studied Target (though they'd have needed to be a Changeling or have a Hat of Disguise).
In short, that's the player succeeding due to cleverness, not any virtue of the Class they happened to be playing. Any class with social skills could've managed it equally well, including Expert or Aristocrat (whose...
Thanks for putting it in better words. The idea behind the plan relies on way to many variables. It requires the guy you disguise yourself to be someone that orders would actually be received from. It requires the people you take with you willing to follow you into a dangerous jungle. It requires said dangerous jungle to produce some creature or encounter that gives the dangerous jungle it's reputation for being dangerous. Then, it requires that same guy to head back and have no one question why he returned without the 'half the group' that left with him.
If they bandits were being led by a werebaboon barbarian surrounded by his minions, why did half the minions just suddenly abandon their leader? Why would the werebaboon even allow it? How was no one even remotely suspicious?
On top of that, none of what was done was completed via being a Rogue. It was done via simply being a character. Bard's, Rangers, Iquisitors, Alchemists, Investigators, Hunters, Slayers... the list goes on of what classes could have succeeded there, the Rogue is only one of them.
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Tels, quit holding back. Tell us how you really feel. :-)
Yeah, I'm sorry for channeling my frustration and anger into that post. I have an ongoing conversation with my Grandmother on Facebook who told my sister she's going to burn in hell because she's a lesbian. Suffice to say my response to my Grandmother has ensured I am most definitely Not on her nice list... probably forever.
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Defending personal identity trumps keeping family happy, Tels.
Respect.
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Thanks for putting it in better words. The idea behind the plan relies on way to many variables. It requires the guy you disguise yourself to be someone that orders would actually be received from. It requires the people you take with you willing to follow you into a dangerous jungle. It requires said dangerous jungle to produce some creature or encounter that gives the dangerous jungle it's reputation for being dangerous. Then, it requires that same guy to head back and have no one question why he returned without the 'half the group' that left with him.
It was a definitely a chancy plan, but not one with a lot of huge risks for a PC, especially one with high social skills (to convince people to do things they might otherwise not)...and it working once seems plausible with good enough rolls/skills.
Some luck is clearly involved, but that hardly makes it inherently a bad plan.
If they bandits were being led by a werebaboon barbarian surrounded by his minions, why did half the minions just suddenly abandon their leader? Why would the werebaboon even allow it? How was no one even remotely suspicious?
High enough Bluff/Diplomacy can explain this, at least in theory. The timeframe might also have been such as he didn't notice they were gone (he was asleep, he was busy, whatever).
On top of that, none of what was done was completed via being a Rogue. It was done via simply being a character. Bard's, Rangers, Iquisitors, Alchemists, Investigators, Hunters, Slayers... the list goes on of what classes could have succeeded there, the Rogue is only one of them.
I feel like making a Ranger or Hunter with that many social skills is tricky and unusual. That aside, I obviously agree entirely. There are a few skills involved, but no actual class features.
Tels, quit holding back. Tell us how you really feel. :-)Yeah, I'm sorry for channeling my frustration and anger into that post. I have an ongoing conversation with my Grandmother on Facebook who told my sister she's going to burn in hell because she's a lesbian. Suffice to say my response to my Grandmother has ensured I am most definitely Not on her nice list... probably forever.
Ooooh, I'm sorry dude. It sucks to have to come into conflict with those close to you with their own intolerance. :(
Congrats on doing the right thing anyway, though.
Well, in other news, Jason announced on Facebook on Friday that this book had just been shipped off to the printer.
So now we play the waiting game ....
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On the subject of rogues, I actually did a fairly large two-part article on rogues on Guidance a few months back, which you can see here (part 1) and here (part 2). For those of you who don't feel like reading 6+ pages of analysis (and I don't blame you if you don't feel like doing so), the summary of my articles is that the rogue has really good burst damage, but few ways of actually making sure that her blows connect to deliver that burst damage. Even in a post-slayer world, the only class that can come close to matching the rogue's burst damage is the ninja, which the later can do a bit better thanks to the ki pool.
Ultimately, I think the rogue's REAL problem shines when people talk about, "Well, you could do that better as X," because the truth of the matter is that all of the rogue's best class features (including talents) are available to other characters. Many archetypes, classes, and prestige classes get sneak attack. At least two other base classes get uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and trap sense and in many cases those other classes can use these abilities to better effect. The rogue doesn't have much of anything that she can call uniquely hers, especially when her intended design seems to be "the most martially inclined of the skill-focused characters."
From what the designers have said about the unchained rogue, I have high hopes for the class. The "sneak attack modifying" abilities will definitely go a long way towards making the rogue a stronger class and help to solidify its niche compared to, say, the bard or investigator.
Well, the book's been shipped, so this is a bit late to suggest: one idea I had to help the martial classes would be to graduate the loss of iterative attacks based on movement, rather than all-or-nothing. Something like: moving between 10' and half your movement loses your lowest iterative, while moving over half is treated as normal (single attack only). Monks could still flurry, losing only one attack in the process when moving. With their enhanced movement, even half movement would be very beneficial.
Vent your spleen? My mind is overcome with a medley of gruesome images after reading your post, now.
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Vent your spleen? My mind is overcome with a medley of gruesome images after reading your post, now.
I have a whole bag of gruesomely descriptive idioms at my disposal. :D
I always wondered what exactly was in the great toothy bag, but gruesomely descriptive idioms wasn't even on my list! :)
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The werebaboon leader was downstairs taking on two of the party members by himself. The Magus went to another part of the inn, went up the stairs there and was taking on a few bandits by himself. The Rogue did what a Rogue does; he infiltrated, used his wiles and skill, and convinced many other bandits that he was their actual friend, he knew the creatures in the jungle nearby thanks to his Knowledge skill, he persuaded the bandits to follow him via lies with his Bluff skill, and they followed him. He snuck away via Stealth and went back.
Right. Like I said, doable...if risky.
That said, Rogues, as a Class, are much worse at using 'wiles and skill' than Slayers, Inquisitors, Investigators, or Bards. Just off the top of my head. All those Classes, unlike Rogues, actually get bonuses to some of that stuff.
Yeah, ok, a Bard could accomplish that. But a Bard is a Rogue/Sorcerer hybrid class. All other classes mentioned are just that, Rogue hybrids. This was accomplished by a pure Rogue and using minimal resources (he used none, even though his UMD is maxed and he had some good magic items of his own).
Okay...the Classes I list could do that, too, and do it better and easier. As for them being 'rogue-hybrids' (which I'd actually argue Bard isn't, nor Inquisitor)...why does that matter?
The point is that they do the Rogue's job better than it does...being similar to the rogue in some ways should be expected.
The Bard would have had to use a spell slot for Disguise Self.
Not if he was a Changeling. And the Rogue couldn't have done it sans resources if he wasn't one. So...this is a benefit of being a Changeling, not of being a Rogue.
All complaints I have ever heard about Rogue is people wanting Rogue to be a Ninja without actually being called out for being a Ninja.
No...it's people wanting to be actually good at the 'Rogue stuff' you list.
Okay, for some people it's wanting to be good at combat, too. Y'know what? All the Classes I list are better at that part as well as the clever, sneaky, stuff.
with book off to printers and what not will we be seeing any previews soon?
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with book off to printers and what not will we be seeing any previews soon?
If we get previews, they'll probably be closer to the book's April release. No point in burning out hype too quickly. If I had to guess, February-ish.
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Class redesigns are all well and good, but what is known about this new action system? That is far and away the most exciting thing on the list.
I just scanned the thread and couldn't find much beyond a reference to "totally messing with the action economy".
So, is there anyone who's been following this closely that can drop some wisdom from a podcast or something? Or is everyone just blinded by the sexiness of class updates?
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Class redesigns are all well and good, but what is known about this new action system? That is far and away the most exciting thing on the list.
I just scanned the thread and couldn't find much beyond a reference to "totally messing with the action economy".
So, is there anyone who's been following this closely that can drop some wisdom from a podcast or something? Or is everyone just blinded by the sexiness of class updates?
SKR posted an action point system they tried out in a Pathfinder session in information on his 5 Moons RPG. Maybe it's based on something similar. This is a link to the Blog post outlining the PF play test system he tried out in 2013. No clue if it's remotely similar btw, but it can't hurt to see what he was trying out...
Link to Five Moons RPG website
Hmm... I messed up the link, but the address is above. And I had to hunt through his blog posts on RPGs to find it. *sigh*
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Thanks Liz!
BTW that action point system is something I wrote on my own, and I have no idea if what they're doing for Unchained is anything like it (I didn't work on Unchained at all).
BTW that action point system is something I wrote on my own, and I have no idea if what they're doing for Unchained is anything like it (I didn't work on Unchained at all).
Thanks. Good to know. And I like your system :)
Whoo! I'm really looking forward to this, particularly for Summoner. I love the class, but it definitely steers you towards the same generic pounce-monster. Really hoping that there are more outsider options than the devil/demon/generic celestial. It'd be fantastic to get some eldritch horror options like qlippoth, or some protean shape-shifting.
Awesome! Thanks, I appreciate the heads up on that. Yet another awesome Paizo product to wait for...
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BTW, has the design team figured out a way to harvest anything from the angry gnashing of teeth, tears of disappointment, and tantrums of despair the release of this book will unleash?
I can't wait to see what they have cooked up!
So those that didn't know, some of the [redacted] abilities for the [redacted] class were discussed at PaizoCon in the seminar with the required NDA. Just saying you should attend this year and try to get in that seminar if they hold it again...